I trust that everyone had a safe and satisfying celebration of the birthday of the greatest nation on earth yesterday, and that no fireworks were left unexpended (if any were left unexpended, deduct 10% from “man-card”–and for Pete’s sake, don’t tell anybody).
Today we will again be covering the Zimmerman Trial live, all day, with streaming video. Continuing commentary will be posted in the Twitter feed of selected contributors below the first video feed, and breaking news will be added at the bottom of this post.
During the lunch recess, or immediately thereafter, we will post a mid-day update. We’ll then follow up with the usual detailed end-of-day wrap up, including video and embedded Tweets, at the usual time in the evening.
ALERT! Court started at 8:40AM, early than expected. Trayvon Martin’s mother, Sabryna Fulton, is currently on the stand. It is anticipated that the State will finish with the last of its witnesses today and rest its case. At that point I expect the defense will submit a motion for a directed verdict, Judge Nelson will deny the motion, and the defense will begin to present its case.
Yesterday I posted up a general review of the trial to date, with some prognostication of how things may role out in the coming days. To take a look at that, click here:
Zimmerman Trial Review– How We Got Here, And Where We’re Going
For all of our prior coverage on day-to-day events in court, as covered here at Legal Insurrection, click here:
ARCHIVE: Zimmerman Trial LIVE coverage all day, every day
For all of our prior coverage on issues specific to the Law of Self Defense as covered at my own blog, click here:
Law of Self Defense Blog: Zimmerman Trial
(NOTE: If you do wander over to the LOSD blog, be sure to come back to Legal Insurrection to comment, as nearly all my time is spent here for the duration of the trial.)
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Friday, July 5 Commentary
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Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense,” now available in its just released 2nd Edition, which shows you how to successfully fight the 20-to-life legal battle everyone faces after defending themselves. July 5, 2013 is the LAST DAY to take advantage of the 30% pre-order discount, only $35, plus free shipping. To do so simply visit the Law of Self Defense blog.
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Comments
Didn’t the other ME state she got the clothing in a plastic bag? Wonder how that happened?
The judge is going to have to strike this numnutz’s testimony entirely if she doesn’t get control over this witness and the courtroom RIGHT NOW.
Expert testimony on memory now from ME.
Please don’t look at my notes.
Tell me this is not the most bizarre thing you have ever seen and tell me this guy is fit to hold his position.
Hey at least he doesn’t wash his feet in the autopsy sink like his colleague Rao.
Now perhaps he washes some other part of his anatomy in the autopsy sink but if so it’s TMI LOL
Brady violation here, the State had an obligation to disclose Bao’s “trial testimony preparation notes” PRIOR to him getting on the stand.
Now Bao’s claiming the State didn’t know about this?
Bao is a disaster. For the State. An unmitigated disaster.
Marco100, I think it is very likely that the state knew nothing of this. I think this is a landmine they just stepped on. I think they’re sitting at their table going, “Oh shit oh shit oh shit” right now.
They might not have known about the notes themselves but they obviously knew Bao was a catastrophe in the making which is why they felt compelled to call Rao, hoping evidently they wouldn’t have to call Bao. But they ended up with both, yuchh.
Isn’t there a famous clown college in Florida?
It sounds like that’s where the state’s prosecutors, crime scene technicians, and medical examiners must get their training.
If I were a Florida taxpayer, I’d be furious at this stunning display of incompetence by all these government employees.
I would suspect that MEs in general are not the cream of the medical school crop. You wouldn’t think most people go to medical school with the ultimate ambition of working on cadavers.
Rachel just tweeted Dr. Bao, you are retarded, sirrrr!!
That’s a grave insult to the mentally handicapped. Bao has full mental faculties, he’s just chosen not to make use of them.
LOL, maybe she can go to China and get an ME position.
BTW, I understand there are language and cultural differences. I also understand that this guy is a whack job.
Bao, is very possessive of his notes. “This my note! You can’t have my note!”
Saturday Night Live could have a field day if they still did comedy instead of politics.
Of course he remembers!
This was a high profile case he was involved in.
He knew at the time that he was going to be called to the stand (that was one year and four moths ago, not 2 years like he said).
There must be some MAJOR screw up he made and he wants to cover it, hence, “I don’t remember anything, zero, nada.”
@Exiliado: No offense, but I think you’re mistaken. This autopsy was done the day after the shooting, when it was still just a run of the mill homicide. Remember that this didn’t really become a mess until the investigation was well under way, and then even bigger mess when they declined to press charges. When he actually did his work, it was just another body.
NO offense taken.
My point is that at the time his case blew up, he had a recent recollection or memory. At that time, he had to have known right away that he was going to be called to testify.
Now, when they did the autopsy it was “just another body,” and evidently somebody in his team screwed up.
It sounds very convenient then to start having a loss of memory.
There can’t be that many shooting homicides in Sanford though on a per annum basis. Or homicides of any kind.
Most autopsies are probably “natural causes.”
If he does say 50 – 100/year why wouldn’t he remember ANYTHING about this one, esp. having spent hundreds of hours refreshing his recollection?
He didn’t say he remember little or vaguely, he claimed to remember “zero” about it at all.
Which is an obvious lie unless Dr. Bao has serious brain damage.
Seminole County had 17 homicides in 2012.
“Of course he remembers” = perjury since he testified he remembered zero of the autopsy.
Maybe Bao is scared about turning over his notes because there is something in there that would indicate he remembered the autopsy (hence just committed perjury)and/or that TM could have moved after being shot.
