Well, here we are: Verdict Watch.
The jury has been charged in Florida v. Zimmerman, and have begun their deliberations. The verdict form is here. Final Jury Instructions here.
Last night they asked for an inventory list of the evidence–which makes sense given the dozens of witnesses and hundreds of exhibits. Now, we here at Legal Insurrection (and Law of Self Defense) are on stand-by ready to jump into action as soon as news emerges, whether that is the verdict itself or some lesser item. The video feeds located below the fold will be active when the broadcasters that control them feel there is something worth streaming.)
In a breaking development, the Special Prosecutor’s Office of Angela Corey has fired the IT specialist who blew the whistle on the prosecution’s concealment of evidence:
State Attorney Angela Corey fired her office’s information technology director Friday after he testified last month about being concerned prosecutors did not turn over information to George Zimmerman’s defense team in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
On the same day attorneys finished their closing arguments in that nationally watched trial, a state attorney investigator went to Ben Kruidbos’ home about 7:30 a.m. to hand-deliver a letter stating Kruidbos “can never again be trusted to step foot in this office.”
(WAJ adds) This has been a dirty prosecution in so many ways, so no one should be surprised that as soon as the jury went into deliberations the retaliation began.
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Tweets from @LegInsurrection/zimmerman-trial
[For live-stream video without commentary, see NBC live feed at bottom of this post.]
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Saturday, July 13 Commentary
This past weekend I posted up an analytical piece of Mark O’Mara’s request for a judgment of acquittal. O’Mara’s motion was well-reasoned and supported by Florida’s case law. It was, of course, doomed to peremptory denial by Judge Nelson. In that piece I’ve linked almost all of the case citations made by O’Mara to full-length copies of the decisions, so you can see the sources for yourselves, if you like (most of the decisions are gratifyingly brief). You can see that here:
Why Zimmerman’s Motion for Acquittal Should Have Been Granted
Last Thursday, July 4, I had posted up a review of the trial to date, with some prognostication of how things may role out in the coming days. To take a look at that, click here:
Zimmerman Trial Review– How We Got Here, And Where We’re Going
For all of our prior coverage on day-to-day events in court, as covered here at Legal Insurrection, click here:
ARCHIVE: Zimmerman Trial LIVE coverage all day, every day
For all of our prior coverage on issues specific to the Law of Self Defense as covered at my own blog, click here:
Law of Self Defense Blog: Zimmerman Trial
(NOTE: If you do wander over to the LOSD blog, be sure to come back to Legal Insurrection to comment, as nearly all my time is spent here for the duration of the trial.)
Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense,” now available in its just released 2nd Edition, which shows you how to successfully fight the 20-to-life legal battle everyone faces after defending themselves. Take advantage of the 20% “Zimmerman trial” discount & free shipping (ends when the jury returns a verdict). NRA & IDPA members can also use checkout coupon LOSD2-NRA for an additional 10% off. To do so simply visit the Law of Self Defense blog. I have also instituted a similar coupon for Legal Insurrection followers LOSD2-LI(Coupons works ONLY at www.lawofselfdefense.com.) “The Law of Self Defense, 2nd Edition” is also available at Amazon.com.
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Comments
After reading the letter to the IT guy at the SAO’s office, my take is that it smacks for all the world of ass covering in anticipation of the sanctions hearing.
Txt,
It would be funny if….. I am listening to his testimony yet again as we type. Over at conservative treehouse dot com they show the history of the gal who fired him.
This Corey creep and Bernie sure surround themselves with
people who have been fired everywhere else. It will take years to go through the cases they have been involved with.
meant to add thank you for your posts.
Did you notice on page three the defense atty he gave information to said he felt he had an axe to grind? huh wonder who that was? MOM or West hint not the later……..
And there is SOOOOOO much ass to cover…
Watch the vid at aprox 50 minutes in Bernie starts cross and listen to what he says compare that to the letter he got when fired. The vid is over at conservsative treehouse dot com if I knew how to post a diff link in this thread I would. Frightening stuff such people have such power….
Do you mean this one? http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/07/13/oh-hellz-to-the-no-angela-corey-fires-ben-kruidbos/#more-66050
AC is a dangerous, vindictive witch – and she’s more corrupt than Mike Nifong. The APC was all the proof I needed, but her hits keep coming.
Jail is too good for those who abuse the extraordinary power and responsibility with which they are entrusted.
I hate to say it, but it doesn’t look good for the defense at this point. I was not surpised that the jury didnt return a verdict, despite the obvious strong case for a self-defense full aquittal, yesterday afternoon. They didn’t get the case until 2pm or so, had housekeeping matters to attend to, and I expected them to intentionally avoid any impression of “rushing to an aquittal to get home for the weekend”. But…I did expect them to return a defense verdict (on all charges) today and probably in the morning.
It appears there is a hung jury and that is about the best possible outcome GZ could realistically hope for at this point. It is very disappointing that these 6 women (or at least 1 of the 6) has apparently been swayed by the state’s ridiculous emotional/non-evidentiary appeal that required massives leaps of assumption to justify. This jury is NOT following the law or the jury instructions thatis clear.
No offense (don’t shoot the messenger here!) but 6 unbiased, open-minded men would have voted for full aquittal by virtue of self-defense hours ago. The facts and testimony in this case are no-brainers for SD and the prosecution utterly failed to get anywhere near “beyond a reasonable doubt”. This is a farce.
You don’t, and can’t, know that.
I agree with you but men and women do think and reason differently. It seems strange to me that there are not any men on the jury, given that is is supposed to be a jury of your peers and that both TM and GZ are/were male. Why would the attorneys not want any men on the jury?
There is ONE hispanic male alternate juror. A token perhaps to head of the challenge of a peerless jury?
He was and alternate and he was dismissed yesterday. The jury is six (6) women.
LadyGrey,
Of course, there are non-physical general differences between men and women. It isn’t “sexist” to acknowledge that obvious truth.
Common sense example: Mom and dad are out front doing some chores, gardening, etc. Their 5 yo boy is playing nearby on the sidewalk in front. He trips and falls, skinning his knee up. He runs, crying and screaming toward his house looking first for … his MOTHER. He instinctively knows she is the one who will better soothe him, empathisize with him, calm his fear, dry his tears, comfort him, etc., etc. What does dad do? He checks out the wound and then goes in the house to get the first aid kit while mom holds him. That’s the way it goes most of the time (many times for me as a kid too). Mom is the nurturer/caregiver/comforter, dad is the “fix-it” guy.
The women on this jury are basically having to assign blame for a teen’s death. If they choose GZ, he’s found guilty. Otherwise they have to asign blame to TM for starting/continuing a fight that allows GZ to rightfully act in self-defense. I fear that these ladies may fall prey to not assigning that blame emotionally to the dead “victim” they’ve seen gory autopsy and death photos of rather than the chubby, fully-healthy defendant sitting in the courtroom.
I certainly hope I am wrong as that would be a huge injustice and everything else (unemotional facts, testimony, common sense, the requirements of the law) says the opposite. Logic and rationality demand a full acquittal here. The prosecution knows that which is why John Guy’s final closing remarks were entirely based on sympathy, emotion, and “the human heart”.
Correct…as in no one can ever know anything non-scientifically-verifiable with certainty ever. But, using common sense, I stand by my statement.
There’s no doubt that the state, esp Guy in the final commentary, made their appeal on an entirely emotional basis. He littered it with deceptive words/phrases like “child” and “scared, just trying to get home” and appeals to “the human heart”. He presented no facts whatsover and no testimony or testimony to reinforce his ridiculous assumptions. It was purely a play on the natural caregiving and nuturing instincts that women generally have in greater abundance compared to men. Lets be honest here–it was the only card he had to play and he played it well.
Based stricty on the logical facts/testimony, not sympathy or a desire to please, the prosecution has no case here and we all know that. Especially when you consider that they have the burden of proof. I really really hope I am wrong, but I do believe that by this point the jury is hung (at best) and someone(s) there is clinging to a conviction based NOT on facts-in-evidence.
