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Shooting of Republican congressmen was a long time in the making

Shooting of Republican congressmen was a long time in the making

Anti-Trump left “getting closer and closer to the point that they will be ready to fight”

The shooting of Republican Congressman Steven Scalise and others during a baseball practice has led to a lot of examination of the anti-Trump, anti-Republican incitement from the mainstream left.

While criminal culpability rests with the shooter, there also is no doubt that we are experiencing an unprecedented derangement from establishment Democrats, pro-Democrat media (which is almost all of the mainstream media), the entertainment industry and on campuses.

We have been documenting the often violent opposition to Trump for over a year, but particularly since the election. The entire concept of “The Resistance” invokes violence, a deliberate allusion to the resistance movements in World War II Europe.

If you view Trump and his supporters as Hitler and Nazis, anything goes.

Others are doing admirable jobs today cataloging the recent incitement to violence from media figures.

In trying to make sense of what happened today, I kept coming back to a radio interview talk show host Michael Koolidge had with our friend Rebel Pundit (Jeremy Segal) which we posted on May 24, 2016, after Jeremy was arrested for filming an anti-Milo riot at DePaul Univesrity in Chicago, #FreeRebelPundit – arrested while filming leftist riot DePaul U. appearance.

Jeremy knows the radical left better than anyone I know. He has produced many videos of leftist riots, including the riots that led to canceling Donald Trump’s campaign event in Chicago in March 2016

I’ve remembered Jeremy’s words every time I see the campus shout-downs, Antifa beat downs, and other assorted riots.

And I thought of those words the moment I heard of the Scalise shooting:

While people are out, running around, scared about the things Donald Trump is saying, there is an army  of radical, militant youth being built in this country that lives in an absolutely alternative dimension and a different reality. Their entire world view is completely different and completely antithetical to the traditional American world view. And they are getting closer and closer to the point that they will be ready to fight. I don’t know when that’s going to be, but it’s coming and it’s very ugly.

(full interview here)

James T. Hodgkinson may not have been young, but he was infected with that same willingness to fight as Antifa and other anti-Trump leftists who riot. By all evidence, Hodgkinson was driven by an apocalyptic view of Trump’s election.

The window for violence has been moved from the radical fringes to the mere left. It’s much bigger than the incitement. And it’s been a long time in the making.

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Comments

David Breznick | June 14, 2017 at 9:25 pm

The left’s new call to arms is, “This Fight Is Our Fight”.

https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/669494314.jpg

LORETTA LYNCH Calls for ‘Ordinary People’ to March, Bleed and Die Again – 022817
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWsE8mDG96E

GOP rep. received threatening email with subject line ‘One down, 216 to go…’ after lawmaker shooting
BY OLIVIA BEAVERS – 06/14/17 01:51 PM EDT
http://archive.is/gnTi7

At some point the pro-Trump right will react… the pro-Trump right includes the military, the police, the NRA, and most gun owners.

When that day comes the “left” isn’t going to like it.

    katiejane in reply to Kaffa. | June 14, 2017 at 10:23 pm

    That is what I don’t understand about the “call to resistance” by the liberals. Do they really want to back the people who believe in the 2nd amendment and are armed into a corner until they decide it’s their turn? If they think the Right is evil they probably should be wondering about its reaction to violence from the Left.

    It’s already happening. The grassroot anti-Sharia rallies are a lot like the Tea Party rallies and seem to have caught the left by surprise. They again demonstrate the advantage of grassroot action over the Soros-financed “resistance” who are now being spread too thin to maintain their cover story.

    The Soros mercenaries-for-hire were so short of troops that we witnessed the absurdity of LGBT groups defending Sharia. Can we expect the “Jews for Hitler” anytime soon? They were out-manned and out-muscled everywhere. And as with the Tea Party movement, our side is showing up for free.

    That is a big reason why we are seeing left-wing violence and violent imagery in the propaganda escalating. Their narrative has so descended into absurdity that they have lost the hearts and minds of Main Street. We feel the fear. But it is not Trump and the Russians that we fear but our own corrupt government and elite establishment.

    It’s crunch time.