Maybe the New Black Panthers paid hm a visit or dropped him a card. Maybe he’s been threatened and is scared sh!tless.
Correction, may have been the DNA expert who said they were in plastic, still odd though.
“Is there something funny there?”
Yes Dr. Bao why did you draw “naked lady” doodles all over your trial preparation notes LOL?
ME sounded competent BDLR’s questioning but now he sounds like a dolt. Did he just say “did you find something funny in my notes”
Bao is exhibiting “guilty conscience.” He never planned on divulging his notes. He’s assuming he’s very much in hot water right now and he might be.
“No you cannot have a copy–it’s my notes!”
Maybe there’s a notation there where Bao plans out his perjury scheme?
We’ve discussed how hard being a witness can be.
He is a professional, in a position way over his linguistic ability.
Is he defensive? OH, YEAH.
Is he guilty of anything wrong…??? Certainly nothing illegal. He gets to have his notes, as does ANY witness.
But he’s screwed the quality of anything he might have done for the State.
Another net loss.
Well I think he clearly committed perjury when he testified to having zero memory of the autopsy esp. having spent “hundreds of hours” prior to the trial “refreshing” his memory.
Of course perjury is not very provable, but I do think he remembers more than zero about the autopsy and lied about it on the witness stand.
Here is the problem with notes. – if someone testifies by merely reading their notes, it is, I believe, hearsay. It is an out of court statement being introduced to prove the matter asserted. Or, something like that. Theoretically, you should be able to object to someone testifying based on their notes on this basis. Then, he could use the notes to refresh his mind and put them away when testifying, stopping and refreshing as needed. In other words, witnesses aren’t supposed to testify from their notes, but rather from their memories, but can use notes to refresh those memories.
Thing though is is that if someone is refreshing their memory from their notes, the opposing party should be able to see those notes in order to determine how much of the testimony is directly from memory and how much from the document being used to refresh memory. And also potentially to identify conflicts between the testimony and the document. I doubt that you would find such with an ME on a homicide case, but I have found cops shading their testimony from looking at their notes.
The problem though is that this is a cumbersome process – testifying, then refreshing, then testifying some more. And in cases like this, with an ME testifying from over a year ago, it would take far too long. So, people, and esp. professional witnesses like police, MEs, etc. just testify from their notes, but turn over copies of those notes to the opposing parties upon request.
Let me add though that the above may be 20+ years out of date and is theory that is/was based on the Federal Rules of Evidence, and not Florida rules, etc. I may be wrong as to the present state of the hearsay rules. I don’t litigate that much any more, and when I am involved in such, rarely sit first chair.
He sounded competent during BDLR’s questioning because those questions were mostly factual about what he found, not what he did. He probably had a pretty good idea of what questions would be asked, as he’s done this expert testimony thing before. As soon as cross started, he had to go off script, and things went all to hell.
Hey Matt, were you aware that a civilian grand jury indicted Angela Corey!!!
/s, j/k, lol
He sounded competent during BDLR’s questioning because he got to rehearse his questions and answers with BDLR.
Let’s see. When the police and ME screwed up some of the evidence in the OJ case, it gave room for a not guilty verdict.
In this case, nearly every state witness has been a disaster.
Will Zimmerman get the same reasonable doubt treatment?
If Dr Bao and Dr Roa are typical examples of MEdical Examiners in Florida, Florida is definitely the place to commit a murder. I’ve never seen anything like this.
He remembers NOTHING from the Autopsy? Why is answering any questions? Enter his notes and the autopsy records into evidence and get someone COMPETENT to answer questions.
Boy, my opinion of Florida legal matters is sinking fast. First you have an incompetent and unethical ME who is called to testify regarding photographs she viewed that have no bearing on her assigned duties and for which she is not qualified to testify.
Then you have an ME who clearly doesn’t understand court procedures despite claiming to have testified in multiple trials. (These are my notes. You can’t have them.)
The judge is clearly prejudiced against the defense and has committed multiple reversible errors.
The state of the legal system in Florida is shabby at best.
I wonder how many people previously convicted via Bao’s testimony are now going to have their case reviewed.
You don’t understand. The State of Florida is NOT running this trial, however much they would like you to believe otherwise.
Bao: I know nothing, remember nothing.
Valerie Jarret: Get this guy’s contact information, we have positions to fill.
Newsflash !
Dr. Bao is really Sgt. Schultz.
Prediction of Jury Verdict:
State Prosecutors and Witnesses are convicted.
Sargeant Schultz from “Hogan’s Heroes.”
http://youtu.be/UmzsWxPLIOo
Judge is giving instructions while everyone is leaving.
The ME said “No, you cannot” when Defense asked to make a copy of his notes.
This guy is hiding something, something BIG. He’s scared to death about those notes.
At least now we know why the State felt forced to call Rao instead of Bao, they probably figured Bao would be an even bigger disaster than Rao, but had no choice.
The worst of both worlds here. For the State that is. I don’t which is worse, Rao or Bao, it’s a toss-up.
Next witness is Chairman Mao.
It’s lunchtime, the jury wants to see some General Tsao.
I bet that the state wants to be shipping Bao back to China.
Didn’t the ME say that anyone who used plastic to bag up clothing would be fired? But don’t we know at least one of the items (TM Sweatshirt) was wet, plastic bagged and smelled or am I not remembering that correctly?
The DNA expert testified as to receiving the shirt in a plastic bag. The chain of custody was from the forensics examiner. At some point it was placed in plastic biohazard bag – at ME’s exam room, or later in evidence?
