Why the Palestinians thought that a diplomatic confrontation with the U.S. was the way to go is inexplicable. Once again, they overplayed their hand.
Did they really buy into Obama’s rhetoric from 2009 in Cairo, or earlier this year about the Arab Spring? In part, a big maybe, but I don’t think that explains it all.
I think the Palestinians live in a bubble of international yes-men and women, people in international NGOs and organizations who keep telling them that isolating and ostracizing Israel is the way to go.
And perhaps they read columns by Glenn Greenwald and M.J. Rosenberg and others who complain about the “Israel lobby” and use term like “Israel Firsters” and mistakenly think they represent the American people.
And they go to conferences where people use the Palestinian cause for other purposes, with very effective lip service.
At every stage on the international scene, there is a bubble of anti-Israeli venom and propaganda which creates a lack of reality, a lack of willingness to compromise. To put it bluntly, they start believing their own anti-Israeli BS.
There is only one thing which will bring peace and a real Palestinian state: The acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state within militarily defensible borders.
And that is the one thing the Palestinians as of yet are unwilling to give.
Expect violence.
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I think you’ve made it much too complicated.
Take a look at Gaza and the West Bank. Do you see a Palestinian nation there ? I’ve seen better organized Cub Scout troops.
The West Bank is probably way ahead of Gaza, but neither represent a coherent nation, and most especially the two together don’t.
I’m not so sure the Palestinians necessarily want a state. They are like children who are being naughty in order to get attention, even if it’s negative. And what attention they have been getting this week! The whole world knocking on their door, begging, pleading, threatening them not to bid for statehood at the UN; the international media concentrating on them almost to the exclusion of anything else happening at the UN. THAT is what they want. And the attention they get reflects negatively on Israel which gives them a double whammy.
What would they want a state for anyway, if they are refusing to accept Palestinian refugees into it?
They do not want a state for themselves. They want Israel to NOT have a state. In which case all their actions to date, including a diplomatic confrontation with the US, make perfect sense.
You hit the nail on the head, anneinpt. As far as the Arabs in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria are concerned, it’s not what they have. It’s all about taking away Israel. That’s the bubble in which they live. Their own Jew-hatred is greater than their self-interest. With that sort of mindset, it doesn’t matter who says what to them; all they can see is no Israel, no Jews, and that’s what they’ll always gravitate towards because it is validated by the Koran. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
One question that I never heard answered is .. what would constitute the Palestinian nation to be recognized by the UN ?
Would the UN recognize the government on the West Bank or the government in Gaza, or the combination of the two, which could most aptly be described as a “gay marriage of two heterosexual men.”
Most likely the recognized organization by the UN as a Palestinian state would be the Palestinian Authority “technocratic” government that was agreed to between Hamas and Fatah in April.
The thought is that the technocrats will run the “nation” until popular elections can be held sometime next year.
I think those elections unlikely to happen, as Hamas will get creamed due to their bungling of running Gaza, which is why they haven’t held elections since. If Hamas thinks its going to lose, it will throw its standard hissy-fit, say the elections are rigged against them and restart hostilities thinking that they can take the Fatah faction in a fight.
The answer to your question is Israel.
I am just so confused. I can never get this straight. An historian here would be most appreciated. Isn’t JORDAN the Palestinian state? Wasn’t the whole shebang one territory under British rule, the British Mandate of Palestine, and then it was divided into Israel and Jordan. Wasn’t the two-state solution already done?
Give the man a gold star.
1917 to 1922 the British controlled the area that encompasses Israel, the Palestinian Authority and the Kingdom of Jordan.
1923-1947 the British split the area into two administrative districts: “Palestine” and “Trans-Jordan” (not surprisingly, at the dividing line of the Jordan River). Jews were ONLY allowed to live WEST of the Jordan River, in “Palestine” while the Arabs could live in both locations. Trans-Jordan became the Kingdom of Jordan in 1946 under Abdullah I.
November 29, 1947 – UN Partition Plan 181 proposes to divide “Palestine” into a Jewish homeland and a secondary Arab State. The Jewish “Palestinians” accepted, wishing for more, but glad to get anything. The Arab “Palestinians” rejected it outright, demanding the ENTIRE area of “Palestine” as their own.
May 14, 1948 – the Jewish “Palestinians” declare themselves the State of Israel.
