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There Is No Endgame To Continuing To Relitigate the 2020 Election. It’s a Dead End.

There Is No Endgame To Continuing To Relitigate the 2020 Election. It’s a Dead End.

My appearance on the Jesse Kelly Show: “And now [Trump’s] going to roll out, apparently Monday, a new report about Georgia election fraud. I mean, are you kidding me? It’s two and a half years later. What is the endgame here? … There is no process to decertify an election that took place two and a half years ago. The way you stop this growing totalitarianism is to win the next election, but everything they’re doing is set up to lose the next election.”

I appeared last night on I’m Right, with Jesse Kelly on First TV to talk about something you never would expect – the various indictments of Donald Trump, particularly in Fulton County, Georgia.

As always, I enjoyed being on the show because Jesse gives me space to speak my mind without being buttonholed into a 3-4 minute segment or being constantly interrupted.

The segment, in which I warn that the focus on relitigating 2020 is a dead end and that there is no endgame to decertify the 2020 election, comes as a poll was released this morning by AP showing a massive partisan gap between Trump’s support within the GOP versus nationally in a general election:

“While most Republicans — 74% — say they would support him in November 2024, 53% of Americans say they would definitely not support him if he is the nominee. Another 11% say they would probably not support him in November 2024.”

The rally-around effect is a trap, as I’ve written many times.

Anyway, here’s the video of my segment:

Partial Transcript (auto-generated, may contain transcription errors)

Jesse Kelly: …. Joining me now, Cornell Law professor, founder of Legal Insurrection, Bill Jacobson. Bill what irregularities, I guess I’ll put it in a very political term. What irregularities are you seeing with this whole Atlanta mess we’ve got going?

WAJ: I think what you just witnessed on the clip you showed is the smugness and the arrogance of people who think they have absolute power and can employ it with impunity. And that’s what really is shocking about what’s happening in Georgia. By contrast, Jack Smith, who I think has been accused of the same thing, was relatively sedate compared to what went on in Georgia. I mean, they’re already announcing, we’re putting his mugshot out there, they’re gonna turn it into a circus. They have thrown the kitchen sink, not just at Donald Trump, but it 18 people who surround him and put 30 people on some level of notice that they’re unindicted co-conspirators. So what’s going on in Georgia is very different than even Jack Smith has done in Miami and DC

… There is no check and balance at the state level in deep blue cities and deep blue states. Remember these, Alvin Bragg and Fani Willis, are two local prosecutors. Alvin Braggs is a stale seven year old claim. Put that aside, but Fani Willis is charging a major presidential candidate with election fraud for a federal election. Not a state election, not a local election, for which he is already being charged by the Department of Justice, the US Department of Justice. This is piling on. This is trying to create a backstop that if for some reason Jack Smith is not successful, that she will be there waiting to get Trump and the people around him. This is very dangerous stuff….

Kelly: Okay, Bill, she [Trump’s lawyer] looks worried. What if you’re Trump’s lawyer or just a concerned citizen? Which of these cases should genuinely worry you the most? Or are they all worrisome? I don’t see how he gets out of any of these because of the despicable system he’s involved in.

WAJ: I think they should all worry him. I’ve written since last March that the one that should worry Donald Trump the most was the Miami case, the records case, because it was the least convoluted legal theory. And here you’ve got a RICO claim in Georgia. You’ve got, in DC, you’ve got similar sort of conspiracy claims, which might be subject, probably on appeal, to attack as insufficient. But of course that’s after a trial’s taken place. So yes, I think Trump is in a lot of legal difficulty.

But it’s even more, and this is why the qualitatively, what Fani Willis is doing is so different. She’s named 18 people. She’s indicated there’s 30 unindicted co-conspirators, which means they could be added to the case later on. She is attempting to freeze the Trump wing of the Republican party, which is about half of the party. She’s attempting to freeze them.

We saw this happen in Wisconsin several years ago with the John Doe investigations where a Democrat local prosecutor using the Wisconsin John Doe law, which no longer exists in that form anymore, essentially froze the entire conservative movement by making so many people targets of the investigation. People stopped talking to each other, people stopped doing normal political behavior because they were afraid.

And that’s what Fani Willis is doing. And that’s very different than what even Jack Smith has done. Jack Smith named Donald Trump, and that’s it. Fani Willis is spreading out throughout the Trump wing of the party and making it known that there may be more to come. And so she’s freezing political activity. She’s freezing lawful political activity. because people will be afraid to communicate with each other…..

WAJ: So I think he’s in a lot of legal trouble, and I’ve been saying this on my website for a while and people, you know, attack that. But hey, I live in the real world and the real world is telling us that Donald Trump has a lot of legal problems. He’s probably going to get convicted in one or more of these cases. And people need to wake up and people need to understand what’s happening. And people also need to understand that, while he is not to blame for the hyperpartisan actions of the prosecutors, he left himself very vulnerable. He handed a lot of this stuff to them on a silver platter, and they are now exploiting it. It’s a bad situation.

And now he’s going to roll out, apparently Monday, a new report about Georgia election fraud. I mean, are you kidding me? It’s two and a half years later.

What is the endgame here? Trump supporters don’t seem to understand, what is your endgame? There is no process to decertify an election that took place two and a half years ago. The way you stop this growing totalitarianism is to win the next election, but everything they’re doing is set up to lose the next election. You’ve got to win the next election because Fani Willis and Alvin Bragg and Jack Smith are just the first of a wave of totalitarian attacks using the law enforcement and prosecutorial powers of the state that’s coming our way.

Kelly: Boy, thank you for a sobering message we all needed to hear. Bill, come back soon. I appreciate it.

WAJ: Great. Thank you.

Kelly: What a mess. What a mess. Hey, I know that made you uncomfortable because it made me uncomfortable, but he is right.



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The endgame is disproving charges against him, not swapping the Presidency.

    MTED in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 1:13 pm


    Petrushka in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 3:07 pm

    The endgame is establishing the need for auditable elections.

      MattMusson in reply to Petrushka. | August 16, 2023 at 3:19 pm

      Just ignore the cheating and it will go away.

        Petrushka in reply to MattMusson. | August 16, 2023 at 4:15 pm

        If Trump can prove egregious irregularities, it could result in change. But not every change happens overnight.

          henrybowman in reply to Petrushka. | August 16, 2023 at 5:18 pm

          It’s more like “EVERY change DOES NOT happen overnight.”
          All the bad things we (with conductive headgear) knew had occurred since the first week the effects were reported, they take YEARS to percolate through “the system” until they’re finally acknowledged as true. Hunter’s laptop.
          The wet market. FBI partisanship. Masking. The unvetted vaccine that was not actually a vaccine. The CIA/NSA coup.
          Gee, who woulda thought, cutting off your sexual organs would NOT make you happier! We’re still in at least our fifth year of DUH on that one, with at least two more to go before sanity returns.
          This one may not ultimately be provable because the governmental mechanisms we have in place for proving it have been successfully subverted. But it will come out, nonetheless.
          And that’s when the perpetrators, who all have addresses, will rue their abuse of our civility.

          thad_the_man in reply to Petrushka. | August 16, 2023 at 9:34 pm

          With RINOs change never happens.

        henrybowman in reply to MattMusson. | August 16, 2023 at 5:09 pm

        Apparently, not everyone appreciates succinct sarcasm.

    txvet2 in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 4:33 pm

    The problem with that POV, although I agree that exoneration is the goal, is that you’re aiming at the wrong target. Many, if not most of the “charges” against him are for things he actually did. The thing that must be emphasized above all else is, that NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE/WERE ILLEGAL. The same thing for the other named defendants. The left is trying to criminalize perfectly legal and ordinary activities, like a lawyer giving legal advice to a client. These charges have to be beaten down and destroyed or the whole legal system is annihilated.

    I think too many people are focused on the election. That’s important, but it’s secondary at this particular moment in time. The focus now has to be on refuting this attack on Trump. Once that’s done, the issue of who will be the nominee and whether people will back Trump or not will pretty much resolve itself. Election fraud will have to be fought as a separate but concurrent issue.

      The left is trying to criminalize perfectly legal and ordinary activities, like a lawyer giving legal advice to a client.

      Well, yeah, they have been for years. Look how they try to criminalize firearm ownership, expressing an opinion that conflicts with the government’s, religious observance that doesn’t deify the State, asking questions of officials (especially, but not exclusively, school boards), and petitioning authorities for the redress of grievances.

      They already view the exercise of Constitutional rights — e.g. consulting legal counsel, not consenting to warrantless searches, remaining silent (or pleading the 5th), etc. — as de facto proof of criminal acts.

      When exercising your rights can be used as evidence of criminal wrongdoing, criminalizing the actual exercise is just the logical next step.

        txvet2 in reply to Archer. | August 16, 2023 at 5:13 pm

        And in those cases, the defense is that the activities are not illegal, not that they didn’t actually happen, which was my point.

        rhhardin in reply to Archer. | August 16, 2023 at 6:06 pm

        I’ve only skimmed the contested electors law, but learned a lot from a series in VEEP where an unexpected person picked the President after all else failed. Apparently the tradition and the rules aren’t perfectly aligned so you can come down on any side you want.

        VEEP by the way was making fun of the idiocy of the voters as its premise, which is how the right can love the series.

      Cumulatively the Trump cases is about using the judicial system and charges of post-election day “fraud” to influence the political system going-forward,

      The question is posed, what is the end game? Fair question. The endgame for the pending cases is to discredit and defeat the tactic being employed by the party in power to use criminal charges as part of the election process. This means that Trump needs to prevail in these cases and in some instances the case result will depend on fact-questions, not just legal arguments..

      In Georgia, it means that the defense team must devote some energy to show that substantial questions exist about how election processes in the state were impacted by a judicially mandated system that was achieved through a consent decree in a case brought by the national Democrats against the State of Georgia. The mandate altered the validation of absentee ballots made it next to impossible to determine whether the ballot cast were actually cast by the registered voter. Counties in Georgia including Fulton County employed drop boxes where persons who had applied for ballots could drop them in the boxes which were unattended. It has been alleged that validation of those ballots involved checking the signatures on the ballot envelopes against the signatures on the applications for the absentee ballots where in the past they were validated against the signature on the registration form on file. The signatures on file were bypassed for whatever reason. This process left a large hole in ballot security issues.

      The 19 defendants need to invest time and effort into determining not whether Biden carried the state of Georgia by less than 12,000 votes but whether there existed and still exists a question about whether anyone knows if the lax security systems in place in some of the counties in 2020 led to a result in which no one could have any reasonable confidence. There are also questions involving the administration of vote counting, which created circumstances that cast doubt on the voting. It was never principally a question about whether the ballots were counted accurately but whether the systems created enough loopholes to allow people who wanted to stuff the ballot box was enabled by the reduced laxity of the system in place in 2020. The defendants do not have to prove that the election was stolen, only that it was reasonable to question the election result.

      There is an endgame that does not involve 2024. It is to defeat the tactic of using the judicial system to scrutinize post-election day conduct about the last election to control or substantially influence the result in the next.

      Fatkins in reply to txvet2. | August 18, 2023 at 3:31 am

      Are you being serious? Are you suggesting that fraud , forgery, holding classified docs etc were fine. What an absurd statement

    jhkrischel in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 7:04 pm

    It is true that it has never been proven in a court of law that the 2020 election was stolen.

    That doesn’t mean that the 2020 election wasn’t stolen.

    We built systems that not only made fraud possible, it made fraud inevitable.

    Elections are guilty until proven innocent.

