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Rittenhouse VERDICT WATCH

Rittenhouse VERDICT WATCH

Kyle Rittenhouse’s fate now is in the hands of the jury. We will monitor developments.

NEW POST – see here for updated verdict information as of Wednesday —

Rittenhouse VERDICT WATCH: Mistrial With Prejudice?

Prior coverage:

Welcome to our ongoing coverage of the Kyle Rittenhouse trial! This is our VERDICT WATCH post, where we will share any fast-breaking news on verdicts and other events around the jury deliberations which begin today.

I encourage you to bookmark or just leave open in your browser, but you will have to refresh for updates.

Live Stream 
I wouldn’t expect much action, but providing it as a courtesy.

For those who missed the closing arguments, here is the coverage:

 

UPDATES

(refresh page for updates; most recent on top, all times Central time)

5:50 p.m.: Jury going home for the night, no verdict yet.

5:08 p.m.:  Interesting:

4:54 p.m.: Interesting:

4:32 p.m.: Interesting:

3:55 p.m.:  Reports jurors asking for more copies of more instructions, but no verdict yet.

1:13 p.m.:  Relevant history from the LA riots:

12:24 p.m.:  Interesting.

WJIC 805 Privilege: Self-Defense: Force Intended or Likely to Cause Death or Great Bodily Harm

10:28 a.m.: Looks like I’ll be doing a guest appearance on Megyn Kelly’s show today at 12:15 p.m. (central time)

9:30 a.m.: This happened about 30 minutes ago, doing a little bit of catch-up.  Six of the jurors have been randomly coosen to be alternates.  These are jurors numbered 9, 11, 14, 45, 52, 58.  These six alternates will remain at the courthouse until needed.  That leaves 12 jurors to engage in deliberations. And with that, jury retires to consider their verdicts.

The judge also asked the lawyers to stay within 10 minutes of the courthouse, in case the jurors send out questions–those would be discussed in court with the judge and the parties present.

Here’s the selection of the alternates:

Here are Judge Schroeder’s final comments to the 12 jurors before sending them into deliberations:

9:10 a.m.: Here’s the entirety of the State rebuttal, delivered by ADA Kraus:

9:08 a.m.: Here’s a highlight from the State rebuttal by ADA Kraus, wrongly suggesting that a defender is required to suffer actual injury before being privileged to act in self-defense, and that, hey, everyone needs to take a beat-down once in a while.

8:58 a.m.: Here’s the defense closing argument by Attorney Mark Richards:

8:54 a.m.: Here’s the entirety of ADA Binger’s closing argument, both before and after lunch yesterday:

Pre-lunch break:

Post-lunch break:

8:36 a.m.: Highlight from yesterday’s closing argument by ADA Binger, making outright false statements of law–that it’s flatly unlawful to shoot an unarmed man, and that you lose self-defense if you’re the one who brought the gun.

7:47 a.m.:  The jury, still consisting of 18 people, is scheduled to arrive at the courthouse to begin deliberations at 9:00 a.m. CT.  The first thing to be done will be the random selection of 6 of those 18 to be identified as alternate jurors, leaving a core group of 12 primary jurors. The alternate jurors will not participate in deliberations, but neither will they be sent home. Instead, they will be kept at the courthouse in case a replacement is needed for anyone among the deliberating jurors.

Until next time:

Remember

You carry a gun so you’re hard to kill.

Know the law so you’re hard to convict.

Stay safe!

–Andrew

Attorney Andrew F. Branca
Law of Self Defense LLC

Nothing in this content constitutes legal advice. Nothing in this content establishes an attorney-client relationship, nor confidentiality. If you are in immediate need of legal advice, retain a licensed, competent attorney in the relevant jurisdiction.

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Comments


Free Kyle! *
(* with purchase of Kyle at regular price) 🙂

    The Friendly Grizzly in reply to rduke007. | November 16, 2021 at 9:17 am

    That is as bad as, “Save the whales! Collect the whole set!”

      Glad to see you’re back and functioning once again.

        The Friendly Grizzly in reply to UserP. | November 16, 2021 at 9:58 am

        Good morning. I’m using text translation on my laptop computer. It lags a little bit. However, it gives better results than it does using my iPhone. They actually took out a couple of lymph nodes for biopsy and they took a 3 inch diameter chunk out of my hand. All that considered I’m up I’m around I’m feisty and grouchy. In short my usual way! The fork in the road will be when I get the biopsy results. Anyone reading this, keep your fingers crossed!

    DelightLaw1 in reply to rduke007. | November 16, 2021 at 10:18 am

    It’s one thing for the State to try to paint JR and AH and GG as “heroes” (gag me 🤮) but for them to outright lie – countless times – during closing arguments about Points of Law is quite another! Shouldn’t that be disallowed, objected to or something?? They are literally, as officers of the court, bald-faced lying to the Jury!!!

      PhillyWatch in reply to DelightLaw1. | November 16, 2021 at 10:31 am

      Defense raised the issues of prosecutorial misconduct several times…such as the lying, raising the point of Kyle’s exercise of 5 ammendment rights, etc. Also the bald-face misstatement of the law in closing arguments (isn’t the judge responsible for explaining the law to the jury? shouldn’t the Judge have corrected that without needing an objection? by NOT stopping it there and correcting…how bad is that?). Curious to know how solidly this makes grounds for appeal if the jury doesn’t see through it all.

        TallDave in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 10:53 am

        prosecutorial misconduct is now a Democratic plank, they ran on it last year and won a lot of west coast DA slots (e.g. Chesa Boudin)

This case is not just about Kyle but all of us and the 2A. If Kyle is convicted of something, then the self-defense argument is weakened; therefore, weakening the 2A.

Pray not only for Kyle but for the entire country.

Hope the jury is out less than an hour. However, I suspect they’ll have a verdict before lunch then hold out until after lunch to deliver it.

    It just takes an hour to elect the foreman. If it is today any time, that would be good.

      The Friendly Grizzly in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 10:28 am

      That brings up a point I’ve often pondered: how does the jury itself elect a foreman? Do the judges or the attorneys have anything to do with that? I doubt it, but felt I should ask anyway.

        AFAIU, they just take a vote in the jury to elect a foreman. Foreman is the one that reports to the judge, otherwise I don’t think he’s any more important than any other member of the jury.

          VioletJanes in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 12:40 pm

          He is more important because he is perceived by the other jurors as a leader capable of guiding them through deliberations. Tribal, hive mind, what have you.

          buck61 in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 1:45 pm

          I was a jury forman, while everyone has pretty much equal say, the rest of the jury looked toward me for leadership, keep the peace and try to guide the ship about what topics are discussed. With a group of 12 you will find just as in society, one or two leaders emerge, a group in the middle and a group who will defer to everyone else with ease. These people have been together for two weeks now, after the pool was cut down to 12 it was probably easy for them to select a foreman. The curveball would be the natural leaders not making the final 12 and someone else would have to emerge. Spending hours of time outside the courtroom, learning about each other you get a sense of who has the capability to be the leaders.

        When I was in a jury, we didn’t even have a clue until one juror (also my friend from high school) said he was a foreman at an earlier trial. Obviously, we elected him foreman. In my instance, the foreman was the one who filled out the jury instructions once we concluded deliberations, responded with the verdict. It’s not that big a deal.

          always wonder how often the foreman stands up and announces “OK I’m the foreman and I’ve decided he’s innocent” and everyone else just looks at each other like “whatever fine we just want to go home”

          LibraryGryffon in reply to SeiteiSouther. | November 16, 2021 at 12:53 pm

          That sounds like what I remember from the two juries I’ve sat on. I was chosen as the foreman for the first. I filled out the paperwork (checked the box for what the verdict was) and signed it. In our case the judge read the verdict out (defendant’s verdict in a malpractice trial).

