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Mar-a-Lago Special Master Hearing: Trump lawyers compare situation to “overdue library book,” Judge Will Rule Later

Mar-a-Lago Special Master Hearing: Trump lawyers compare situation to “overdue library book,” Judge Will Rule Later

“DOJ argued there is no need for a special master and that it will only delay the criminal investigation. Trump lawyers say special master will give the American people more confidence in the process and allow an outside person to review seized documents.”

Federal District Court Judge Aileen M. Cannon held a hearing today on Donald Trump’s request for judicial supervision of the records and other things seized by the feds in the Mar-a-Lago raid. Here are the parties’ submissions:

Trump v. USA (Mar-a-Lago Search) – Motion for Judicial Oversight and Proposed Order

Trump v. USA – Supplemental Filing In Support Of Motion For Special Master – 8-26-2022

Trump v. USA – Preliminary Order On Motion For Judicial Oversight- 8-27-2022

Trump v. USA – Notice of Receipt of Preliminary Order – 8-29-2022

Trump v. USA – Govt Response To Motion For Judicial Oversight – 8-30-2022

Trump v. USA – Reply In Support of Motion For Judicial Oversight – 8-31-2022

The hearing started today at 1 p.m. under electronic lockdown, with courthouse wifi cut off and texting forbidden. So we are completely dependent for now on what reporters who were in the courtroom report after the hearing, plus whatever entries are made on the court docket.

CNN just reported:

The hearing on former President Donald Trump’s bid for a special master to review documents seized from Mar-a-Lago has concluded.

US District Judge Aileen Cannon did not make a ruling from the bench.

MORE from people in the courtroom:

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Comments

We are talking about a criminal statute that has no penalties listed either criminal or civil. There’s literally nothing that prescribes any punishment whatsoever. In addition, according to Judicial Watch v. NARA (D.D.C. 2012), the president has sole authority on what is a personal record and what is not.

That shouldn’t read “criminal statue”, it should simply read “statute” as there are no remedies of any sort.

Does the government have standing to invade a private residence, let alone to file suit, without presenting evidence of harm or even subterfuge?

    taurus the judge in reply to n.n. | September 1, 2022 at 3:34 pm

    Not sure exactly what you mean by that

    If you mean obtain a SW, yes the USG has standing provided the process is followed.

    Maybe rephrase

      Allow me to rephrase the question: Does the DOJ have the right to obtain a search warrant in non-criminal cases? My understanding is that they need to show probable cause for believing that the search will yield evidence of a specific crime (identified in advance of the search).

        taurus the judge in reply to DKWalser. | September 2, 2022 at 7:48 am

        Personally, in my former career I have never heard of a Civil equivalent to a criminal search warrant and even now in my civil dealings the most i have ever done is a “civil investigation” for structures “for the public good” and that’s nowhere close to a “search warrant”.

        I would like to hear an attorney expound on such a thing if it exists

    mailman in reply to n.n. | September 2, 2022 at 5:11 am

    Well apparently all they needed was a useful fool magistrate to sign off on a search warrant. So I guess the answer is yes. They can do what the fuck ever they want.

She will wait until after they indict Trump then punt.

“…and that it will only delay the criminal investigation”

Did they make the “moot” argument too, like NY State on their gun case? (“The G-men have already fondled Melania’s G-strings, so restricting access they shouldn’t have had is moot.”)

Overplayed hand has to be coming soon.
Sit tight.

They faked the photo, too?

If the library book was overdue why didn’t Trump return it when he was asked?

There’s a reason for everything and that one I just can’t figure out.

Anyone?

    txvet2 in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 5:58 pm

    IIRC, he did return everything they asked for. The FBI are the ones who told him to keep what was left under better security, which he did.

      jharp in reply to txvet2. | September 1, 2022 at 6:07 pm

      No Trump didn’t.

      The FBI recovered 15 boxes of documents that didn’t belong to Trump in the raid.

      And if nothing else was seized why is Trump asking for a special master to review the documents? The documents you claim don’t exist.

      Like I said. There is a reason Trump kept what didn’t belong to him.

      Quite perplexing to say the least.

        txvet2 in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 6:25 pm

        “”The FBI recovered 15 boxes of documents that didn’t belong to Trump in the raid.””

        That’s not accurate. The timeline and circumstances have been discussed in depth on this website ever since the raid. Plus, of course, I didn’t say the documents “didn’t exist”, I said exactly the opposite.

        irishgladiator63 in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 6:32 pm

        Assuming you’re genuinely asking. Trumonis saying the FBI took documents that they aren’t allowed to have. They aren’t allowed to have them because they are covered by various forms of privilege. The FBI can’t raid your house and take letters between you and your lawyer, for instance. Trump is alleging they violated attorney/client privilege and executive privilege. If true, that means the FBI can’t read them. The special master is supposed to go the documents and decide what is actually covered by privilege.

