I trust that everyone had a safe and satisfying celebration of the birthday of the greatest nation on earth yesterday, and that no fireworks were left unexpended (if any were left unexpended, deduct 10% from “man-card”–and for Pete’s sake, don’t tell anybody).
Today we will again be covering the Zimmerman Trial live, all day, with streaming video. Continuing commentary will be posted in the Twitter feed of selected contributors below the first video feed, and breaking news will be added at the bottom of this post.
During the lunch recess, or immediately thereafter, we will post a mid-day update. We’ll then follow up with the usual detailed end-of-day wrap up, including video and embedded Tweets, at the usual time in the evening.
ALERT! Court started at 8:40AM, early than expected. Trayvon Martin’s mother, Sabryna Fulton, is currently on the stand. It is anticipated that the State will finish with the last of its witnesses today and rest its case. At that point I expect the defense will submit a motion for a directed verdict, Judge Nelson will deny the motion, and the defense will begin to present its case.
Yesterday I posted up a general review of the trial to date, with some prognostication of how things may role out in the coming days. To take a look at that, click here:
Zimmerman Trial Review– How We Got Here, And Where We’re Going
For all of our prior coverage on day-to-day events in court, as covered here at Legal Insurrection, click here:
ARCHIVE: Zimmerman Trial LIVE coverage all day, every day
For all of our prior coverage on issues specific to the Law of Self Defense as covered at my own blog, click here:
Law of Self Defense Blog: Zimmerman Trial
(NOTE: If you do wander over to the LOSD blog, be sure to come back to Legal Insurrection to comment, as nearly all my time is spent here for the duration of the trial.)
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WITH COMMENTARY FROM CHANNEL 9 IN SANFORD
[For live-stream video without commentary, see NBC live feed at bottom of this post.]
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Friday, July 5 Commentary
. . .
Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense,” now available in its just released 2nd Edition, which shows you how to successfully fight the 20-to-life legal battle everyone faces after defending themselves. July 5, 2013 is the LAST DAY to take advantage of the 30% pre-order discount, only $35, plus free shipping. To do so simply visit the Law of Self Defense blog.
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Comments
Surprised they are bring her first?
oh geez with all the grammar and typo posts, I meant bringing her to the stand first 🙂
Wasn’t sure if you were doing lolcats or Yoda there.
You are funny. We made corrections to Andrew’s summary because we want him to write the book on the trial!!
Just got here this morning…one person gave a 1 star rating to this page. (WTF!) So I clicked 5 stars and jacked up your average to 3 stars. Everybody click 5 stars to give the hat tip Mr. Branca deserves for providing this valuable service.
Andrew –
Could you explain to us who are all the OTHER people behind the lawyers.
Many of them have laptops, seem not to be just spectators.
Thank you for providing such a wonderful resource on this trial.
It’s a huge case, need manpower to manage the documents, evidence, in case a surprise need to call something up during testimony.
Also, I expecte there’s a TON of counter-intelligence work going on, see if a witness Tweeted or Facebooked something of interest shortly before testifying, etc. Has proven useful at earlier times of trial.
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
somehow I suspect trayvon not in heaven.
Well, Ms. Fulton missed her opportunity to do the right thing. Guess she has decided with Crump’s advice, to continue the road of deception and racism to hopeful fiscal profit.
Where are George Zimmerman’s parents? Since the state did not call them as witness they should allowed back into the court room.
Wouldn’t the state have to rest their case first?
Also, they’re on the defense list of potential witnesses, as it Zimmerman’s brother. His sister is not. That’s why she’s in the courtroom.
Thus ruleth the judge. I still say it sucks.
Jahvaris is also committed to lie about the screams.
Two points: the discussion regarding the admissibility of the recording should be outside the presence of the witness; the recording is admissible to impeach his direct testimony identifying his brother’s voice.
Did Sybrina lie about Tracey telling her about the screams? (I ask because I don’t know.)
It is a good question because $$$$ybrina has been lying for the last 18 months.
JF sounds positive on the stand it’s his brother’s voice but unsure in the interview…can’t believe judge can’t hear the difference, count it impeachment, and let the jury see the recorded interview. Lawyer people please explain this before I lose all confidence in our justice system.
I’m going to be somewhat irritated if the live feed keeps skipping and jerking all day.
The stream is fine on the Orlando Channel 9 website
Hm, OK, I’ll check that one. I thought they were the same feed, or are you referring to the one with commentary?
I think LI imbeds the Channel 9 stream. If you get it directly from the tv website it works fine. It does have the commentary.
This one has always worked perfectly for me. http://wildabouttrial.com/george-zimmerman-live-stream.html
I’m using the live feed without commentary and it’s fine. I’m on a T1 line though. Check your connection and close background apps that might be interfering.