        Juries, like most committes, have the following members of the “Tater” family on them. You might recognize them. You have Dick Tater. Agi Tater, Imi Tater, Speck Tater, Hesi Tater, and commen Tater. If you have ever been on a committee, you will recognize them.

      tbonesays in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 11:53 am

      It is good etiquette to refrain from objecting to the opening or closing argument, it is not a rule.

        PhillyWatch in reply to tbonesays. | November 16, 2021 at 12:12 pm

        then it’s ever more compelling when two objections at closing are not just flat out overruled…but end up in twice removing the jury and ultimately having the judge give a statement to the jury.

      VioletJanes in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 12:36 pm

      It takes a few minutes to elect a foreman. The rest depends on how capable that foreman is and his bent.

    audax in reply to Smooth23. | November 16, 2021 at 9:45 am

    Is Asian food on the menu again today?

    IMO- If they adhere to the facts and the law, he’s acquitted. If they judge him for being there in the first place or any other prosecutor nonsense such as provocation, I think it’ll be a hung jury.

    There’s a segment of society who feel compelled to put themselves in harms way, who run towards danger rather than away from it. Whether or not one of those persons is in an official government responder role, the military, or not; they SHOULD be honored for that bravery, not prosecuted. If not for these persons, where would our military, police, and firefighter/medics come from?
    Kyle is cut from the same cloth, just without the official badge. If he was an undercover cop and acted in the same fashion, he likely would not be facing such a heinous prosecution.

    You might be assuming the food is edible….

I think the trial should result in not guilty verdicts on all counts. I worry that the jury will be unduly influenced by fear of even more riots and looting in Kenosha.

TaxPayingPatriot | November 16, 2021 at 9:41 am

Figuring unless they have to go in order, someone takes the lead and asks where there’s not agreement. The Grosskreutz-related charges should be easy to dismiss, which leads into the broader question of whether there’s any disagreement on self-defense. While prosecution wants to suggests you can one-off this, you really have to consider the broader scenario – surrounded by people who want to kick the crap out of you. It’s not a mano-a-mano with one punk, it’s him and a dozen creeps surrounding you, who are not in the stills or video (e.g., not a 360 view).

    Formerly known as Skeptic in reply to TaxPayingPatriot. | November 16, 2021 at 10:33 am

    This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about especially as it applies to the second location. You might be able to argue that a jump kick or skateboard to the head is not a lethal threat in and of itself, but with that crowd after him KR would certainly have been in fear of his life if he were incapacitated. I would have to say that is a factor in assessing the threat he faced. I’m surprised the Defense never pointed that out.

      WickedCommonSense in reply to Formerly known as Skeptic. | November 16, 2021 at 12:04 pm

      Your overall point is sound, but I am not sure you fully understand blunt force trauma and how deadly it can be, especially when used on someone’s head.

        I may be mistaken, but even if Huber swung the first time and completely missed it’s irrelavent. It’s (the skateboard) a deadly threat and it’s imminent so Kyle is privileged to defend himself under law. No crowd needed either. That he was running…no, staggering…. from the crowd just shows he was trying to avoid further confrontation, but they (Huber, jumpkick man, Grosskreutz) caught up with him.

        Formerly known as Skeptic in reply to WickedCommonSense. | November 16, 2021 at 2:43 pm

        Sorry if I was unclear. I personally do believe that a skateboard (or boot) aimed at the head is indeed a deadly threat, I was merely saying that you could make that case (some people will believe that it is not). My point is, that even if a jury member didn’t believe that it was a deadly threat in and of itself, in that context even being dazed or knocked unconscious is a potentially lethal threat.

      The day before a crowd had beaten an old man nearly to death, so it’s definitely a thing.

    LetsGoBrandon in reply to TaxPayingPatriot. | November 16, 2021 at 10:52 am

    If they elected me foreman, my first question would be who agrees that this was self defense on all counts? If I get 12 hands, we’re done. If not, I would go count by count to see where we needed to talk.

The national guard isn’t standing by for the verdict because of people like us. No one is scared of how honest, ordinary Americans will react; However, the left has leverage over the jury because of implied personal threats (such as the unpunished recording of the jurors) or threats to burn the city (like the past 18 months).

What do *we* do if justice isn’t served? If our right to self defense is nullified? Certainly that’s what’s at stake. If even ample footage can’t save Kyle…

We might say “Aww shucky darn,” put our heads down, and hope to God we don’t end up in Kyle’s shoes.

But what recourse do *we* have?!

    LetsGoBrandon in reply to frysauce. | November 16, 2021 at 10:53 am

    Not saying this will be the trigger, but at some point, those honest, ordinary Americans will have had enough with the tyranny, then what?

      generic Congressional vote swings the other way

      unfortunately that may no longer be enough given that Democrats now control not only nearly all non-governmental institutions, but also the entire bureaucracy of governance — FBI, IRS, CIA, FDA

      Deep State is transnational now, as much Fauci and Shi killing tens of millions as it is Page and Clinesmith committing rank treason

      Not riots. Those are mostly just stupid lefty tantrums that only continue because the State tolerates them.

      Against factions the State opposes, they’ll just roll out tanks and squish them.

      For one thing, we must stop tolerating people who cower in fear of reprisal whether they be judges, jurists, prosecutors or defense attorneys. We all have a duty to do the right thing as righteous human beings. If we are only capable of doing the right thing when it is the easy thing to do, we deserve the threats and scorn that go with it. Weakness is provocative. Yes, I understand. We are not the jurors. They are. And they have a duty.

      If our freedom is that flimsy and ephemeral, we don’t deserve to be free. PERIOD! We ALL must be prepared for the sacrifice it will take to win. As I like to say, if there is nothing in your life you aren’t willing to risk your life for, maybe you have nothing to live for. We all need to be looking hard at our list of personal values for those few values we are willing to risk dying for. If there is nothing there, go hide in the corner of a dark basement with the screaming women and children and wait for the noise outside to stop. You are just in the way.

    Gosport in reply to frysauce. | November 16, 2021 at 1:40 pm

    In an interesting coincidence, the National Guard consists to a large degree of 17 year olds… with guns.

    The difference of course being that the authorities didn’t have the integrity and/or balls to call them out during the riots in question, the citizenry had to provide them directly.

So Andrew, is prosecution (especially in rebuttal, when there is no one following them) allowed to flatly lie on the matter of law, with no objection from anyone? That seems a bit…. unfair?

    GWB in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 9:51 am

    This was my question. I know closing arguments the lawyers have a LOT of leeway, but is lying about the law under which you’re trying to convict this guy actually allowed?
    Shouldn’t that result in a mistrial?

      LetsGoBrandon in reply to GWB. | November 16, 2021 at 10:54 am

      Or at the very least a brutal smackdown by the judge in front of the jury to correct the error.

        OldCop876 in reply to LetsGoBrandon. | November 16, 2021 at 3:36 pm

        I spent some time as a Circuit Court Bailiff many years ago in Virginia. My particular judge would interrupt a lawyer on either side if they tried to tell a jury “what the law says”. He would sternly tell them, “I am the only person in this courtroom who gets to tell the jury what the law is. You are only allowed to argue about what happened in this case.” That probably kept the lying in check fairly well.