      So these systems need to be dismantled and rebuilt. Gov. DeSantis (and Gov. Scott before him) did that in Florida. It IS doable. But instead of fixing the problem, Only Trumpers just want revenge and some kind of miracle that magically places Trump in the WH . . . circa 2020. Time travel or something? Who knows? It makes no sense and is not possible. In any way. At all. 2020 is over. What is not over is 2024, and instead of focusing on cleaning up elections in these key states, they are wailing about how Trump was robbed in 2020. I just don’t get it. Why would you stomp your feet and throw a fit over something that cannot be undone rather than channel that energy into something that CAN be done? It’s illogical and emotional and, frankly, lazy as hell. Whining on comment sections is easy, doing the work to fix the problems is less easy. So they choose to whine. Pathetic.

        Azathoth in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 9:46 pm

        Why is it that you can’t understand that the way to get these issues fixed is to keep talking about the most current egregious example? If we shut up who will mention them? Not the nevertrumpers–they’re content with licking crumbs from their leftist masters feet and only occasionally whining that they’re not getting steak.

        What the left did –what they’re doing must be kept right in front of as many faces as possible.

        Now to your foolishness. Yes, it would be wonderful if the right grew a spine and fought back –marching in and arresting the junta and all thetraitors that illegally sat Biden in the White House. It would be great if the charged and jailed them all and the person who actually won was sworn in to the office that is rightfully his.

        No one wants time travel, you’re just trying to make people sound ridiculous with farcical statements derived from your own desperate need to defend this insane status quo.

        And, for the record, cheaters have been removed from office before in this country.

        What keeps them in office now, is people purportedly on our side refusing to use the avenues available and simply accepting the diktats of the corrupt officials that stand in the way.

          Dr.Dave in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 12:02 am

          I am perplexed on how the 2020 election can not be reiterated when Trump is literally being charged for saying it was rigged. You guys are generally spot on but I fail to see your logic and common sense here.

          Milhouse in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 12:09 pm

          Now to your foolishness. Yes, it would be wonderful if the right grew a spine and fought back –marching in and arresting the junta and all thetraitors that illegally sat Biden in the White House. It would be great if the charged and jailed them all and the person who actually won was sworn in to the office that is rightfully his.

          That is something that simply cannot happen, no matter what you prove, or how strongly you prove it. Even if you could definitively prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that enough votes in enough states were invalid that the outcome should have been different, it’s over. Biden is the legal president. At the election for president, which took place not on Nov-3-2020 but on Dec-14, a majority of the electors voted for Biden, and on Jan-6-2021 the congress witnessed those votes being counted and certified the result. Nothing can change that. Proving that those people shouldn’t have been electors, or that congress shouldn’t have counted their votes won’t change the fact that they were and it did.

        You paint with a really wide brush blaming “only trumpers” for everything, from poor election practice to the lack of mint chocolate chip ice cream in the grocery store. Give it a rest. It really taints this otherwise good website.

        (I am not a Trump supporter. I haven’t decided. If he is the nominee, I will vote for him. In the Primary, we’ll see. There are questions he needs to answer: personnel choices, COVID handling, etc. Hopefully in a debate setting so other candidates can agree or disagree. I want to hear that.)

        We are capable of holding multiple things in our heads at once. Trump is being railroaded by corrupt DA’s abusing the legal system. He needs our support for these things.

        For voting, I engage with my state representation and federal representatives. Lindsay Graham is a zero, but the others at least listen. I push for changes to the election system, since I have witnessed voter fraud right in front of me. HAVA has many problems. REAL ID has problems. I have watched voter registrars accept REAL ID as proof of citizenship when they are not. I know non-citizens who have REAL ID’s. There are many things that need to change in the way voter registration is done, the voting process, and counting. All things being equal, we should be using paper ballots, with voting on Election *Day*, and only allowing absentee voting in specific circumstances. Mail-in voting can work, if it is secured properly, and required to be in the hands of the voting officials on election *day*. Right now, I know of no state that has secure mail-in voting.

        Before voter lists became widely available, I was one of the activists who went to various town halls after every election to record who votes. The funny thing about knowing who votes is you also know who is registered and doesn’t vote. With lax checks on absentee voting, it is easy to vote multiple times with no way to trace that it was done. Now I can buy that data for an entire congressional district in my state for under $100. Absentee voting needs to be secured.

        Gov Kemp said, “For nearly three years now, anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward – under oath – and prove anything in a court of law.” Anyone else catch the weasel words? “under oath – and prove anything in a court of law” when the main lawsuit was dismissed for lack of standing? How do you address that for the future cases? Change state law to redefine who has standing in such cases? I do not like politicians who use weasel words.

        There are multiple things at play here, and we need to work on them. We don’t need the constant “OMG Trumpers ” or even “Desanctimonious ” because we need every vote to win 2024, and everyone to the right of Romney (bad choice?) to volunteer to GOTV, work election day, count ballots, canvass neighborhoods, check voter rolls, register voters, man phone & text banks, etc.

        The “enemy” is the Democrats. The “enemy” is Joe Biden and everyone like him. Whoever the nominee is needs to set back progressivism by 150 years, and that will not be easy. It will take everyone and will still be a long, muddy march through the swamp.

      Sanddog in reply to jhkrischel. | August 16, 2023 at 7:51 pm

      Fraud is baked into the system. The democrats have made it impossible to obtain proof. In order to fix the system, we need to win elections in the majority of states but that pesky election fraud makes that difficult. I guess we need to subvert the system, cheat better and have judges willing to ignore the rule of law before we have enough people in place to change the system for national elections. How many people are just going to give up and stop voting because it’s apparent it doesn’t matter how they vote, it matters who counts the votes?

        leoamery in reply to Sanddog. | August 17, 2023 at 12:40 am

        I guess we need to subvert the system, cheat better and have judges willing to ignore the rule of law …”

        To do all these things requires gaining control of loc all and preferably state govts.

        How involved are you? Willing to give up your job and work for your county’s election department? How else are you going to ‘cheat’?

      Are you kidding me? So the new standard of proof is, there’s no evidence to prove the election was stolen so that means it was stolen?

      “Elections are guilty until proven innocent.” . . . especially when the guy I want to win loses.

      Holy crap.

        healthguyfsu in reply to [email protected]. | August 17, 2023 at 2:07 am

        I hope you are actually here in good faith, but either way, you aren’t wrong about the loony Trumpets on here.

        They should just go live on the internet shit blog island and stay there.

        No, we have good reason to believe the election was stolen, and the rule ought to be that election results are presumed invalid until proven valid, rather than the reverse. To overturn a victory by 5000 votes it ought to be enough to show, on the balance of probabilities, that there were at least 5001 invalid votes cast. It should not be necessary to prove (which is impossible) that those invalid votes were all for the winner, and rather than having to identify the specific invalid votes it should be sufficient to present a statistical argument, e.g. identifying 25,001 votes that have a 20% probability of being invalid.

          bhwms in reply to Milhouse. | August 18, 2023 at 10:40 am

          Which is why we have a certification process, yes? Varies depending on state, but there is a chain of things that must be verified and validated by multiple people before the results at that level can be used and recorded by the next level up.

          When I did elections, there were 3 certifications that had to happen before my town’s numbers were considered valid;
          – The moderator had to certify that the tallies for each candidate & office were correct, and the ballots fell into buckets like: electronically counted, hand counted, absentee ballots cast.
          – The Town Clerk had to certify that all the workers were properly sworn in, that the number of ballots received were accounted for (Ballots printed and delivered under seal = Ballots sent to absentee voters + number of ballots cast + number spoiled + number left over. If they ran out of ballots, there was space to account for additional ballots printed. They also had to box the ballots up before we left for the night with 2 witnesses, one had to be from the Town Council, and the boxes were sealed with special tape.
          – The Checklist Supervisors had to certify that the checklist used was the right one, properly posted before the election, the number of voters checked (voted) on the checklist (which means they received a ballot), number of same-day registrants added to the checklist, counts of R, D, U voters at the beginning of the day, number of R D U who registered that day, and the final number of R D U.

          You can see that several of these numbers need to cross check. We were always off by a small number – 3 or 4 in a town of 10000 voters and 5-6000 votes cast. Those were usually attributed to someone checking in, taking a ballot, and not voting (either taking the ballot with them or turning it in to the wrong person. We could tell this by the different tallies.

          We also did all this before we left for the evening. The moderator & town clerk could report the numbers, but they weren’t official until the state had the certificates. We called the State Police when we were done & they would send a car with 2 troopers to pick everything up. Anything we kept was put into the town vault. As a checklist supervisor I got to keep the checklist for a couple of weeks to record voter history and do our quality check on the history & new registrations. More than once I had to traipse down to Town Hall because someone showed up and demanded to inspect the actual checked checklist, and I still had it. Came with the job. $600/year came out to about $5/hr. After one year, the checked checklist was sent to the State Archives.

    inspectorudy in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 8:08 pm

    He will produce all of the evidence that is floating around the internet but it has no legal value. It has not been substantiated in a court of law, right or wrong, and will have no effect on any trial. It will show that he believed that the election was stolen and that will eliminate the claim that he was trying to subvert the election. But he will not be able to rehash the 2020 election in court.
    We all think that he should be able to but the judges will not allow it. Inten is the biggie and the prosecutors cannot prove intent. He will be convicted in at least one trial maybe two and will have to appeal them. What happens after a conviction I do not know but the judges he has are all left-wing and will probably try to arrest him with no bail.

      thad_the_man in reply to inspectorudy. | August 16, 2023 at 9:37 pm

      It was never tested in a court. Claims wre either “not ripe”, or laches attached.

      Dr.Dave in reply to inspectorudy. | August 17, 2023 at 12:09 am

      Have you been hiding under a rock. There has been tons of evidence the election was stolen in potentially various. The courts refused to evaluate the evidence and most cases were never even heard. I thing only 3 of 60ish went to trial and at least one of those one. I’m pretty sue the legal battle to inspect pristine mail in ballots still exist to this day. If there is no there there why has Fulton county faught the inspection for going on 3 years?

      broomhandle in reply to inspectorudy. | August 17, 2023 at 8:28 am

      I think you’re right. If his defense is “I believe the election was stolen”, then more of this nonsense may help bolster that lie. Meanwhile, while Trump takes care not his legal issues, he will cost the GOP another election.

    No “disproving charges” is not the end game, because in these jurisdictions Trump will be convicted on something, no matter what the evidence shows. That is the Democrats end game. Even if he can win on appeal, that will not happen until after the election. The further end game is to divert as much time and money from the election to the legal troubles and that is guaranteed to happen and is already happening. In fact, I have seen no Trump ads against Biden, just DeSantis So far, this is not the campaign of a winner..

    avital2 in reply to rhhardin. | August 17, 2023 at 8:23 am

    the goal is to find and block avenues of fraud. if people say it doesn’t exist, system continues corrupted. everyone agrees fraud exists, so how is it perpetrated and how is it blocked? integrity of elex should be an issue near top of every voter’s list.

We keep asking our vote counters to do more and more complicated things.

In Los Angeles, you can walk into any vote center (LA is geographically huge), give them your name, and they will had you the ballot for your specific precinct, with your local referenda, your local council, your local school board, etc.

Think about how hard that makes recounts in LA County. If a district needs to do a hand recount for their local council election, the actual ballots are scattered all over LAC.

People keep assuming that the counting will not be a problem, or that the problems will all accrue to our side’s benefit.

Meanwhile, the hard deadline for certification is fixed. There is no longer enough time between election *season* and the certification to get the counting done accurately.

    rhhardin in reply to Ann in L.A.. | August 16, 2023 at 1:21 pm

    It’s designed to be unauditable. Computers make it unauditable in principle, as well.

    Walk in your own precinct on the election day, they strike your name on their list, and you vote on paper was the last auditable system. Ballot goes in labelled box with chain of custody.

    Computers don’t even speed anything up. As the population goes up, you also get more vote counters. Everything works at the same speed as it used to in olden times.