Who typed up these notes, BDLR or Corey-Nifong
I assumed Rao was promoted for political reason, but now I see she could have just been the best of a bad lot.
Unbelievable…
I think he also may know his guys screwed up with how they packaged the evidence and fears for his job.
Forensics in FL is several hundred light years away from CSI and Dr. Henry Lee.
I would be sweating bullets as the prosecutors. Sure the jury could still convict since juries are known to do crazy things.
But EVERY SINGLE attorney watching this knows what a cluster-fudge this is.
Next Witness for the State: General Tsao.
“General Tsao, how many chickens are you responsible for the death of?”
“But I cooked them in yummy orange sauce!”
I’m monitoring the hysterical twitter feed. Is the ME claiming a copyright on his notes? Has he never testified before? Did the state do anything to prepare him to testify? If I were a Fla taxpayer, I’d demand a refund!
Prosecution tried to get Bao to vouch for the time lapse between when police saw Trayvon’s body and time body arrived at morgue. Bao will read times on the livery driver’s report, but refuses to confirm accuracy of events that occured while he was home in bed. Why is prosection pressing on this? The longer TM body left to elements, the more likely Zim DNA is washed away by rain.
Also, prosecution asking about when/whether/why Trayvon’s hands were not bagged. Bao can’t testify about the on-scene techs’ behavior! Plus, prosecutor (incorrectly) suggests plastic bags should have wrapped hands (presumably to preserve Zimmerman DNA evidence). Bao explains that paper bags are specified for that purpose.
But this whole line of questioning works to defense’s benefit: State’s failure to preserve trace evidence undercuts argument that lack of DNA supports GZ as aggressor.
Note to self:
Follow up on Dr. Bao’s employment status after the trial. Something fishy here.
He was really enthusiastic about helping the state with that emotional “suffering in a lot of pain” act, but later became very hostile.
Seems like he’s angry the prosecution did not keep their end of a deal.
Very hostile also an cross, seems to be hiding major screw-up. Very un-convincing loss of memory.
He was clearly coached to go out of his way to testify about how much pain and suffering TM suffered due to the gunshot. Whether by himself or BDLR is now in question though LOL.
That part of it sounds like part of a deliberate plan by the State to inject as much emotionalism and inflame the jury as much as possible. Part of a narrative.
Follow up on Dr. Bao’s testimony:
1 – Does not appear in court at 1 pm (after lunch)
2 – Note is found, claiming his abduction by little green men in flying saucer.
3 – Jury moves to convict Prosecutors.
Is Papa Oom Mow Mow on prosecution witness list?
Ummm…..that should be Papa Oom Mao Mao……
Viewing Dr. Bao’s testimony just became mandatory for all federal employees, titled “Tutorial: How to testify while under oath”
is Boa the judge – no you can not have my notes
Interesting to me is that this seems to be the first time Bao has been asked for his notes.
This has some sad implications for the quality of the defense bar where he practices.
I think these are the secret notes that Bao never tells the State or the defense about. The notes he uses when he’s planning on perjuring himself. Since he can’t actually testify from memory. Or something.
In discovery, in all of his other cases, Bao doesn’t turn anything over because there are no notes. Or so he says.
These aren’t actual notes that were made contemporaneously (I don’t think) when the autopsy was being performed. These are notes that Bao made after the fact of the autopsy, perhaps long after the fact, to prepare himself for the trial.
What’s crazy is that he should have used the notes to memorize his perjured testimony but then left them at home. Why he would be stupid enough to actually bring them onto the witness stand is attributable to, stupidity, or dishonesty, or something?
Your insistence that he committed perjury is silly. He didn’t.
Was his testimony inconsistent? Wull, yah.
And those notes could have been written last night. That is why the rule exists that the attorneys at trial get to review them, if they have the snap to ask for them.
He testified that he could remember “zero” or “nothing” from conducting the autopsy itself.
That’s most likely a lie, in which case it would be perjury, although obviously probably not provable UNLESS his notes show otherwise.
Without having seen those notes, how can you state categorically that he did not commit perjury? Seems to me that would be a question for another jury.
First, look up the definition of perjury.
Next, who is prosecuting him?
Finally, he’s innocent of perjury as we write. Right…???
egads.I have never heard of a person who testifies regularly in court who doesn’t know that his notes are fair game to opposing counsel. The question “may I see the notes you are reading?”, is something asked thousands of a times a day in courtrooms across America.
This is a mistrial now.
With Nelson on the bench?
This kangaroo court proceeding is a black-eye for our criminal-justice system.
I’m curious about this autopsy 3 weeks ago. How can you prove a negative (can’t move after shot)in this case? He participated in an autopsy where someone was shot and they didn’t move? Seems he should be pressed on this logical impossibility.
It was pure opinion. It will be easily refuted by the defense experts.
I also wonder about the “pain” testimony. A lot of wounds produce so much shock, you are not aware of pain immediately.
Although the chest area is wonderfully enervated.
Should the notes from that autopsy be entered into evidence?
I don’t know what good effect either side would obtain from that.
They probably should have been…and may have been…produced in discovery, but it would depend on how O’Mara conducted his discovery.
And nobody remembers anything Sybrina said earlier. Defense wins.
How does the guilty Asian witness dog bark in the Zimmerman trial?
Bao Rao!
This continued slow-rolling of discovery by state (if they knew about notes) is simply unacceptable.
How can Nelson face herself ?
I know of no discovery rule that compels production of witness notes that could have been created last night (yeh, I know that is not likely.)
But I do not do criminal law anywhere, much less in Florida.