    I would (as a non-lawyer) think that keeping track of the prosecution’s lies throughout the trial would allow you to hammer them at closing:
    -The prosecution lied when they claimed during opening remarks that….
    -The prosecution lied during questioning of Witness x when they claimed…
    -The prosecution lied during questioning of Witness y when they claimed…

    Repetition helps influence opinion. That’s why the prosecution produced their little pixelated Minecraft-like picture and claimed it really meant something totally different than all the witnesses and video said. By repeating their interpretation of the fuzzy thing over and over, they gave it a Rorschach-like vibe until people really believe it is what it is not. Repeating the truth in closing by pointing out the lies in a measured, repetitive fashion should work much the same, but for good, not evil.

      But that is my point. These lies were in prosecution’s rebuttal, which was not followed by anything so they could not be “hammered” or just reacted to by the defense.

        Gosport in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 1:45 pm

        The defense could have objected to them even during rebuttal.
        But they know the jury aren’t idiots and would recognize many of the lies/misstatements of law so may have followed the classic ‘never interrupt your opponent while they are screwing a pooch’ technique.

      OldCop876 in reply to georgfelis. | November 16, 2021 at 3:47 pm

      The legal profession likes to take care of its own. For that reason, an attorney cannot typically tell a jury that the other side’s attorney “lied”. In fact, you are usually prohibited from making any sort of personal attack on opposing counsel, unlike what is often seen on television and in movies.

      So you usually have to say something softer and more polite, like, “Learned counsel for the prosecution is mistaken about the law on this point”, or “the prosecutor has mis-stated what the evidence shows.” You might get away with saying that opposing counsel is “being misleading”, depending on the judge’s feelings on courtroom decorum.

      This is probably a hold-over from a time when attorneys were presumed to be gentlemen.

    TaxPayingPatriot in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 9:57 am

    The risk is always that the jury of ‘peers’ has some persons who walk the majority – that is, of average or even less than average intelligence. But that doesn’t mean they think differently on self defense. I stopped watching, but wonder if they worked the leftist mantra a bit … sure Kyle had one of those scary looking rifles. The dreaded AR, and it had ‘full metal jacket’ ammo. BFD. But the criminal the city pardoned and is entertaining a 10 million dollar lawsuit with had an even scarier handgun. Concealed. With a valid permit. Couldn’t remember if it was loaded (ah huh), or what was in it.

    I just hope they’re thinking clearly. You can’t protect your city if government won’t enforce the law. Acquittal or Guilty. Either way, the goons are going to rampage while the cops eat doughnuts and ‘monitor’ for their overtime pay. I highly doubt the governor or local mayor says ‘go in there and zip tie and arrest every last person acting out’ …

    fast182 in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 10:03 am

    It’s unethical, but it’s up to his lawyer to object, which they failed to do many times throughout the trial.

      I am asking Andrew (since he’s the authority on this here) if the defense *could* object to prosecution’s blatant lies on the matter of law in their presentation.

    PBM in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 12:05 pm

    I wonder if the judge didn’t allow the prosecution to lie to give him grounds for a directed verdict should the jury convict, his preference being for the jury to have a chance to acquit.

    I would think the lies plus the obvious attempt to withhold exculpatory evidence by not serving the Grosskreuz subpoena (with the implication of witness tampering) would give ample justification for a directed acquittal with prejudice should the jury convict.

ISSUES FOR APPEAL

If Kyle is convicted – he has many legitimate issues for an appeal. I think any guilty verdict has a high probability of being overturned.

    Part of the problem is that a judge, and jury, are probably all too well aware of this fact. This gives them a space in their conscience in which they can do the cowardly thing, so as not to become a target for the media/Antifa mob, yet justify it to themselves that someone in an appeals Court will correct thing, so they won’t really be doing Kyle an injustice. Or course we know that’s a morally indefensible position; yet I see trial judges do it all the time (I’m a trial lawyer)

    PhillyWatch in reply to Ben Kent. | November 16, 2021 at 10:57 am

    If so, I hope he continues to get support so as to provide the resources necessary to fun his legal ‘team’. I’d be confident the DA will continue to heavily fund their effort to preserve their political victory, no matter how pyrrhic it may be ultimately.

It sure seemed to me that the PERSECUTORS intentionally committed a lot of lies and deception in the whole trial !

Doesn’t anyone in that courtroom know about blue guns for demonstration purposes? Good grief.

And I think this case is a good example of what could happen if you let the other guy get to the police first. Kyle did nothing wrong, but things could have been different if he had been the first one to call 911 and immediately claimed that “he was attacked, was in fear for his life, and he had to shot to stop the threat”. Could he have been considered the victim from the onset? Perhaps the prosecutor would have taken the same path, but maybe not.

    Think38 in reply to fast182. | November 16, 2021 at 10:11 am

    Video shows Kyle trying to get to the police. Between the attacks, Grosskreutz asked him (and filmed) where are you going? To get the police was the answer. Even after the shootings, he attempted to surrender to the Kenosha police. They pepper sprayed him.

      Sad that the government made the police officers, with years of training, equipped out the yazoo, on overtime and probably hazardous duty pay, ride around in armored vehicles in a “show of force” as if in a parade but not really stopping any rioting, looting, or burning. City/State should be thanking Kyle.

      fast182 in reply to Think38. | November 16, 2021 at 1:33 pm

      Oh I agree completely that Kyle did nothing wrong. He tried to surrender to the police. But the fact remains that Kyle appeared to have fled the scene, which is usually a sign of guilt. It probably didn’t help his legal situation, although of course there may not have been another choice.

      I only bring this up for general consideration, that we should all think about what we would do if we had to use force in self-defense. If you show your gun and the criminal runs away, do you still call the police? If not, could the criminal call them and accuse you of threatening them, and he could be classified as the victim and you as the aggressor?

    A Thinker in reply to fast182. | November 16, 2021 at 10:17 am

    I was thinking a simple chamber flag . . .

      Capsaicin_Addict in reply to A Thinker. | November 16, 2021 at 11:00 am

      I’m rather surprised it wasn’t fitted with one.

      TargaGTS in reply to A Thinker. | November 16, 2021 at 11:29 am

      I’ve been on a jury when weapons were in evidence. Those weapons all had come kind chamber lock; IIRC, the simply had a piece of thick, coated wire run through the chamber and magazine well then closed on the open ends with a seal.

    I’m sure they used the actual gun to create more drama, because it’s black and scary…

    Gosport in reply to fast182. | November 16, 2021 at 1:51 pm

    Given that what the prosecutor did with that weapon is potentially a criminal offense in Wisc (reckless endangerment) I’m sure the Judge would have stopped it had anyone known what an incredibly dangerous and stupid thing Binger was about to do.

The biggest gaslighting going on today is what I would call “Bothsides ism.” Today on Fox radio some commentator complaining about how if there are riots it will be because of media distortions on “both sides” –then giving several examples of how the media has lied or implied against facts establishing self-defense, but no distortion on facts exonerating Kyle.

No, it’s not “both sides” who are responsible for a distorted impression of the trial, but ONE side that is screaming for a conviction to appease the mob, and to reinforce their prejudices and narratives of armed “white supremacists” as a supposed threat to the country.

