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Will giving ex-con felons the vote turn Florida blue?

Will giving ex-con felons the vote turn Florida blue?

Democrats assume they will vote Democrat

Florida is one of three states who require convicted felons to obtain clemency before their voting rights are restored. Now, voters will decide if a change to the more than hundred-year-old law ought to be made.

Thanks to the legwork of advocacy group, Floridians for Fair Democracy, surpassed the 766,000 signatures needed to put the put the measure on the November ballot.

“It would automatically restore the right to vote to ex-felons who have completed their sentences, except those convicted of murder or sexual assault. Sixty percent of voters will have to approve the amendment for it to pass,” reports Mother Jones.

After a rough 2016, Democrats are hopeful that restoring voting rights to some 1.5 million Floridians will tip the scale in their favor. Mother Jones is especially excited about the potential shift in voting demographics.

Felon disenfranchisement was part of the Florida constitution adopted in 1868 that aimed to limit black voting rights. One Republican leader said the provision would prevent the state from becoming “niggerized.” It has long had a discriminatory effect on minority citizens, who are more likely to be jailed in Florida—and nationwide—because of disparate treatment in the criminal justice system. It has also been used to preserve Republican majorities in the state, since minorities (and by extension ex-felons) are more likely to vote for Democrats. In 2000, the state of Florida wrongly labeled 12,000 eligible voters as ex-felons and purged them from the voter rolls. That was twenty-two times George W. Bush’s 537-vote margin of victory over Al Gore. The purge likely cost Gore the election…

If the amendment passes, it has the potential to change the political makeup of the state. Donald Trump defeated Hillary Clinton in Florida by 112,000 votes. African American voters favored Clinton over Trump by a 84-8 margin. Currently, there are 500,000 African Americans disenfranchised in the state.

Florida’s electoral margins are incredibly tight, as MJ points out. Any bump in policy that widens the voting block for either party has the potential to be a game changer. But would the restoration of voting rights to some 1.5 million Floridians really have a noticeable impact on future elections? Opinions here are split.

From the Orlando Sentinel:

Darryl Paulson, a conservative Heritage Foundation member and an amendment supporter, said while most former felons tend to support Democrats, studies have shown only a third of former felons would register if allowed. Only about a fifth would actually ever vote, he said.

“It runs both ways,” said Paulson, emeritus professor of government at University of South Florida-St. Petersburg. “Democrats clearly support the issue because they believe they will benefit, and Republicans tend to oppose it because they believe they will be hurt.”

“My position is it’s not a good way to make public policy based on how it might impact an election sometime down the road,” he said. “Voting rights restoration is economically right, morally right and just the right thing to do.”

Trump’s presidency has not been favorable to Democrats, who are desperately clinging to every small hope of regaining electoral ground.

[Featured Image: Escaped Inmates via Florida Department of Corrections Facebook]


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“…that restoring voting rights to some 1.5 million Floridians will tip the scale in their favor.”

One and half million felons? In one state?? Good grief. WTH is wrong with Florida?

And why exclude murderers & rapists, you sunshine bigots? Don’t judge me, Bro!

It’s doubtful this initiative will pass a 60% vote threshhold since vote margins are barely 51/49 wide or less.

But weirder things have happened during this past year.

    Might as well ask “what the hell is wrong with New York, Cuba and PR,” because that’s where a lot of those felons came from.

    Florida is toast anyway, along with many other red states just a matter of time. Liberals have destroyed their blue states (California, CT, NY, etc.) with high taxes and burdensome regulations. Businesses and retirees are fleeing to low tax states. The problem is they are bringing their liberal, left progressive poison with them. You cannot convince them of reality, very intelligent people with a egalitarian utopian mental illness.

I’m not opposed to making restoration of rights automatic. However, the right to vote ought to be the LAST right restored, possibly at the same time as the right to bear arms, but certainly not after anything. The right to vote, after all, is the right to your share of power over others. Also, restoration of rights ought to require a minimum length of time post-release without conviction of any misdemeanors, not merely without felonies.

    rabidfox in reply to ecreegan. | January 24, 2018 at 11:59 pm

    I would also like to point out that Floridians with felony convictions can petition to have their rights restored. I think that is a good approach as opposed to a blanket restoration of rights.

      forksdad in reply to rabidfox. | January 26, 2018 at 1:19 pm

      They are felons not mensa. They do not have the impulse control or civic mindedness needed to do this on their own. Right now most are either planning new crimes, thinking about old crimes, or eating fruit loops while playing Xbox.