There really isn’t a hard and fast rule re: jury verdicts.
Take a look at these famous trials and how long it took the jury to arrive at a verdict.
The article you linked is just more confirmation that this delay is bad for George. The Casey Anthony jury came back in 40 minutes, OJ Simpson in 4 hours; seems that when it goes in to days long deliberations there is a conviction, except for Robert Blake who was acquitted after 35 hours – but he was a celebrity and they always get away with murder! No kidding; google “celebrity murder trials.” Anyway, we are only up to about 10 hours right now, and that jury wants to go home, like right now!
Casey Anthony jury took 10 hours and 40+ minutes.
Oops! Casey’s was 10 hours and 40 minutes.
Maybe it has more to do with the way men and women shop. Men go to buy a shirt. They go directly to shirt dept. buy and leave.
Women go to buy a shirt but start in the shoe dept. then go to lingerie dept. then hit the shirts. They can spend hours more and just buy a shirt.
As a woman I’d not be surprised if one or more of the jurors refused to follow the letter of the law and demanded some sort of “punishment” for Mr Zimmerman. Some of us are just as logical, reasoned and capable as men in such situations, but many of us are simply ruled by the emotions and cannot escape that defect. Just the way it is. When I saw that it was a jury of all women I worried about that–what are the odds of getting six women who are logical, reasoned and methodical, capable of setting aside any emotional component?
It’s gonna be another long night for me. I can’t imagine what the Zimmermans are enduring.
I don’t think we’ll get a verdict today.
The reason may be a combination of all the speculative reasons we have been considering.
The reason may be a combination of all the speculative reasons we have been considering.
That statement is almost ambiguous enough to land you on BdlR’s team! lol
[…] Full story here. […]
I did not “follow” the Casey Anthony trial per se; intermittently read some articles /updates at same sites where many here also read and provide links to. I do remember, though, that that jury came back with a verdict in ~2hrs.(IIRC?)
I have followed this case since March 2012. Maybe, just maybe—these jurors are aware of that basically non-existent jury deliberation and do not want to be criticized as those jurors were, accused of not deliberating.
I’ve been following this case for that long, as well. However, I can’t agree that you’d get six people to reach a verdict and then all play along as though they’re actually deliberating at length.
I’d like to believe that, but it’s almost a mini-conspiracy – tough to get monolithic buy-in from any group of more than about three folks…
Oh, I do not think they are playing along at all. I hope they are truly going over their notes, the evidence, all of it.
~12hrs. Not 2hrs. Sorry. 😳
as long as one juror knows it self defense, they will never convict
That is the hope I’m hanging on.
Well well well.
Will ya look at this?
(from an earlier poster’s link to the OS story on the IT guy’s (Kruidbos) firing.
” . . .news reports in February that Corey approved using about $342,000 in taxpayer dollars to upgrade pensions for herself and de la Rionda. Kruidbos said the investigation might have stemmed from the stories about the pensions.”
AZ_Langer | July 13, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Link to the story: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-whistleblower-fired-20130713,0,2426704.story
Wyn,
It just gets more surreal by the minute and I thought was up to date! I am listening/watching BDLR’s cross exam of him ( I must have been abducted by aliens that day as I don’t recall it at all, or was stacking wood ) this is brutal.
I have been following the trial, analysis and commentaries at this site. Thanks to insurrection.
I have a number of questions but I’ll limit myself to this one, for now: did Ms. Jeantel not raise the line of questioning leading to Trsyvon’s fighting when she testified that Trayvon would have told her if he was going to fight (or words to that effect)?
I wished that the defense, in closing, had commented about the prosecution not banging his head on the chunk of concrete to prove how minor the injuries were.
A Florida jury acquitted Casey Anthony after 11 hours of deliberation. I still have hope given we are now in hour 9. Although I too am very worried about a stealth juror.
Given the Obama administration would use taxpayer dollars to organize and bus protestors to Justice for TM rallies then I don’t see what is so outrageous that they would try to stack the jury.
Remember folks that the human heart that Guy was talking about contains the ability to kill someone for a few pennies. There is a lot more at stake here. Our 2nd amendment rights, our system of liberty that the defendant has the presumption of innocence when confronted by the power of the state, our rights for self-defense. I refuse to be so naive to think that those who want power will not do everything possible to acquire it, keep it, and expand it.
That they would find people willing to participate in this isn’t difficult to imagine either. Consider that here is only one whistleblower on the Corey prosecution withholding evidence.
An excellent comment, Judy. I appreciate the fact that there are more of us women on Legal Insurrection who value our liberties than on so many websites.
I think any verdict will provide a lot of repercussions.
If a guilty verdict is reach people are going to fear to use self defense in a beating and sit there and take it. Even if the next blow could kill them.
If a not guilty verdict is reached, there will be people that kill someone and claim self defense even if there was obviously not self defense.
the best possible solution is a hung jury with no re trial
If our Founding Fathers were as wishy-washy as you are, we’d be calling an elevator a lift, and a flashlight a torch.
Thank G-d they had the courage of their convictions!
I’m pretty sure you can post “God” here Fabi, it is not a profane, at least not to most of America! 😉
Just an FYI, DB. Jews never spell the name of God out. They always write it as G-d. It’s a religious convention for them based on biblical imperatives. I have no idea if fabi is Jewish or not, but he may respect those conventions as well.
Wow – you beat me to it! Cheers to you, as well!
Their god used to have a name that the shortened out of respect to part of the name, then they dropped that in favor of “God”, and they shortened that to “G_d”.
I’m wondering what next. It’s sort of humorous, really.
A religious convention, actually. But I appreciate the comment nonetheless… Cheers.
The “permanently aggrieved” crowd will never let the State get away with not trying this case again.
BS on your “expanded killings” concern.
In Houston, a Harris County jury (pretty conservative) rejected a “self-defense/SYG” claim by a veteran Houston firefighter.
They had no trouble finding his claim was bogus, as it was.
People move for many reasons. To further speculate on B29- Did she move TO Florida or AWAY from Chicago? That’s not a semantic difference. I’d place odds on AWAY from Chicago.
And being from Chicago, I would also bet she knows what The Knockout Game is. She knows who plays it, and who they play it on. People just like what Obama’s son would look like are the primary players. (Could be only players- I haven’t yet read of others.) People like Zimmerman are who they play it on. Zimmerman was sucker punched…
INHO, she’s not the holdout for guilty.
From Chicago is correct.
She also has 8 children. Ceteris paribus, this alone makes me wonder how she can be sequestered for many weeks without issue. And she moved to Sanford for a part-time nursing job? She can take this many weeks off from a part-time job that she has only started within the last year? Again, with 8 kids?
I don’t share your optimism, at all.
I hear what you’re saying, but do you think she was paid to do this? Moving from Chicago to FL with 8 kids is a big step. But since she has 8 kids, doesshe have a husband or relative caring for them in her absence? Maybe she moved here to be near family or her husband’s work transferred him, something like that perhaps? If she was paid, won’t that eventually come out and be grounds for a mistrial?
I guess my comment could need a small tin-foil hat, but when I made my juror matrix (yes, I have an exciting social life!) duration in Seminole County was my second red flag; only behind those who said they watched the Weather Channel and didn’t know about the case, i.e., stunning bs.
I can’t read your cursive up there^^.
Sir.
Doggone if that ain’t food for thought .
It really is looking hung at this point…. question is can they un-hang it, and is there more than one holdout? If there is one woman refusing to acquit, I bet it’s the oldest juror. No good reason, just a gut.
Here’s a better link to the IT guy’s firing story:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-07-13/story/state-attorney-angela-corey-fires-information-techonology-director-who
….can’t believe I am actually lost in the twilight zone of verdict watch……
I so Wish this entire case would become a cautionary text on media and political misconduct
My question; can the IT tech being fired affect an appeal if there is a conviction in the GZ case?