      Ann in L.A. in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 3:00 pm

      L.A. has a hybrid system. When you walk in, they print a ballot with a QR code for your precinct. You take that and feed it into a machine. You vote on the touch screen, and then print your ballot. You get to see the hard copy and check it, before feeding it into the tabulator.

        thad_the_man in reply to Ann in L.A.. | August 16, 2023 at 3:15 pm

        When i was a college student registering for courses, they used a system similar to our voting systems. Somehow they managed to do registration with very few errors. Why can’t our government do the same?

          CommoChief in reply to thad_the_man. | August 16, 2023 at 4:40 pm

          Not sarcasm. B/C the students are paying for the services being provided and the school has an incentive to get it done correctly the first time or the school is left with chaos with over subscribed and under subscribed classes.

          Because the voting system is not created to be efficient but to be manipulated through back doors.

        avital2 in reply to Ann in L.A.. | August 17, 2023 at 8:29 am

        you the voter feed it into a printer not a tabulator. ballots are physically counted (not tabulated) and driven to counting centers where they are tabulated. i have worked in L A voter locations for last 3 yrs specifically to figure out who does what.

          avital2 in reply to avital2. | August 17, 2023 at 10:02 am

          to clarify, when you insert printed ballot back into machine before leaving, it is only counted as a ballot cast, not a vote for xyz. when polls close ballots are collected, totals of ballots cast checked against machine totals, packed up and sent to counting center when votes are tabulatd.

      amwick in reply to rhhardin. | August 16, 2023 at 4:35 pm

      In GA the ballots get sucked into a giant black Dominion machine. After that, who knows.

        MajorWood in reply to amwick. | August 16, 2023 at 5:58 pm

        Or a building somewhere gets blowed to pieces by an RV parked next to it.

        Sanddog in reply to amwick. | August 16, 2023 at 7:53 pm

        After the count, they decide if they need that handy bag of ballots left in the trunk of a rental car they “suddenly” discover.

          Why do you guys think this is anything new with Democrats or solely against Trump. Democrats are and have always been horrific election cheaters. I know I’ve told this story before, but it was kind of a watershed moment for me in terms of understanding just how dubious and heartless Democrats are in ensuring they “win” elections.

          Edgar Allen Poe, back in 1849 was found dead in a Baltimore gutter, and the prevailing opinion was that he was repeatedly fed bathtub gin (or some other liquor) to vote over and over for the Democrats. This Democrat strategy was then called “cooping.”

          I am so seriously sick of everyone pretending that election fraud just happened suddenly in 2020 to “get Trump.” It didn’t. It’s long-standing, and we have always known about it. That’s why our side has spoken for nearly a century about fraud-proof landslides. They cheat. They always have and they always will. It’s not about Trump, per se, so just stop it.

          I thought Trump was sliding to a fraud-proof landslide in 2020, and to my mind he did. But my mind is not the law, nor is it legitimate cause to toss out millions of actual votes. Look, election fraud is HUGE, it’s always been huge, and it’s usually been confined to sketchy, horrific cities and districts (think Chicago, New York City, New Orleans). People have died in these (and many other) cities for not playing the game.

          Why are we all pretending this is somehow new? Or somehow more scandalous than any other steal that’s occurred pretty much since this country’s inception? Why does this particular cheat hit people like it’s totally new? Do they not know the history of their own country? It’s so weird to me.

          Azathoth in reply to Sanddog. | August 16, 2023 at 9:57 pm

          Pretending like it’s something new? What are you talking about? You can say this–

          ‘Democrats are and have always been horrific election cheaters.”

          And chastise us for wanting to do something about it.

          Trump DID win in a landslide in 2020. The fraud was laughably visible, pervasive and completely ignored by the media, the left, and the GOPe. We watched people bringing in plastic grocery bags of ballots in little red wagons while the polls were ‘closed’ and the poll watchers had been sent home.

          If we had stood firm then, we wouldn’t be living through this hell now.

          A lot of us were the people trying to stop the steal in FLORIDA in 2000.

          Did you know that the Demc cheated in the Miami mayoral election immediately prior to 2000 –in one of the counties they wanted to count over and over again as they manufactured more votes for Gore?

          The Democrat cheat was removed from office. IN FLORIDA, right before the 2000 election.

          Milhouse in reply to Sanddog. | August 17, 2023 at 12:21 pm

          We watched people bringing in plastic grocery bags of ballots in little red wagons while the polls were ‘closed’ and the poll watchers had been sent home.

          Really? Where exactly did you watch that happen?

          Milhouse in reply to Sanddog. | August 17, 2023 at 12:22 pm

          Fuzzy, Dems have always been doing this, but in 2020 they stepped up their game. It was on a whole new scale.

          Oh, I completely agree. But what is being done to ensure it doesn’t happen again? From what I can see Trump and his loyalists don’t seem to care about future elections, just the past one in 2020. Even if they could prove it was stolen (which they cannot), then what? Trump won’t be “restored” to the presidency, and it would change none of the things that enabled this much larger scale than usual cheating by Democrats. I just don’t get what they are saying, I guess, because to me it sounds like they have an unachievable goal and are simply ignoring that the same thing will happen again because they are doing absolutely nothing to ensure that it doesn’t. Seems self-defeating and kind of stupid to me.

    avital2 in reply to Ann in L.A.. | August 17, 2023 at 8:25 am

    i have worked in L A system for last 3 years. the ballots go from poll location to central counting centers every night so not as far-flung as you think.

Given the stark differences in living standards between 2016-2020 and 2020-now, who are these 54% that would vote to continue the shit they’ve just lived through these last few years? 🤔

Maybe those doing polling might like to poll actual grownups capable of thinking for themselves?

    henrybowman in reply to mailman. | August 16, 2023 at 5:07 pm

    They’re there.
    They still wear masks.
    They still post shit like: “The question is whether “privacy” should be considered a “right” (surely, nations differ between what are considered “rights”, ask the parents of Uvalde), and if so, how much. Cameras in every subway car and every street corner might do a lot to reduce crime (probably already so in China). Why should the interiors of houses be conceptually different? Is “my space, not the country’s” a real thing, or just arrogance that isn’t supported in totalitarian states?” (This was posted today, by a genuine certified genius that I’ve known for 50 years, so much for IQ based sociology.)

    Dr.Dave in reply to mailman. | August 17, 2023 at 12:15 am

    Because it was the biggest cheat. Why do you downplay anything associated with Trump?

Caving to the radical left won’t win you ANY elections.

    Paul in reply to wendybar. | August 16, 2023 at 3:00 pm

    It sure won’t. But what it will do is convince a lot of dyed-in-the-wool conservative voters to stay home, because they’re so disgusted with your weakness that they’ll never vote for you in a million years.

      mailman in reply to Paul. | August 16, 2023 at 5:07 pm

      Democrats have shown that it doesn’t matter how many people vote. They can just stop vote counting, kick poll watchers out, magic up some convenient ballot drops and no one will question the sudden changes in vote tallies.

You push back as hard and as long as you can to get the corruption out and the open. Yes, there is nothing to do about overturning the results of the election, but the trap is NOT exposing all of the fraud that you can.
I am hearing very little about the thousands of instances where a month before the election voters had their addresses changed in to official systems, and then a at the election they were changed back. This allows a lot of requested ballots that appear legal to be sent out but they are going to fraudulent addresses and then when the address for the legal voter is changed back it appears it is all on the up and up.
If you do expose things like this they will continue to be used and the attitude of “Whelp, we can’t do anything about it, let’s move on” is the problem!! NOT the people who want it all exposed.

    Before retirement, I worked in change management for large scale data system that served sites in about 40 states and several countries where we had service facilities. The sites couldn’t all dial into a single source data server, there was a hierarchy of servers that required (sometimes) an overnight up to several days to synch the databases. I hadn’t thought of that in years, until the other day when I fired up an old computer and my Opera browser logged into my sync account and I had the direction set wrong – and all the book marks I’d painstakingly updated or deleted, and retrogressed them. I suspect it’s that kind of thing that happens when a master voter registration db goes to sync up with the mail vendor and it retrogresses. The result is chaos of course – and who knows if it’s just an ID10T error, or something that’s done deliberately to gum up the election that they’ll later plead out as an “oversight”. We used to prevent machine based errors / shenanigans by a rigorous system of audits, verifications, and application of “do not break” seals, stamped and dated with the unique ID of the auditor. They’d even cover data/ethernet/USB ports with stickers to prevent their alteration / internet connection. All the machines have done is introduce myriad more opportunities for data manipulation. Nothing will ever beat paper ballot, 1 day voting, ID required, hand tally with observers and sign offs for QC.

      bhwms in reply to MrE. | August 18, 2023 at 10:49 am

      “They’d even cover data/ethernet/USB ports with stickers to prevent their alteration / internet connection.”

      True security requires epoxy in those ports, or someone going into the device itself and snipping/cutting leads. Stickers are frowned upon because a) someone has a roll of them, and for this purpose they rarely have recorded security numbers on them, b) “secure” sites have had instances where the manufacturer used the wrong glue & the stickers fell off, and c) anyone can go on the internet and buy identical stickers – even with the right security numbers – or buy the embossing machine to duplicate the numbers. Probably from China.

      But yes, to your point – a bank or phone company would never allow this level of lax security over their financial/billing data. You better believe they have all these auditing capabilities in place to ensure their data isn’t being manipulated.

      “Nothing will ever beat paper ballot, 1 day voting, ID required, hand tally with observers and sign offs for QC.”


The problem with that thinking is that if you don’t identify and fix the problems from the previous election, they’ll just steal the next one too

Disagree 100%. It’s important to know, even if it cannot be changed. Sweeping it under the rug is NOT the solution, especially if we want an informed electorate.

There is no process to decertify an election that took place two and a half years ago. The way you stop this growing totalitarianism is to win the next election…

I respectfully disagree.
There is a huge defect in that line of thinking: You can NOT win the next election if you do not address and resolve what happened in 2020. Not Trump. Not DeSantis. Not anyone.
And a lot of irregularities happened in 2020.

The endgame is to fix the elections so that voters not party activists determine who governs.

That means fixing the voter rolls so that only qualified voters (no dead people, non-citizens, or non-residents in the district) are allowed to vote.

No ballot harvesting or drop boxes or any other system that takes away the value of voters and puts it in the hands of ballot stuffers.

Valid picture ID to vote and for absentee ballots use last 4 digits of ss number or comparable security.

If the GOP is fortunate enough to win put the Democrat big city voting under DOJ (a purged DOJ) control with Federal Marshalls observing the ballot tallys and securing the ballots when counting is paused or completed.

I don’t expect Biden to be kicked out now, but I do expect people who you can prove engaged in voter fraud to be punished.

You RINOs let Dems steal the election to get rid of Trump. They think they can put the genie back in the bottle and get Dems to stop cheating — get real.

Seems like you’re happy with people outside the Capitol who didn’t set foot in the Capitol building or do anything violent get sent off to gulags, while people who burn down parking lot’s go free. Or people who are given guided tours of the building by Capitol police.

Furthermore it seems like you think that democracy should not let to the mercy of the voters.

    healthguyfsu in reply to thad_the_man. | August 16, 2023 at 5:37 pm

    Who’s a RINO? Does that make you a true Republican then?

    Doesn’t your side keep saying that pretty much the whole GOP is a grift now…would that make them all “Republicans in Name Only” or would that make you the RINO and them the GOPe….something to ponder.

    Make up your minds about GOPe vs RINO or do you think that they are somehow additive?

      The odd part is that many of those who are calling others “RINOs” and “GOPe” aren’t and have never been Republicans themselves – they’re mostly Perotistas, and are (and have been since at least the ’90’s) literally opposed to the Republican Party as an entity. And, naturally, since they don’t know better, they include independents who don’t agree with them.