      No convicted felon should ever have voting rights restored.


I don’t think it is a good idea, but as the last man quoted says, not many of them will ever bother to actually vote. The whole “being a good citizen and doing your civic duty” just doesn’t work out that well with ex-cons.

But I think it would be worth publicizing the flaws in this, to keep it from passing. Hard to believe it could get 60% approval.

    forksdad in reply to Tom Servo. | January 26, 2018 at 1:21 pm

    They probably won’t vote but the numbers will be used to stuff boxes and cheat. You don’t really think 150% of inner city folks vote do you?

Another thing that will suppress voting by convicted felons is the same thing that prevents a lot of unconvicted felons (and general miscreants) from voting now…

Those involved in shady dealings (including paroled recidivists), or even those who have unpaid parking tickets or back child support payments, tend to avoid making personal appearances and identifying themselves at government-run facilities.

Plus Florida requires a photo ID when voting.

This won’t be an impediment to former felons who have truly turned their lives around, but that’s probably not an overwhelming percentage of the folks affected by this proposal.

I will be voting against this as should anyone with any level of common sense.

Love the tattoo of the lobster of on the neck of the criminal on the right. (Does he have a tattoo of a lobster bib on his chest?)

Great decision makers. Let him vote!

This is not good news for President Trump or the GOP. Midterms are notorious for having a lower turnout than generals and sitting presidents tend to lose Congressional seats (for numerous reasons, including the lower turnout, decreased voter enthusiasm in the president’s party because most voters don’t know how important it is for a president to have both houses of Congress, presidential (un)popularity, voter enthusiasm among the president’s base–which is being chipped away at by the media’s and Democrats’ operation demoralize, and how motivated the other party is to win).

With this initiative on the November ballot, progressives will flood the state to get out the vote. They’d be doing that already, of course, to win back the House (possibly even the Senate), but this will lend enthusiasm and another layer of motivation. That it won’t make much actual difference won’t matter to them (it never does, we know that), but it will matter to would-be voters who won’t care if it’s passed or not. Those against it, will vote, of course, but it’s hard to imagine this causing sufficient outrage that people will be mobilized to head to the polls and stop it.

This is not a good development for the midterms. I really really don’t want to spend next year writing about the House impeachment proceedings against President Trump. There has to be a way to keep the House (and Senate) in GOP hands. Even GOPe hands are better than Democrat ones; the GOPe wouldn’t dare to start impeachment proceedings, the Dems wouldn’t dare not to if they win the House (even without the Senate, they’ll be forced by their crazy base to pursue it.).


    Its called leadership, patrioism and dedication – all absent in the GOPe, which runs the GOP show.

    Till we kick out mcconnel and ryan from the GOP leadership position,we’ll continue to be sabotaged by them.

    We dont call it the uniparty for nothing.

    Besides, the rats of the GOPe are comfy hiding in the cracks, and probably looking forward to be back in the minority, trying to blame us deplorables (and Trunp) for the loss of the majority.

      You call it the uniparty, Fine, not everyone does. Most of us understand that while the Republican party has shifted left, the Democrat party has lunged into fringe social justice, commie lunacy. The GOPe, no matter how bad it is (and I will concede that it’s mushy and trying too hard to win Democrat votes it never will), is still not devoted to destroying American, communist policies, and the criminalization of being white.

      When you say “uniparty,” you have to know that this is completely untrue, right? Or you think that because today’s establishment republican looks a lot like JFK, this means that we have a uniparty . . . because in the middle of the last century, the Democrats held views (anti-communism, pro-American, lower taxes) that Republicans now embrace. That’s not logical. You get that, right?

      Have you looked at Democrats lately? They are completely unhinged un- and anti-American proponents of communism (they don’t even try to hide it anymore).

      Fine, this uniparty schtick is old (as in obsolete), tired, and patently inaccurate.

      Does the GOP lean too far left? Much farther so than its base? Oh, hell yeah! Are they commies bent on destroying the very fabric of our culture and society? Not so much.