    YellowSnake in reply to Kaffa. | June 15, 2017 at 8:55 am

    They may be behind the curve, but there are more of them and they are younger. Are you sure they can’t learn? Thanks to the NRA, there are few impediments to their obtaining weapons or training. How do you know it isn’t going on right now?

    The police and military are trained to follow orders. Are you sure they will all fall en mass with what you happen to believe?

    I have been listening to people calling for ‘2nd amendment solutions’ for years. Trump said it. People on this site were calling for ‘remedies’ when they thought Hillary was going to win. Maybe some malcontents were reading this site and will be provoked.

    Just keep promulgating fake and misleading stories and spinning the truth and the crazies of both sides will rise to surface. It is all but guaranteed.

    Do I think it is right? No. Do I think it will happen? Absolutely. If you don’t want it to happen, listen to the reasonable opposition; or watch the unreasonable opposition grow. This guy had no history of violent activity or even a criminal record. He lost his rationality through some mechanism. Maybe he harbored a grudge over Gabby Giffords?

    I am sure there will be others. You can become indignant or you can recognize your culpability in creating an environment beyond reason.

    If you really think that the crazies on the left can’t catch up to the crazies on the right – and surpass them – you have not studied history. In the end, ideology doesn’t have an ideology. It is simply a belief in something beyond reason. It is simply a way to justify what you already want to believe. When people go beyond reason, they stop being reasonable. Do you really think you have a patent on that?

    (sarcasm intended) I thank all of you for stoking the process. Now flame me and make my point. Remember, I do not advocate what this man did. But I am not surprised by it.

      jeffweimer in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 9:59 am

      This argument is odious. You seem to think it’s the right’s fault this guy radicalized himself, and you absolve by omission the very real calls to and excuses of violence by the left.

      It’s like you’re saying she was just asking for it, look at how she’s dressed!

        YellowSnake in reply to jeffweimer. | June 15, 2017 at 10:55 am

        Nope, it is saying the the current POTUS made statements about using your 2nd amendment rights if the election was ‘stolen’ from him.

        Did he say it? What did he mean?

        Nope, I am saying that there are anti-abortion sites that publish the name, picture and address of abortion providers and put an ‘X’ over their pictures when they are killed. That goes way beyond a short skirt.

      “This guy had no history of violent activity or even a criminal record.”

      Wrong, there were plenty of indications he was a violent loon for a long time. I’ve read numerous press reports of his prior run-ins with the law. This one goes into more detail than most:

      http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/james-t-hodgkinson-identified-as-shooter-of-gop-lawmakers.html

        YellowSnake in reply to Paul. | June 15, 2017 at 10:43 am

        I stand corrected. The early reports said he did not have a record. So how does a man who fired 15 shots near his how and pointed a gun at someone still have access to guns?

          It’s like the NRA keeps saying, ENFORCE THE LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS!

          YellowSnake in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 11:08 am

          Phil, when are they going to do more than ‘SAY’ it? They sure do more than that when they want to stop a law. Ever heard the term ‘lip service’?

          The NRA claims that they want mental illness treated, but they don’t want the mentally ill to be denied guns. BTW, the House AMCA bill gives states the ability to do away with treatment for drug addiction and mental health. Duh! How come the NRA has chimed in on this?

          MaggotAtBroadAndWall in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 1:29 pm

          Most people still think people should not be denied Constitutionally protected rights without due process.

          “It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
          .
          .
          .
          (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
          .
          .
          .
          https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

      Barry in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 1:47 pm

      yellowbelly, a paid murderer. Go peddle your hatred somewhere they’re stupid enough to buy it.

    Valerie in reply to Kaffa. | June 15, 2017 at 10:31 am

    I would really rather not see this result, and for that reason, I would suggest that the grownups of this country are well capable of heading this off.

    We have an early test case involving the Antifa “bike lock” attacker, Eric Clanton.

    Berkeley, as usual, is a mess, and ANTIFA was allowed to get completely out of hand. There was a lot of chatter among the kiddies about being prepared for the next demonstrations, and some of it definitely went in the direction of your comments.

    Other commentary urged the kiddies to get their parents to contact the local city councils and police departments, and tell them to keep the peace.