        The FBI has seized things we know they shouldn’t have, like Trump’s passports. So to say this is Trump admitting to things he shouldn’t have is not correct. Given the generic descriptions in the search warrant returns such as “Box of Documents” who knows what the FBI took.

          henrybowman in reply to irishgladiator63. | September 1, 2022 at 7:37 pm

          Besides, you wouldn’t believe what good care of those documents Trump took on behalf of the archivist.
          He made sure all their covers were wiped weekly.
          With a cloth!

          Until Hillary gets dragged in front of a Republican DOJ to answer for her insecure possession of documents that there was no question she should not have had, anything done to Trump is totalitarian hypocrisy.

          “The FBI has seized things we know they shouldn’t have, like Trump’s passports“

          Is false.

          The other documents included two official passports, one of which was expired, and one personal passport, which was expired,” it said. “The location of the passports is relevant evidence in an investigation of unauthorized retention and mishandling of national defense information.”

          NBC News legal analyst Barbara McQuade, a former U.S. attorney, said the reason the passports are “relevant evidence” is clear — they point directly to Trump.

          “In most searches you look for identity documents to tie a suspect to the evidence you’re looking for — photographs, IDs, utility bills. If you find the contraband in the same room as the identity documents, there’s a fair inference that person had dominion and control over the documents,” said McQuade, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School.

          Are you nuts? You’re just babbling now. Was there ever any question that Trump had “dominion and control” over documents in a storage room at Mar A Lago?! And if there was such a question, how does his passport being there affect that? Whichever mysterious other person who stashed them there without his knowledge could just as easily have stashed his passports there too.

          Expired passports? You’re going with expired passports? What happened to “NEW-CLEE-ER” secrets?

    It does not matter. Has the library raided anyone for overdue books? Or are many libraries eliminating all such penalies?

It’s all moot anyway. They’re never going to indict Trump, they’ve copied everything they wanted and will leak it when they think it will do the most good, and eventually they’ll just give everything back to him or the Archives because there’s no more point in keeping it.

    jharp in reply to txvet2. | September 1, 2022 at 6:12 pm

    I don’t think so.

    In addition to Trump being charged it’s highly likely his lawyer who lied to the FBI that everything had been returned will also be charged.

    Never ever could have imagined. Trumps lawyers are hiring lawyers. And lots of them. Cohen, Rudy, Lin Wood, the Kraken lady, and now his last two hires are in trouble.

    Wow.

    The motive for this raid appears to be that Trump has Crossfire incriminating Hurricane documents. The only reason they would want them back is to make sure Trump never makes them public. I doubt the DOJ, FBI would have listed them in their affidavit because “they don’t exist”. But they “knew” Trump had them and maybe they didn’t find them in their raid. That’s the cat and mouse game I believe is being played here.

      Well, there’s that, and also the Macron angle. It’s true that there may be some documents that just disappear rather than being returned, but I was speaking more generally about the documents we know they took (like the ones in the picture),

    TheOldZombie in reply to txvet2. | September 1, 2022 at 7:48 pm

    Gotta disagree here. They are going to charge Trump. The goal isn’t a conviction though they would love that but to tie him up and try to stop him from running for POTUS in 2024.

    They are going to pull out all the stops to prevent him from running for 2024.

      taurus the judge in reply to TheOldZombie. | September 2, 2022 at 8:11 am

      @OZ

      I doubt they will charge him now ( key word being now)

      Listen to experience. “Bringing” a charge ( especially through a GJ)- is relatively easy- WINNING THE CASE is a different matter. Many charges are “brought” only to be dismissed, pled down and many defeated.

      First, a “charge” wouldn’t prevent Trump from running and would in all likelihood make him a martyr and possibly the sympathy vote also. (last thing the left wants)

      Second, ( remember the warning about taking a shot at the king- you damn well better not miss)

      If they bring a charge to trial and Trump beats it- oh boy, that will almost certainly bring the left down. Trump was “right”!! ( they would never live it down)

      The other side is that right now the left is wounded and reeling so they ar acting out of fear so they may really do something stupid.

      Very dangerous and unpredictable right now

        This raid may have backfired on the Biden adm so bad that they had to move on to the next stage, which was Biden’s last night speech. Last night’s speech is already backfiring on the Biden administration.

        After all, Biden moved from one thing or group to the next and no telling who will be next after the Trump supporters. The Jews?

          taurus the judge in reply to lurker9876. | September 2, 2022 at 10:29 am

          That thought has crossed my mind also- I’m still letting it marinate and observe the fallout from that “thing” last night before I assess the thought further.

I noticed that the judge told the DOJ not to call the documents classified but instead “marked as classified.” That could be very telling since it suggests that the documents may indeed be declassified.

    It doesn’t matter if the documents were classified or not.

      CountMontyC in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 6:55 pm

      I would say that whether or not they are classified is vital to any criminal prosecution. After all the claims have all along been that these documents were so sensitive to national security that the residence of a former ( and still viable future candidate)) needed to be raided. Now if the documents turn out to be declassified and not of national security importance why did the DOJ which is under the political control of a rival need to conduct such a raid?

        “I would say that whether or not they are classified is vital to any criminal prosecution.“

        You are wrong.

        The 3 crimes listed on the warrant do not require the documents to be classified.

        And I think the chances of the DOJ and FBI not dotting all of the i’s and crossing the t’s are poor.