        Azathoth in reply to txvet2. | August 17, 2023 at 9:29 am

        I’m sorry, but how the hell would any of you leftists know what Republicans are?

        What is a RINO? A person whose policies tend to reinforce the agenda of the left while draped in Republican trappings –see nevertrumpers for an example

        What is the GOPe? The GOP elite is that part of the Republican party that sees the actual opinions of rank and file Republicans as an impediment –see Jonah Goldberg complaining that ‘small’ donors expect to be listened to.


        Now head back to your leftist fever swamp and explain it to your comrades.

          txvet2 in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 1:32 pm

          This coming from the supporter of a candidate who’s running to the left of the field. Throw all the lies you want – too many of you Trumpbots have bragged about being Perotistas and “independents”. None of you core Trumpbots are actually Republicans (and, as I have said many times, neither am I, although I vote in Republican primaries – we can do that in Texas). Of course you call everybody you don’t agree with “leftists”. It absolves you from dealing with the truth.

      Coolpapa in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 16, 2023 at 7:03 pm

      Anyone thinking in terms of Republican/Democrat right now is woefully out of touch.

        healthguyfsu in reply to Coolpapa. | August 16, 2023 at 9:38 pm

        That’s a fair comment but you have to have a voting bloc to win an election. If you label one group RINOs, another group GOPe, another group Dems who do the Trumpets have left to vote with?

        The most you could have is a mythical faction of the country that couldn’t be more than 22% and that’s an overestimate. 22% is the approximate percentage of registered independents, but many of those don’t break Trump’s way.

          wendybar in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 5:01 am

          That’s the problem. We are a voting block without a home because both sides suck.

          thad_the_man in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 5:50 am

          Let me point out that in a lot of European countries 22% is good enough to become the dominate party in their parliament.

          In recent times two Republican candidates drew more support from blue collar areas then most: Reagan and Trump. One candidate attracted more blacks and hispanics then any other –Trump.

          The party used to talk all the time about expanding the party. To where? Trump expanded the party more than any other candidate. So who do you want to expand the party with. What’s left are the purple haired transgenders? Good luck with that.

          healthguyfsu in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 1:47 pm

          This is America, thad.

          22% is right in the area where Perot landed and did nothing but get Clinton elected.

      thad_the_man in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 6:32 am

      When I wqas young, Illinois was a hot bed of conservatism. Phyllis Schafley, Phil Crane … Republican governors rule the rule forever. Then along came Goerge “Let’s get rid of the death penaty” Ryan. Now every statewide office is forever democrat and will be for the long future. This even tough a democratic governor was impeached.

      You tell me what a RINO is or GOPe is. In fact you kind of sound like a Dednocrat saying they don’t know what “woke” means.

This is my problem with conservatives. You have been whipped and beaten for so long that you don’t know how to fight or you don’t want to fight. You think you’re fighting now when you take on educational institutions or constantly complaining about government corruption, but when it comes to actually fighting it you tuck tail. It was the Asians who fought against affirmative action, not you white conservatives. You botched about it in your magazines at your country clubs, but when it came to actually fighting against blacks abd the white Democrats who kept pushing affirmative action you balked.

It wasn’t you conservatives who really pushed back against all this LGBT nonsense, it was a lone baker in Colorado who simply said he wouldn’t bake a cake. You conservatives in the mainstream were trying to get the rest of us to make peace with the LGBT deviants, but now the pendulum is starting to swing against that because everyday Americans gave grown tired of it.

You really didn’t want to have Roe v. Wade overturned because it gave you something to bitch about. Now that’s its overturned you don’t want to do the hard work of changing minds away from the blatant murder of unborn babies.

And now, you want us to forget about the 2020 election, which we ALL know is fraudulent. And no, the fraud didn’t start in 2020. It started in 2016, when Trump was sworn and both Leftists and NeverTrumpers conspired to turn Trump into a one-term president. Russian collusion was a lie. The impeachment over a phone call was a lie. The COVID BS was a lie. January 6 was a lie. State laws were overturned or changed to make mail-in balloting much easier. The 2nd impeachment was a lie. And the list goes on. The amount of evil that was done to ensure Trump didn’t win in 2020 – and frankly, he still won but it was stolen from right in front of us in broad daylight – is unfathomable. And they’re still doing it with all these indictments.

Whenever I have these interactions with conservatives I always ask, “What exactly have you conserved?” And I don’t see anything anywhere that has been conserved and maybe that’s by design because to conserve means you must fight. If you don’t reiterate you are conceding defeat to the Democrats and are complicit in their theft of the 2020 election, as well as the the remaining vestiges of constitutionalism and republicanism in this country. Don’t try to put that on any Trump supporter. Just look in the mirror.

    Isolden in reply to chrisboltssr. | August 16, 2023 at 4:31 pm

    I accidentally downvoted you, I’m sorry. Thank you for saying all of the above. Nothing will change and the cheating will keep on if everyone looks the other way. We deserve better then that.

    “it was a lone baker in Colorado who simply said he wouldn’t bake a cake. ”

    YES! It is the lone individuals that stand up. Right now, it’s parents of kids damaged by hormones that are on the front lines of the trans fight.

    Politically, we are all depending on Trump to be strong and shine the light on the dirty voting practices and invalid elections. I hope to God he has a strong backup behind him.

    It takes an individual.

    (Not a freaking village, even if it is conservative. Villages tend to sit around and gossip but do little.)

    healthguyfsu in reply to chrisboltssr. | August 16, 2023 at 5:33 pm


    So conservatives are the problem now? I only skimmed the other false dichotomies….like Roe v Wade compared to the 2020 election….that’s laughable on its face and not worth anyone’s time. You sound like Dale from King of the Hill.

    and by the by Dale, what have you done?

“I warn that the focus on relitigating 2020 is a dead end and that there is no endgame to decertify the 2020 election”
True. Likewise, why pursue a murderer, since it will never bring the victim back to life.

    What is Trump doing to pursue the murderer in this scenario? It seems like he’s gone straight to attempting to resurrect the murder victim, no?

      Petrushka in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 4:24 pm

      Trump’s rhetoric is immaterial. What he can change is the perception that election procedures are acceptable. His career may be over, but he can head a movement for change.

      He can put the spotlight on next year’s election.

        He could. But he’s not.

          Coolpapa in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 7:26 pm

          I beg to differ. Everything he’s done, entered the race, leading for the nomination, leading against Biden, not quitting in the face of 4 bogus indictments, and now highlighting the fraud that was 2020. All of it shines a “Yuge” spotlight on next year’s election. The fact that he’s not doing it the way you think it should be done is immaterial.

        healthguyfsu in reply to Petrushka. | August 16, 2023 at 9:40 pm

        What kind of responsible citizen puts anyone, much less a POTUS hopeful, on a pedestal where they never have to be responsible for what they say?

      This is not about Trump. Trump can’t change the system by himself even if he is president, much less if he is a private citizen. It is you that is letting this, the voting fraud, all happen, and it will happen again and again if it is not stopped.

        Me? Wow, that’s awesome! Absolutely nuts that you think I have that much (or ANY) power across numerous states and the federal government, but still pretty awesome.

        If I’m that powerful, though, why aren’t you? Why can’t you stop all this voting fraud happening if my just sitting here in Free Florida is “letting it” happen? I voted for DeSantis (twice), and he cleaned up our elections here just as he promised he would. My super power is voting for someone with whom I agree and who can get things done.

        But, I do have to ask the obvious: If I am all that powerful in your eyes (and again, so flattering!), why can’t you team up with, say, one other person and put an immediate stop to all this voting fraud I am personally let happen? Wouldn’t the two of you be more powerful than little ol’ me? Heck, make it three, four, a million. Surely in those numbers your collective power would far surpass that you’ve credited to me, no? Things that make you go “hmmm.”

          henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 4:58 pm

          We have that collective group. In theory. Unfortunately, they’re called Republicans. And a lot of them subscribe to the Professor’s thesis: “This murder is water under the bridge.” This cannot stand.

          henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 4:59 pm

          Also, a number of people, and even states, did exactly what you suggest. They were disqualified for “lack of standing,” just as I would be. And that’s why I/we can’t.

          But that’s why he and his lawyers (and affiliated legal teams) lost, and why all of this is just piling more losing on top of demonstrable legal hurdles and losses. I don’t understand what you think is legally possible. No judge is going to throw out potentially millions of votes and grant a “do-over” of 2020. It’s just not possible. What is it you people think is going to happen?

          They never got as far as physically examining any of the questionable ballots to even consider whether they were cast legally or not.

          And yes, if they were received after closing time then they should be discounted.

          If illegally filed they absolutely should be removed from all of the legally cast ballots.

          Every fraudulently cast ballot disenfranchises every single legal voter in America by diminishing their importance to practically being worthless and a pointless exercise if all it takes to win an election is to swamp the field with bogus ballots.

      henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 4:55 pm

      First off, why does this entire job fall only on Trump’s plate?
      NOBODY is working to identify and punish the bad actors here.
      And doing this does — yes — require relitigating the 2020 election.
      Besides, for the purposes of this analogy, Trump IS the murder victim here.

        Exactly, and he is only interested in resurrecting the victim (himself). Where is he pushing states to clean up their voter rolls, roll back the covid-era voting shenanigans (he and his DOJ not just allowed but enabled)? Where is he saying ANYTHING about cleaning up elections for 2024? Where was he saying ANYTHING about cleaning them up for 2022? He’s got a huge megaphone, why isn’t he telling his obedient followers to get their act together in their various states and push for reforms? No where. Trump isn’t interested in stopping the next murderer or even in catching the last one; he’s only interested in raising himself, the victim, from the dead. That’s just sad.

          I dunno about you but I suspect a lot of things have to change at the State level and that starts with holding State politicians and executives accountable….and guess who needs to do that? Not one guy in the WH but every day people like you who need to be out there every day demanding their State representatives do their god damn job properly and enforce laws and ensure only those legally able can vote.

          None of this is rocket science but it does appear that it’s just easier to hate on Trump cause that makes you feel better about yourself 🙄

          My state has clean elections, and we can get our votes counted in a single day. All courtesy of our fantastic governor Ron DeSantis (and to be fair, his predecessor Rick Scott also did a lot to clean up our voting rolls and processes).

          My local elected officials are wonderful deep red conservatives just like me. I did my civic duty and voted for them and for DeSantis twice for governor (and Scott once, too–I was in Massachusetts during his first election for governor; working to get Scott Brown elected to Ted Kennedy’s seat to stop ObamaCare, not that it worked out that way, but that was our goal).

          So I’m good. How’s your state doing?

      alaskabob in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 6:17 pm

      He has to continue to show that he believes the election was stolen… this is a defense move. If he knows it wasn’t stolen then he is guilty of trying to overthrow an election he knew he lost. OK… Fuzzy… I believe the election was stolen… that makes be a co-conspirator in the eyes of that Georgia DA.

        I think it was stolen, too, and have always said so. But I also understand that there is no remedy except to ensure it never happens again. That’s where there’s a break between us and the laser-focused on 2020 Only Trumpers. I have zero interest in retribution, revenge, or whatever soothing of Trump’s butt hurt they are squealing for, but I have a huge interest in ensuring this perfidy never occurs again. I see a lot of gnashing of teeth about that past election that will never be overturned or granted a “do-over” or see Trump magically “restored” to the presidency, and absolutely nothing about ensuring it never happens again or correcting the problems (again, many of which were not just permitted by but actually indulged by the then-arrogant Trump administration because he thought he’d win no matter what was going on at the state level. Imagine!).

          I don’t see anyone asking for a “do over”. Stop saying it. Not true. If Trump can show that there WAS significant fraud in GA 2020 and that he was just trying to expose it, he wins his case.