May 15, 1948 – Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen invade Israel. Abdullah I of Jordan hoped to annex as much of the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine as he could. The Arab “Palestinians” flee, in order to let the soldiers do the dirty work of exterminating the Jewish Israelis, being promised that they Arab “Palestinians” will be allowed to return and take possession of any Israeli property.
The leadership of ALL of the attacking Arab states were intensely distrustful of any “Palestinian” state which might emerge, as well as each other. Abdullah I wanted to be seen as the main champion of the Arab world. King Farouk of Egypt wanted to prevent that in attempting to set himself up as that role.
When the dust settled with the 1949 Armistice, the “West Bank” area containing Jerusalem was occupied under Jordanian control, and the Gaza Strip was occupied under Egyptian control.
The 1967 6-day war, Israel preemptively struck the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian forces marshaling on its borders, took control of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupied areas, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula.
Some information summarized from the following sources:
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
So, yes. Long answer short, the Palestinian Arabs DID have their own country. It was called Trans-Jordan. But those Arabs were not required to live there. They were then offered a second “Arab Palestinian” country, which the Arabs of Palestine rejected outright.
The Israelis screwed themselves by handing over land to the Arabs instead of drawing a hard and fast line.
Here’s what I don’t get: Why is it a necessity for the Palestinians to give their stamp of approval to the Jewishness of Israel? Has the United States ever recognized any country as a particular kind of state? Did we ever give some kind of official recognition to the USSR as an atheist state? I seem to remember us criticizing that aspect of their method of government. We wanted them to be more accepting of the religiousness of at least a portion of its citizenry. We certainly were aware of that aspect of their state, but nobody ever raised the issue that we had to give it our stamp of approval.
The Palestinians are never going to say that it is OK for Israel to be a Jewish state; one that by its very nature gives at least some preferences to its Jewish citizens over, for example, its Muslim ones.
You ask a difficult question. What, essentially “is” a “Jewish State”. Who is considered to be a Jew, and how. What amount of Jewish Biblical laws must be incorporated into the state laws, and who do they govern (a great many of them ancient and primitive edicts are no longer observed as “law” by the overwhelming majority of Jews around the world.) If the country is a democracy, what happens if the majority of the voting population veers from fundamental Judaism and wants to change the law. (E.g. widespread problem of secular Jews having to leave Israel to be married or divorced.) There are many interesting articles on this. On a look, I found one at http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/465/jewish-state-the-true-constitutional-meaning
The answer to your question [who is a Jew?], just ask Hitler. He and the nazis had it down to a science.
The Bible’s answer to ‘who is a Jew’ is he who is in a faith relationship with the God of Israel. No faith, no Jew.
Please read my answer above to Anon.Y.Mouse. I quote myself:
“What Israel does need is for the Palestinians to recognize and admit publicly that Israel is the Jewish homeland – the nation state of the Jewish people. It is THAT aspect – the nationality part of the Jews (as opposed to the religion) that is so important.”
I don’t see why anything should change and nothing is going to change. Why would you think that it would? The only country in the region where gays and adulterers are not stoned to death, for example, is Israel.
Israel is a secular democracy, but its public calendar is governed by the Jewish calendar and not the Christian one. i.e. the weekly day off is Saturday not Sunday, and we get Rosh Hashana, Pesach and Sukkot as national holidays instead of Christmas and Easter. The major exception is that matters of personal status (marriage and divorce) are governed by religious law, but this is something that is being challenged today.
As I said above, this is being wrestled with all the time. There are proposals (not sure if they have been made into law) to introduce civil marriage etc.
Remember, Israel is a country governed by the (secular, and including Arab members) Knesset and the Supreme Court, not by the Rabbinate. True, the religious parties (and therefore the Rabbinate) have a big say in how things are run because they are part of the political system. That’s democracy for you!
Israel does not want or need the Palestinians’ “stamp of approval” to be a Jewish state. What Israel does need is for the Palestinians to recognize and admit publicly that Israel is the Jewish homeland – the nation state of the Jewish people. It is THAT aspect – the nationality part of the Jews (as opposed to the religion) that is so important. Without admission and recognition of this fact, the war will continue forever because the Jews will forever be considered usurpers in the region.
I rest my case.
“Expect violence.”
Have been for a while.
To recognize Israel/A Jewish state is anathema and a potential death sentence to any practicing Muslim.
For Hamas or Plo to do so would repudiate 50 years of death and destruction and anyone voicing that would soon be dead.