OK, thank you all for the livestream suggestions. I am working under the theory that it was at the far end, not my end, because it wasn’t just skipping, a couple times I saw “digital static” and that’s usually evidence of a glitch somewhere in the generation or feed (like a loose wire) not in the rendering at my end. I’ll poke around at the other feeds if it continues here.
I swear I only hit Submit once. Sorry.
OK, thank you all for the livestream suggestions. I am working under the theory that it was at the far end, not my end, because it wasn’t just skipping, a couple times I saw “digital static” and that’s usually evidence of a glitch somewhere in the generation or feed (like a loose wire) not in the rendering at my end. I’ll poke around at the other feeds if it continues here.
I don’t know about the laws of impeachment, but it is clear that the judge is not giving Zimmerman ANY benefit of the doubt.
I don’t get it. He is sure now. He was not sure 2 weeks after first hearing it. Why can’t his words be played before the jury?
SF was very psychologically threatened about even acknowledging the possibility that the screams for help could come from GZ and that TM might have been partly responsible for his own death. But refusing to go there makes the point to the jury that she cannot even consider the possibility it’s GZ screaming, so that sort of colors her voice identification testimony.
I do not believe that $$$ybrina was psychologically threatened. She knew that it was not her son. However, she would not know because she was not raising him.
Wait, the state is trying to exclude a prior inconsistent statement on one of the most important issues of the case as a collateral matter? Zimmerman’s criminology coursework is relevant, but who Martin’s brother identified as screaming on the 911 call is collateral?
The judge is saying that the witness equivocated on the question (“Do you remember doing the interview?”), not the answer, and the question is a collateral matter. The judge is saying that the answer the witness gave in court and the answer he gave in the interview are materially the same.
I’m a little dumbfounded that the judge won’t let the DEFENSE present audio recordings of a witness contradicting what he just said on the stand.
He said it was his brother. Statement of fact.
He was asked if he had ever told a reporter he wasn’t sure. He admitted he had. I can’t believe they won’t allow the jury to hear the difference in statements.
Ah, with that explanation the Court’s ruling sounds right (I’m following the feed, not the live trial, because I’m on a train right now.). Prior inconsistent statements are only admissible if the witness denies making them. If Martin’s brother said, “Yeah, I gave an interview where I said I wasn’t sure,” then the recording doesn’t get in. Fla Ev Code 90.614(2):
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.614.html
I didn’t know they were starting early today. Here’s the thing with me, I just can’t stand that judge. I’ve seen a lot of judges and listened to some throughout the years in my line of work (working for court reporters), and many that I have had at least sound human. Not that woman, though.
Judge Nelson used to be a prosecutor. Does that account for any of her pro prosecutor bias? Ya think?
What useless testimony. This judge is a disgrace too. She seems to be offended that O’Meara is defending his client. How dare anyone ask the Fultons/Martins, etc. any questions??
If she cared so much about Trayvon, why didn’t she do a better job of raising him? Tattoos on a 17 year old? What happened to my country?
I can’t imagine that the Court is not ashamed of itself when this is replayed. Judge Nelson might as well leave her place behind the bar and take a seat at the state’s table, because she is surely not presiding as her oath describes.
Trouble with locks? Forget them, just eat the bagels..Jesus H. The farce continues..
The MSM is continuing the ‘ she knows her son’s voice better than anyone ‘ meme. Must
really sting for the woman who actually raised Trayvon ( stepmother) to hear this horse hockey, given that SF has had little to do with TM since he was three years old
The family members’ testimony on who screamed or didn’t scream over the phone is likely to be almost entirely irrelevant in the jury deliberations.
None of the family members can rebut Good’s testimony that he observed TM ground and pounding GZ immediately before the fatal shot was fired.
I just heard the replay of what the brother testified to on direct–“That’s my brother…[then]I’ve heard my brother scream BUT NOT LIKE THAT.” So the brother basically impeached himself on DIRECT TESTIMONY.
So, the brother admitted on direct that HE HAD NEVER HEARD HIS BROTHER, EVER, SCREAM IN THE SAME SOUND/IN THE SAME MANNER as in the phone calls.
How does that establish the brother’s ability to identify the person screaming? It doesn’t. He never heard his brother sound like that before, yet he’d just claimed that he knows what his brother sounds like when he screams.
Reply of Omara’s cross of the brother: “I originally said I wasn’t sure because I didn’t want to believe it.”
Doesn’t matter, he wasn’t sure, and he admitted it. Brother’s testimony is essentially worthless.
He has a nice deep voice though…did they forget to coach him to speak softly in a high pitched voice?