          What? Trump himself wanted a “new election” just eight months ago. That’s a “do-over,” no? This was the same statement in which he said that the 2020 election should be “thrown…out.”

    amwick in reply to henrybowman. | August 16, 2023 at 4:39 pm

    Some clever person on twitter asked Professor Jacobson when was it actually litigated before.. Found it.. for those of you that are on X

      mailman in reply to amwick. | August 16, 2023 at 5:14 pm

      What was the answer (as I’m banned for incitement and saying mean things about pissy liberals I can’t see replies to tweets).

        The cases couldn’t get into or through the legal system. That’s the answer. Each was different, but the bottom line is that no judge is going to throw out potentially millions of legal votes or rule that there is an “election do-over.” Which would be appealed, then ruled on, then appealed, and on. We don’t let our presidency sit open for years, even decades, while court crap plays out. You get that, right? That’s not how things are done here, and it worked in our favor in 2000 and against us in 2020.

        It’s not hard. There is a very short period of time for legal challenges to elections, and that time is LONG past. It’s over. Deal with it. Figure out what is next (and try really hard to focus on some future election . .. like maybe 2024 rather than some new way to crown Trump king of Americalandonia).

Running for President on the stolen 2020 election is a losing gambit, but showing evidence that the election is stolen provides reasonable doubt against the allegations.

The problem, Professor Jacobson, is that the people of this nation, of all political stripes, know that Joseph Robinette Biden is a false president.

The world knows this and is spiraling out of control because the solitary superpower has been laid low by leftist treachery. and it can not be rectified by any other means than rendering the left incapable of such actions and punishing all involved and restoring the president who actually won to office.

You clearly object to this, but your stance is wrong, as it was wrong before.

Accept that, and fight for the restoration of the US.

    SaltyDonnie in reply to Azathoth. | August 16, 2023 at 5:49 pm

    Yep, they are [this close] to admitting that sure, “Biden stole the election, but we have to keep up the fraud or else the country will lose faith in the voting system!” And said without a hint of awareness.

      Azathoth in reply to SaltyDonnie. | August 16, 2023 at 10:11 pm

      “Yep, they are [this close] to admitting that sure, “Biden stole the election, but we have to keep up the fraud or else the country will lose faith in the voting system!””

      This is what Fuzzy says–

      “I think it was stolen, too, and have always said so. But I also understand that there is no remedy except to ensure it never happens again. ”

      Why, in the name of all that’s holy did the RIGHT, the GOPe, start saying, almost from the day after the election that there was no remedy? Of course there was. And they’ve been used. We’ve had presidents picked by the legislatures before.

      And how the hell do you insure it never happens again if you don’t find out exactly what was done and re-work the system to fix it if you don’t talk about it?

      Personally, I think the nevertrumpers and the GOPe are flailing just like their leftist masters are –Trump is, again, succeeding despite their efforts, now they want to jail him.

      Fur talking about the thing the professor, Fuzzy and the rest of them want us to shut up about.

        SaltyDonnie in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 9:52 am

        You’re talking about a procedural remedy that MAY be obtained after a hellish, lengthy legal path to get there, which assumes that people placed to make those decisions on the disputes won’t be 1) partisan and aligned against it and/or 2) bedwetter fence sitters that don’t want “involved” in the “political dispute” and take a pass. That’s like Mark Levin’s constitutional convention arguments where he swears on a stack that the Left won’t hijack it to really screw us by amending the Constitution beyond repair. “What’s your guarantee, Mark, when you want to open the country’s DNA to rewriting, that it won’t be rewritten by the Left to wipe out YOU?”

        SaltyDonnie in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 10:04 am

        You’re right, but the people that can fight have to have the will to, and most of the web based right-wingers will only make comfortable legal challenges. None will pursue voting integrity if you can be criminally charged for it.

        Milhouse in reply to Azathoth. | August 17, 2023 at 12:48 pm

        And they’ve been used. We’ve had presidents picked by the legislatures before.

        No, we haven’t. The state legislatures have no role in choosing a president. Their only role in the election is to set the rules by which the electors are to be chosen. Once they’ve done that (months, years, or even decades before any given election) their role is over.

    alaskabob in reply to Azathoth. | August 16, 2023 at 6:19 pm… we must just “put this behind us and move on”…. just like the Dems in 2000 or 2016… oh… gee…. /s

Suburban Farm Guy | August 16, 2023 at 4:56 pm

“The way you stop this growing totalitarianism…” winning the next election? Trump winning in 2016 really got the totalitarians on a roll. Peter Stzrok’s insurance policy and Schumer’s whirlwind accelerated the Obama banana republic takeover and set the template against any further #Resistance.

It’s going to take a lot more than winning the next election.

At this point, Trump’s best course of action would not be to try to re-litigate the 2020 election, but to show that his efforts following the election were well within his rights and the law.

Of course, there are many people who will not listen to such facts. For them, just provide video and audio of the many many instances of Democrats, including Hillary Clinton, Stacey Abrams, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, etc., making their own claims of election fraud over the years.

Is Trump’s presentation of evidence of election fraud, for the purpose of re-litigating / overturning the 2020 election, OR, is it to silence all those who have claimed 2020 was clean, fair, transparent?

Is the purpose educational? I could see the presentation as valuable IF it were to fire up the base, to get educated on polling, counting, observing, and standing watch through the declaration of the winter – and NOT be lulled into trusting the dem operatives when they send people home early – or prohibit republican poll watchers. IF he presented the evidence TOGETHER with recommendations to combat what he shows to be fraud / methods of cheating, it could have great value – to motivate conservative activists.

We really ought have some basic tenets in poll watching, counting. I.e., we have people watching the count, the facility, the coming and going of workers, receipt of ballots, UNTIL the final count is signed by the designee.

The minute some dem worker starts taping cardboard on the windows to the counting room, we bring in law enforcement, or absent that, secure the facility by force and make citizen’s arrest(s) of the obstructors. And of course, VIDEO everything.

Grrr8 American | August 16, 2023 at 5:12 pm

1) All of these bad-faith prosecutions are themselves relitigating the 2020 election;

2) There is an ever-growing body of evidence that the election was, in fact, stolen via a well-organized national network (see, e.g., Gateway Pundit about Muskegon, MI the past couple of weeks;

3) This isn’t at this point about reversing the 2020 results. Rather, demonstrating that 2020 was stolen is necessary to try to prevent the same thing in 2024.

Many still believe the Deep State / UniParty / corporate media BIG LIE that 2020 was a “free and fair” election. (Same type of folks who still believe that “climate change” is real, and that the “vaccines” are/were “safe and effective.”) That ignorance helps maintain the existence and viability of the nationwide election fraud infrastructure.

I don’t believe that the bulk of election shenanigan issues have been litigated. That is a big part of the problem with letting this go. The courts have not heard most of the cases.. they dismissed them on procedural issues.. They are a part of this problem.

Also Ron Coleman has pointed out another issue.. well here

June 9th tweet. “For all practical purposes, the judiciary has never held federal prosecutors responsible – and certainly not in any meaningful way – for gross unethical law practice, including but in no way limited to prosecutorial misconduct.

We are now reaping what the courts have sown.”

It is so hard to understand why the good Professor wants to let this all slide.

    healthguyfsu in reply to amwick. | August 16, 2023 at 5:24 pm

    He’s not saying that it didn’t happen or it isn’t egregious.

    He’s saying strategically it cannot lead to a winning outcome…and he’s right.

      Why is this so crystal clear to us and so completely incomprehensible to them? I just don’t get what they don’t get, I guess.

        If we get burned by election fraud in 2024, is the response going to be: Okay, well, I guess we’ll try again in 2028?

          Oh no, it’s going to be . . . but 2020! That was never resolved, so we have to keep hammering that (and ignoring everything that made that possible in the first place up to and including the 2024 election–and the ’22 midterms, btw). You people seem addicted to being upset and outraged, not to actually fixing anything.

          henrybowman in reply to Sanddog. | August 16, 2023 at 8:45 pm

          The only way to prevent the same outcome next time is to punish the perpetrators of last time and the times before. Full stop, stamp, wax seal.

          Failure to recognize this puts us in the same club car as SF/NYC loons who are insistent that they will solve the crime problem with reparations, violence interrupters, gun registration, everything EXCEPT keeping the perps behind bars whenever they catch them.

        “Why is this so crystal clear to us and so completely incomprehensible to them? I just don’t get what they don’t get, I guess.”

        Because you’re wrong.

        Whatever you think you are doing, the effect you’re trying to achieve is to get people to stop talking about all the ways the election was screwed with in 2020. Which is what the left wants.

        You think you’re telling people they can’t re-litigate. Everyone knows that. But they also know that every tactic needs to be found, pulled out, examined and made impossible to re-do.

        And talking about that just might get things that needed to be litigated litigated for the first time. But no one wants anything re-litigated.

        Vancomycin in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 17, 2023 at 9:19 am

        Right back at you. Why are you and other fakes so convinced that anyone other than a full on left wing commie will ever be allowed to win another election? Are you all that dense? Tell me how many votes the opposition party got in elections in the Soviet Union or how opposition is treated in china or North Korea and you’ll un

          Vancomycin in reply to Vancomycin. | August 17, 2023 at 9:20 am

          Stupid phone. Maybe understand what will be happening here from now on. All because libs and you birm were happy with the result of getting rid of trump.

Trump had all sorts of shenanigans deployed against his campaign. Exposure of the GA shenanigans is a good thing. If what happens on Monday meets the expectations of actual evidence of shenanigans then Trump will have a tremendous boost. There are still getable voters who have moved on from Trump but are sympathetic to his plight as the victim of shenanigans. There are disaffected d/prog voters who have buyers remorse over Biden.

On Monday if he can provide the ‘receipts’ as the kids say all well and good; frankly it’s past flipping time if he’s been sitting on the info. On the other hand, If it is more ‘kraken’ nonsense and conjecture without actual evidence or if it is a rehash of information already out there but nothing new other than a marketing ploy, that will be far more than merely a disappointment to many. IMO, he will close off the possibility of support in tue primary from the GoP voters looking for delivery of ‘receipts’. The disaffected d/prog with buyers remorse over Biden will also view it negatively, to them he will be another politician who makes a promise but doesn’t keep it.

Let’s all hope this event on Monday is comprised of new info being released that can verify specific instances of elections laws being violated and demonstrates actual election/voter/ballot fraud by specific individuals.

    healthguyfsu in reply to CommoChief. | August 16, 2023 at 5:27 pm

    I don’t think he will provide the receipts.

    Trumpets probably think I’m saying that because he doesn’t have it, but that’s not why I’m saying it.

    His case has nothing to do with whether the election was stolen or not. His lawyers have to be intent on getting not guilty for election tampering from him. Proving election interference from someone else doesn’t get him off the hook. No more than I could murder someone and claim that Hillary Clinton did it, too, so I’m not guilty…even if I could prove her guilt.

      alaskabob in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 16, 2023 at 6:23 pm

      He asked for a state wide recount … something he would not have control over… unlike the Al Gore debacle where a selected heavy-Dem only recount was made. If Trump asked for a specific area and specific terms… different. This is exactly the same spin the Left did with teh Ukraine call because they know it works.

        healthguyfsu in reply to alaskabob. | August 16, 2023 at 9:43 pm

        Trump, via his legal team, is going into a court of law, not your favorite afternoon dose of shit blog fantasy land.

        They won’t put up with that crap precisely because it is not relevant to his guilt or innocence. Your side will probably call that the deep state, but in reality, it’s just legal courtroom proceedings since before any of us were born.

    I sincerely hope that you are right, CammoChief. But if Trump really has a smoking gun, why has he kept it away from us for the past 2 1/2 years? It just doesn’t make any sense.