      You are railing against something that doesn’t exist anymore, if it ever did. This is what happens right before republics fall: a portion of the populace exaggerates the problem, drums up support for their imaginary cause, and then destroys the entire republic. Often (always?) with glee. The result? It’s always the same; history tells us that when republics fall due to internal forces (I can think of none that have fallen by external forces, but there may be one), they are usurped, always, by tyrants.

      But hey, we can probably make it work, right? Just like the socialists and commies keep thinking they can make socialism and communism work? Sure, that’s the ticket!

      Fine, you are advocating a position that is dangerous not just to President Trump (I believe we need to support him, and that means–by the nature of our government–keeping majorities in both houses of Congress), but to our entire republic. Many of we late Trump supporters saw a clear choice: it was Hillary completing Obama’s “fundamental transformation” or it was Trump who promised to make America great again.

      That was a no-brainer for me. As I’m sure it was for you. Why cripple the president you support with such vigor by advocating a position that will lose him not only Congressional majorities but also, quite probably, his presidency.

      If your goal is to make America great again, to salvage our Republic, and to make massive progress in restoring America, then you have to support the president, and that means working hard to make sure he doesn’t lose the House (or Senate).

      If your goal is to tear it down, that’s the way to go. Waaaah, we hates those uglies who are RINOs and GOPes, they makes us so sad and mad. We stomps our feets at them and think that a Democrat who will vote to impeach President Trump is way way way better than a whimpy RINO GOPe loser who would never vote to impeach or convict President Trump.

      Or wait, are you really saying that an impeached and disgraced President Trump is good for America?

        Fuzzy, I realize that you are totally invested in the Republican party. And, that you see the Party as the route to power and control. You even sound like a conservative or Tea Party associate. Then you get all riled up and attempt to defend the GOP. The same party which lied to and marginalized conservatives for the last 30 years. The same party which turned its back on the Tea party movement. The same part which Gave us John McCain, Mitt Romney, Bob Dole and would have given us Jeb Bush, if it could have. If we wanted to elect liberals, we would vote for Democrats.

        What you have to understand is that the political landscape has changed, with the election of Donald Trump. He was not elected by Republicans [the party tried to kill his candidacy and hamstring him in the general]. He was elected by anti-Establishment voters. Many were grass roots conservative Republicans who were sick and tired of being given a choice between liberal wacko and liberal wacko lite. Who were tired of their party promising to do all kinds of things then refuse to do them when they could. They were tired of respected leaders of the Republican party, such as John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell spending as much, if not more of their time, on the other side of the aisle at they spent on theirs. And, they were tired of watching the Conservative wing of the Republican Party being hijacked by the Progressive leadership of the Party.

        Sure, some of us conservative voters actually hold our nose and vote for liberal/progressive Republicans, because the Dems are worse. But, no one is going to live that way forever. Look what the Party leadership did to Moore.

        Like it or not, the Republican party can either actually listen to its members and become a true anti-Establishment Party, or it will become a minor party whose power is stripped away by a third party, ceding the field to the liberal wacko Democrats.

          I see where you are coming from, Mac, and totally respect your viewpoint (as I do Fine’s). I’m a Tea Party conservative, not invested at all in the GOP, but I did learn some hard lessons as both a Tea Party member and a conservative. Lessons, I am sharing with you guys. Do with them what you will.

          We thought we had the world by the tail, too, and we were convinced that EVERYTHING had changed, that we were the silent majority who would change the course of our nation. We believed, as you do now, that we could do the difficult with ease. We were wrong. And so, my friend, are you.

          I’m here to tell you, you will have no more success replacing the GOPe than we did. In fact, you will have far less success because your message is negative and unpleasant. Where we wanted to “take our country back,” you guys seem intent on its destruction (at least if you don’t get your way. And you won’t.). You don’t have the same support and enthusiasm that the Tea Party enjoyed, you don’t have anything like the numbers. Get a Trump train rally going, and see who turns up, and compare it to our Tax Day rallies.

          We wanted the same thing you do; oust all GOPe RINO losers, replace them with “our” guys and gals. We were actually pretty effective, but people want immediate results, the Obama admin was unleashed against us, the media belittled and demeaned us, and (some, by no means all) people within the movement lost faith. Here’s the deal, if we couldn’t do it, you sure as heck can’t. You don’t have any support at all, there are relatively few die-hard Trumpsters, and your goal is amorphous and unworthy. Tear it down even if it means Dems take control is a rallying cry for the die-hard few who have no clue how things actually work or who are so convinced of their own blinding righteousness that they can’t see their immense folly.