Let’s assume the defense was competent enough to ask for “all ME notes” pre-trial. “All notes” means “all notes.” It was the State’s obligation to provide them, and that obligation would have been continuing, so any newly-created notes should have been turned over when created. If Bao concealed from the State that’s the State’s problem not the defense’s. Bao’s an experienced ME and should have known better, and the State clearly had an obligation to ensure this wouldn’t happen.
BLDR may now be in position as an officer of the court to alert the court to the fact that he did request all of Bao’s pretrial notes and knew nothing about these. It’s now in the ethical realm and BDLR’s law license may be in Nifong territory if he doesn’t clarify all of this after the lunch break.
I don’t know about FL but in many states the prosecutor has a continuing obligation to turn this kind of thing over to the defense even beyond federal Brady requirements.
A wonderful set of assumptions.
Any rules or case-law to help take any of that out of the realm of pure speculation?
I do not understand why Dr. Bao was possessive of his notes, unless they were not as careful and complete as he, a perfectionist, would have wished.
But, I DO understand why, from a liability standpoint, he would not want to testify to or be responsible for saying anything that was NOT written in his notes.
I don’t think they knew. I think they stepped in a land mine.
I also think they don’t have much to do with the autopsy itself. I think they concern memory and how it works, because he couldn’t remember the details and was surprised by those that could. He saw it as a personal failing that his memory wasn’t as good as other peoples’, so he went on a research expedition to find out why.
Hey Matt, were you aware that a civilian grand jury indicted Angela Corey!!!
/s, j/k, lol
I would imagine the ability to disconnect immediately from one’s work would be a prerequisite to a long term career as an ME.
Try this: Bao has an extensive commentary on pain TM suffered when questioned by the State. Bao was immediately hostile to the defense. Defense counsel gets up and POOF! Bao can’t remember sh!t. Has notes, part of which contain info about memoery loss. Doesn’t it occur to you that the memory loss info notes were for him to refer to as a shield against cross about particular findings about TM’s body?
I wonder if the notes are written in Ingwish, or Chinese.
I bet the defense’s first move after the break is to move for a mistrial even if they think it will be denied.
Bao’s testimiony is a catastrophe and the judge is a catastrophe.
She’s never been in this kind of spotlight before.
But there’s absolutely no way you can have a critical state’s witness testify having failed to disclose his notes prior to his testimony without it being a serious Brady violation. The fact that he may not have actually told the State is beside the point since the State had an affirmative duty to ask him to provide all his trial prep. notes. It’s unfairly prejudicial to the defense, cannot be cured by any fathomable jury instruction, and based on Bao’s testimony in which he claimed TM could not have moved after being shot, obviously harmful and prejudicial.
1. A mistrial motion from defense would be INSANE. This is THEIR trial to lose. Why give everyone involved a chance to improve their performance?
2. Bao IS an expert. He is a awful, terrible, really BAD testifying expert.
3. This is not an “out-of-control” court. This is pretty typical where you have a key witness who squirts sideways on both sides. I’ve had worse.
Rags, I really appreciate your interjections of reality and experience into this. Having very little experience in court (jury foreman on a petit jury in Texas – guilty, juror on a 12 member jury in Texas – defendant pled before we decided), viewing the OJ trial and now this), it’s hard for me to know what is normal and what it not.
Thank you, tx. “Normal” is a term rarely applied to me…
My trial experience has been pretty weird in some respects. I am the only attorney I know who has had a Harris County jury award me 4x the underlying amount in controversy as attorney fees. That was more a function of how much they hated the defendant (another attorney) and his lawyer than any great talent of mine.
It has been fun/instructive/terrifying/disappointing/saddening/astounding/inspiring/dispiriting, etc.
You have to move for a mistrial to preserve the issue for appeal. Else it might be waived.
This is assuming Nelson would never grant the motion obviously.
If a mistrial is granted that’s a win for the defense and you worry about the retrial if and when it ever occurs.
In a normal criminal trial, if a mistrial is granted it is a win for the defense. The state may or may not want to go through the expense of a retrial, the defense has gotten so see the prosecution’s case, and the defendant is probably guilty and it is worth the defendant having to spend a few more weeks or months in jail waiting for a new trial.
As we all know by now, this is not a normal criminal trial. This is a bizarro world upside down case that should never have gone to court and that never would have gone to court if not for the racial politics.
I would hate for the prosecution to get a do over at this point, since they could only do better in a second trial.
A judge who wouldn’t grant the defense a continuance because of the slow-rolling discovery because she’s pro-State and about to be transferred isn’t going to grant a mistrial.
The defense needs the motion on the record for appeal if there’s a conviction. IANAL and even I know this.
BTW, if you want to read pure illogic and wishful thinking, read Axiom Amnesia’s Twitter feed.
“Zimmerman said he wiped the blood from his eyes! Check out THIS photo!” (shows photo of Zimmerman *after* he was cleaned up by paramedics) “CONVICT!”
This is absolutely unbelievable.
I’ve testified as an expert witness.
The court and both sides expect you to have your act together, and explain in their terms the technical factors. The state”s DNA guy did that well (although what was accomplished by the prosecution is a mystery).
Questions:
1 – Can the defense move to have Bao’s certification as an expert rescinded?
2 – Would they want to ?
3 – Will the earth shake when the defense puts on THEIR expert witnesses ?
Defense can move to have the entire testimony stricken but unfortunately jury has already heard it.
The only cure to the unfair prejudice caused by the State’s witness is to move for a mistrial.
Regardless of whether Nelson grants it (she probably wouldn’t) the issue needs to be preserved in the event of a guilty verdict and appeal.