Is this some further way for Corey and BLDR to obstruct justice?
Dollz,
As someone said about 300 comments ago how many lawsuits does Florida intend to settle?
This is a cluster…. and very frightening. It seemed obvious to me was a major piddle contest tween state and the defense all along, but geeze just how much of this trial was about them and not GZ? my gosh
Same concerns here ColonialGal, and BTW I also agree w/ you on West, I really loved his presence in court. Passionate about Facts.
The more I look into it the more the political infighting is exposed. On some show today one reporter hypothesized that Corey is resented and disliked by Sanford and Seminole County law enforcement personnel. She is viewed as an outsider and they resent her invasion of their turf.
Same reporter says that’s one reason the detective (forgot his name – a state witness) basically supported GZ, just like most of the other Sanford personnel.
Another source said the GZ case got ginned up at Change.org which garnered 2.2 million votes for action in an online petition opposed to the Sanford PD’s decision not to prosecute him with 30,000 votes from Sanford.
I don’t know if that’s true and I don’t know who’s behind Change.org but I can guess and his first name also starts with a G.
So the Sanford AG resigned, Scott appointed Corey and this is where we are today.
And now we find out the DOJ financed some of the anti-GZ protests last year, POTUS has said his son would look like Trayvon, etc., etc.
Poor Zimmerman is caught in the middle, a political pawn instead of an ordinary defendant in a trial.
It stinks.
IT director in Zimmerman case is fired
Man testified office withheld evidence from defense team
Kruidbos testified before Zimmerman’s trial began that Martin’s cell phone contained images of Martin blowing smoke, images of marijuana and deleted text messages regarding a transaction for a firearm and that those images had not been given to Zimmerman’s defense team.
He received the termination letter, dated July 11, on Friday, the same day jurors began deliberating Zimmerman’s case. The letter states: “It has come to our attention that you violated numerous State Attorney’s Office (SAO) policies and procedures and have engaged in deliberate misconduct that is especially egregious in light of your position.”
Kruidbos said that, when he printed a 900-page Florida Department of Law Enforcement report from Martin’s cell phone in late 2012 or early 2013, he noticed information was missing.
Concerned that attorneys did not have all the information they needed to prepare the case, he said, he reported his concerns to a State Attorney’s Office investigator and later to prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.
Kruidbos said he generated a report that was more than three times the size of the one that had been handed over.
For example, Kruidbos said that 2,958 photos were in the report given to the defense but that his report contained 4,275 photos.
*********************************
But the defense said Kruidbos’ testimony supports its claim that the state violated the rules of discovery.
“When it takes me six months to get a color picture of my client, when the first one I get is a black and white, when I look at it and go, ‘This is off a cell phone; cell phones don’t take black-and-white pictures,’ and I ask for a color copy, that takes two months,” defense lawyer Mark O’Mara said Wednesday in an interview with CNN’s Martin Savidge.
“And then I get a pastel-colored color copy of it, and it takes me to file a motion and have a hearing set before I get the actual .jpeg, no, that’s frustrating. That should not happen. I’ve done this too long to make believe in my own mind that that’s happenstance.”
O’Mara said he learned about the missing information months after he was to have received it. “The only way that we really found out about it … and the only way that we really found out about the intensity of the failure to give us information was when a person from their own office, a whistle-blower, came forward and said, ‘I gave them that information in the middle to end of January’ and we didn’t get it until June 4th.”
He said he was “beyond” shocked. “It could have derailed the trial,” he said.
The defense said it did not get the complete report until a few days before the trial. O’Mara and co-counsel Don West argued that they needed more time to go through the information found on Martin’s phone and asked for a delay, which was denied.
http://www.kjct8.com/news/IT-director-in-Zimmerman-case-is-fired/-/163152/20964888/-/dpcxst/-/index.html
Did y’all know that MOM is the president of the Seminole County Bar? His charges of pros improprieties in discovery are gonna have serious weight.
Hope you are right, this is such a ClusterFu€% of malfeasance – I Sincerely Hope there is some justice somewhere sometime somehow….
You don’t get to be president of the bar by making enemies. Not sure MOM wants to make enemies of the power structure. Could this trial have been all theatre? I hope I’m wrong.
Interesting!
but ! Will he pursue it . Pressure is now on MOM i believe . He has shown a passion for his client an a tremendous knowledge of the law . Political trial peeps don’t like a non-player
IOW, “the fix” was in.
That means the texts and photos on TM’s phone COULD have been verified by the defense, negating the judge’s concern, if the state hadn’t withheld the evidence.
Hmmm. Why would they fire him today and why would it be all over the news?
Something new: Example: Not long ago, the office of a law firm representing one of the State Dept. whistle blowers was burgled on the weekend. Monday, the State spox was asked if was one of their guys. Answer was no, but everybody now thinks the relationship between what the feds say and the truth is strictly a matter of convenience. Two years ago, only plot-blocked adventure authors would have thought of that.
So: Is it possible that one or more jurors fears the feds? IRS. NSA. Release of medical records. “Three felonies a day”. The Soc. Scty. admin recently released 100k SSAN. An accident. Easy enough to throw a deliberate outing into the next error batch. And to throw the fear of God, so to speak, into the jurors, nothing need be said by anybody to them. It’s all out there.
I guess if they were paranoid and delusional they might think that way.
Joe the Plumber asked the Lightworker an unscripted question which caused the Lightworker to say what he meant but shouldn’t have said at that point. Result was that Joe the Plumber’s supposedly private life got that rectal thing you’re supposed to have every five years. Just low-level civil servants doing their duty.
Read about that. Connected to the HRC SD.
At this point, with all the disclosures of NSA snooping, IRS corruption, DOJ going after reporters, EPA with fake emails addys and now this sham trial in Florida it’s no wonder so many are suspicious of government agencies.
I’m going to say it again: I. Don’t. Trust. This. Jury.
It’s all women, plus a male alternate.
The prosecutors knew well they could play all emotions. All “Feeeeel sorry for that poor mama who’ll never see her little angel again!” All “If you don’t convict this man, you’re a RACIST!” All “Ignore the evidence against “Mama’s Little Angel!” Facts be damned.”
And I say that as a woman.
And no, the male alternate doesn’t count.
Duch, I don’t trust them because I don’t trust a damn thing about this travesty, the woman thing is moot. This is making ZERO sense to me a jury who said NO when asked for breaks is taking every break they can now.
The top three choices that I have seen on the board today, in no particular order:
1) No verdict, they took a vote and it was not unanimous, so arguing/stress = hung jury.
2) They reached a verdict, but they are just messing around for no particular reason, maybe doing makeup and wardrobe adjustments, or dragging out the clock to make it look “official.”
3) No verdict, they never took a vote, they are just methodically going through the evidence until such a time when it will be (more) appropriate to actually take a vote.
Alternates were all dismissed yesterday and that dude was gone a couple of weeks before that for “unrelated reasons.” (Not saying that’s shady, just that’s the way it was reported).
If nothing else, a hung trial means the payday for the race merchants, TM’s parents included, will be delayed.
Some folks on here were saying the other day that Florida law won’t allow a civil lawsuit if Zimmerman is found not guilty in criminal court due to self defense. I would like to hear more about that from a lawyer with knowledge of Florida law. Also, if it is true that he would be protected from a civil suit if found not guilty, I’m guessing a hung jury would not afford him that protection, even if the state decided against another trial.
What is true is that self defense will be an absolute defense in a civil suit – there is no way to prevent a suit from being filed. The criminal jury can not report the reason for acquittal.
So long as he is in criminal jeopardy (such as a new trial) a civil suit can not go forward.
But if the state declined to have a second trial after a hung jury it seems he would no longer be in criminal jeopardy. That’s why I’m concerned about civil lawsuits if found not guilty. Traymom and Crump are going to get every dime they possibly can.