Occasional Thinker | November 16, 2021 at 10:13 am

During his closing Binger brought a rifle to his shoulder, placed his finger inside the trigger guard, and waved it around an occupied court room. He, like Alec Baldwin, took the word of someone else and did not check the chamber himself, violated a basic firearm safety rule of not pointing a gun, loaded or unloaded, at anything you are not willing to destroy, violated a basic firearm safety rule by placing his finger on the trigger before being on target and ready to fire. This seems to be negligent endangerment, one count for each person swept while he had the rifle at his shoulder. Can the judge have felony charges brought against him for this at the conclusion of the trial? At the least have him disbarred?

    Unfortunately….he did have a firearms expert clear the weapon so it wouldn’t work. But yeah, it annoyed me seeing both him and Richards put their finger on the trigger as they demonstrated. Part of basic range safety I got knocked in my head just a bit way to often in familiarization at basic training. The irony of that action and what happened on the ‘Rust’ set just to rich right now, though.

      TallDave in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 10:50 am

      ironically they’d have charged Kyle for a felony if he’d done the same thing, cleared or not

      civisamericanus in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 10:52 am

      I don’t care if the country’s foremost firearms experts cleared the weapon–you NEVER take another person’s word for whether a firearm is safe. Remember that somebody also allegedly told Alec Baldwin the gun he was handed was “cold” and we saw what happened there.

      Very few people are killed accidentally by guns whose handlers know them to be loaded.

      Occasional Thinker in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 1:52 pm

      Well he had a cop check it and if you have spent much time around LEO’s you know firearms knowledge is a toss up. I have safed 1911’s at scenes before because the police on the scene had never handled one.

    I saw binger demonstrate how not to handle a firearm also. Unfortunately (humorously: in a head shaking way) Richards during closing also asked for the weapon and the Detective handed it to him – Judge: “Did you check that weapon ?” Richards: “The Detective did.” Judge: “Give it to him. Let him do it again.” … Straight out of the “what should have been ‘Rust’ set.”

    Separately, I was looking for a place to share the Jury Instructions (too many side conversations):

    https://www.wgtd.org/news/rittenhouse-jury-instructions-released

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PJMfyOxax1Y2NuuytbmyDJJVMg9e2GY7/view

A bit of a curve ball question, forgive me, but has anyone obtained the National Guard’s or local LEO rules of engagement statements if things turn bad later? Would be nice to find out if the guard showing up is just for show or if they are really meaning to keep the peace.

Man, would it suck to be one of the reserve jurors. Can’t talk about the case – just sit and stare at each other until there is a verdict.

Praying for you Friendly G and praying for Kyle too!

I didn’t hear anything about the Judge ruling on the defense’s motion for mistrial with prejudice. Did he, or is that still out there in limbo?

    Smooth23 in reply to KivPanther. | November 16, 2021 at 10:28 am

    He mentioned yesterday that he would address that motion after the verdict ‘if needed’

    From WI laws:

    “Motion for directed verdict. A party who has made a motion for directed verdict or dismissal on which the court has not ruled pending return of the verdict may renew the motion after verdict. In the event the motion is granted, the court may enter judgment in accordance with the motion. “

      PhillyWatch in reply to Terr. | November 16, 2021 at 10:50 am

      Based on all I’ve read of Schroeder, he’s not likely to grant it. He’s a firm believer in letting the jury decide based on the evidence presented. If he was going to do something extraordinary he would have granted mistrial after the prosecution’s attempts to get around his rulings and bringing up exercise of 5th ammendment rights.

        civisamericanus in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 10:54 am

        Maybe Schroeder wants to let the jury do the right thing but, if he actually got twelve people stupid enough to buy what Binger & Co. are selling, he might overrule a guilty verdict.

          PhillyWatch in reply to civisamericanus. | November 16, 2021 at 11:08 am

          I understand there is a bailiff in the room as the jury deliberates. Does he report back on the deliberations? Does the judge get involved if the deliberations start down the wrong path? These ARE after all lay people so expect that sort of thing. If the deliberations indicate the jury is basing their decisions on speculates that should clearly raise doubts of reasonableness is it something he should consider? After all, Binger gave them a massive amount of speculation…computer assisted speculation, in fact, with conjured pixels in a picture.

          He would never do that Imagine the outrage.

          This judge obviously thinks Kyle isn’t a bad guy. That was evident from day when the judge went and sat down to watch the videos on the TV. Kyle was right behind him, almost like grandpa sitting and watching TV with his grandkids. The judge had ZERO worry that he was going to get attacked by the supposedly dangerous murderer who was within a foot of him and uncuffed.

          PhillyWatch in reply to civisamericanus. | November 16, 2021 at 11:28 am

          Do you think he’d have sat there with Rosenbaum at his back through the videos?

          That is my feelings about it.

          If he were to grant it now, there would be uproar. At least now he’s giving the jury a chance to decide and to come to the right decision.

          If they some how manage to convict then the judge has the law on his side to overturn the verdict.

Has Kyle been in custody since the trial started?

A person who is “unarmed” (not like the 3rd attacker 😀 ) can’t harm or kill another?

In 2020, people killed by the “unarmed” numbered 662.
The same year, 455 people were killed with rifles.

If ADA Kraus knows Kenosha so well, why did he just have to Google directions to Krispy Kreme?

BLM rioter: give them “space to destroy,” drop charges

teenager who shows up because Democrats won’t call in the National Guard and local businesses are begging for help: vigilantes will be sent directly to jail, charge with everything we can including things we know aren’t illegal or didn’t happen

before Jan 6: BLM riots are not based on innumerate racial conspiracy theories and race hustlers ginning up outrage but represent real issues that need change, and anyways you’d need F-15s and nukes to oppose the gov’t, all charges should be dropped

after Jan 6: guys we were thisclose to losing the republic, we’d all be bowing down to King Buffalo Viking Guy and his band of unarmed vote fraud protesters if not for the heroic actions of the Capitol Police — none of these EXTREMELY dangerous grandmothers and high school students can EVER be let out of jail or America will fall

I saw a meme with two photos – One with Kyle carrying the AR15 on that night and one with binger pointing the rifle at people in court with his finger on the trigger.

I noticed the scope has been removed. Who removed that and why? Has anyone heard?

7 women 5 men on jury. Kyle had to pick the standby jurors himself in the lottery. Wisconsin is Bat Country.

    Smooth23 in reply to Elzorro. | November 16, 2021 at 10:54 am

    4 or 5 white males. High likelyhood of someone with some firearm knowledge. 7 women, likely at least one has experienced abuse and wished they could shoot their attacker. Kyle walks.

      TallDave in reply to Smooth23. | November 16, 2021 at 11:47 am

      rural vs urban is now the great American 2A cultural split

      as Kyle I’d prefer cowpokes over city slickers more than any other factors

      suburbs can go either way

      live nearby but not sure what the jury pool looks like geographically

    civisamericanus in reply to Elzorro. | November 16, 2021 at 10:59 am

    All it takes is one juror who knows anything about armed self-defense, e.g. having read Massad Ayoob’s In the Gravest Extreme (I recommend this book highly) to at least hang the jury–and also to point out that Binger pointing the rifle at people in the courtroom shows he knows nothing at all about firearms. I sure hope Binger doesn’t have a WI carry permit.

    Yes, the magazine was out but how do I know there is not a live round in the chamber when this jerk lets the muzzle point at me with his finger inside the trigger guard? Even if the chamber is open to show that it is empty, this is still something one does not do.

    PhillyWatch in reply to Elzorro. | November 16, 2021 at 11:23 am

    Hate to stereotype….but I have to think a women is way more likely to share the visceral feeling of the threat of a man chasing them across a parking lot and lunging at them.