        I guess we all better learn to be patient. This is gonna take awhile.

        Sanddog in reply to CountMontyC. | September 1, 2022 at 9:26 pm

        They may have previously been declassified by Trump when he was still President. The DOJ can’t prove that’s not the case and they have absolutely no say on whether or not a president can declassify material. They can offer suggestions but the final say belongs to the president.

        lurker9876 in reply to CountMontyC. | September 2, 2022 at 8:55 am

        Remember “Appendix F” photo? All those cover sheets marked, “Top Secret”?

      BobM in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 6:59 pm

      Are you serious, or just trolling?
      Of course it matters.
      The search warrant depended on there being classified docs.
      CURRENTLY classified docs.
      That Trump (supposedly) didn’t have any right to retain
      The fact that the staged trophy FBI photo shows classified cover sheets is not proof of that, btw.
      Declassification is not a high-level D&D spell or magic word processing spell that causes all existing paper copies to change text.

      No one disputes that FORMALLY classified docs were retained.
      Or that, while still in office, Trump ordered ones he thought documented illegal actions unclassified,
      Or that, docs in excess of what they claimed interest in we’re seized.

        alien in reply to BobM. | September 1, 2022 at 7:49 pm

        He’s trolling. jharp used to be a regular, a resident troll at PJ Media until they started charging for the privilege of commenting. Apparently he’s migrated here.

        You don’t need to answer his inquiries; as has been demonstrated, he’s insincere and is not open to reasonable discussion or debate.

        jharp in reply to BobM. | September 1, 2022 at 7:53 pm

        “Are you serious, or just trolling?

        I am 100% serious.

        “Of course it matters.
        The search warrant depended on there being classified docs.”

        You are wrong.

        The documents do not need to be classified.

          txvet2 in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 9:52 pm

          Let me be serious too. I strongly suggest you read the previous articles on this website on this subject throughly. Some of them will contain further links in a chain extending all the way back to the actual raid. You’ll end up a lot better informed. Getting your information from HuffPo and/or Koz is just making you look like an ignorant fool.

      Ironclaw in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 7:19 pm

      Are you really that dumb?

      Milhouse in reply to jharp. | September 1, 2022 at 8:34 pm

      If it doesn’t matter then why go to the trouble of claiming so widely and loudly that they were? Why emphasize it in court and even more in the press releases and the leaks? It’s because it very much does matter.

        I’m thinking he thinks “it doesn’t matter” the same way Hillary figured “it doesn’t matter”. That as long as you can get away with it illegality can be ignored and truth doesn’t matter when you control the means of info dissemination.

        In a perfect world Hillary’s actual mishandling of actual top secret files and electronic docs – that actually made it into hostile foreign hands – would at the least should have resulted in her losing any security clearance access – and disqualify her for any job requiring the same.

        In this world Trump’s likely correct handling of formerly classified docs that never left his possession is apparently grounds for execution.

          mailman in reply to BobM. | September 2, 2022 at 5:18 am

          for fucks sakes Bob! Dont go giving Democrats ideas about execution!! This is all on you pal!!!! 😉

          lurker9876 in reply to BobM. | September 2, 2022 at 8:53 am

          “At this point, what difference does it make?”

          Milhouse in reply to BobM. | September 4, 2022 at 10:49 am

          We don’t know that Mrs Clinton’s mishandling of actual top secret files and electronic docs actually made it into hostile foreign hands. It’s just a reasonable assumption.

        Remember, this audience is mostly lawyers. It doesn’t matter in *court* but we’re not headed to court here. This is politics for the media, pure and simple like sewer water, and making unfounded accusations about ‘thousands of classified documents stolen from the White House and handed out like candy to foreign nationals’ is eaten up by the anti-Trumpers and heralded like pure sugar.

        Nobody with a speck of common sense could believe that, of course, but that’s the exact drum the DNC and media are beating now and the common-senseless are happily parroting the line on every social media outlet they can.

      lurker9876 in reply to jharp. | September 2, 2022 at 8:52 am

      Correct. But the DOJ tried to convince Judge Cannon and Cannon saw through Jay Bratt. It appears that plenty of amici briefs have been submitted. Some GOPe defending the opposition to a special master.

      Paddy M in reply to jharp. | September 2, 2022 at 9:02 am

      This is your dumbest post yet. I’m sure you’ll outdo is soon though.

I see some Democrat media propaganda outlet with lots of pretty letters in its name has already been out setting expectations not to expect charges being made before the mid term elections…much to the consternation of democrats! ahahahhahahahaa

    lurker9876 in reply to mailman. | September 2, 2022 at 8:53 am

    And I doubt that DOJ will issue charges against Trump AFTER the midterms.

    I’m fairly sure the midterms will consist of the Dems hyperventilating on every channel and web link about the certain inevitable felony arrests and convictions of everybody in the whole Trump team and anybody who offers even the slightest interest in defending them or utters the horrid phrase ‘due process’ will be relentlessly hounded off any social media and smeared as (fill in hate-word of the day).

    They’re whipping up their base, and whipping so hard they’re drawing blood.