I stopped by to see what’s going on here and listened to Professor Jacobson’s concise and well-reasoned comments. He’s exactly right. I live in a fairly affluent part of a deep red state. Not one of my friends and neighbors wants another circus around the 2024 election. We want a Republican elected and…I’ll say this slowly…Trump. Cannot. Win. He can’t. Too much baggage. Much of isn’t of his own making, but plenty of it is. Playing chicken with the prosecutors and judges and witnesses and jurors does not endear him to conservatives who want to win the next election. For the sake of our country, stop with the Trump worship and coalesce around someone who has a chance to win the general election.

    From your lips to God’s ears (the real Lord and Savior, not the golden godlet too many around here worship).

      As you worship DeSantis?

        I don’t worship DeSantis at all. Where have I ever said anything about him being ThE OnLy WoN WhO CaN SaVe Us? Or anything even remotely like that? Heck, I didn’t want him to run at all this cycle and have been abundantly clear about that from the beginning. I’ve also been clear that I don’t think his campaign is doing well (and that I think Tim Scott will be the next in line to get chopped down ala 2015-16 since the Stupid Party is just replaying that primary . . . for some reason known only to themselves. The result will be the same in that Trump will be nominated, but this time, he can’t win the general.).

        Where have I said DeSantis is the ONLY one “fighting” for us (even on the culture war front, one of his many strengths)? Oh, right, no where. I don’t think DeSantis is Teh One, like you rabid Trump followers embarrassingly think of Trump (with all the cultish echoes of the Obama zombies and the similarly unAmerican reliance on a single man to “save” you. That’s just shameful for any American. Or should be.). I don’t think that of ANY politician because I understand our Constitutional Republic and that no president has absolute power (something you Only Trumpers seem to ignore, forget, or wish weren’t true), and I know that even a competent executive (i.e. not Trump) will have limits on his power and have to do things Trump is incapable of: restraint, resilience, diplomacy, working well with others, competently assessing underlings and selecting accordingly, seeing blatant treachery right under his nose and snuffing it out promptly, and making swift decisions and following through with equal speed. I could go on, of course, but Trump’s leadership failures are very well known.

        Even as I think DeSantis is up to the job and not the complete incompetent Trump proved to be in these areas, that equates to “worship” how? The second DeSantis suggests “take the guns first, go through due process second” or trashing the Constitution to suit his political goals, I’m done. That’s not worship, that’s having principles and demanding them from elected officials. Politicians are public servants who are expected (or should be) to uphold, protect, and defend our Constitution, so when they fail in that duty, they have to be replaced. That includes DeSantis or anyone else (including, to my mind, Trump).

        Let’s see some receipts on my “worship” of DeSantis. If you can’t provide them, sit down. Sit all the way down.

          No less than you accuse others about Trump. Your comments speak for themselves.

          “I don’t think DeSantis is Teh One, like you Trump followers think of Trump.”

          Where are YOUR receipts? Maybe you should sit down yourself. Or spare the condescension and denigration that is you wont:

          “because I understand our Constitutional Republic and that no president has absolute power (something you Only Trumpers seem to ignore, forget, or wish weren’t true).”

          Aw, I was so hoping you would ask.

          Pretty much every Only Trumper has said exactly that and/or some variation on same: Trump is the ONLY ONE.

          See here, here, here, here, and (a true classic in which “Trump is the only one standing between us and Satan”) here. I can go on, if you like.

          Your obsession is showing. Of course, since you asked for “receipts” about YOU, you were asked to reciprocate, not provide run off to your database to find extreme examples, as if they are the norm. Deceptive! Your disdain for Trump is apparent, and too often it bleeds into other territory.

          Above, you said: “Why is this so crystal clear to us and so completely incomprehensible to them? I just don’t get what they don’t get, I guess.” You don’t get it, by admission, and that matters. Besides the obvious bias, your credibility when speaking about them is not the best,

          Thanks for proving some Trump supporters are obsessed, too.

          healthguyfsu in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 9:47 pm

          It’s called projection. The Trumpets accuse Dems of it because they can see it in them. Sadly, they cannot see the same projection in themselves.

          thad_the_man in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 9:51 pm

          This is an example of when “republicans” act like Democrats.

          healthguyfsu in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 9:55 pm

          Would that be the GOPe, the RINOs, or anyone else that may be left?

          “Pretty much every Only Trumper has said exactly that and/or some variation on same: Trump is the ONLY ONE.”

          Fuzzy, I think that’s a partial quote. The full quote is:

          Trump is the ONLY ONE … to get two scoops.

          LOL! Thanks for that! 🙂

        healthguyfsu in reply to oldschooltwentysix. | August 16, 2023 at 9:49 pm

        You are beaten.

        Fuzzy 4 receipts

        old 0

        Negative points should be scored for the defiant L that followed that.

        thad_the_man in reply to oldschooltwentysix. | August 17, 2023 at 5:53 am

        To be fair Fuzzy doesn’t worship DeSantis. She as the British would say “fancies him”.

        Shes definitely got something for him. That’s for sure

    Obama dropped the mic, too.

    SaltyDonnie in reply to RNJD. | August 16, 2023 at 5:52 pm

    And I’ll say this slower: No. Republican. Now. Running. Will. Win. Because. The. Elections. Are. “Fortified”. Against. Then. And. No. One. Supports. Auditing. The. Results.

      healthguyfsu in reply to SaltyDonnie. | August 16, 2023 at 9:53 pm

      Wrecklessly. Assuming. Your. Opinion. Is. Fact. Trump’s. Path. To. Victory. Is…?

        SaltyDonnie in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 9:45 am

        Get ready to see for yourself in full color in 2024 when you sit in front of the tv on election “month” and see sufficient magical “D” ballots appear to defeat your candidate of choice in stall Joey B as president with even more votes that last time (or whoever they replace him with beforehand). And again, since you lack ready comprehension, Trump (and DeSantis, et al) DO NOT HAVE A PATH TO VICTORY, because, again, elections are now “fortified.” You’re discussing a winning game plan when the refs are BOUGHT and wearing the other team’s jerseys.

        If the GOP decides to “ballot harvest” as well to “get out the vote”, you’ll get whiplash from how quick the Dems become born again “election deniers” prosecuting any GOP-affiliated group that does such.

“There is no process to decertify an election that took place two and a half years ago. The way you stop this growing totalitarianism is to win the next election… ”

Ha ha! They did the meme – “Vote harder!”

I believe Trump can win the next election as what they are doing to him are waking up the whole populace to him. The trials cannot be finished before the election and even if they are under the Constitution it does not matter as he will be the nominee and appear on all ballots in all states.

It is clear that Trump is hated by the Left, DC, and the Deep State. The conditions of the USA are getting worse and more people realize that things were better under Trump. If there is another stolen election or martial law as things across the country collapse I am afraid we will go into CW2 or dissolve as a country.

retiredcantbefired | August 16, 2023 at 6:08 pm

What’s the endgame for the prosecution?

retiredcantbefired | August 16, 2023 at 6:11 pm

The “rallying around” effect that many fear will be entirely for nought, if Donald Trump is convicted and imprisoned (on any of these charges, or on charges from any of the other indictments).

Should those who do not want Trump to be the nominee therefore be pulling for convictions and prison time?

    Absolutely NOT. I am appalled by what is happening here, and I most decidedly don’t want Trump to be the nominee. What they are doing to our country, driving it into a hyperpartisan banana republic status—show me the man, I’ll show you the crime state, is absolutely unacceptable on every single level. I could care less about Trump in all this, he’s just a man, but our great country is being destroyed by this evil. I think most of us can agree on that point.

    What we do about it, though, is a bone of contention. There is no way to redo 2020, so focusing on it is not just stupid and a waste of valuable time and resources, but factually counter-productive. Pushing to return Trump to the WH and essentially wipe out Biden’s presidency (residency?) is unrealistic and damaging. It’s simply not going to happen. And all the while, the exact same things that were in place in 2020 in these shady districts are STILL in place. As they were during the 2022 midterms and are to this day. We ignore that while trying to undo an election that literally cannot be undone? That makes zero sense to me.

    healthguyfsu in reply to retiredcantbefired. | August 16, 2023 at 9:56 pm

    Another false dichotomy (assuming this was meant as a rhetorical question)

This is all a smokescreen.

The real question the country has is, “how are the democrats going to be punished for their sins”.

Maybe it’s through lawfare. Maybe Elon Musk releases every deleted tweet and private DM from every democrat on the platform to the public. Maybe it’s driving woke companies bankrupt. Maybe it’s actually prosecuting and jailing the arsonists, looters, murderers, and groomers. Maybe it’s giving pardons to every J6 accidental tourist.

When someone can think of a bigger punishment for the Dems than Trump 2024, I’m all ears.

    How about someone who can actually affect change? Someone with a proven record of not only understanding how government and the law work but how to use it to his best advantage? Trump is not that guy, and you have to know it on some level. DeSantis can fix this, and given the current field, he’s probably the only one who not only can but will work his butt off to make it happen.

    Trump’s a sucker, and he was played hard by the media, the deep state, and his own hires (most of whom were dead awful). DeSantis is smart, savvy, and he has an iron will and cannot be flattered into stupid decisions (as Trump was over and over), nor can he be swayed by media blowback or potential donor upset. As the Only Trumpers keep posting here, DeSantis rejected one of his biggest donor’s request that he NOT sign the Florida six-week abortion ban and signed it anyway. He is his own man, and he’s not a weather vane who blows with the media wind.

    Trump wanted to open by Easter, but the media hit him hard, and he caved like a cheap suit. So freaking disgusting. In the meantime, DeSantis stood firm and protected Floridians from the worst of the WuFlu crap. When needed, he even issued Executive Orders to ensure Free Floridians stayed free and were not fined, arrested, or jailed for defying local blue city and county policy.

    DeSantis did this because it was right. He had no idea it would be popular or that it would make him a rock star on the right or make our state a magnet for freedom seekers the country over. He just knew what was right and followed through. Trump, by contrast, knew what was right (opening by Easter), and he caved to Fauci fascism and the media. Trump craves approval. DeSantis works for the people. It’s that simple.

      henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 8:50 pm

      Now get him elected, when the system is rigged to deny exactly that, and nobody will do anything about it because “investigating the past is pointless.”

        Investigating the past at this moment in time is pointless, and the 2024 election is likely already lost. The time to finish investigating and take action was prior to the 2022 midterms. “We” couldn’t even get a decent percentage of people to come out and help save the country. Once the left managed to retain power, 2024 was/is a fait accompli.

      healthguyfsu in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 16, 2023 at 10:00 pm

      When Trump was in power, he did nothing to quell the nationwide riots from George Floyd. The most he did was pull back a mob for a photo op. This is the “fight” you get from a fraud that says he will fight for you but lets the little people rot in jail.

      How do people worship this washed up salesman.

        Vancomycin in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 9:39 am

        You sure about that? You SURE he didn’t try to order federal agencies to do something about them only to be told “no”. I’d wager that’s what happened

          CommoChief in reply to Vancomycin. | August 17, 2023 at 10:02 am

          Is that supposed to be an argument for selecting Trump as the nominee? If so, it doesn’t make sense to put an ineffective leader (as you argued here) back into a position he couldn’t utilize effectively (also as you argued here) to implement his policies.

          henrybowman in reply to Vancomycin. | August 17, 2023 at 8:32 pm

          Well we know he OFFERED federal assistance to the administrators of the war zones, only to be reviled and rebuffed. And that this was the PROPER limits to his police authority under federalism and out constitution, something the vast majority of Americans (present company excepted) cannot even comprehend.