      TallDave in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 11:49 am

      probably why state argues he shouldn’t have been there

      never mind the same argument applies to joining the Marines

      if you don’t have that sheepdog mindset, it’s easy to see Kyle as a troublemaker

        PhillyWatch in reply to TallDave. | November 16, 2021 at 12:41 pm

        I tend to agree he probably should not have been there, and I’m fully aware there are a lot of 17yo’s in the marines…army…doing very similar duties. but this was a very loose knit group, kyle was obviously (in my mind) more interested in helping (putting out fire, offering aid) and that meant getting close to the crowds instead of hanging back. I feel he rather naively allowed himself to get too far away and that made himself an easy target for the Ziminski/Rosenbaum ambush to take place. But NONE of that matters: Ziminsky started it by discharging his firearm (gonna scare anyone into running in retreat if you can) and Rosenbaum who chased him for 10 seconds, throwing a bag full of… what… and then lunged. I have to think any average, rational person should see a bit of terror in that. But a woman? Who understands more than most men the disparity in upper body strength?

      EdSeventen in reply to PhillyWatch. | November 16, 2021 at 2:09 pm

      Or sympathize with the victims as they did not have “dangerous weapons.”

It’s 10 am CDT. If the not guilty-self defense verdict doesn’t come in soon, KR is in for decades in the cooler

    TargaGTS in reply to EdSeventen. | November 16, 2021 at 11:43 am

    A lot of seasoned criminal defense lawyers believe that quick jury verdicts generally don’t bode well for the defendant (look at Chauvin). I’ve always thought that to be counter-intuitive. But, that’s not the prevailing opinion among pros. Of course, every case is different and there are exceptions to every rule, so….

      traderjoe91 in reply to TargaGTS. | November 16, 2021 at 12:02 pm

      You never really know what a jury is up to. If I was on that jury I would probably suggest waiting a couple of hours before delivering a verdict, even if everyone had already decided.

      In reality the more time that passes the more I anticipate a hang.

The alternate jurors will not participate in deliberations, but neither will they be sent home.

Wow, Worst of both worlds. It would really chap my hide if I had to sit through all the rubbish of this trial and then not even be a real juror.

    PhillyWatch in reply to tom_swift. | November 16, 2021 at 11:15 am

    What’s even worse…if one of the jurors says something to get themself dismissed and call in an alternate. They have to start deliberations all over again. That has to color the forthrightness of those doing the deciding since by now they all just want to be at home and away from all this.

    EdSeventen in reply to tom_swift. | November 16, 2021 at 1:39 pm

    Thought the same when Richards asked for that. That’s a bit of a misery as deliberations might take hours

    darwin in reply to tom_swift. | November 16, 2021 at 5:11 pm

    If they were allowed to go home, the press would be asking them what they thought and that would be all over the news for the jurors to see tonight.

I noticed that the protesters are already gathering around the Kenosha County Courthouse. Any chance they can be heard inside the jury room?

They can look out at windows and see it

    richtrue in reply to gonzotx. | November 16, 2021 at 11:05 am

    That can’t be good.

      Arminius in reply to richtrue. | November 16, 2021 at 2:57 pm

      If there are windows, this is a good thing. The Antifa/#BLM crowd is now telling the jury that their mobs aren’t the selfless heroes the prosecution tried to paint them.

      They’re reminding the jury that the prosecutor lied when he told them that. Which should prompt their memories about all those other lies.

    PhillyWatch in reply to gonzotx. | November 16, 2021 at 11:11 am

    But are there windows in the deliberation room.

I’m curious about something if anyone knows the answer…

Since the judge dismissed the curfew violation because the curfew was unlawful, and the judge dismissed the weapon-possession violation since Kyle was not in violation of the statute in question, then how was it “fair game” for the prosecution to argue in closing that Kyle wasn’t supposed to be there (curfew violation) and that he had a gun he wasn’t supposed to have (weapon possession violation). It seems to me that the jury will get the impression that Kyle got off on those charges due to some technicality, which they may hold against him in deliberations.

Isn’t that reversible error for the judge to allow those points to be made in closing?

    Elzorro in reply to ackbarsays. | November 16, 2021 at 11:32 am

    Eight Angry Men: Jury Sent Home After Alleged Brawl During Deliberations

    It is not clear what is more interesting the legal problems in the trial over Merck’s osteoporosis drug Fosamax or the alleged assaults occurring in the jury room during deliberations. United States District Judge John Keenan in Manhattan was forced to issue the novel “time out” order this week and send home the eight men and women on the jury after lawyers heard yelling from the jury room and a juror alleged that she had been physically threatened and had a chair thrown at her.

    Smooth23 in reply to ackbarsays. | November 16, 2021 at 11:36 am

    But it wasn’t dismissed cause it was unlawful. It was actually dismissed because the prosecutor provided no evidence that Kyle actually violated it, and said the fact that there was evidence that a curfew was in place simply wasn’t enough.

    TargaGTS in reply to ackbarsays. | November 16, 2021 at 11:40 am

    It would only be reversible error if the judge failed to sustain an objection made by the defense. If the defense doesn’t object, the judge isn’t (generally) obligated to correct the prosecutor (there are some exceptions).

    With respect to the exact words Binger used, unless he said it was ‘illegal’ for Kyle to be there or to have the weapon, even if the defense objected, that objection would likely be (correctly) overruled. Both side are allowed some rhetorical space to make their arguments. Generally, it’s only when an advocate cites facts not in evidence or misstates the law, will objections be sustained.

    Having said all that, there were several instances when Binger did just that and the defense didn’t object for reasons that are only known to them.

    Based on other commenters, if they somehow convict him on anything, there are multiple grounds for appeal,

Jury Deliberation are why my hair used to be prematurely grey

I once had a juror tell us “we knew you were waiting on us, but we had been waiting on y’all all week”

I wonder if the jurors feel threatened by the protesters outside. It would be quite ironic if the fear of the mob would compel the jury to find someone guilty in a self-defense case.

    Elzorro in reply to richtrue. | November 16, 2021 at 11:50 am

    So far only a few. One white guy is by himself yelling Black lives matter across the street. Maybe the democrats called off their ground troops cause of bad optics.

Mark McCloskey and wife are outside courthouse on jury watch.

Why is this taking longer than 10 seconds?

Why did the defense agree to the lesser included offenses? I’m worried that the jury will compromise for those.

    Layman101 in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 12:22 pm

    I think if they didn’t allow, that would allow state to bring the lesser charges up if he is acquitted on the serious charges and retry him on them.
    Which I think is total BS, so makes sense that the state would have that option.

    EdSeventen in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 1:42 pm

    Spot on. I would have asked for all or nothing, no in between. Then again, I’m not facing life in prison

The unasked question in response to the provocation issue raised by the prosecution was “Were the rioters provoked by citizens protecting a city the rioters wanted to destroy or were they actually in fear of being attacked for peacefully vandalizing”?

It is possible that there will be jurors who viewed the rioters as civil rights heroes in which case no evidence will deter them from a guilty vote. On the other hand, there will be others who will view the prosecutors as one more example of public officials abdicating their responsibility to preserve order. They will vote to acquit.

The prosecutions case was that if the police aren’t there, rioters are free to destroy anything they want and to attack any civilian citizen who stands in their way. According to the final rebuttal, the defenders of the city are supposed to simply take the beating they deserve for getting in the way of the rioters.

It is hard for me to believe that you will be able to find 12 jurors willing to convict on any of the charges, let alone on all of them. The prosecution case is a plea for civilization-al suicide.