Disclaimer: The following has nothing to do with the evidence or legal status of case but consists of just some personal observations about the perception of some of the facts and evidence in the case. Since things are sort of slow as we await the verdict I thought I would share with you my thoughts about an issue that really bugged me about the prosecution. If you are in a hurry I would just skip over it as it is rather long for a comment. But if you have a little extra time you might find it interesting.
The prosecution drove me crazy with constant claims about how much GZ lied about everything. I know this goes on all the time in trials but in this case it was exaggerated to the extreme of an internet talking point used by no-nothings as the ultimate proof positive that GZ is a liar. Of course it was exaggerated ad infinitum because the prosecution had NOTHING to go on other than ill-will, hatred, depravity, and the devious liar charges.
We all know that most of the inconsistencies are immaterial and the natural result of changes in the retelling due to further remembrances, trying to explain something in more detail, etc. But sometimes one wonders why a specific instance happens, especially if one version or the other sounds odd. This one sounded odd so I tried to resolve it at least to my satisfaction.
You may recall BDLR’s little “tra-la-la” fairy dance during the closing when he played the Hannity interview tape where GZ said TM didn’t exactly run but that he sort of ‘skipped’. Obviously GZ had said TM was running on the Non-Emergency line call in real time. This was one of the lies that prosecutors say proved he was the most devious criminal mind since Moriarty.
When I listened to the interview tape I wondered to myself why GZ would describe the running as “he sort of skipped” (or something to that effect). It didn’t seem to make sense he would try to deceive by saying TM actually skipped away or even by telling us earlier that TM was running . This is a strange ‘deception’ to say the least and what was to be gained by it.
After a bit of pondering (sorta like Jethro’s cyphering but without numbers) it hit me that there are two different types of movements that might fit the description generally though they are not actually the skip we associate with a child skipping down a sidewalk.
First consider that TM begins running (not sprint type speed, just running) in a straight line directly away from GZ. Assume TM is far enough away that he is not afraid of being over taken so speed is not an immediate factor. Now TM wants to look back to watch see GZ’s reaction. In order to continue running and also look directly back say over his right shoulder he can’t really turn his head far enough to see GZ so he has to rotate his torso to the right. That shifts the upper body around so much that his left shoulder is now near to pointing into the direction he is running. His hips also shift with his left hip pointing more toward the direction of the run.
The more extreme the rotation the harder it is to put one foot in front of the other so he has to change the pattern to placing left foot forward then bringing right foot up and placing it likely somewhere immediately behind the left and then pushing off on the right foot putting the left foot forward again. This would not produce a skip exactly but is would definitely produce a jerky looking pace or gait which would change depending on the degree of rotation of the body and the pace. It seems to me it is conceivable that someone watching this from a distance on a dark rainy night could perceive this as a skip (for lack of a better term) more than a normal gaited running.
If the rotation of the body proceeds to the point where your hips are parallel to the direction you running you have to shift to what I guess one would call a shuffle movement where one moves laterally typically with legs spread apart to a degree. Think of a baseball player on third stretching a lead toward home on a pitch.
Such lateral steps could be smooth or jerky (jumpy) looking depending on how exaggerated they are. Think of that base runner watching a long fly ball as he inches toward home and then his gait becomes exaggerated ( but still lateral movement) as he watches the ball sail over the fence for a home run and he watches his teammate round the bases.
Now imagine TM lined up with GZ with his right foot toward GZ and his left foot in the other direction. He can shuffle away from GZ while keeping an eye of GZ’s reaction and be ready to break into a sprint immediately. I think the shuffle could be described as a skip mostly because of the motion of the body. It is a series of short lateral moves or jumps making it jerky looking which might even look more similar to a skip than running from a distance.
I think it would be reasonable to assume that TM may have used either of these two movements at least when he started ‘running’ to watch for GZ’s reaction. It depends on where he was in relation to GZ , the distance between them, and probably the distance to the point where here would be out of GZ’s line of site and he could shift to a different gait. If any material distance existed between the two at the start of the run I’m sure TM was certain that he could easily outpace GZ in a foot race.
The more I thought about it TM may have actually even used an exaggerated skip to capture GZ’s attention. It sounds a bit like a child’s game where you are trying to stay just out of the reach of someone and you are constantly moving so you can easily burst into a sprint for a quick getaway.
In any event, once TM was close to or past a point where GZ could not drive he did not need immediate break-away speed, particularly if he was relatively near place where he effectively disappear from GZ’s view into the darkness with a significant lead. It seems reasonable that TM might have been watching back to see what GZ’s response would be.
Not that this ‘Busts’ the myth of the lie. The only things that could do that is direct proof and only GZ knows for sure. But, I think it does give an indication that at least there is a plausible explanation to his description of ‘skipping’.
sure! what better way to get him to follow. he probably had gz sized up pretty good-except for the gun.
Thanks – It was my guess all along that once TM got close enough to his safe harbor (the unit he was staying at) he felt free to run into the darkness without fear of being overtaken.
Excellent post! I particularly like the “man on 3rd” baseball analogy, because the player on base may need to run back to his bsse. Or could be preparing to steal home.
And, then there’s O’Mara’s closing argument where he used a tossed football to show you the “length” of the field.
As O’Mara said about this whole trial it has been BIZARRO. Adding BDLR’s “skipping” to the already strange list of how the prosecutors used everything in their power to discredit Zimmerman, only made me think this “skipping bit” did not change what Zimmerman saw. Only that it made Trayvon Martin’s behaviors more questionable. Heck, maybe, he did skip … because he was “dancing” with Dee-Dee on his cell phone? (Add in the State’s suggesting that Zimmerman’s injuries came from tree branches. And, Guy’s “50 shades of gray” male manikin … And, yet again, we approach the same crossroads. You can’t convict a man on this stuff, can you?
one wood hope not…really!
Thanks for your comments and glad you appreciated the analysis. I’m an analysis type person and try to resolve some of the oddities in case to my own satisfaction. Of course most of the time issue ones are obvious to everyone and have been addressed by everyone and his sister so after addressing them to my own satisfaction I started looking at some of the others, especially the ones involving conversations where just words and perceptions are paramount. I really looked at the whole issue of the street address and not knowing the street name until I resolved that one to my satisfaction also.
Quote:
“It sounds a bit like a child’s game”
Careful, careful; something about that part sounds like reality. George was really/truly dealing with a juvenile, he just did not understand that the kid wanted a fight and George walked face first right in to the “child’s game.”
Good analysis, but more fundamentally it is normal for eye witnesses (under stress) to get a lot of the details of an event wrong, as demonstrated in academic studies. Inaccuracy on points like this is really not a proof that someone is lying. Misremembering, yes. But remember, we are asking Zimmerman to record events with complete fidelity while he is also calculating how to avoid getting killed. In the dark.
I understand completely about about the misremembering, the perceptions, etc. as you might note at the beginning of the analysis. What I was trying to address was the prosecution’s attempt to label it as a lie based on the assumption that ‘skipping’ was so absurd that it couldn’t be possible ergo GZ couldn’t be trusted to tell the truth on anything.
Oddly enough skipping did sound weird but in considering the potential situations it seemed to indicate that the statement might actually be bolstering GZ’s credibility.
That’s a pretty good theory, thanx. That comment by GZ stuck out to me as well and I couldn’t figure out why he would say such a thing if he were being deceptive. Not the kind of description a pathological criminal mastermind would offer up… I was thinking in the direction of the giant can in the kangaroo pocket of his hoody myself since I know what it feels like when I stick a couple of cold ones up there to take out to the deck…
Good analysis … now let me through a wrench it in. Look at the 7-11 tape. It is hard to see but it appears that TM belong to the pants belted below the ass… saggy bottom boys club.
Now how does one run when their pants are belted on their thighs?
I am sure the prosecution did not want to confirm that TMs pant were belted below his groin because it might have impacted everything from his running to his straddling… as well as the totally disgusting look.
But still… if it looked like he was skipping it might have been he was trying to pull his pants back up over his ass.
Perfect comment. One more example of why skipping may be an apt term for what GZ saw.