        SaltyDonnie in reply to healthguyfsu. | August 17, 2023 at 10:15 am

        A President can’t send in the National Guard to a state unless the Governor requests it. So, did the Governors request it, and Agent Orange refused? Or did so, but insufficiently? Last time I saw the guard, they were spooning for warmth on cold parking garage concrete swapping COVID and protecting DC from Jan 6ers that long since left.

          Milhouse in reply to SaltyDonnie. | August 17, 2023 at 1:02 pm

          A President can’t send in the National Guard to a state unless the Governor requests it.

          I don’t think that’s correct.

          He should have followed Tom Cotton’s advice and sent in forces to end those riots that were clearly insurrectionist, such as in Portland.

          CommoChief in reply to SaltyDonnie. | August 18, 2023 at 9:42 am

          Do what?

          The National Guard can absolutely be used by the President at his direction. He is the unity executive and exercising his prerogative as the Commander in Chief. See Kennedy ordering the Alabama NG to Federal Service when George Wallace stood in the ‘schoolhouse door’ at the Univ of Alabama.

          Would it be a political issue? Yep. The public wouldn’t have been 100% begins it nor would the d/prog office holders. Lots of controversy would have ensued.

          Which is, IMO, why Trump didn’t choose to ‘fight’ on this point. Just as he didn’t fire Fauci and didn’t VETO the budget McConnell and Ryan sent without border wall funding. Trump talks a lot of trash but in these examples he chose to back down and let the establishment have their way.

          henrybowman in reply to SaltyDonnie. | August 19, 2023 at 2:57 pm

          “See Kennedy ordering the Alabama NG to Federal Service”
          Never understood how he got away with that. While the Pres can “federalize” any NG he wishes, he still can’t use them to enforce domestic law. Posse Comitatus prevents that. The only constitutional exception is true insurrection. Was George Wallace declared an insurrectionist? I don’t remember that.

      “DeSantis is smart, savvy, and he has an iron will….”

      freespeechfanatic in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 17, 2023 at 8:14 am

      “Trump craves approval. DeSantis works for the people. It’s that simple.”

      It’s that simple, is it? So nice of you to reduce it down for us. We can just dismiss Trump’s four years of phenomenal accomplishment against forces and odds DeSantis hasn’t come close to experiencing. In any case, thanks for disqualifying yourself from any serious analysis, and likewise for revealing (nay, further confirming) the contempt for Trump among the alleged intelligentsia of the Right..

      ” Trump craves approval. DeSantis works for the people. It’s that simple.”

      Trump craves approval? Then why didn’t he collapse when the entirety of the media, all the Dems half the GOP and everyone who could crapped on him from 2015 till they cheated him out of office? And them ramped up after they stole the presidency?

      The man has been getting shit on since he announced.

      If he craves approval, as you say, he’s picked a damned weird way to get it.

      And DeSantis got where he is by being MAGA. By trumpizing his own style. He’s a great governor, and will be a great president AFTER Trump.

      Because Trump and DeSantis together are unstoppable.

      Trump and DeSantis divided are ripe to be conquered.

      #1. I do not want the evil in the democrats to pollute the decency of Jill Casey DeSantis.

I think there’s a lot of ideas mixed together here. This is what I’m solid on.

1. There is a point to “relitigating” the 2020 election in terms of Mr. Trump’s Trial. He’s being accused of lying about the election, and one of the ways to resolve that is to prove he’s telling the truth in the first place. How hard a row that is to hoe is going to be up for a lot of debate.

1a. I observe that a lot of his supporters believe that it wasn’t actually litigated in the first place, as the courts mostly threw out the lawsuits based on standing.

2. Mr. Trump is still the person to beat – by far, in the primary.

2a. There’s simply just too many other candidates. I mean, really, what’s Tim Scott doing there? He’s pulling 3% *at best*, and those 3% aren’t coming from Mr. Trump’s supporters. Mr. Christie as well. Especially Mr. Pence – the Democrats are never going to vote for someone with his beliefs, and Mr. Trump’s crowd sees him as a traitor. The party needs to coalesce before the primary season.

2b. Nobody is willing to simply declare themselves as running with Mr. Trump’s ideas, but being less of a jerk. Mr. DeSantis and Ms. Haley comes closest, but they haven’t done it yet. If Mr. Trump does fall out of primary for other reasons – his voters will flock to the person who they consider most willing to fight for them. He *still* has a 66% favorability rating among Republicans.

3. Why does conspiracy theories have such staying power around Mr. Trump? Because they’ve been right far too often. I remember how sites like National Review called him nuts for saying Mr. Obama had monitored the calls around Trump Tower – except that happened. How a lot of the sites (not this one) hung on to every ‘drip’ of Russian Collusion that was not and never was true. Why shouldn’t Mr. Trump’s calls of fraud be believed when he has the better track record than the media? (See also Fuzzy Slipper’s excellent post from a few days back.)

In conclusion, and here’s the save our republic question:

Will the half of the Republican voters who did not get their way be able to hold their noses and vote *for their interests*, whether the surviving candidate is Mr. Trump, Mr. DeSantis, Ms. Haley, or someone else?

-John “Treguard” Burkhart

As interested as some may be in the political analyses of Fuzzy and the Professor, I would be more interested in his opinion on what we can do NOW to push back against these political indictments.

Lawfare can work both ways. Perhaps it is time for Red States to file charges federal prosecutors or special counsels for abuse of p opp

    SaltyDonnie in reply to kelly_3406. | August 17, 2023 at 10:16 am

    BINGO. Now, do the DAs/AGs have the sack, or not?

    henrybowman in reply to kelly_3406. | August 17, 2023 at 8:42 pm

    See, there is a dichotomy of goal here, and we have all been talking around it.

    Goal one is to succor Trump — either get him re-elected, reduce his legal burden, get him heard in court on the subject of the Big Cheat, or (mirabile dictu) have it proven that he really won 2020 (not that that “makes him president,” mind you, but it corrects the record books).

    Goal two is to put the previous (two) elections under a microscope, expose the instances of cheating, identify the cheaters by name, and punish them all, severely.

    Both fall under the loose rubric of “relitigating the last election,” but for two different reasons.

    My full support is for goal two. Fail to do this, and we will never again have a fair election in the USA, and we can all go Carl Drega or get into the boxcars right now.

    Goal one is nice, and should happen, but I realize that there is no hope of achieving this by “relitigating” that aspect of the election.

    Hope I’ve clarified what I suspect is a major part of the opinion divide here.

      Yes, I think this makes sense and gets to the differences of opinion here. I don’t think anyone (well, maybe that one guy) is arguing that the 2020 was perfect or even that Trump didn’t win it (I know I am not arguing that).

      I’m not sure how goal two is accomplished, though. That’s something the suspect states and districts have to do, and I don’t see anyone doing it at that level (the only level that actually matters). I’m also not sure about the various statutes of limitations on whatever crimes these people committed or what is a federal and what a state or local crime. These are complex issues that vary by state and district and go far beyond, hunt them down, arrest them, punish them, and voila! Issues solved.

      The injustice is outrageous, and we all agree on that, but flailing around in outraged outrage isn’t going to solve anything. We know this because nothing has been done (except in Florida and other states that have taken steps to clean up their voter rolls and processes, i.e. states that were and are not ground zero for election shenanigans), and there is no shortage of outrage.

      So how do you see goal two achieved? Keeping in mind all the many and various problems with even knowing which voters submitted which ballot once they are all mucked up together?

        henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 19, 2023 at 2:49 pm

        There is a plethora of events that have been cited as evidence of election theft, but no court has even allowed them to be entered into formal evidence, due to “standing” or “laches” or “ripeness” or any number of other weasel excuses. So we need to get them entered in some other fashion so that they can be examined. A congressional committee would be best. Hell, a serial Netflix documentary, if nothing else. These claims have to get out there and get examined, not swept under a rug.

        henrybowman in reply to Fuzzy Slippers. | August 19, 2023 at 2:53 pm

        Also, I don’t agree that this investigation is “something the suspect states and districts have to do.” The constitution burdens the federal government with ensuring that every state has a republican form of government. That makes election cheating a federal matter. Hell, they made racially-biased redistricting a federal matter under this clause, outright ballot cheating qualifies for damn sure.

          Ah. Well, we won’t ever agree on a solution, then, because I am adamantly opposed to embiggening the federal government. I want it shrunk, its powers sharply reduced (hacked to the raw), and it to stay the heck out of states’ rights.

          Redistricting should not, actually, be a federal matter.

          That said, there WERE things Trump and his DOJ could have done to 1.) NOT shut down the freaking country, push lockdown, lash out at governors who defied him, etc. 2.) when it became clear that Democrats were organizing to take advantage of the plandemic, they could have stopped the shutdowns by firing Fauci and putting in place a more rational person (as DeSantis did in Florida) who had the people at the forefront, not politics and elections and the great reset. 3.) the federal government could have challenged states for violating their own state constitutions, that is well within the right of the DOJ.

          But they did nothing. Literally, they doubled down on stupid. Over and over. Yes, Democrats cheated, but Trump laid out a whole row of cookie jars full of delicious treats and then walked out of the kitchen. Some of that blame (a good chunk of it) belongs on Trump.

          The federal government coming in AFTER the fact and dictating to states . . . not good. Not good at all.

All these people being indicted…..conspicuous by his absence, Pence. Why not him?

Steven Brizel | August 17, 2023 at 8:43 am

Trump delegated all Covid policies to the so called experts who shut down schools and the economy and did nothing to stop the riots in 2020-relitigationg 2020 which was clearly very problematic and which does raise significant First Amendment issues will not attract independent voters who are concerned about the spread of American Marxism vis CRT, gender issues and climate change

    SaltyDonnie in reply to Steven Brizel. | August 17, 2023 at 10:19 am

    And the governors (Hi DeSantis!), mayors, etc. all deferred to the same “experts” “recommendations.” Had they, and Trump, told Fauci to pound sand fleas, this would have stopped in a week, but the media assaulted anyone that challenged Pope Tony as a granny slayer, and the bed wetter hypochondriacs Branch Covidians, fearful of the Boomer-Remover, supported it. Trump and the governors have a lot of blame to go around, and the lesson learned is, “ignore the ‘experts'”.

      “And the governors (Hi DeSantis!), mayors, etc. all deferred to the same “experts” “recommendations.” ”

      Yeah, we were really pissed here in Florida when Gov. DeSantis locked us in our homes until Christmas, shipped WuFlu patients to our nursing homes, made it illegal to access ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine …

      oh, wait …

        Azathoth in reply to alien. | August 17, 2023 at 12:15 pm

        Oh wait what?

        Do I have to post pictures of empty beaches? Florida DID lock down.

        They reopened faster. Along the saner timeline that Trump was advocating –but not imposing.

        SaltyDonnie in reply to alien. | August 17, 2023 at 12:50 pm

        The N95s must have cut off some oxygen there – Florida did lock down. To their credit, then opened up quicker and had comparatively more free than the other State Correctional Facilities, er, I mean, States like Pennsylvania did. But Desantis isn’t a lockdown virgin. Which is why he, Trump, etc. all have to have a come to Jesus meeting on that, or else they don’t learn nuffin’.

Trump is now an historical figure that will forever be remembered as the one great leader that stood against the tyranny of the Left. Trump is our Cincinnatus. He risked all to defend us, our families, our liberties, our nation, and our civilization. We owe him our complete and total support which includes annihilating his enemies who are all demons who have sold their souls to Satan in return for unprecedented power and wealth. . Today, let’s agree to start a campaign demanding that all other contenders for the Republican nomination stand down and endorse Trump. There can be no other choice. Trump may not be perfect, but he is perfect to carry the standard of Liberty and the Republic forward. MAGA Advance! No quarter to our enemies!

There is no endgame to pretending voting does anything other than give legitimacy to a corrupt system.