    Police have since taken steps to disarm and unmask the ANTIFA members. Charges (felonies, too) have been filed, and there will be prosecutions. In DC, the protesters at the inauguration were horrified to find out that there would be felony riot charges.

    This is how it stops. Grownups write their members of Congress, and tell them to control their colorful rhetoric

A redneck leftist. Who’d have thought?

Look, we need to collectively get our heads out of our behinds – in particular, the GOPe. Now that one of them has been shot, maybe their own self-preservation will overcome their greed and corruption (or, they will side with the fascist left, taking the easy way out – a more likely scenario.)

In any event, the GOPe has a base of zero. On the other hand, Trump has a GIANT base of fighters.

Time for the Justice Dept to indict seditionists.

Sam in Texas | June 14, 2017 at 10:21 pm

What this shooting shows is that everyone should pack heat all the time, everywhere.

It’s time to reestablish the Militia where the members are ordered to carry concealed weapons 100% of the time.

The fact that the MSM has completely ignored the violent antics of those masked Atnifa goons shows the lengths they will go to protect the narrative.

Most of the leftist attacks have been allowed by authorities in power. Police have been told to stand down and allow violence as long as the violence comes from the left, Black Lives Matter or similar groups.

We have seen this before:
In the early years of Nazi Germany thugs attacked people while the police looked the other way. Eventually those thugs became the authorities and murdered millions.

In the worst years of the South, lynch mobs knew the authorities would not get in their way.

But when it is the left and democratic politicians and the media calls for hatred and violence, it is okay.

The current sentiment is worst than anything we have ever seen in this country.

For those of you too young…”welcome back to the 1960’s!” Only now the weather underground and Moscow supporters actually run the DNC and allies……and some ran for the Presidency this time around. All that money funneled into Leftist support groups by the Obama Admin will start to bear fruit….hundreds of millions of dollars buy a lot of support and infrastructure to disrupt the orderly running of the country. With supporters in high ranking political and judicial positions even “government” can be used to compromise The Government. The same values are there….they felt that anything was better ….even a country reduced to ashes.

Last night we had our monthly Republican Executive Meeting. Today, I was thinking if I am being paranoid in asking our chairman if we have people who carrry or do I need to carry now. We are targets now. It is not the democrats I am concerned about per se but their rhetoric influencing an unstable person is what is concerning.

    Subotai Bahadur in reply to natdj. | June 15, 2017 at 3:29 am

    Well, here in Colorado, in my TEA Party run County Republican Central Committee, we could stand off a decent sized attack just with what is on the persons of the Precinct Committee.

    Open Carry state and “shall issue” concealed carry.

    Depending on your laws, y’all should have a security detail carrying. Just like Evangelical Churches here have members carrying at every service. Hard times are coming, and you want your people to survive the first blast and get to their own defensive resources.

      Exactly! I a man even thinking of cautioning my young teenage son not to wear any Trump shirts or socks due to being a target. Also, I am concerned about allowing them to attend any Young Republican or Conservative function for youth. There are way too many liberals who are bent on destruction and mayhem.

    Obie1 in reply to natdj. | June 15, 2017 at 7:33 am

    The simple answer is , yes, you should carry. We all should.

MaggotAtBroadAndWall | June 14, 2017 at 11:42 pm

I am worried. I fear they may really try to nullify the election by forcing Trump to resign on trumped on obstruction charges. And I don’t think the Trump supporters are going to take it.

The people trying to engineer this coup seem to have calculated that the populace is too docile to care that the president they elected is gong to be removed on what appear to be weak obstruction charges.

They may be playing with fire. If that happens and the pro-Trumpers take to the streets to protest in anger, and the anti-Trumpers are already stoked for violence, we could be looking at some serious unrest like we haven’t seen in this country before.

    ” And I don’t think the Trump supporters are going to take it.”

    No we’re not. Why would any sane person allow the gov to corruptly remove our freedom and liberty?

    You? Going along with it?

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

    Samuel Adams

It’s always worried me that the left lionizes people like John Brown and Che Guevara, people who believed that violence against ones political enemies would somehow make the world a better place. John Brown’s uprising turned into a bloodbath that accomplished nothing except hastening a civil war that killed millions, and Che was a cold blooded killer who turned a wealthy tropical paradise into an impoverished but nuclear armed totalitarian state.