          I’m just sayin’ Mac. Your ultimatum will result, with 100% probability, in a Democrat House. There is a lesser chance you’ll get yourself a fun and exciting, but not at all RINO, Senate. Once Trump’s out of office, your movement goes where? Does what?

          Learn from our experience or don’t; that’s completely up to you. But if the truly massive, enthusiastic, and dedicated (i.e. we did more than opine on blogs) Tea Party movement couldn’t get every single RINO replaced in two midterms, what on earth makes you think you can do it in one? Share, please, because I can’t imagine a scenario (that doesn’t involve a nuke on American soil) in which that happens this November.

          Mac45 in reply to Mac45. | January 25, 2018 at 11:15 am

          Fuzzy, you are still missing the point.

          This is not an ultimatum, this sea change has already occurred for the Republican party. In 2016, the anti-Establishment voters sent a clear message to the GOP. They elected an anti-Establishment candidate who had no previous political experience while at the same time returning all of the GOP Congress critters to office. The message was this is the change we want and will have get on board. However, the Republican politicians were simply too stupid to see that. Along comes Luther Strange. A reasonably likeable Republic politician running for Senate in the heavily Republican state of Alabama. He loses the primary to Roy Moore, a flaky Republican running as an anti-Establishment candidate. The GOP refuses to get behind him and he ultimately loses the general election to a Democrat. Why? Because the establishment Republican voters stayed home. The Republican Party is responsible for Moore’s loss, not anti-Establishment Republican voters.

          The GOP estranged its conservative base years ago. It ignored the Tea Party. It became the Democrat Party of the 1980s, running liberal Progressive candidates for national office. It became the slightly conservative wing of the Democrat party. when there was no chance of getting an Obamacare bill enacted into law, the GOP passed one in record time. When they could have gotten Trump’s signature on the bottom line, they could not pass anything. The Republican party, by ignoring its base, is destroying itself. When people feel that a political party does not represent their interests, they change parties. If no party represents their interests, they form a third party. And, that is likely to happen if the GOP does not pull it collective leadership head out of its butt and take a look around.

          Change has happened among the electorate. The Republican Party can swim against the tide and drown or swim with it and reach shore. The choice is entirely up to the Party.

          And, the smarter members of the Party realize that. Why do you think there have been so many GOP Congressmen announcing their retirement? You don’t see that happening on the Democrat side. The reason is because they are so publicly wed to the Establishment that they can’t win their upcoming primary.

          Now about the Tea Party. What hamstrung the Tea Party was two things. The first was allowing itself to become semi-organized. This allowed the Republican leadership to gain control of that movement, just as it did to the Conservative movement prior to that. The second thing was its limited message. The main goal of the Tea Party movement was fiscal responsibility. It was simply too limited to gain and hold significant support. The anti-Establishment groundswell is not organized. It has no name. It has not tried to establish any common identity. It is just a large number of individuals who independently share a desire for their elected representative to represent THEM, not the faceless Establishment interests in this country.


        If Trump has proved one thing, it’s that there is has been an ongoing conspiracy of sedition and corruption at the highest levels of our government. The cops on the watch have been the GOPe: they’ve not merely failed miserably, they’ve acted like corrupt NYC cops of the 1970s: bought off cheap by the NY mafia.

        Our Republic is rotting from within SOLELY because it has been ‘allowed’ to by people we voted for to protect it. There’s a reason PBS, NPR, the IRS, the FBI etc etc have been corrupted: we have the likes of john boehner bragging how he ‘absolutely trusts barack obama.’ We have sell-outs like McConnell becoming the head of the Senate, then IMMEDIATELY informing the base don’t expect him to oppose obama and the democrats. Congressional oversight of our nation’s federally funded schools, etc etc etc has been a joke. By allowing themselves to be led around by the nose by the democrat media, and then trying to sabotage a duly elected president they’ve destroyed any credibility they have – if not committed high crimes themselves. (I still think McCain will be found to have criminally conspired in getting that so-called ‘dossier’ created and disseminated.)

        It’d be a GREAT thing to destroy the GOPe: they are WORSE than useless: they are one big Sword of Damocles, waiting to drop right into our backs.