    No, it’s not a call for civilizational suicide. The rioters were -allowed- to riot because the civil authorities permitted them to do so. This gives those authorities the ability to suppress any counter demonstrations as a “threat to public safety” and allows them to turn a blind eye and call up the leftist mob whenever they want to, just like radicals in the French assembly could whip up the Parisian mob “on call” whenever they needed it to suppress their political enemies. Look at how the far left has captured DA and AG positions and the offices responsible for vote counting. Together with the politicized regulatory apparatus of the administrative bureaucracy, they already have many of the tools needed for the imposition of a one party state.

>>28 I don’t trust the jurors on this panel, or most jurors specifically. When BLM threatens to dox and attack you for your decision, the rule of law is gone forever.
right and they’re not sequestered.

AND I THINK LITTLEFINGER AIMED THE GUN AT THEM TO INSTILL IN THEIR MINDS THE THREAT THEY WERE LIVING UNDER.

They’re gonna come back with a verdict today, right? 🙁

    fogflyer in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 12:41 pm

    It will certainly be a good sign if they do. The longer it drags on the worse it looks for Kyle. IMHO.

      Layman101 in reply to fogflyer. | November 16, 2021 at 12:59 pm

      I agree. A fast verdict would be good news for acquittal. Like watching the videos a few times at regular speed should make any reasonable person say “yeah that’s clearly self-defence, if he didn’t shoot he’d be badly maimed or dead”.
      But the longer you let a person continually watch and stare at 1/30 or a sec still frames the more likely they are to become unreasonable and say “he could have stopped here, or here, or yelled something there.”

I just hope that everyone in Kenosha remembers how the dirtbag owners of Car Source tried to throw Kyle and his friends under the bus with their lies. I would certainly expect all the good citizens of Kenosha to do their car shopping elsewhere.

    Decee in reply to fogflyer. | November 16, 2021 at 1:05 pm

    Apparently the jury have asked for 11 copies of jury instructions pages 1-6 which I think is mainly about self defence.

    Not sure if that’s a good or a bad sign.

    pmpalmiero in reply to fogflyer. | November 16, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    I am sorry I missed how Car Source thru Kyle under the bus. Can you remind me? Thanks.

      EdSeventen in reply to pmpalmiero. | November 16, 2021 at 1:33 pm

      As defense pointed out. If the Sahari bros admit to hiring people with guns ( non professionals) and someone dies on their premises, which Rosenbaum did, as a result of those men, they are open to a huge lawsuit

      lurker9876 in reply to pmpalmiero. | November 16, 2021 at 1:33 pm

      The owners of Car Source denied asking for help and protection.

      fogflyer in reply to pmpalmiero. | November 16, 2021 at 2:02 pm

      The two owners testified that they never asked any of these guys to protect the property. The evidence showed they posed with the guys in photos, gave them keys and texted about it. That flat out perjured themselves.

        healthguyfsu in reply to fogflyer. | November 16, 2021 at 2:34 pm

        1. The state is not going to prosecute them for helping their case with perjury.

        2. They can just say that they answered the question literally…”No, I did not ask Kyle to protect the property” (asked someone else…or say they misunderstood the question if caught in a snare over it)

        This is the reality unfortunately.

          Observer in reply to healthguyfsu. | November 16, 2021 at 3:29 pm

          They weren’t concerned about perjury charges, which are almost never prosecuted. They were, and are, concerned about the possibility of getting hit with a multi-million-dollar civil verdict from one or more of the people shot (or their estates, in the case of the two dead ones). And they may also be concerned about insurance fraud charges, since they appear to have vastly over-stated the dollar amount of the damages they claimed to have sustained.

    TallDave in reply to fogflyer. | November 16, 2021 at 2:49 pm

    threatened with prosecution?

Good morning and thank you for the indepth coverage of this trial.
One thing that has bothered me throughout the trial is the interaction, really the lack of interaction, between Kyle Rittenhouse and his defense attorneys. Kyle sits off to the side, the attorneys talk to each other, but I haven’t seen them include Kyle in any conversations. When he left the stand after his testimony and took his seat, his attorneys didn’t say a word to him. After closing statements yesterday, same thing.
Anyone with any insight into the relationship between the defense and Kyle or noticed the same thing?

Apparently the jury have asked for 11 copies of jury instructions pages 1-6 which I think is mainly about self defence.

Not sure if that’s a good or a bad sign.

    FrogLegStew in reply to Decee. | November 16, 2021 at 1:13 pm

    What is the source for this apparent Jury request?

    lurker9876 in reply to Decee. | November 16, 2021 at 1:35 pm

    Andrew also referred to the 805 code.

    Sounds like they will reach a verdict on all counts by the end of the day.

    c_programmer in reply to Decee. | November 16, 2021 at 1:41 pm

    I think good. My reading is that the jury actually gives a damn and they’re taking it seriously. That will not move things towards a conviction. If they step through the instructions methodically most of Binger and Krauses non-arguments fall flat.

      Agree

      EdSeventen in reply to c_programmer. | November 16, 2021 at 1:47 pm

      I as hoping the first question for every charge was whether the action is protected under self defense. If not, then discuss the particulars of the charge.

      VetHusbandFather in reply to c_programmer. | November 16, 2021 at 2:28 pm

      My read is that this will mean hung jury. My guess is that you have some diehards that don’t think he has a right to self defense and no additional review of the self defense jury instructions will convince them otherwise.

        How is a hung jury determined? If 1 person votes self defense and is unchangeable, does this mean a hung jury or acquittal?

          c_programmer in reply to pmpalmiero. | November 16, 2021 at 2:36 pm

          Both acquittal and conviction require unanimous decisions, anything else is a hung jury. The judge will push them to do everything possible to agree, but if they are completely certain that no agreement can be reached they are hung.

          Once hung we go through the process again. Binger gets to refile and hope for an activist judge next time. IMO this is what he is hoping for today.

          VetHusbandFather in reply to pmpalmiero. | November 16, 2021 at 3:20 pm

          The flip side of this news, is that there is at least one person on the jury considering the elements required for self defense. I don’t see how any reasonable/honest person could get past the fact that he met all the requirements for self defense here. So I think the very best Binger can hope for is a hung jury. I simply don’t see whoever asked for these instructions as being willing to convict or compromise on any charge. So the real question is will that person be able to convince the rest.

    PhillyWatch in reply to Decee. | November 16, 2021 at 2:40 pm

    Wish they had access to AFB’s very clear and understandable explanations of the elements of self defense.

    jmare in reply to Decee. | November 16, 2021 at 4:47 pm

    CNN is reporting that the jurors asked for copies of the rest of the jury instructions around 3PM central time. That makes me think Kyle is fucked. I honestly don’t see how this is a good thing for him. It appears that they’ve decided that Kyle wasn’t acting in self defense. Hopefully, I’m wrong, but I don’t think it looks good.

If they take Kyles self defense right away they also take their own. If they don’t come in today BLM/Antifa will have to light up a few police cars to keep warm tonight it is chilly up there. Could the jury be that stupid…Yes they can.

Andrew, I was reading your about section on law of self defense….have you litigated before and what’s your history there? I didn’t see it mentioned.

Probable Jump Kick Man identified. 49 yr old Kenosha resident on probation with multiple felony convictions.
Binger knew

    Cooper in reply to Elzorro. | November 16, 2021 at 2:29 pm

    I believe Binger knew and hid him. But if Binger did not know, then I think Jump Kick Man must have been smart enough to realize he participated in the mob’s attempt to kill this kid and he disappeared intentionally to save himself from prosecution. Though in our flawed system under Binger, people like him and Kyle’s other attackers are revered as heroes. Disgusting.