Thankfully for the rest of us, both were killed in the same chaos they themselves created. Their lives should be warnings of the dangers of political extremism combined with moral relativism, yet, to the left, these people are heroes, held up as the perfect embodiment of living one’s principles.

Sadly, this appears to be the exact outcome they have been working for.

All very nice, but resisting a coup takes a lot more than a minuteman rifle handing over the door. Organization and order are vital. And I’m not seeing any of that.

Fortunately, the Progressive Axis is not in a good position to actually do anything. In order for a coup to work, corrupt judges, crooked lawyers, MSM propagandists, and money aren’t enough. At some point they need force. “Boots on the ground”—type force. And that they don’t have.

And they know it. They’ve been trying to develop it for years, and failed. This became too obvious to ignore when Billy Jeff tried to develop BATF as the Government’s loyal “storm troops”. That was the “jackbooted thug” era, and things were going pretty well … they could assassinate dangerous enemies like Randy Weaver’s wife, and they seemed ready for more. Then they raided the Davidians. The Davidians did something unexpected … they fired back. The BATF semi-toughs skedaddled and subsequently funked out completely, and the President had to send the FBI to finish the job, albeit badly.

Bush II may have recognized the danger of the still over-militarized BATF, and took advantage of the new Homeland Security organization to break up BATF’s old command & control structure by splitting it between its old home, the Treasury department, and moving a chunk of it to Justice. (Or maybe I’m giving him too much credit.)

Obama continued the hunt for reliable shock troops, though in his usual half-hearted, lackadaisical way. He tried to revive BATF as a criminal organization with Gunrunner, and pushed that bizarre program of funneling surplus military equipment to civilian police forces. (But the gift of Free Government Stuff doesn’t seem to have bought the Dems much police loyalty.) That strangely enormous stockpile of small-arms ammunition that agencies such as HUD were gathering was also suspicious. Simultaneously, Obama set out to castrate the military, undoubtedly so that it couldn’t be used to fight the reliable police hit squads he was trying to set up. He retired senior officers at alarming rates and moved in the SJW types, with the apparent aim of turning America’s military into some useless hybrid of Club Med and a huge gay bar. How far he succeeded I don’t know. (Probably not very … fortunately for us all, while Obama’s malevolence was second to none, he wasn’t terribly good at actually doing things, and was far too conceited to realize when he was failing.)

So, they don’t have a pliable police or useful military force which would meet their need for decisive action. What else do they have? “Antifa” thug-wannabees, BLM racists, and crazy old snipers who can’t manage to kill a stationary target from fifty yards off. In other words … nothing much.

So, despite their efforts, the Dems don’t seem to have successfully established a force—either on or off the government payroll—which has both the willingness and the capability of carrying out their plans. They could go so far as to issue arrest warrants for Trump (illegal warrants, of course, but so what), but they’ll have nobody to enforce them.

Trump, on the other hand, can expect support from most of America’s police and most of its military. And, even failing that, if he tweeted that he needed half a million good Americans on the Mall in two days … and told them to be sure to bring their rifles … he’d get them. I don’t believe that even the most rabid Progressive doesn’t realize that.

The more realistic danger is not so extreme, but very real. The target won’t be Trump, but Congressional Republicans … maybe judges, too. The Progressive Axis will be able to petrify them with a random attack or two, such as the one which just happened. The Repubs are pretty useless as it is, and they’ll only get worse if they think somebody’s gunning for them.

    iconotastic in reply to tom swift. | June 15, 2017 at 6:25 pm

    “…can expect support from most of America’s police and most of its military. And, even failing that, if he tweeted that he needed half a million good Americans on the Mall in two days … and told them to be sure to bring their rifles … he’d get them.”

    Line police may agree but they will follow legal orders from superiors who are leftists themselves. See Seattle, Berkeley, and San Jose for good examples of that. NYPD officers may detest DeBlasio but absent blatantly illegal orders they will maintain order and fulfill their duty. So I would not depend upon police.