I came here to say what Baker did, that if you’ve ever seen one of the “pants below the ass” club run, they often doing by grabbing a wad of their jeans at the front and then doing what could easily be described as “skipping” or “galloping,” where one leg stays perpetually in front of the other. Think of the motion that you’d make if you were a kid riding a horsie made from a broomstick.
I accidentally hit thumbs-down on Baker’s post, too. For three weeks I’ve been wondering how people do that so often, and now it happened to me. Sorry.
My impression of when GZ said on the NEN that …”he ran”….was more along the lines of ….”he took off”…”he has left the area” “he’s gone.” When asked on Hannity, he was describing the actual leaving as more of a skipping (rather than “a high tailing it”)….which is what it looks like when boys with their pants below their butt try to run…it’s a step/hop type of movement…which is what a skip is…but faster.
Good point. I always considered that ‘he’s running’ meant that TM had made a sudden and obvious change in his speed plus perhaps a change in direction. It’s more of a general term. But some might insist that running means he is actually running in the manner of a jog or sprint. They would insist that if GZ did not say “he’s skipping away” at the time on the phone then he is trying to hide something from us or deceive us which in this case is obviously ludicrous.
Not sure how to post a link but Dershowitz has called for the prosecutors to be disbarred. You can bet the prosecutors are sweating this verdict because they need something to insulate them from what is heading their way.
http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/dershowitz-zimmerman-trayvon-martin/2013/07/12/id/514847?promo_code=137AF-1&utm_source=137AFTimes_of_Israel&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1
Nah.
POS will just call a beer summit at the WH and all will be kissy-faced away. Move along. Nothing to see here.
First we had Henry Fonda in “Twelve Angry Men.” Now we have Lady Gaga in “Six Confused Women.”
That is so bad it’s good.
ROTF!
anyone else notice how many talking heads pronounce trayvon’s last name as martend
Anyone know which juror appeared to take the MOST notes and which juror appeared to take the LEAST notes?
If O’bama had a son he said he would look like Trayvon. I wonder if he would want his teenage daughters going out with Trayvon knowing what we now know:
Fighter
Looking to buy a gun
MJ user and probable dealer
Purple Lean user
Multiple school suspensions
No_limit_nigga handle
Child porn on phone
Hanging out with the likes of RJ
Racist (“creepy ass cracker”)
Probable aggravated battery of GZ
Maybe some brave reporter should ask the President this question, regardless of what jury decides.
I Voted for Obama and I just have to agree with you.
I am Really upset that Obama inserted himself into this case. I hadn’t been following any of this so I only just learned about this, so Yes the question is warranted.
A couple of more days on the lake and I’ll be much darker than Eric Holder or Benjamin Jealous!
Where’s my reparations check, damnit!
Got to admit I found myself wishing George had gone out and caught some rays before the trial. The darker the skin the greater the liklihood of innocence in the POS world.
Drudge actually ran a pic with a much darker GZ and the effect was startling.
the longer this goes the worse it looks for George. At this point I think the best he can hope for is a hung jury.
If after everything that went on in the trial they havent voted to acquit by now, I’d be surprised if it ends up happening.
Seems like there’s at least one there who is going for guilty.
The final straw for me was at the very end of Guy’s closing where he basically told the jury that an acquittal would paint them as racists in the eyes of the world.
Totally classless.
I wonder if any of these women has ever been in a fight or a physical situation. They may just not be able to relate to what was happening and may buy the state’s argument that there was no real danger involved.
I was attacked in a manner similar to GZ. IMO, it’s wrong that I would have been struck from the jury just because I know how terrifying it is.
When I lived in NYC I was mugged 3 times, each time by – you guessed it – a black guy.
When I was teaching I was attacked 3 times by kids and guess what they all had in common.
Just saying.
.
As I understand it the jury alternates have been dismissed what would happen if a juror falls ill during deliberations? Especially if the deliberations are lengthy, it could happen. If they do get to go home that means they can browse web and watch TV so are no longer able to come back. I imagine there would be a mistrial, right?
I think if one became incapacitated they would go on with 5 by the agreement of the court and both sides prior to the trial. I’m not sure that is the case just what I remember reading somewhere. If more than 1 became incapacitated I would presume it would be considered a hung jury.
You’re correct. If they lose one for whatever reason, they can continue deliberations with 5 with the agreement of the court and both sides. If it drops to four for whatever reason, that’s an automatic mistrial.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the GPS data on Trayvon’s phone precisely located his whereabouts at some point in the entire incident? The defense never had a chance to explore that because the SAO withheld the data and the judge refused to give them the time to examine it.
Clearly reversible error if he’s found guilty, and definitely a job that should be done in preparation for a second trial, if there is one.
Jeralyn at Talk Left has a post about that from February. It seems the GPS data for that day is missing. She writes: “As illustrative example, while the analysis includes GPS locating records for Mr. Martin’s phone for all of the time that he was in the Sanford area, specifically absent is any such data for February 26, 2012, the date of the event. Similarly, there seems to be missing entries regarding phone callsor texts made to or from the phone in the evening hours of February 26,2012. (My emphasis.)” Link: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/2/1/23854/40798/crimenews/-Age-of-the-Tele-Rat-Trayvon-Martin-s-Missing-Cell-Phone-Data
That’s just a coincidence. These things happen, ya know…
Items on phone were deleted after the state received it from Sanford PD. I just don’t trust the BDLR team, they have been sneaky, underhanded and unethical throughout this case.
I’m an experience computer security professional with extensive forensics investigation experience. I’d bet money that the deleted GPS data is recoverable with the right tools, and I would further posit that the fact that the data for that day and that day only is missing is HIGHLY suspicious.
Not just suspicious…suggestive.
Great point!
There seems to be a lot of things that will help Zimmerman in the appeal if he is found guilty or if tried again due to a hung jury. I’m still just really hoping for a not guilty verdict that will allow him to go home and do his best to have a somewhat normal life. Unfortunately, his life can never be the same as it was after what the media, race baiters, State of Florida, and Barack Obama have done to him.
Everyone here keeps saying that, including me, while taking in the trial the past weeks. But I have read many attorney comments (outside of this forum) on the subject and they disagree. Nelson has been careful to rule on many of the obvious issues in such a way as to avoid a successful appeal. An appeal can take many months or years, likely years. And I cannot see Nelson allowing George to remain free on bond while he works through the appellate process. So IMO that particular “out” for George is not really all that great of a prospect, at least right now.
If there’s no verdict within an hour, all hope is lost.
Not true.
(Copied from a news site)
Jurors took nearly 15 hours to find Jodi Arias guilty of first-degree murder in the death of her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander.
Casey Anthony was acquitted of first-degree murder in the death of her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee. The jury deliberated 10 hours and 40 minutes.
Jerry Sandusky was found guilty of 45 of 48 counts of child sex abuse after a jury deliberated for more than 20 hours over two days.
After almost 14 hours, jurors found Drew Peterson guilty in the death of fourth wife, Kathleen Savio.
The jury in the Conrad Murray trial found him guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson after about nine hours of jury deliberations.
In 1995, O.J. Simpson was acquitted of two counts of murder in the deaths of his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman. Jurors deliberated for less than four hours.
Jurors from the second Phil Spector trial deliberated for 30 hours and convicted him of second-degree murder in the death of Lana Clarkson.
After 35 hours of deliberations, stretched out over nine days, jurors acquitted Robert Blake of first-degree murder in his wife’s death.
Scott Peterson was convicted of first-degree and second-degree murder for killing his wife and their unborn child. The jury deliberated for seven days.
After four days of deliberations, the Menendez brothers were convicted of two counts of first-degree murder for killing their parents.
Steven Hayes was convicted of capital murder in the deaths of three members of the Petit family. The jury deliberated four hours.
I think what Fabi is trying to say and that your list demonstrates is that the longer it goes the odds get worse for the defense. I can’t imagine anything but a hung jury at this point but someone is not giving the defendant the benefit of the reasonable doubt.