This trial is now definitely in the theater of the absurd.
Strike on what predicate?
The predicate is that the witness wasn’t ever testifying from his actual recollection.
He testified he could remember nothing of the autopsy.
He then read from notes he prepared prior to the trial.
He was NOT able to use the notes to refresh his recollection, he claimed that he could NOT remember the autopsy from recollection even after using the notes.
The notes could be used for the witness to refresh his recollection but if the witness testifies the notes were ineffective in refreshing his recollection he is not allowed to read the notes into evidence, which is effectively what happened (if you actually believe Bao when he said he can’t remember).
Well, that is a theory.
Dunno that I agree. Experts testify from “other stuff” besides their own recollection all the time.
The evidentiary question is whether the “other stuff” is of a type reasonably relied upon by experts. I’d say your own contemporaneous notes would conform.
Prediction:
Mistrial moved and quite possibly declared after the lunch break.
You heard it here first.
Marco, You have made a number of informed and helpful comments. Why would a mistrial be beneficial to the defense, given the really helpful performance of many of the prosecution witnesses? I hardly see the prosecution withdrawing the charges. Also, does more time really help the defense present a stronger case than they have/will have now? Just asking.
You miss the point! This trial was to punish GZ and a mistrial will prolong his acquittal and reun up his legal bills, ie more torment for George
That can only happen if the defense co-operates and makes the motion.
I don’t think a mistrial would really help the defense but I think it needs to be moved to preserve the issue if an appeal becomes necessary. If there’s an acquittal no harm no foul. If there’s an appeal they want to bring up this cluster-fudge as one of the appellate issues.
On what grounds?
Brady violation and/or FL state criminal procedural law analog violation.
The most egregious misdeeds by the prosecution and attorneys for the Martins and the race baiters occurred before the trial.
I know that Judge Nelson is going to deny any motions the defense puts forth with regard to ending the trial, be it a mistrial motion, a directed verdict motion, or whatever. But that said, I wouldn’t want the defense to not file them, because I really, really want to hear the reason for her denial.
Nelson let this trial get out of control repeatedly and specifically let Bao get completely out of control both on direct and on cross.
Nelson needs to own this.
There is no way this judge will not let this go to the jury. She would be crucified in the press (and maybe literally) if she did so. Unfortunately, the judge does not have to give reasons for her ruling.
And you figure she won’t be “crucified by the media” if she tosses it?
When the “not guilty” verdict comes down, someone is going to be the butt of the criticism. Nelson isn’t going to step up to the plate for that.
Comments from my bro-in-law, retired attorney, 15 years defense, 20 years prosecutor, as he’s watched this trial:
“Benny Hill could be a judge in that town.”
“It may be time to place the prosecution on suicide watch.”
“I keep waiting for The Monkees to burst in and make a madcap dash round and round through the courtroom, chased by bumbling deputies and adoring girls while I’m A Believer blasts in the background.”
Who hires these people? From BDLR, Corey, Rao, Bao and Judge Nelson. Do they not interview, look at references, resumes? WTF! And people actually questioned the competence of the Sanford Police. Really? They have looked the most professional compared to the clowns I just named.
Andrew, Concerning your comment “the greatest nation on earth”, doesn’t this farcical trial and media coverage since the shooting make the words stick in your throat a little? Where even our president weighs in with the race-baiters with “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon”? It was a very sober 4th for us here in the ‘heartland’.
This is still the greatest nation, in spite of the continued efforts to destroy it by BDLR, Judge Nelson, Angela Corey, Benjamin Crump, Al Sharpton and so and so.
Don’t lose track of the eight kazillion trials that go rightly and justly.
That’s a lot of trials. ;^)
The Presnit said that right after musing “My, what big ears you have!”, which logically leads to, “he could be my son.”
Two questions come to mind:
Is it possible for Bao’s personal notes that the lawyers are now studying to be offered into evidence?
Is it proper that the copies given to the attorneys be destroyed when court resumes and the original is handed back to Bao as Judge Nelson has instructed?
The original notes have to be preserved. If admissible most likely for impeachment purposes (to show discrepancies in his testimony) but not for the truth of anything asserted in the notes since they are not reasonably reliable as “business records” which might be admissible as a hearsay exception.
Whenever a witness is testifying from his notes, and not from a current memory of what happened, a party is entitled to examine all of those notes.
Thank you.
So does that also mean that West will not be allowed to question him about what is in those personal notes?
And also that Bao will not be allowed to use anything in those notes in his replies to the attorneys?
West can absolutely question Bao from what is in Bao’s notes.
I’m not a Florida lawyer, but in general the witness will be allowed to testify from his notes AND the defense can look at those notes and cross examine the witness about anything contained in the notes.
Technically a witness is not supposed to actually read from his notes on the witness stand.
he is supposed to testify from “recollection.”
Where there is no ability to remember, as Bao here has claimed, he can use notes to “refresh his recollection.” But then he must put his notes down and testify from his recollection, not from what he just read as being in his notes.
Since Bao has testified that HE CANNOT REMEMBER ANYTHING FROM THE AUTOPSY EVEN HAVING ATTEMPTED TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION FROM THE NOTES–THEY DID NOT “REFRESH” HIS MEMORY AT ALL–HIS ENTIRE TESTIMONY SHOULD BE STRICKEN AS IMPROPER AND INADMISSIBLE.
I think. LOL. Not a Fl lawyer either.
Depending on how the questions are framed, Bao may or may not be able to use portions of the notes to respond to West’s interrogation.