Rekietalaw is reporting that there is information about JumpKickMan and he has an extensive criminal background.

I wonder if he is connected to the FBI/s

Correction 40 yr old and black. Just breaking.

    madisonian_123 in reply to Elzorro. | November 16, 2021 at 3:28 pm

    So Kyle only shot white people who attacked him, but not this black person who attacked him? Kyle is such a terrible white supremacist, isn’t he?

I am really dismayed by the unethical performance by the two prosecutors–this country is founded on the rule of law, and they just turned that upside down. And as for sheer stupidity, that argument about just taking a beat down because everyone gets one should have that prosecutor’s law school alma mater seriously thinking about recalling the degree they awarded him

Based on the 12:24 update, it sounds like maybe the jury didn’t believe the prosecutors concept of self-defense?

Asking for the copies of the instructions, limited to the first 6 pages indicate to me a logical approach by the jury.

Link to the 805: https://wilawlibrary.gov/jury/files/criminal/0805.pdf

Reading this would lead me to conclude, “Not guilty”.

    Binger knew who he was.

    My gut is saying NG on all counts today. Adittional info on Bingers Scheme is now outing. I do think judge can use to direct verdict if jury fails.

    Defense should have had a “Jump kick man” in the gallery for when prosecutor was holding the rifle. Very wishful thinking, but would have made a point when the prosecutor gets to be the illustration of just how fast an “Unarmed” attacker can get to you.

    “The Dan O’Donnell Show” is not naming Jump Kick Man, as he has not been criminally charged in connection with the Rittenhouse case. Sources indicate that he contacted prosecutors and offered to testify, but in exchange requested immunity from an ongoing drunk driving and domestic abuse case with which he was charged in June. Prosecutors declined his offer and chose not to call him as a witness in the Rittenhouse case.

    The story says Jump Kick Man offered to testify in exchange for immunity on other charges & the DA declined. Sounds like the DAs lied about not being able to identify him and withheld a witness from the defense, which would join suppression of possible exculpatory evidence on Grosskreuz’s phone, and other DA misconduct as good grounds for a directed acquittal with prejudice.

      Elzorro in reply to PBM. | November 16, 2021 at 2:01 pm

      JKP is one of Bingers ‘Hero of the State’ medal recommendations. Binger is starting to look like a James Bond Movie Villian.

      lurker9876 in reply to PBM. | November 16, 2021 at 2:16 pm

      Why would JKM want to testify?

      Mister Logic in reply to PBM. | November 16, 2021 at 3:32 pm

      “Sounds like the DAs lied about not being able to identify him and withheld a witness from the defense”

      Not necessarily. He may have contacted the DA through a lawyer to maintain anonymity while trying to broker the deal.

    TallDave in reply to thad_the_man. | November 16, 2021 at 2:43 pm

    this is a bit confusing to me

    if prosecution knew who he was, did they have a duty to share? and did they?

    defense can’t call him as a witness if they don’t know who he was, but not sure there’s any legal theory under which prosecutors could hide this witness’ identity from defense, clearly he’s not in danger from Rittenhouse or anything like that

      This is where the investigation- that was supposed to be independent was supposed to have turned up stuff.

      This was a major conflict of interest in that the investigator was just a puppet of the prosecutor.

My partner just overheard a replay of the fatarse ADA claiming that Kyle should have ‘taken his beating’ (or words to that effect).

She asked a question that brings it all home – What if Kyle was a woman? Should she have taken a beating as well?

Don’t even think of claiming this isn’t political.

Exactly what did the transcripts say about the JKP?

If somebody said JKP jumped on Kyle’s face or the video showed it, Krause was wrong in his rebuttal argument. Kyle did take a beating.

Picture from Matt Walsh made me think of the scores of truly non involved people who were caught up and beaten almost to death during the BLM riots.

Also, Andy Ngo, Drew Hernandez, and a few other independent journalists were at these riots and recorded their violence and damages. They also assaulted, hurt, and killed innocent victims. Remember David Dorn and a puppy?

I didn’t get to see all the trial but the defense called a Use of Force expert to the effect that all law enforcement are trained to avoid being overtaken by multiple attackers including through use of deadly force right? This happened right?!

    lurker9876 in reply to xnycp. | November 16, 2021 at 2:39 pm

    No. Judge ruled that this UOF expert is not allowed to express his opinion. He did allow this same expert to go over the video and determine the time slots.

moments ago “guys we’re out of napkins”

Colonel Travis | November 16, 2021 at 2:38 pm

Andrew on Rekieta Law – awesome!

Re Matt Walsh’s comment: Good to remember those cinder block throwing thugs were all acquitted by LA County juries.

Not allowing use of force expert was a big reversible error for appeal if needed.

Without an expert, all of the patently false claims of Binger and Kraus about what is legal in a self defense situation were allowed to fester unrebutted.

While you can say that such an expert doesn’t show Kyle’s “training” or lack thereof…you are also asking an expert to testify on the legality of the situation and that is important. It was sorely lacking in this trial and allowed the scheme team to just trounce all over honest legalese like it was a cheap rug.

    healthguyfsu in reply to healthguyfsu. | November 16, 2021 at 2:44 pm

    I think it could have been successfully argued, especially for an appeal since the state decided to wait to completely ignore the reality of self defense until their closing when no proper response could be made.

Mr Branca is up live on Rekietalaw right now. Explaining self defense to the lawyers.

I do still remember the name of Reginald Denny. Very sad.

Andy Ngo recalls an elderly man with a fire extinguisher to ward off the BLAMTIFA folks. They then beat him up and begins bleeding from his head. Showed a photo of him.

Binger had the gall to call BLAMTIFA heroes.

And the meantime, BLAMTIFA crowd building up around the court house. LEO has not yet called the NG.

Pray for Kyle….Now is the time. Pray the jury does the right thing. Pray for our republic. Pray for Mr Richards. I am.

Reading a few tweets. The WI NG is keeping their locations secret but could be about 60 miles away. The LEO’s are not making any plans to protect the buildings and innocent victims. No road closures, et al.

Does it mean that they are allowing the BLAMTIFA to start riots, looting, and arson all over again?

This jury is taking too much time and I am very scared for Kyle
Kyle is everyone of our sons

    IMO I see NG or hung jury. It should all be Not Guilty. I cannot see them getting twelve to convict on any charge though some may try to convict him for the alleged poor choice of being there or the ridiculous provocation charge.

    Elzorro in reply to gonzotx. | November 16, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    Do not be afraid.

    Cooper in reply to gonzotx. | November 16, 2021 at 3:55 pm

    I had the conversation with my teenage son yesterday about trying as much as he can to not put himself in bad situations. I explained that Kyle was trying to do the right thing and nothing he did was actually wrong, but he was in a dangerous situation and the system is now steam rolling him. These prosecutors lied and misrepresented the law every step of the way. If it can happen to him, it can happen to any of us.

Has SCOTUS ever ruled on charging a child as an adult, which he isn’t?

So we haven’t heard a peep from the jury since lunch?

Kyle is NG of the charges. There can be no other verdict unless our CJS has broken IMO. Especially is this notorious case. This is a test of our system of justice.

WOW Mr Branca has lit up Rekietalaw like a Christmas Tree.

The jury may be voting right now.