Robert Blake case appears to be the only exception to my concern; the rest support my fear of a guilty verdict…
Or a hung jury, and then – ugh.
😳
Mea culpa.
I read that data wrong.
In 11 cases cited only 3 were acquitted and 8 were found guilty.
Sadly, you are both right (about this list).
Everyone of those cases had substantially more evidence against the defendants than this one… even those that acquitted.
What evidence is there for 2nd degree murder? Depraved mind? Ill will, hatred? Maybe BDLR and JG have depraved minds, ill will and hatred… they screamed enough.
What is there for manslaughter? nothing…
Where did the prosecution prove beyond a reasonable doubt GZ did not act in self defense? No where.
Jeanine Pirro at Fox News said she had breaking news. I thought she was going to say there is a verdict, but she says the jury is in it’s 10th hour. What an ass.
yeah….what an ass
I actually like Pirro, but when she said “we have breaking news in the Zimmerman trial” I didn’t think it would be we’re now in “10th hour of jury deliberations” I thought it be “we have a verdict”.
I usually like Pirro, too.
I’ve quit liking her so much when she gives knee jerk approval to her sister judge, JDN.
John McNaughton has another wonderful painting. Can’t seem to embed it.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q72/s720x720/1043988_10151773233793653_450951243_n.jpg>
A slight correction to you link:
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q72/s720x720/1043988_10151773233793653_450951243_n.jpg
I thought JDN had already ruled on the possible Richardson violation regarding the phone data. She is actually postponing the ruling until AFTER the trial. Can anybody tell me what the eff is that about? A hell of a lot good that does ANY defendant if the state can keep vital evidence away from the defense until the last minute, and then argue that the trial needs to go ahead on time. JDN to GZ “Bend over and take this judge’s jurisprudence like a man”
Usually a judge rules when the Brady and Richardson violations are brought to their attention and have had a hearing. Then the prosecution is penalized right away to dissuade them from continuing to act in that manner. But in this case where the defense has pointed out numerous violations many times the judge has punted on all of them.
The Richardson hearing on the phone data is a separate issue from the data itself. The Richardson hearing is to determine if the State purposefully withheld potentially exculpatory information from the defense. But the data was obtained, and was ruled for admissibility separately.
Strictly speaking, the admissibility is a separate issue, although in this case they’re somewhat intertwined because knowing about it sooner might have allowed the defense to do enough research to get it admitted.
It’s all quite complex, and when you get right down to it, it’s a judgment call, like judges make every day. It may be right, it may be wrong and irrelevant, or it may be wrong, relevant, and reversed on appeal. But it’s still just a judgment call.
very helpful…thx..i wasn’t looking at as two separate issues, but it is
In most trials all those issues are cleared up or decided before the trial so defense knows what evidence/witnesses will be available so they can plan their defense. They shouldn’t have been deciding the text messages on the 2nd to last day of the defense’s case or still holding depositions of potential witnesses.
One of my favorite trial moments was when George Zimmerman’s mother looked Bernard de la Rionda straight in the eye, unimpressed, and said with dignity, “I know who you are, Mr. de la Rionda.” pronouncing his name with a perfect Spanish accent.
Translated: ‘I know what you are, Mr. DLR – you don’t fool me one bit you nasty little excuse for a man.’
That was a great moment.
Television reports of growing crowds outside the court house. Supporters for both sides. Tempers flaring; free speech being spoken…
Free Speech? Can’t have that, someone call up the Dept of Homeland Security!
[…] life if the jury votes to acquit and there are riots. Other than that — and you might want to check Zimmerman Jury Watch at Legal Insurrection — this might be a good time to explain why you think this is […]
If the jury has come to an impasse and most are in agreement with one holdout, wouldn’t they be notifying the court?
Since they have not I think they’re knocking ideas around looking at different aspects of things the various jurors bring up.
We’ll I think they’d give her a note by way of a Bailiff. Not sure what judge would do with that info. They really haven’t been deliberating that long.
Styro, imagine if you were a juror, and one or more of the others was a Trayvon supporter, as devoted to him as you are to George. How do you think you would feel after debating/arguing/explaining and having to listen to them doing the same – for 10 hours! I would think that you would need/want to get back to the hotel and find whatever adult beverage can, lots of them! But I may be wrong…
If the jury leaves in the next 30 minutes or so, I suspect we may have a hung jury. Which, from my perspective, might just be a damn good thing!
Well, we haven’t even seen one Allen charge yet, have we?
Allen charge? Something to do with deliberations?
The official Allen charge used in Florida includes the following clarifications:
“There are two things a jury can lawfully do: agree on a verdict or disagree on what the facts of the case may truly be. There is nothing to disagree about on the law […] If you have any disagreements about the law, I should clear them up for you now. That should be my problem, not yours.”
The Florida Bar Association notes that a judge must read the designated Allen charge verbatim, or – if a modified version is used – it has to specify that the jurors are not obligated to reach a consensus, and they should by no means give up on their “conscientious concerns” in order to do so.
dang! they’re probably still getting to know one another.
Why doesn’t NSA(Obama)turn over the recordings of the TM/RJ phone calls? Does Obama not want us to know what his “son” was talking about those last 40 minutes of his life?
According to Snowden Obama has the information.
Would you really trust anything an Obama regime agency gave to this case to be true, correct and complete?
Do you really think NSA have a taped recording of every cell phone in America….really? I think they have info on the to and from, date and time,length of call. They would literally have to get a wiretape to have the call recorded…at the time there was no reason to do so.
Just a heads-up – they took the word ‘gullible’ out of the dictionary…
Did they not ask to quit at 6 yesterday at about 5:30? Do you think they will go past 6 tonight or are they a bunch of clock punchers?
I would suspect that they have lost all sense of days of the week… but I could be mistaken and maybe they do know it is Saturday.
As a woman, I think that the early recess ( relatively speaking ) was a mini-celebration of the end of the testimony, sort of like a school’s out class party. Bet they had a cocktail.
‘It doesn’t matter what this sign say, you’ll call it RACISM anyway!’
Winner, winner; chicken dinner
Not going to be good for the prosecution if a hung jury…the unwashed masses are going to demand a new trial…since George is walking free. The prosecution most definitely does not want a new trial since the defense will have time to do a little digging on the phone texts and perhaps TM’s true character will be exposed. Plus the defense can correct all of their mistakes and fine tune they case….can’t say the same for the prosecution since they never had anything but sympathy. Kind of hard to have any sympathy for a little thug.
Oh snap!!!! Getting a little heated at the courthouse. They should really schedule these racial hatred trials in the spring or fall when the weather is cooler. 😉
https://twitter.com/JeffWeinerOS/status/356164734837460993/photo/1
Yikes.
Real pic?
Not many riots happen in winter up north.
They tend to be seasonal events. This crowd is not really into snowball fights.
Lawyers headed to courthouse now.
Jury question…NOT verdict.
Courtroom is filling up, but no Tweet from the 18th PIO.
Ah, there’s the tweet. A jury question.
The jury might be in. Something is happening.
Something may be about to happen!
If the jury tells the judge it can’t make a unanimous decision, the judge will read an Allen Charge – a strongly worded letter encouraging deadlocked jurors to continue deliberations until they reach a verdict.
An Allen Charge can only be read once during deliberations.
The jury decides how long it will continue deliberations, and if it still can’t reach a verdict, the judge declares a mistrial.
The state will then be able to try the case with a new jury.
Question: Tell us what the meaning of “is” is.
I wonder if the jurors are staying in a nice hotel with a pool, fitness center, good restaurant etc. If they were staying in a dump maybe they’d come to a decision quicker if they didn’t have nice amenities.
“Clarification on the instructions regarding manslaughter” does not sound ideal for George.
Roh, roh. They’re asking for clarification on the jury instructions for manslaughter. Not good. Not good at all.
They are IGNORING the self defense instruction. I am pissed.
Exactly.
If the state has not actively DISPROVEN self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, then neither M2 or manslaughter applies.