The “legitimate avenues of consequence” are being closed off to the right-affiliated (and to everyone, really, they just haven’t had it proven to them yet). They have been for quite a while, and some people simply can’t accept it, as it’s too horrifying. So they persist in assuming normality. This appeal to procedure is like a NFL referee running out onto a football field waving the rule book and throwing a penalty flag yelling, “PENALTY, Unnecessary Roughness!”, when the football game long ago devolved in a bloodletting gladiatorial death orgy complete with hatchets, severed limbs and lions eating the punter. It’s laughable to think that will turn this around, let alone think anyone listens or cares.

Jesse Kelly is another website warrior black-piller, also quick with a tweet (X?) criticizing but never offering a plan other than submission. He’s pointing out the flood, but not lifting any sandbags to stem it, at least until it hits his property anyway.

Here is a half-serious thought for Trump: fly to a country without an extradition treaty with the U.S. where he could retire and declare himself President in Exile. He stays out of jail, maintains his innocence, and can claim he won the election.

With due respect Mr. Jacobson, you think like a lawyer, which is expected. But it is limited. Educationally, I was trained to think like a historian. From that perspective, we’re rapidly moving to a “post law” society. Not unexpected and this has happened plenty of times before. But it moves outside the bounds of tit-for-tat or addressing a corrupted legal system on the same grounds. Or believing “we can vote our way out of this”. Likely at or already past that event horizon. Don’t think this means I somehow wish for a conflict—studied way too many over the years. No one can underestimate the brutality and I have too many kids to wish that they spend their young adulthood in such circumstances. But a wise man puts thought and preparation into that scenario. These conflicts develop linearly until linear becomes “sudden”. And no one can predict it. Czar Nicholas was likely told in 1917 “the workers are restive” and his reply was probably “the workers are always restive”. And we know how that ended. The Balkans are a more recent example. Or Republican Spain.

    SaltyDonnie in reply to SamlAdams. | August 17, 2023 at 12:53 pm

    Agreed, the lawyerly training focuses your mind on certain approach, like looking through a paper towel tube. Other disciplines can provide better reads, i.e. historians.

facebookisfacist | August 17, 2023 at 11:58 am

Who bought this blog off? Must have paid big or more likely small. RINOs sell out honest for cheap.

If the same mechanisms are in place in 2024 (mail-in ballots sent to inactive voters at non-residential street addresses or PO boxes and collected by the Post Office because they’re undeliverable to the addressee who then hand them off to Mules to stuff the collection boxes), then how is the election of 2024 going to be legit?.

How can the U.S. citizen’s vote compete with manufactured ballots?

Politics is defined how the People interact with their government.

Fraudulent ballots remove that means of interaction.

Now that’s what I call an “Endgame”. How say you?

To me, the ‘end game’ is finally determining how much the democrat party cheated and lied in 2020 so that it will be near impossible for them to do it in the future. We already know the lies and ommisions that they are guilty of in 2016.
Besides that, Donald Trump is being accused of things that have been done by a lot of politicians in the past two centuries, and only now is someone being procecuted for it.
George S summarized the situation really well.

Allow me to try that again…
To me, the ‘end game’ is finally determining how much the democrat party cheated and lied in 2020 so that it will be near impossible for them to do it in the future. We already know the lies and omissions that they are guilty of in 2016.
Besides that, Donald Trump is being accused of things that have been done by a lot of politicians in the past two centuries, and only now is someone being prosecuted for it.
George S summarized the situation really well.

In the “politics as usual” world that Professor Jacobson wants to pretend we still live in, this country is divided straight down the middle, meaning there will be no way to overcome the very large margin of cheating (election stealing) that our now fully totalitarian Communist Democratic Party currently enjoys.

The only way to overcome the margin of cheating is to get the entire country to understand that the 2020 elections were in fact stolen, and we do that by showing them the proof.

True the vote already did that, using cell phone geo-location data together with video monitoring of ballot drop-boxes to prove that 2000 mules in five key counties stuffed far more than enough fraudulent ballots into those drop-boxes to steal five key states, turning an electoral college a landslide for Trump into a stolen “election victory” for Biden.

That was just one small slice of Democrat election fraud, one particular scheme documented and only five counties. There is evidence of much much more, and Trump is promising to lay out yet more proof. And Professor Jacobson thinks this is a mistake? Holy cow.

Our republican democracy has been usurped! That is a FACT, and no other issue in the upcoming election matters one 100 as much.

If we have real elections we can recover ourselves from any level of bad government just by surviving until the next election cycle. But if we don’t have honest elections (our current situation), then tyrannical government becomes permanent, and we maybe (maybe) have one last chance to prevent that, if we can get everyone to recognize that it is democracy itself that’s on the ballot.

Course of left inverts that, pretending that Trump is the threat to democracy. Projection is their constant strategy. But on every such “he said, she said,” issue, it is only necessary to look at the facts.

We have the proof, and the one thing most important is that we put it out, where everyone can see it.

Hard-core communist Democrats, the activist base of the party, are A-OK with stealing elections. They are the ones who are participating in it, whenever they get the chance.

But for the other half the Democratic party, and I know a lot of these people, the cementing in place of a fraudulent election system might be where they were draw the line.

If the election stealers succeed in stealing this next election they will get control the courts and they will have every arm of government. America will NEVER have another real election. Nobody’s children will ever have the power to throw off tyrannical government by the peaceful means of voting them out, the great legacy that was passed on to all of us by the founders of this country, standing on the hundreds of years of English and enlightenment history that brought us to the point where this was possible.

Everyone needs to understand the situation: that if the Republicans don’t sweep to power in this next election, America is done. Does professor Jacobson himself understand that we have been usurped? It doesn’t seem like it.

Also understand that the proofs we have that the last election was stolen will never be found again for any future stolen election. It was genius how True the Vote was able use phone geo-location data to prove that one small slice of Democrat election fraud was far more than sufficient to steal the 2020 election, but Democrats will be able to block that detection next time by the simple device of having the mules not carry their cell phones with them. They’ll have to document their ballot drops (for purposes of getting paid) using cameras that are not geo- locatable, then presto, they can go undetected again.

Similarly for the much more massive systems of elections stealing that are in evidence, like the statistically impossible late ballot drops. In state after state there was a mass drop of votes for Biden that gave him the lead and then subsequent vote drops would be in increments that showed the exact same division of votes between Biden and Trump, with Biden getting slightly more, so that his lead continued to inch up.

That statistical pattern is absolutely impossible in an honest election, proving that Democrats had some central scheme in place on the counting side to rig the count, but they didn’t need to use such an easily detectable vote drop pattern to implement it, and they won’t next time. They’ll just add a randomization element to the fraud so that there’s nothing that can be seen on its face to be statistically impossible.

This is our last chance to prove that we’ve been usurped, before we’ve been so thoroughly usurped that it doesn’t matter whether we can prove it or not. That is the cusp that we are on, and the one most important thing for the next election is that everybody understand where we are: that we HAVE been usurped, that the last election WAS stolen.

And here we have Professor Jacobson actually saying: Nah, don’t look at that.

All that the 53% hard negative against Trump means is that 53% get their information from our Democrat controlled media. They believe the official democratic party lie that the election was not stolen, and that in claiming it was, Trump is guilty of insurrection.

What better answer to those lies then to prove that the election actually was stolen. Talk about killing many birds with one stone. If he’s actually got more proof (True the Vote’s proof should have been enough), then he clears himself, exposes the usurpers, and wins the election.

It’s not a dead end. It’s the only way forward to save our republic.

Even if Dems turn 50% against Biden (actually Obama and his Lavrentiy Beria Merrick Garland), it is very likely that the Democrat’s systematic election fraud will still proclaim JoeBama the victor. In that likely scenario the only chance the honest election side has to prevail is if the leading issue of the election has been election integrity.

Making the actual main issue — election integrity — the highest profile issue, is the only way to even have a chance of winning.

It also helps with every other issue. The war on our existing energy industries that is crushing everyone? If Trump actually won in 2020 (as he did), then the country did not vote for this self-destruction, or for mass illegal immigration, or for war with Russia, or for mandatory vaccination with the radically experimental mRNA vaccines, or for the transing and queering of everyone’s children in the public schools, or for systematic government-directed censorship of all opposing views, etcetera ad nauseum.

The country actually voted against all of that, and it would help a lot if everyone knew it.

2smartforlibs | August 18, 2023 at 12:33 pm

The end game is getting the left to admit they rigged it and make people wake up to the fact it can and will happen again.

Trump shifted the GOP electorate away from the upper and upper-middle classes toward the middle and lower-middle classes–and it produced a net gain in voters .

Running someone other than Trump–with other than Trump’s policies and policy emphasis–will produce a net loss in voters.

Johnathan Galt | August 18, 2023 at 1:40 pm

There absolutely IS an “end game.” It is to restore our Constitution.

Article IV Section 4 of our Constitution contains that document’s one and only use of the word “guarantee.” It logically applies to our elections – which are the sole source of our government’s legitimacy.

It guarantees us a right to “a Republican form of government.” A stolen election cannot be a Republican form of government. A guarantee cannot be said to have been met without proof (and, for the hard-of-learning, bureaucrats making pronouncements of “certification” without supporting ironclad proof is not proof of anything other than complicity in the theft).

The end game, then, is to compel government to both acknowledge and enforce the fact that the burden of proof lies on the States, not on We the People to catch them cheating and successfully prove it in court. And, the Federal government MUST reject any election result for which the evidence is inconclusive. Or, to put it more simply, any election where the outcome is even potentially in doubt for lack of proof should automatically be discarded. We successfully conducted secure elections for over a century; third world countries do it every year with ironclad proof. We cannot settle for anything less.

As in so many things, the solution to our modern political issues dwells within our Constitution – if only we have the courage to demand it is upheld.

    Mt. Fuji in reply to Johnathan Galt. | August 18, 2023 at 3:20 pm

    There is more than one “end game”, and it depends on what side you look at. For the black hats it’s the complete undermining of the foundational tenants of this nation, and those have been under attack before 1789. It’s the complete and utter destruction of the USA, what it stands for and what it means for the rest of the world. The white hat’s end game is to legally inject election interference evidence with Trump’s “trial” to protect the election system in this country, to educate or “wake up” the populace and turn the downward spiral of the USA around, but at what cost? I have a gut feeling that we are being set up for something much more dire, because when you claim you are in control but allow everything around us to crumble, is that any better than what the black hats are doing? Let things get so bad that any solution offered that is better than what was allowed to happen will be soaked up by the majority just to regain “normalcy”? The only end game I can see with all that has happened over the last 6 or so years is a total setup for a totalitarian government that completely controls everything in the world destroying freedom and choice. I believe that before November 2024 we will be in a hot WWIII, the stock market will crash, we will be in a great depression/deflation, another pandemic will pop up just because the people who pull the levers of power want to destroy EVERYTHING because they worship a false god that was a murderer and destroyer from the beginning.

We will never have honest elections again if we don’t get to the bottom of this. Throwing Trump to the wolves and “getting back to normal” is not going to happen. Things have changed, and they are not going back to what they were. If you are giving up, then get gone already.

“There is no process to decertify an election that took place two and a half years ago.”

This is turning the law on its head. Specifically the Constitution article 2, section 1. Which reads “Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct,…”

Many states unlawfully changed their election laws. This undoubtedly affected the appointment of electors. Meaning the Constitutional process never occurred, all that is necessary to correct this is to recognize it and then correct it however you can.

There is no need to “decertify” when the electors where never certified according to the Constitutional process in the first place.

Quartermaster | August 28, 2023 at 5:15 pm

It’s a dead end only because the courts have shown they are deeply corrupt and cowardly. There is a mountain of evidence that the election was stolen and it is unconscionable they would not take the cases.