A point not mentioned is the pulling of the AR in Kyle’s hands, is that the AR has been chambered with another bullet since the prior shots. If one pulls the barrel towards themselves the gun will most likely fire again as Kyle most likely has his finger on the trigger activating the shot and reloading again. This may have been a factor in both the Rosenbaum and Huber shootings.

UPDATE — #Rittenhouse jurors have now requested 11 copies of jury instructions from page 7 to 36. In the morning, they request 11 copies of the instructions from page 1 to 6. The instructions are 36 pages in all.

I am watching an anatomy of a wrongful conviction. This is how they happen on many different levels. I only hope it fails.

This poor kid, he is a hero actually and these people are terrified of finding him NG

When I think of these thugs and how they tried to kill this kid

Please dear God let this at least be a hung jury

It’s getting late

I am so proud of Mr Branca on his Rekieta Law appearance. His expertise can not be bought like the usual show me the green legal eagle practitioners. He will be the most sought after due to his ethics.

Maybe Mr Branch should represent Kyle

Zorro bring yourself together already…geez

Reports of clashes going on between the BLM mob and supporters in Daily Mail

Reporter have hired armed security

Did anyone else hear about this.. the protesters were allowed to the courthouse? SNAP

https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/status/1460722623944568835

I think they may be struggling with the jury instructions. The judge and the lawyers were getting more and more confused about the instructions.

They decided that the jury should decide first on SD. If SD, then ignore the rest.

But I do not know if the judge made updates to the instructions.

I am lost in the mystic, My issue is wrongful convictions first, last and always. Left, Right hey now. All wrongful convictions are just wrong. Especially political ones. Now if y’all don’t like I no mind.

I am hoping Julio makes it big… he seems nice.. This was interesting.

https://twitter.com/Julio_Rosas11/status/1460716751465988097?s=20

Just saw that the McCloskeys are at the courthouse with Kyle’s supporters

    Elzorro in reply to pchase9401. | November 16, 2021 at 5:29 pm

    So Apropo. Sometimes it can not be solved by the courts an legal system. In the old days they had citizens committees. Look it up.

https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-jump-kick-man-who-attacked-kyle-rittenhouse-identified-as-violent-career-criminal

Wait…. was the defense ever informed that prosecution knew where to find this guy? is this a brady violation?

    lurker9876 in reply to Krenn. | November 16, 2021 at 5:31 pm

    It sounds like a brady violation to me. But I wonder if the videos saw this JKM actually jump kicked Kyle in his face.

Report that two jurors holding up the decision. Hopefully 10 to acquit.

If it hangs 10-2 in favor of acquittal, or even 9-3 or 8-4, is a retrial likely?

    traderjoe91 in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    Per Jack Posobiec twitter

      lurker9876 in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:40 pm

      Just read Posobeic’s comments (at Telegram).

      The two jurors are holding up due to the backlash coming from the protests.

      And the jurors are afraid that their names will be leaked to the media.

      Sounds like it would have been unanimous NG all the way. They are just looking for a reason to declare him guilty of something.

    Olinser in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    In a normal environment? Hell no, no prosecutor would retry a case that they lost that badly without a significant change in evidence or strategy (that they don’t have), and in particular a bunch of things in the next trial such as NO gun charge right off the bat, and a whole bunch of magical fairy crap that the prosecution dumped in the middle of the trial that will be available from the start.

    But in this insane woke leftist environment? Prosecutor will probably refile and lose again just for political points and to fuck with Rittenhouse and make him spend more money defending himself again.

    lurker9876 in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:35 pm

    That is where I am confused. The lawyers and the judges were talking about unanimous NG on all charges but then a simple majority meant that they could look at the lesser charges.

    The judge said something to Kyle about some retrial or he will not be retried on the lesser charges.

    I remain confused.

    Maybe they will convince the two jurors for unanimous to declare Kyle NG.

    From what I saw of the tweet, it says the 2 holdouts specifically cited backlash as the reason. That implies to me that the 10 are in favor of acquittal.

    UserPeabody in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:48 pm

    Reportedly two jurors are afraid and fear for their safety if they vote for acquittal..

      UserPeabody in reply to UserPeabody. | November 16, 2021 at 5:57 pm

      Although that is probably just a rumor, it is not a rumor that undue pressure to convict has been exerted by the media, talk shows, politicians, protestors and the recent memory of threats against jurors at recent high profile trials.

      Plus the National Guard standing by because they expect there will be violence in case of acquittal—is that not pressure to convict?

    PhillyWatch in reply to traderjoe91. | November 16, 2021 at 5:57 pm

    If the reason the two are holding up is fear of backlash then can the judge dismiss them and bring in two of the six alternates? It seems to me the jury has to decide on the charges based solely on evidence.

IF they actually asked for copies of instructions past self-defense it’s not a good sign, as everything else was cancelled out if they agreed self-defense.

However it could also simply be a sign of a couple of holdouts demanding that they go through everything hoping they can get a conviction.

I said a few days ago that I think this is going to end in a mistrial. I can’t imagine an actual acquittal with the insanity of the left these days.

2 jurors holding out from NG.

Wow, if Jacek Posobiec is right, the court will have to grant some relief. That is unconscionable!

    AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Mister Logic. | November 16, 2021 at 5:41 pm

    Yeah, that’s not a tenable situation.

    If it’s true then I’m both angry that the jurors would refuse to free an innocent man because of their own fears, and relieved that they’re being honest about that.

    Can the court excuse them as ‘unable to fulfil their duties’?

US Marshall revealed this information to Posobiec, direct or indirect.

We are about to cross the Rubicon when it comes to fair trials if a mob is allowed to intimidate a jury with the tacit permission of the government. Why protesters are allowed within earshot or visible from a window to the jury is beyond comprehension.

Could someone explain how anyone outside the jury room could possibly know about 2 holdouts?

    richtrue in reply to Manny. | November 16, 2021 at 5:49 pm

    There has to be some form of communication between the jury and the court. They asked for jury instructions, and we knew that. Perhaps these concerns have been expressed to the Judge, and it made it’s way to others in the room. Not sure it’s believable, but this is incredibly serious, if true.

    Elzorro in reply to Manny. | November 16, 2021 at 5:51 pm

    Leaks

    JHogan in reply to Manny. | November 16, 2021 at 5:51 pm

    Jurors can express their concerns about their safety to the judge. And it can be overheard.

Not an attorney. If jury is hung and the judge is forced to declare a mistrial – can he add the “with prejudice” part on his own?

Two jurors are afraid to vote guilty. Afraid of violence and retribution against them and their family.

The judge is responsible for protecting the jury.

Time for the judge to call a mistrial. with prejudice.

10-2 is reasonable for directed verdict.

James B. Shearer | November 16, 2021 at 5:51 pm

Zimmerman jury deliberated 16 hours and there were only six of them. So it may be a while.

Has anyone seen activity going on between the judge and the attorneys? There’s no way this rumor could be floating out there without them knowing about it and getting to the bottom of it.

TaxPayingPatriot | November 16, 2021 at 5:53 pm

I miss the America I grew up in. This is just bullsh*t when mobs of lawbreakers are in control. If I were on the Jury, I’d vote not guilty and go on TV, maybe try to write a book or work on a screenplay. You have to be able to defend yourself or we are no longer free. Our government is failing us, and the cops are standing down to the very people they should be arresting.

I hope the judge can just step in and put an end to this, or find two jurors with the balls to cast their vote.

If true, you possibly have 2 jurors holding out on voting NG because they are in fear for their lives from the same mob that put Kyle in fear for his own. that is beyond irony.


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