This jury is ignoring the law and the instructions to “compromise” it seems.
If the jurors discount Zimmerman’s broken, bloody nose as not compelling enough for self-defense, what can one say? Think of all the photos of domestic violence victims with their swollen bloody faces that we’ve seen over the years and how NO ONE would have penalized these women for fighting back. This is appalling.
Precisely.
Short of having an actual video, what other evidence of self-defense could any jury possibly ask for? A man is screaming for help for 45 seconds on tape. A neutral eyewitness IDs those screams as coming from a guy on the bottom of an MMA-ground-and-pound he sees 18 feet away. His injuries are totally consistent with that testimony. The other man has no defensive injuries and DOES have abraisions on his knuckles from punching. One of the country’s preeminent forensic pathologists testifies that the forenics and ballistics are “simple” and consistent with all the above. A use-of-force expert (whose testimony the state never rebuts) testifies the same and that GZ “had no other options”. A self-defense law expert (again un-rebutted) testifies that SD doesn’t even require injuries, merely a reasonable fear of imminent death or grave bodily harm.
WTF do the women on this jury want????
These ladies are idiots!
Total morons.
As I feared, they are “thinking” with their hearts rather than their heads just like John Guy led them to. Despite the explicit jury instructions to leave all that at the door. 90% chance they’re going with NG on murder2 and GUILTY on manslaughter.
Fox says Media asked to go to the courtroom
Jury asked for clarification on instructions regarding manslaughter.
HORRORS! That’s 30 years. Ladies, THINK! This was self-defense, plain and simple.
I hope there is a mistrial declared or appeals or filings of some sort because of the prosecutors misdeeds.
If not, I will always hold O’Mara responsible for not taking out the brass knuckles and telling the bald-faced against the Trayon the thug, the Martins, Crump, Corey, BLDR, Mantei, Guy, Obama, Holder, Sharpton, Jackson and the NBPP.
Its on!!!! Go to your TV.
Clarification on manslaughter instruction.
(MSNBC immediately says this is good for the prosecutor. Ugh.)
I won’t watch MSNBC until there is a verdict and the verdict is not guilty. I will be tuning in just to watch their heads explode.
Any doubts now that this jury ignoring the law?
None. As I posted a few hours ago when the deliberations were dragging on:
This jury is ignoring the law, the evidence, and the instructions (to arrive at a “compromise” verdict despite self-defense precluding that). Shameful and cowardly.
If there asking about manslaughter it’s obvious they’re not using their brains.
Oh, not good… unless they are trying to make sure that it is NOT possible to go with manslaughter…
Nelson had better let them know that self defense = Not Manslaughter.
I think that is probably the issue that one of the jurors has. Everyone is getting pretty down about the question, but all it takes is one other juror to say this trial is BS and I’m not convicting Zimmerman of anything.
I have a really hard time thinking all six jurors are going to find him guilty of anything.
I believe MOM missed an opportunity to simplify and hammer home a point the prosecutions was trying to say GZ lied about—the screams. I believe it was BDLR that said in closing that as soon as the shot was fired, the screams stopped so it must have been TM, “common sense”. MOM shouold have re-emphasized Good saw TM on top at the time of the screams. And he (Good) thought it was coming from the man on bottom.
Sh!T
TV lawyer says jury is likely deciding between 2nd degree and MS.
WTF!
As a tweet above says, nobody really knows what this means. It could be that there are 5 people trying to convince 1 holdout that manslaughter is not applicable. Or not. Nobody knows but the people in that room, and for every opinion that turns out to be right, at least one more will turn out to be wrong.
I’m going to quote myself, because I am just that awesome:
Nobody knows but the people in that room, and for every opinion that turns out to be right, at least one more will turn out to be wrong.
You’re right.
True.
Good grief!!! Lisa Bloom just said it’s bad for the defense. Manslaughter a MAJOR WIN for the state!
Hysterical! Getting louder! Shrill!
30 minute recess. Verdict tonight sayeth Fabieth.
Self defense excuses both MS and 2nd degree.
Lawyer theorizing jury is just going down the list.
Didn’t the judge instruct them to start with the most serious charge and work their way down?
They just may not have considered option # 3 yet, NG. May be trying to rule OUT manslaughter.
Whistling past graveyard here, I hope NOT……
If GZ found guilty of manslaughter only thing I’m hanging my hat on is appeals court doesn’t have a problem overturning this idiot judge’s rulings.
No, they don’t have a problem overturning her decisions, they have already overturned one on the grounds it should have been self defense. I think this one would get overturned on the JOA.
IF they opt to convict on manslaughter, this is reversible on appeal all day long. the defense spoke on the record about the fact that had they known that manslaughter was an option, they would have done their case differently.
say it with me: prosecutorial and judicial misconduct.
I like the sound of that. Just rolls off the tongue.
Still reversible on many grounds, but not that one… Defense knew all along that manslaughter would be a distinct possibility ( probability), but their defense of self-defense is a defense against both. Problem is, jury has to understand this. Judge’s explanation will be crucial here.
But will Mark O’Mara and Don West risk their place in the law, court and politics community to press hard for further recourse for George Zimmerman?
Their refusal to expose the thuggery of Crump and Corey, to reveal the real Trayvon and Rachel Jeantel lead me to believe they aren’t willing to risk their own necks for a defendant.
Obama and the Leftist CPUSA can and will ruin or do worse to anyone that crosses them.
Just what I’ve feared, a “compromise” manslaughter verdict. I’m just sick. Please let the talking heads be wrong.
My question for the jury:
“Do you have any brains or spine at all?”
Recess for 30 minutes? WTF???
Recess due to imminent verdict after recess, i.e., tonight.
And I just threw-up a little in my mouth. (Good excuse to gargle with Glenmorangie, though!)
Where’d you read/hear that?
Coniecto ergo sum.
LaSanta? I’m there!
Can you see through my computer screen? lol My very, very favorite of the Glenmorangie range.
Lasanta as we speak…
Judges often do NOT indulge a jury question during deliberations.
I see commonly that a judge sends back, “You have sufficient instructions” or something to that effect. Nelson may be considering the question.
She may be calling Corey, Bondi, Holder or the WH.
Nelson will answer the question if she feels it’s in the bast interest of the state.
I thought I saw that weasel BDLR smirking. I want 40 seconds with him!
Ground and pound?
This is not a positive development if you believe Geo Zimmerman is innocent.. It does suggest that they may have decided the 2nd degree was too high a bar and they are considering the lesser…
Repeat question.
Didn’t the judge instruct the jury to begin their deliberations with the most serious charge and work their way down the list to acquittal?
Isn’t it possible they’ve already discarded 2nd Degree and are now on MS and could discard that and then acquit?
Yes, and from your lips/keyboard to………
Anything is possible.
I am much more sick at the fact the MSM will herald a manslaughter conviction as a triumph of justice, many of who will be practicing lawyers.
I just want to extend a thanks, again, to Amy in FL, for her instructions on how to follow someone and get notifications on my Android Twitter app. It allowed me to set a notification for the 18th Cir. PIO and go on about my Saturday, without having to sift through all the opinionated BS and outright fluff that everyone else on the twitter feed above puts out just to fill time.
🙂
This could be for the benefit of one juror who just can’t seem to let George Zimmerman off with nothing. I think they have ruled out 2nd degree murder completely.
That’s what I am thinking.
Freakin’ trial! Stressing me out. Still could go either way.
Please let us hope that these hacks on HLN have zero clue!
Again there are NO winners here! A life is lost & many others’ lives have been done irrepairable damage.
This case regardless of outcome is sad.
i’ll repeat what i said last night, if these M’Fers were 1/50th as concerned about black on black crime, i might give their outrage a thimble full of credibility
How dare you upset the narrative? Have you no shame?
you are being sarcastic ? I hope ?
Maybe the recess is for the benefit of the one juror holding out. Perhaps the judge’s explanation will allow that juror to vote not guilty with the other five.