Would the notes not be part of the court record and would they not have to be so in case an issue came up for appeal? Also, were a judge to order evidence destroyed would that not in and of itself be enough to get a new trial should there be a conviction? Otherwise a judge could push for a conviction in all sorts of ways and then destroy the evidence of what she had done.
The originals of the notes should be marked for identification as an exhibit even if not moved into evidence, presumably in Florida exhibits marked for identification are preserved for the appellate record even if not actually moved into evidence, although I don’t know FL law.
So Bao will be intrusted to keep them? If they aren’t entered into evidence I would assume that would be the case but as Matt pointed out, I am not a lawyer.
No the court clerk keeps custody of the notes along with all the other documentary evidence.
Dr Shipping Bao actually performed autopsy on singer Van Morrison’s child in Texas in 2011. Thats all that came up for this ME, unlike Rao who numerous articles on her. None good. http://goo.gl/yQWEk
If Bao had done the autopsy on Elvis then I would seriously question whether Elvis was still alive or not.
I see nothing wrong with that baby autopsy report.
It looks to me like the baby was born with the diabetes and was untreated.
It is depressing to have the deplorable state of the justice system in this country rubbed in our faces so thoroughly by this trial. In this and other cases recently, #€|! Rolls up.
With the State about to rest, could it be effective to fax Judge Nelson (407-665-4092) to encourage her to terminate the trial on the basis of an absence of credible evidence of either an unlawful killing or the killing having been done with a depraved mind?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Leave the judge alone.
Hope you were not serious about faxing the judge btw.
No, I’m not kidding — that is Judge Nelson’s published fax number above. I’m merely asking if dropping her a message in support of the rule of law might be effective.
The pressure brought by the racists, which was obviously effective, was not rooted in law, but in group politics.
The amazement at my question makes me think there are some here who believe our judicial systems are not what they have become — a third political branch of government that could care less about the law. Denial is dangerous.
Leave the judge alone. As txantimedia points out, messing with her at this point is no different than what the other side to get us into this mess.
And by “us,” I meant GZ. Sorry for the miscommunication.
I find the absence of substantive rationale accompanying recommendations to not exercise my Constitutional right to address the judge, especially given that I would be speaking in support of the rule of law and not threatening violence. Are folks here so blind as to not see the difference?
This Republic has gone to seed in large part because irrational liberal activism is met with silence, indifference, or appeasement by conservatives. Those days are over for me.
So you want to do the same thing the race baiters did – try to affect the outcome of a trial through public pressure?
Does that seem sensible to you?
Since she seems to forget the laws she is presiding over, perhaps copies of the most important legal sections with bold and underlining for the parts that should make doing the right thing more obvious?
No personal messages included, of course.
BdLR now testifying that he didn’t know about Bao’s notes–AS I PREDICTED BEFORE LUNCH LOL.
Cluster fudge x 1000 for the state.
I think reason autopsy photos aren’t displayed for public consumption is because of Earnhardt case? I must say Andrew your tweets left me in stitches . A huge thank you for all the work you have done in keeping us abreast of what is going on in this trial!
Marco100 is clarivoyant LOL [see time stamp of my prior comment below]:
“Marco100 | July 5, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Let’s assume the defense was competent enough to ask for “all ME notes” pre-trial. “All notes” means “all notes.” It was the State’s obligation to provide them, and that obligation would have been continuing, so any newly-created notes should have been turned over when created. If Bao concealed from the State that’s the State’s problem not the defense’s. Bao’s an experienced ME and should have known better, and the State clearly had an obligation to ensure this wouldn’t happen.
BLDR may now be in position as an officer of the court to alert the court to the fact that he did request all of Bao’s pretrial notes and knew nothing about these. It’s now in the ethical realm and BDLR’s law license may be in Nifong territory if he doesn’t clarify all of this after the lunch break.
I don’t know about FL but in many states the prosecutor has a continuing obligation to turn this kind of thing over to the defense even beyond federal Brady requirements.”
Okay, Marco. We get it. I appreciate your posts and have uprated several but the horn-blowing is unseemly.
Andrew (or Bill)…will we get a new post to cover this afternoon’s proceedings?
BDLR testifying BAO completely “off the reservation.”
Mistrial should be moved, stipulated by State, and granted.
State should be looking for a mulligan here, and now they’ve got the chance.
Question: Does BDLR move for the mistrial LOL?
LOL commentators on Channel 9 now saying State can’t move for a mistrial because that might invoke a double jeopardy issue.
They’ll figure out some way to make this trial go on for another ten years. The goal here is to inflict as much personal and financial pain on George Zimmerman as the so called “justice system” can possibly produce.
TV flapping heads (led by Canadian Ashley Banfield) are rhapsodizing over Momma’s powerful testimony.
The woman has a B.A. in English with a minor in communications and cannot comprehend the concept of a hypothetical or contrafactual question?
She’s doing everything possible to avoid admitting that she would want the screams to be Trayvon, to support his total innocence. Clearly coached to avoid allowing the defense an “in.” But her evasions are apparent. The more times she evades, the weaker she looks.
Now the witness is testifying that he changed his prior depo testimony as to time of death of TM based upon a totally unrelated autopsy in a totally different case.
Judge Nelson must declare a mistrial on the basis of “manifest necessity”, double jeopardy issues be damned.
As messed up as this guy is, how does it bear on the already in evidence facts of the case?
Because Bao testified on the critical factual issue to the opinion that TM couldn’t possibly have moved after having been shot even though continuing to live up to ten minutes thereafter.