    As for going to the Mall armed, that sounds like a terrible idea. Threatening armed insurrection won’t be dealt with gently by either the military or the police (see Bonus Army). Because, as we were taught in self-defense class, when you pull your weapon you should be ready to use it. Certainly the security forces will presume that fact.

    Maybe instead of just a half a million several million protestors should show up and stop business as usual in DC by passive resistance (blocking everything).

VaGentleman | June 15, 2017 at 6:13 am

When a person takes up a cause, their committment goes through a number of stages. At the penultimate stage, the question is ‘What am I willing to die for?’ The freedom marchers on the bridge, the guy standing in front of the tank, etc, all asked themselves that question. Implicit in this question is the belief that reason and morality may still prevail. You act to ‘bring them to their senses’. At the next level you ask, ‘What am I willing to kill for?’ At this level, reason and morality, like Elvis, leave the building. You no longer try to ‘bring them to their senses’, you just eliminate them. The enemy is no longer human, just a disease to be eliminated. At this stage, no one sheds any tears over the children fire bombed in Dresden or nuked at Hiroshima. The end now justifies the means. The enemy has been fully ‘othered’. In the 20th century, this was the consistent path the left used to take power. They have set the stage, and brought themselves to the ultimate question. At this stage it is almost impossible for the true believer to back down from violence. He has too much of himself and his self worth invested in the cause. Failure to go the last step would be an act of treason.

Self defense by those they oppose becomes another attack on their cause. Those of us who have to defend ourselves can expect the legal system to be used against us. Witness Zimmerman, Black Lives Matter, etc.

Defusing this situation will take firm action by the leaders of the progressive movement to condemn the violence and lower the level of hatred. Only they have the ‘moral authority’ to say it and make it stick. Since this is unlikely to happen, it’s going to be a long summer. Keep your guard up and your powder dry.

Stay safe, prof. Academia is no longer a safe zone and LI makes you a target.

FWIW – Rory Miller’s ‘Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected’ is well worth a read. If it doesn’t leave you scared, read it again.

Bitterlyclinging | June 15, 2017 at 7:04 am

“When the buds on the fig tree begin to swell, you know that Spring is near”
The second American Civil War is here.

The only bright spot here is that progressives seem to be terrible shots. Sixty-nine rounds fired and only five hits? If the Second American Civil War ever actually arrives, those guys will be slaughtered forthwith.

    YellowSnake in reply to snopercod. | June 15, 2017 at 9:03 am

    Ha, ha, ha. Are you sure that progressives can’t take target practice?

    Besides I wouldn’t take much comfort; given the fact that he got 69 shots off despite there being 2 police on the scene. What if there hadn’t been 2 police? There might have been a lot of dead congressmen. They should have been strapped during practice – don’t cha think?

    How did this guy even know where to find a ‘target rich’ environment? His aim wasn’t good, but his intel was. That ought to worry you.

      Anonamom in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 9:40 am

      Methinks your name is most appropriate.

      Barry in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 1:56 pm

      yellowbelly

      Yea, quite sure. You progs are too stupid to learn anything.

        YellowSnake in reply to Barry. | June 15, 2017 at 5:51 pm

        Do u really believe that progressives can’t be smart or do you not have an answer? Methinks it is the latter.

          Barry in reply to YellowSnake. | June 15, 2017 at 10:08 pm

          You’re dumber then a bag of bricks.

          You made a comment about going to the range to practice.
          Typical idiot statement. It requires financial expenditure to purchase ammunition, range time, weapons.
          It then requires years of training.
          You think some group of gangbangers are going to suddenly become proficient?

          You’re dumber then a bag of bricks.

    iconotastic in reply to snopercod. | June 15, 2017 at 6:08 pm

    John Allen Mohammed (Beltway Sniper) served for 17 years and along the way earned the Expert Marksman Badge. While the vast majority of Nation of Islam bigots and loons–like leftist loons–very likely couldn’t hit the side of a barn from the inside, Mo certainly demonstrated that such skill was achievable even for the most vile of people.

So long as poll keep showing that the vast majority of Americans across the political spectrum just don’t trust Congress, there is a reason why the Capitol building is a fortress. It is time for Congress to say good-bye to the dirty money and start reconnecting with the voters. For real. Mean it this time.