A verdict on a hot Saturday night? Oh, my…
Oh I may have forgot to mention that I found it completely insulting & demeaning for Mr. Guy yesterday called GZ the “sta-puf” man. Florida? This is your prosecuted for whose salary you pay taxes. DISGRACEFUL!
You’re right. That was wrong under any circumstance. Guy received many kudos from the media for his master usage of that reference to color his closing. He was very wrong to label George that way.
I have discussed George’s weight gain here only because I believe that it is possible that the jurors might see him as huge man as compared to the autopsy photo of Treyvon. But I did not discuss it to be offensive to George in any way. In most Latin American cultures being a little heavy is a good thing and a sign of wealth and prosperity! But in America it is a negative. Go figure…
John Guy is despicable. He and the other two have clearly committed prosecutorial misconduct, knowing they can get away with it in a court system designed to crush the common man.
Guy’s rebuttal was crap, too — cheesy, artificial, insincere. Someone should’ve slapped him.
Can we please have clarification on the charge of manslaughter.
That was the question Nelson read aloud.
[…] must be logged in to post a comment. Announcement Zimmerman Trial: Verdict Watch LIVE updates on status of jury deliberations. We will have a new post when a verdict is reached. […]
The question they need to ask is “can we get clarification on how we are supposed to feel sorry for the victims family”
Just to be clear regarding my opinion. I’m not the least bit concerned about a guilty verdict. If the judge sends Zimmerman to jail (and given her history I expect that she would), he will be placed in solitary confinement for his own safety.
An appeal will be successful and one of two things will happen; a JOA or a new trial.
The worst thing possible would be a hung jury. That would cause a mistrial and stimulate demands for a new trial, costing Zimmerman millions more that he doesn’t have.
Happened to someone I know. Jury convicted him of murder and he got a Judgement of Acquittal later. It took 3 years though.
“Just to be clear regarding my opinion. I’m not the least bit concerned about a guilty verdict. If the judge sends Zimmerman to jail (and given her history I expect that she would), he will be placed in solitary confinement for his own safety.
An appeal will be successful and one of two things will happen; a JOA or a new trial.”
I bet GZ feels quite differently about it. I’m sure it would be lovely for him to be jailed in solitary for months and months awaiting an uncertain appeal, all for a crime he did not commit. A travesty of justice that renders out-of-home self-defense virtually meaningless in all but the clearest-cut cases (a thug pummelling a small woman all caught on video). There is no way to spin that a manslughter conviction is anything less than a terrible, unjust verdict.
EyesWideOpen | July 13, 2013 at 6:38 pm
“Just to be clear regarding my opinion. I’m not the least bit concerned about a guilty verdict. If the judge sends Zimmerman to jail (and given her history I expect that she would), he will be placed in solitary confinement for his own safety.
An appeal will be successful and one of two things will happen; a JOA or a new trial.”
Xactly, If they convict you will no longer be able to defend yourself using a weapon in Florduh if someone beats the snot out of you without facing manslaughter charges.
me thinks i am going to need to get utterly sh*tfaced tonight so that i can relax enough to sleep
Just opened the first beer
OMG. What a mess.
But Greg whatshisface says jury seems to be going in order according to the 27 page instructions.
Discarded 2nd degree, now on MS, could discard that and then get to SD.
It isn’t over til the fat judge sings!
Here’s praying she never does. Looking at her and hearing her rulings was bad enough, but singing????? {{{shudder}}}
Fox ( naturally) has the most succinct reality here…. that probably the jurors are reading the instructions all the way down and have first, discarded M2, then are now considering manslaughter, …..thinking ‘ yes ‘ and then going down, come to the fact that if he is guilty in their minds of manslaughter, self defense is a complete defense and he is not guilty. They could be stuck on ‘ guilty of manslaughter ‘ before they get to ‘ Self defense ‘. Just hope they keep on reading.
I have such a terrible feeling in my stomach right now and I also want to shoot out almost all of the talking heads on my TV right now…………….and a few others while I am at it
It never ceases to amaze me that people watch those shows. What a complete waste of time and brain cells.
Normally I know what to avoid which is almost all of them but even the local Orlando stations are overflowing with so called experts……………I really just need them to give me the weather/some news and morning traffic..do not need all the extras
Don’t let your feelings direct your actions – just ignore the leftist liars.
I can’t listen to them.
Not sure I can watch when Judge answers them, assuming she does.
Judge Alex Ferrer says if jury is following instructions judge gave them it’s a pretty clear they’ve rejected 2nd degree and have now moved on to MS.
But they could reject that and go to NG.
For that to happen the jury has to understand SD.
OTOH, O’Mara told them to start with SD.
You’re right BUT the might figure the judge is impartial(Ha) so they’re following her instructions.
Whose instructions do you think the jury would follow? MOM’s? Or the Judge’s?
Me? I think they’d follow the judge’s instructions.
I agree they would listen to the judge. The judge has played this smiley, friendly and concerned person with them throughout all this and they have seen none of her underhanded shenanigans when they were removed from the court room.
Me thinks they are just working there way down the list..
MSM will blame any resultant violence on whitey!
I’m still trying to figure out what any of “my people” had to do with this. I threw in a little Holder there, you see, eh, eh?
Appeals usually take a very very long time and are expensive. It shouldn’t come to that, if these women follow the law.
Compared to a trial, appeals are fairly cheap.
They take a while because it takes a long time to get a ruling.
SOMETIMES. You can ask for an expedited appeal for cause.
Chill everyone. They’re in the lingerie department. They’re getting there.
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
LOL
People are saying that they started with top count and moved to manslaughter then SD. If I was on jury I would have started on SD 1st, then if I ruled that out you can decide on 2nd degree or manslaughter. It doesn’t make sense to do it the other way b/c if you think its self-defense no need to decide on anything else.
Juries show deference to their judges.
Well with this judge they must have seen her clown shoes poking out under her bench.
It may just be that there is one juror who thinks she can make the case for manslaughter. Clarification may be to convince her that she does NOT have the law backing her up.
That’s not what the judge instructed them to do.
responding to styro
You and I would have never made it past jury selection.
Will Nelson read the clarification in open court or pull the jury into the CR to read the clarification?
If they ignored O’Mara and followed the judge’s instructions as to the order of their deliberations then they may not have the same opinion of those two as the rest of us.
On the other hand, the clarification could just be a way for the recalcitrant juror to save face and back out of trying to convict Zimmerman. You see this with stupid people a lot. They need a step stool to climb down with once they have made an ass of themselves. Asking for clarification gives them a way to do that.
BTW, listening to the court proceedings it was really hard to tell just what manslaughter is under FL law. Certainly it doesn’t apply here at all if you believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense but manslaughter is a complicated concept so it really muddies the waters.
I think this is exactly the case IMO.
“You see this with stupid people a lot. They need a step stool to climb down with once they have made an ass of themselves. Asking for clarification gives them a way to do that.”
Nicely put. Any way that helps save face.
The one area that I thought that MOM could have given more emphasis to is Zimmerman’s state of mind. Doesn’t the tone of those unanswered screams for help convey his desperation?
To believe that Trayvon was screaming for help for that period of time doesn’t make sense. I contend that a person who has a gun pointed at him does not scream to others for for help but pleads directly with the gunman for his life with words like, “Please don’t shoot.”
The testimony of John Good and forensic evidence indicate that Trayvon was on top at this time pummeling Zimmerman – rendering the assertion that he was the one screaming ludicrous.
The only evidence that Zimmerman was on top comes from a witness who was likely drawing an incorrect conclusion based on a misunderstanding of comparative sizes and the testimony of someone hearing the words “Get off” on the phone. Discounting that the latter may have been only a prurient suggestion, I don’t remember if the quote was directly attributed to Trayvon and couldn’t have been Zimmerman’s words.
I believe that is correct.
I thought the attempt of RJ to say that TM had a “baby voice” was severely laughable!
Heard his alleged Dad?
LOL