That’s a very critical issue in this case that is highly prejudicial to the defense.
The problem is Bao also testified that he couldn’t remember the autopsy and also that he formulated his opinion on how long TM could have survived on a totally unrelated autopsy he performed three weeks ago.
Remember he is testifying as an expert witness but there is absolutely no foundation in the record for Bao to have given this testimony.
It’s incurably prejudicial at this point.
Any opinion based on a single case is not conclusive.
I can’t believe I’m hearing this. Help me!
He claims he cannot remember what happened yesterday on a matter he himself says is very important.
This guy remembers nothing. He is making himself look so guilty that he changed his mind about a key point based on one case even though he has performed 3000 autopsies? This really is not a huge deal since it is absurd that he can without reservation say TM could have lived for up to 10 minutes but could not possibly have moved after he was shot.
Had he not been so difficult this train wreck might not have happened.
I gotta completely disagree with the whole “mandatory moving for mistrial” here.
If I am O’Mara, I LOVE Dr. Bao. I will LOVE HIM MORE after my medical experts knock the cover off the softball he has hung over home plate.
Anybody here think he’s impressed any jurors…??? Favorably, I mean…
@Ragspierre: First, I love that phrase, “knock the cover off the softball he has hung over home plate.”
I don’t think he’s really impressed the jury thus far either way. Unfortunately they’re not present for this mess.
Oh, they heard him testify. They heard their judge have to admonish him. They heard him argue with everything that draws breath in the courtroom, INCLUDING their judge.
(I think. I’m not listening, so…)
I will bet you an order of General Tsao’s chicken a mistrial motion was moved for or at least discussed during the bench conference. LOL. Or kung pao if you prefer.
Holy crap! Holy crap! The prosecution cannot be happy with this revelation in court.
Oh this is a Richardson hearing.
Not trial testimony.
A richardson hearing must be some kind of 104 hearing in florida.
Any one know what a richardson hearing is?
Definition of Richardson hearing from definitions.uslegal.com: “A Richardson hearing is a hearing to conduct an inquiry into the surrounding facts and circumstances of an alleged discovery violation. For example, a Richardson hearing might be requested because the opposing party attempts to call a witness not included on their witness list. The court will attempt to determine whether discovery violations are inadvertent or willful, trivial or substantial, or affected the defendant’s ability to properly prepare for his\her case. The question of prejudice does not depend on whether the undisclosed evidence might have affected the outcome of the trial, but whether the violation affected the defendant’s ability to prepare.”
So a key ear/eye witness changed their testimony on stand. Rachel adds/changes her story at trial, and now ME changes his “opinion” on whether or not TM could have moved after he was shot and if he had drugs in his body.
This is really a mess for the state, but sounds like they created it.
Judge is such a wench! okay so now he is saying drugs may have had an effect where before he didn’t think they did? ME really confuses everything.
I thought it was Rachel who was consistent with her lies, but 2 other witnesses did change their testimony on the stand and were impeached.
Expert-witness games: A few years ago I was cross examining the plaintiff’s expert witness about why he did not produce his notes as required by my subpeona. His answer was that he always destroyed his notes because defense counsel just used them to cross examine him and make him look bad.
Well, gotta love that candor, anyhow…!!!
Hell, he’s putting the ball on the tee, and putting his head between the bat and the ball.
Did Bao just testify that he told BDLR about his change of opinion on the toxicology, and BDLR said we don’t want to talk about that? Isn’t that proof of sanctionable actions by BDLR?
Since BLR just testified he knew nothing about it (we think that’s what he told the court) yes he just through BDLR under the discovery bus.
What is a “Richardson hearing”?
Richardson hearing is re: discovery violation.
Bao testified that he told BDLR about the change in testimony the day before during the 40 minute meeting.
Why isn’t that a discovery violation?
For a prosecutor, it certainly would be.
Whether it is material to anything is another matter.
It DAMN sure is sanctionable conduct.
BDLR’s defense: I couldn’t understand my witness’s dialect, it sounded like he had a mouthful of General Tsao’s chicken.
Since they are trying to determine a discovery violation, this guy is priceless.
If this trial was actually a movie no one would believe it.
Nelson denied the richardson violation but it sounds like Bao testified that he did tell the prosecution about the change in his testimony prior to the trial.
Wow. That is another appeal item.
Once again the judge refuses to allow into evidence new information just discovered by the defense that is prejudicial to the prosecution’s case! I am truly gobsmacked.
This judge is incompetent. She should be directing the witness to hand up his original notes to be marked into evidence–NOT West’s copy.
In most jurisdictions, a true and correct copy is same-same.
You don’t let a witness walk out of the courtroom with the document BEFORE it’s been copied though.
What if he spills his General Tsao’s chicken all over it?
Copied and marked by the clerk, of course.
The judge never had copies of Bao’s note made for her. UNBELIEVABLE!
The original of the notes should have been marked for Identification before handing copies to the attorneys since Bao already testified from them.
Incompetent judge here.
I take back the adjective “incompetent.” However I do disagree with a lot of her rulings.
Maybe Judge Nelson anticipates an acquittal so all her potential trial errors will be no harm no foul.
This judge is simply a loser. What a miserable person. More bitter than a lemon…
careful Fabi, lemons can taste sweet, and yes I have tasted sweet lemons, but bitter as grapefruit will do 🙂
What a charlie-foxtrot this is.
Unrelated note: I really hate commentary streams. Every momentary interruption of sound is taken as an opportunity to bloviate.
OK I take it back Judge Nelson is not incompetent. That’s kind of strong language, but I do disagree with a lot of her rulings.