        The GOPe is akin to George W. Bush/Karl Rove (while not the traitors that obama and jarrett are): shepparding the nation to a soft landing in its decline – and picking up scraps along the way. (Btw, do you remember Bush bragging how he ‘changed’ the Republican party?)

        The uniparty is not nonsense: it’s reality, and is personified in the GOP by the likes of Jeff Flake, Romney, Bush, McCain, Graham, collins, murkowski etc.

        The Republican party impassions nobody: except party hacks and corrupt losers (boehner, flake) bent on destroying conservatives or outsiders. By impassioning nobody, they’ve left a GIANT vacuum that has been filed by the most vile leftists America could manage to produce – and produced solely because of GOPe hacks retiring in office instead of battling for our heritage and our future.

        In ONE year, Trump’s ascendancy has exposed our government (after 8 years of obama, boehner and mcconnell) being the most corrupt first world government in world history (except the Weimar Republic). You cannot (with a straight face, at least) tell anyone of us that the GOPe was not complicit – negligently, intentionally, or both) in the past several years of corruption.

        Like Chris Christie, the cops of the GOPe need to be put back in the donut shop where they were found sleeping, and stay there – if not prosecuted. (Again, I predict McCain, will be found to be criminally culpable in the seditious ‘dossier’ scam.)

        Our country will surely die if the GOPe gets its way and turns our country into the migrant powder keg that has become Europe. It will also surely die if the GOPe allows the tumor of the left to continue infesting our institutions – which the GOPe has the power to prevent.

        Observe the leftist garbage that is programmed in federally funded PBS:

        Same with NPR:

        Slow death, quick death, or fight to the death: which do you want? (I recommend the fight to the death: be a Donald Trump – you’ll most likely win.)

        Try imagining a ticker tape parade in NYC for returning US troops, as was held in the early 1990s.

        It be impossible now, because of terrorism infesting the country though immigration insanity like the ‘lottery.’ (Call them Schumer-bombers.)

        And who’d EVER thought an communist oaf would be elected mayor of NYC? – especially after we suffered through one that was elected president.

        Times have changed. But the GOPe hasn’t changed one bit from their country club roots.

        Though there was this near good news:

        Boehner’s bartender planned to poison him at Ohio country club:

          What? That makes no sense at all. You’re just saying that if you can imagine it, it can be. Reality, however, is a sledgehammer that will lay waste to your pie-in-the-sky dreams.

          In the meantime, yeah, go after the GOP, Trump’s chosen party, and get Democrats elected to majorities in the House (and possibly the Senate). Won’t it be fun to think about ticker tape parades then? What about when the moving vans move up to the White House in 24/7 media coverage? Won’t we find it comforting to know that we didn’t support any RINOs who might have kept Trump in office, making America great again? Wow, I can almost imagine the glory of a remembered ticker tape parade as our last, best hope is escorted from the White House. Sigh. So glorious to think of what should be or might have been! This stinking reality stuff bites, after all.

          Fuzzy,you reacting like I dont like Trump – I LOVE him. And I understand how he operates.

          My approach is to bring the GOPe to heel, not to remain extorted by them. The election of Trump change everthing,and everything is comingto a head. The race is on to expose the ongoing titanic sedition conspiracy before the election. Sessions is rowing a canoe instead of racing in a speex boat.

          Appoint special prosecutors, Sessions-and not friends of mueller or rosenstein.

          Calling: Rudy Guiliani.

How about change the whole system and base your votes on the amount of taxes you pay. For every $1,000 you pay in income tax, you get one vote. Pay $7,000 in income tax, you get 7 votes.

Unfair? No, letting people who have no skin in the game cancel the vote of someone that does. That’s fair.

2 words Chuck Coulson.

Why do felons lose their voting rights at all? What rehabilitative or punishment does it serve?

    Well, our justice system is built on the idea that you do the crime, you serve the time. You’ve paid your debt to society at the end of your sentence. Unless you prove yourself to be an enemy of civil society (typically a murderer, child molester, etc.), you get your rights restored when you have paid the penalty–done the time–for your crime.

    Considering that our justice system is also built on the idea that it’s better for one hundred guilty men to go free than one innocent be punished, this seems reasonable. I’m all for recidivists not being granted voting rights, but we bastardize the moral foundation of our justice system by piling penalties on top of a duly-served sentence that was duly delivered in a court of law.