Look an Anwar Sadat. The ONLY arab Muslim to sign a peace treaty recognizing Israel. He was murdered 2 years later.
Hi Professor, re: this topic, have you seen the interesting commentary over at Daniel Greenfield’s Sultan Knish blog…? Mr. Greenfield suggests the end of Palestine could happen. Tid bit:
“…But US foreign policy on Palestine has never been based on any kind of reality. In Washington D.C., they’re certain that Salam Fayyad’s reforms will fix everything. That all Abbas needs is a “modern” police force and the situation will reverse itself. Of course it will not. And any attempt at another election will quickly show why. Meanwhile the refusal to hold elections, exposes Abbas and Fayyad as a sham, a puppet regime without any legal authority.
So naturally in the face of all this, Abbas is declaring statehood. It’s an insane last gamble by a leader with a vanishing base of authority and no real future. Instead of stepping back though, Abbas and Fayyad are playing out their final gamble at the UN.
Abbas doesn’t represent anyone, except the militias and bureaucracy that he pays with US and EU money. His term has expired. He has no legal status for conducting any negotiations. But you won’t read that in the press, which takes great care to blame Netanyahu for delaying negotiations, when in fact it was Abbas who repeatedly rejected direct talks, primarily because they may well end up being his death warrant.
The media and the Obama Administration remain wired into a purely “Blame Israel” mode. One story after another insists that the main obstacle to peace is a few private Israeli homes going up in Jerusalem or Judea and Samaria. It is as if Hamas’ control of Gaza doesn’t exist for them. The elephant in the room armed with rockets and suicide bombers, controlling all of Gaza, might as well be a non-issue, as far as they’re concerned. No one in the media asks when was the last time Abbas won an election. A minor issue that goes to the minor question of whether Abbas is even actually empowered to reach any binding agreements.”
read the rest at: http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/09/end-of-palestine.html
It will be interesting to see if the Palestinians back off from forcing a vote. I believe they will because Saudi Arabia threatened to “reassess” its diplomatic stance with the US were they US to veto the popular vote. As with their announcements that they will be increasing or decreasing their oil production, it is all talk. They up to their ears with domestic alligators as it is so the last thing they need is a public slap down by the US which would feed the Saudi street view that the royal family are American lapdogs.
I believe they will work with the US to persuade as many of those countries who pledged to vote in favor of Palestinian statehood recant to their pledges so that there is no vote or if there is a vote, that it is not the landslide this was heading for. The last thing they want is a vote followed by a veto.
From the inimitable Spengler…
Why Won’t Liberals Listen to Reason?
“The left (and the European left in particular) doesn’t like certain facts because they are dying — literally. The triumph of the secular welfare state in Europe is associated with a catastrophic population decline. Three-fifths of southern Europeans will be elderly pensioners by mid-century. Of course, they’re going to go bankrupt. And Muslim society is fragile, and much of the Muslim world has entered a tailspin from which it won’t recover. The left clings to the magical idea that if only Israel would roll over and die, and validate the illusions of the Muslims, that somehow this horrific future might be avoided.
This is about as rational as the cargo cults of New Guinea after World War II. The sociologist Eric Kaufmann is an enlightened liberal, because he observes that liberalism is a self-liquidating proposition: “The weakest link in the secular account of human nature is that it fails to account for people’s powerful desire to seek immortality for themselves and their loved ones,” he wrote in a recent book titled Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth? Secular liberals don’t have children while people of faith do.”
http://pajamasmedia.com/spengler/2011/09/21/why-wont-liberals-listen-to-reason/?singlepage=true
I do not understand the Palis wanting a “State” as in nation. If they were a nation then all those rocket and sniper attacks would be an act of war, not a crime as they are today. Seein’ as how the Palis can only kill unarmed and unprepared civilians committing an act of war upon Israel would be like putting golf shoes on and stepping all over their own dicks.
Why, oh why do I think of Jackson and Sharpton when I read your post?
What is the idea supporting Palestinian statehood?
Well, according to the NYTimes, it looks like Obama has now bombed out in the UN. Obama Rebuffed as Palestinians Pursue U.N. Seat http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/world/obama-rebuffed-as-palestinians-pursue-un-seat.html
Violence is the inevitable and ongoing future for Israel and the territories as long as the world subsidizes the Palestinian refusal to negotiate in good faith. Cut off all the aid money, and see how fast they run to the table.
Not that they would honor any new agreement more than previous agreements one second beyond they perceive it necessary to do so.