In a way, this judge is a priceless gift to the defense. The last thing you want is a judge who rules your way on every point, Then there is nothing to appeal. This judge has committed so much reversible error that even if the defendant were to be found guilty, there are many, many grounds for a guilty verdict to be reversed.
In a way, this judge is a priceless gift to the defense. The last thing you want is a judge who rules your way on every point, Then there is nothing to appeal. This judge has committed so much reversible error that even if the defendant were to be found guilty, there are many, many grounds for a guilty verdict to be reversed.
Judge Nelson is incompetent and there is now way she should be presiding over a case with such high stakes.
What is she talking about?
He’s crossing him to show that his answers may not be credible.
And if there are only two questions he’s allowed to ask, why did she waste our time with that whole examination?
This ME is a remarkably bad witness for the state.
I am placing an order for 10,000 t-shirts with “I do not remember anything” on them.
Anyone interested in buying one?
Bao: “I shouldn’t miss anything”. No shit but you don’t remember. He doesn’t know who placed clothing in plastic bags. But he should.
And Bao also testified he spend “hundreds of hours” reviewing the evidence.
It’s all just a bunch of jive talking at this point.
“I told you before I don’t remember.”
Compare with GZ’s truthfulness to the fuzz.
“It’s not my job.”
Hey I bet this guy is a government employee.
Any takers on the bet LOL?
He knows little and remembers less. Those are the points he is most eager to get across.
Maybe part of West’s strategy has become to get Bao to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” as many times as possible. Its working. How does this guy have an ME job? Brutal.
Because unlike his competition he at least doesn’t clip his toenails and wash his feet in the autopsy sink with the livers, brains, and other bodily organs.
West keeps saying “toxicology” i.e. implying to the jury (without actually violating the jugde’s ruling) that there may be a narcotics issue with TM.
LOL.
I’ve said it before, West is really good at the “get it front of the jury” move. The question is what matters, the answer is irrelevant (or inadmissible).
How awesome would it be to work for this guy? “It’s not my fault, it’s their fault. If it was done wrong, they did it wrong. I would have done it right. It’s not my job, it’s their job. If anyone did it wrong, it was them. I would have done it right.”
“We are in the very best of hands”.
This is Mr. Civil Service. He is a highly educated, very intelligent professional, with years of experience.
Which ought to scare the living spit out of you, since…given the above is true…all the foibles you STILL have are legion.
This trial is a great object lesson for all Americans.
By “this guy” you are referring to President Obama in your post? Right?
Could Bao be compelled to read his notes in total to the jury? No questions, just read….
If I’m a juror, what I’m getting out of the Medical Examiner is that he doesn’t care about procedure, he just renders a Cause of Death. Just listening to this guy, he doesn’t remember anything, and is just testifying to what he wrote down from the notes. He has no idea if any procedure were followed.
I’m not sure if I can believe anything he says. He keeps saying he doesn’t remember anything. And he keeps setting the technicians up for the mistakes.
This is absolutely ridiculous. Wouldn’t be worth the contempt of court charge and just ask the question about THC anyway just to get the jury to hear the question. Ring That BELL!
Given the high profile of the case and the judge’s admonishments not to do so, West would be putting his law license at risk.
Bao does not like Ben. Poor Ben. No uncertainty in his memory when it comes to who would have eff’ed up. No qualifying his answer or quibbling there… no sirree.
He stated he spent hundreds of hours reviewing what he did on this case, wrote notes and still claims he doesn’t remember anything about it. Thats not at all credible. If you spend hundreds of hours and make notes about anything you must remember something. How did he get thru high school not to mention medical school.
If I were a juror I would be wondering what is so important about the tox report that it is being fought tooth and nail by the prosecution
Does anyone know if the toxicology report is in evidence?
So the judge ruled that this witness can’t be questioned about his toxicology report?
I don’t understand how that is possible.
I assume because THC in the bloodstream doesn’t really have much if any relevance to whether or not TM was aggressive and/or attacked GZ.
It’s not very probative of anything.
If TM smoked a doob it doesn’t really bear on who threw the first punch.
I have assumed that O’Mara did blood tox screens, too. (I would have.)
It never seemed to be a factor.
Whether or not TM was high is directly relevant to GZ’s motivation for being suspicious of TM, which the state has put at issue.
GZ called 911 and reported reported seeing a guy walking around in the rain who looked like he “was on drugs or something.” The state claims that GZ was really suspicious of TM because he was black. So the fact that the reason GZ gave for reporting TM was factually accurate is relevant.
it does reflect on Martin’s background, especially his drug dealing as well as his wannabe gang membership etc.
The finding of the THC opens the door into the truth about Trayvon Martin that Sybrina has been hiding. It exposes the Scheme Team.
When you are queen of the courtroom you can pretty much do what you want.
If GZ is convicted, it will be the court of appeals’ problem. If they overturn the verdict, then the media will blame those damned activist conservative judges on the court of appeals.
If GZ is acquitted, then the state cannot appeal. The media will not be able to blame her for not doing everything she could to ensure a conviction.
Deemed inadmissible due to no prior knowledge by the defendant of TM’s weed use. I believe it was argued that the tox level of 1.5nanograms does not correlate to recently smoking.
Though the judge has been on board with anything in GZ’s past.
Make’s one wonder in a self-defense case (where either deceased or defendant could reverse roles)why events leading up to the incident are not admissable
Answer about the single stick for five fingernail scrapings was another autopsy error. Should have been one stick per fingernail, plus clippings.