Every Republican congressman ran on the official perennial GOP platform but only Trump meant it. Am I the only one who sees the path to restoring confidence in government? Let’s see whether Corey Lewandowski is successful in holding the Republicans in the House’s feet to the fire over the 2018 elections before the end of summer. Expect a lot of these weasels to be primaried and winning with little more than a Trump endorsement.

Henry Hawkins | June 15, 2017 at 10:25 am

I have a .357 revolver in a holster attached to my keyboard.

Run your time machine back to the period beginning with the signing of the Korean Armistice Agreement and follow the social and political history forward. The alaskabob post above has picked up on what has been going on in a quick overview. The phenomena of 20/20 hindsight will allow seeing where we have been and provide a decent prediction of where we are probably going.

First of all, there is no evidence that this incident was orchestrated by any group. It was a lone lunatic gunman. There is literally nothing that can be done about this type of violence in our society. Deadly violence has been touted as the answer to all slights, in our society for the last 50 years. We have allowed a victim-hood mentality to flourish in our society. Instead of an atmosphere of hope, we have created one of despair. Celebrity has become the highest achievement. Heroism through martyrdom is a viable path to celebrity. So, loons will crop up to use violence to inflict their pain on others, to achieve celebrity and even to heroically right what they perceive to be a wrong. And, there is nothing that can be done to stop these people, before they commit these atrocities.

Changing the outlook of our society can reduce the number of such people. But, that is no longer likely to happen; at least, not painlessly. We have simply gone too far down that road.

There are groups orchestrating violence against our society. The, being groups, can be identified, their members located and either incarcerated or dispersed. The lone lunatic generally flies under the radar for quite a while and when identified is usually released back into society. Which makes it hard to stop them from carrying out violent attacks. The only effective way of stopping such people is through the use of force applied at the point of attack. This also works well against our garden variety criminal element.

    Barry in reply to Mac45. | June 15, 2017 at 2:06 pm

    Oh BS.

    It was orchestrated in the same manner the muslim terrorists like ISIS orchestrate attacks. Create a toxic environment built upon lies, support for violent groups (BLM for one), and then you will get killers coming out to support your ends.

    That is how it’s done. The prog party is doing it. They are to blame.

      Mac45 in reply to Barry. | June 15, 2017 at 3:55 pm

      Barry, Barry, Barry. where is the evidence that any group planned this particular assault? That’s right, at this point there is NONE.

      Your second paragraph echoes my post exactly. A toxic environment has been produced. And, it has been done by the Liberal/Progressives. But, it has been in the works for decades, not simply months. BLM is a pre-Trump phenomenon which grew out of the general sense of victim-hood preached by the Progressives facilitated the active support of violence by groups associated with the BLM movement. There are corresponding examples of similar actions by other “victim” groups over the last 20 years. Then you have the Liberal/Progressive supported anarchist, nihilist and communist groups which use violence to disrupt society.

      The problem is that people like the Va shooter have been around forever. Timothy McVeigh, the Unibomber, Jared Loughner, Lynette “Squeaky” Fromme, John Hinckley, Jr are all in the same mold and all predate the election of Donald Trump. It is impossible to predict when people like this will strike. So, you have to be prepared to engage and neutralize them when they begin their attack.

        Barry in reply to Mac45. | June 15, 2017 at 10:15 pm

        Mac45, mac45, Mac45.

        “It was a lone lunatic gunman. There is literally nothing that can be done about this type of violence in our society.”

        That is directly in opposition to what I wrote. Either you did not read what I wrote or you do not understand what you wrote.

        It was orchestrated by the same group of thugs that murdered 100 million last century.

      YellowSnake in reply to Barry. | June 15, 2017 at 5:54 pm

      I agree with u 100%. Trump is creating a toxic environment.

    tyates in reply to Mac45. | June 15, 2017 at 7:56 pm

    See my post about John Brown / Che Guevara above. The left constantly lionizes these lunatics who kill for their principles. Where’s the line? And I don’t mean the legal line, I mean the moral and ethical one.

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