    By the way, criminals probably don’t think, “Gee, if I kill this guy, I’ll never be able to vote again” and then decide to move along without killing that guy. People who are prone to commit crimes rarely vote in the first place, and as the study quoted in this piece shows, very few would do so even if granted the right. Generally speaking, criminals aren’t very interested in their civic responsibilities.

    It’s part and parcel of a felon losing his/her/its freedom. Beats prison.

    forksdad in reply to Notanymore. | January 26, 2018 at 1:31 pm

    Why can’t a child molester hang out at a play ground? Why do we restrict felons from owning firearms? The same reason for both, they’ve proven they have no impulse control.

    They lack prudent judgement and horse sense. It is no more a punishment than not allowing a thirteen year old to vote. Making them go through the steps to get their rights reinstated is one way to demonstrate some future planning and maturity.

“Democrats assume they will vote Democrat” They have history and statistics on their side. Those who vote will tend to vote for Democrats. In places like Arkansas, where money was used to to “get people to the polls”, and “walking around money” in other former Democrat strongholds, I’d surmise that previously convicted felons wouldn’t have any qualms about selling their vote.

    “I’d surmise that previously convicted felons wouldn’t have any qualms about selling their vote….”

    Well, not the deep-thinking felons, like Lobster Boy at the top of this post. You know, as Lobster Boy relaxes in his cell, instead of contemplating how to make his next shiv, this kind of thinking probably goes through his mind:

    “So many Americans in this country are liberal and Democrat just because that is what they have always been, and this political stance is presented as the only intelligent and humane stance one can have—but they don’t live life like liberals. They are for family and against abortion, they want jobs, not handouts, they believe that capital punishment is sometimes necessary, they want to have the right to own guns to protect their family, and they want government out of their schools, churches, and homes. If we can get them to see, they too will not be able to un-see, and we might just restore America.”

    How I Realized I’m A Conservative:

    In fact: Oprah/Lobster Boy in 2020!

In 1868 the legislature would probably have been overwhelmingly democrat.

Normally, a large infusion of Democrat voters would only really affect the gubernatorial, senatorial and Presidential races. The individual districts will not be too heavily affected, unless a large number of new Dem voters actually move into those districts. Population increases in developed areas could trigger reapportionment, which could change representational make-up of the state Legislature and possibly Congress. But, it is not going to change a lot. Most Republican districts will continue to elect Republicans and most Democrat district will still seat a Dem. It could change the odds for whether a Dem or Repub wins the WH, probably in the favor of the Dems.

Florida already has a problem with Dem voter growth, this year. An estimated 200,000 Puerto Ricans may have moved to areas of Florida since Maria struck the island and most of them, if not all, are likely Democrats. As you noted in your previous article on the matter [ ], if enough stay and register to vote there, this could easily sway the three previously mentioned elections for the Dems.

    forksdad in reply to Mac45. | January 26, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    No completely wrong. Many felons move to the town they were incarcerated in. Their wives or girlfriends are there. Their kids are in school their etc.

    The town’s that are in bf Egypt don’t have that problem as much but it still happens. I watched a town change in fifteen years from that very phenomenon.

Full restoration of civil rights would include registration to vote, service on juries and the right to keep and bear arms without government infringement.

Then again, people in some parts of the United States who are not convicted felons do not enjoy full civil rights.

In a state where elections are routinely reported as being won or lost by margins under 10K (sometimes well under 10K), it seems very apparent that giving 1.5M felons their vote back would turn a large number of elections.

I’m guessing that he was attacking a democrat using that democrats own words.

Rather than amend Florida’s Constitution, perhaps the Florida judges could make it clear at sentencing that incarceration is only a part of their punishment. Sex offenders continue to have their rights restricted after release from prison, so there is no reason to treat convicted felons any better.

Most proposed Amendments to the Florida Constitution passed (including many about things that clearly were not Constitutional issues and don’t belong in a Constitution, such as what size classrooms should be in schools), until a few years ago someone slipped one in requiring 60% to pass.

If all the Democrats vote for it along with a few non-thinking Republicans, it may get more than 50%, but it still won’t pass.

Does the 1.5 million figure double or triple count repeat offenders?