Since the brother admitted on cross that he had previously said he wasn’t sure, then it’s probably not harmful error by the judge not to let the recording in. He already impeached himself.
If the State isn’t through with SF and will recall her shortly, what could they possibly have for her to add?
I’m really surprised that they did not wait to call her until last possible moments before the weekend break.
Maybe she needs to get out of town for the Trash Bucket Collection Tour. http://goo.gl/C9hhB
I recall being inside my house several years ago and hearing screams of agony.My first reaction was who is that and what happened. When I ran outside I saw that my son had broken his arm in a skateboard accident. In my experience one cannot identify a person by his screams.
Go ahead and get to it MOM: Crump made me listen to it and told me to say it was trademark
Since Ms Stanley raised TM I bet TrayMom® hasn’t heard TM scream since he was an infant.
why did MOM not object
Can the prosecutor lead him with “you listened to the tape with your brother’s scream’s”
All day and into the night, unless O’Mara objects.
just a bit baffled there… The defense has been on their game – may be a rough 4th?
The prosecution’s case is all about drama and emotion.
This is all probably planned in order to create distraction. There will be tears on the stand.
Sybrina will be called again right before the end.
Look for a chopped Onion on TrayMom®
They kept Treyvon’s mother on the stand for a button?
It’s all about drama.
Make the jury believe this sooooo hard for her.
Although SF came across as a shtrong person.
OK, the market for medical examiners must be REALLY tight.
Given that a major portion of his work involves testifying, a really good facility with English would seem a prerequisite.
Not like he works with a lot of talkative people all day….
I can’t speak Chinese nor any other language without creating broken sentences
Does anyone really *want* to become an ME? Or is this the last career option after abortion clinics and diet pill mills, when they realize you can’t be trusted with living patients?
Was there anything released in the ME’s findings with regard to TM’s tox reports? – and will the defense go there
Yes. Nothing really to “go to”.
No mention of brain damage. That rumor has been floating as if it’s some excuse for TM to act aggresssively in dishing out an aggravated assault on GZ.
TM did not have that type of brain damage. The report made comments on his liver which showed signs of damage, and there were comments about the brain which is most likely attributable to his drug use. I would think that it is some cells showed signs of dying.
The talking heads on tv are all over analyzing mothers testimony.The testimony went as one would expect and I dont see how it will be importantin jury deliberation. It will be helpful to help the stare get past a motion to dismiss.
UNDUE emotional drama, description and pathos being permitted by the ME for the purpose of swaying the jury – tha is not an answer to prosecutor direct question.
Pain and suffering is being described as long and drawn out… the intent is so obvious.
Agreed as to intent being obvious. They’re going for the “that poor boy lived long enough to know he was going to die” vote. Here’s hoping the jury sees through this obvious tactic.
The ME is speculating to create an emotional bias, and the judge is allowing it!
And he’s prepared to argue with the lawyer that it’s his opinion as an expert, not speculation, so it should be allowed. So we’re not going to get the expected emotional appeal from the mom, we’re going to get it from the ME? Fantastic.
Apparently, MOM convinced the judge to come to her senses about it.
If you’re going to have bias emotional testimony it’s more effective from a professional…..No?
I think it’s safe to assume that getting shot at point blank range through the heart might inflict some pain.
But the way the ME’s testimony really hurts the State’s case is the “he was still alive and in pain” which would support that TM could have flopped around quite a bit after the shot–and his arms could have wound up underneath the body.
Also supports that GZ could have, but did not, shoot the still-alive TM with additional rounds. That’s not depraved indifference and it doesn’t seem culpably negligent either.
I have to say SF certainly did not give very emotional testimony, the whole delay and then asking her about a button seemed very odd.
Not trying to sound insensitive here, but I was expecting a lot more emotion out of Trayvon’s Mom’s testimony. I understand everyone deals with things in there own way, but I was expecting some major tears up there. I wonder how Zimmerman’s Mom will react on the stand and how the State will treat her on cross.
Sybrina will be back on the stand. Just wait.
She was coached by the State not to overplay the “grieving Mom” routine in her testimony.
The “He’s in heaven now” means she couldn’t resist doing it at least a little bit though.
I know she was coached and likely told not to force anything or start going to hysterics, but I think of my own mother. If my mom had to listen to what she thought was me screaming for my life, I can tell you right now she would have been emotional regardless of how coached she was not to be. I mean maybe she become desensitized during the trial due to hearing it so many times, but I just imagine my own mother’s testimony would have been a lot different than that one.
From what I had been reading she already put on her act at other times during testimony.
That woman should have been removed from the courtroom because of her obvious antics.
why would such a calculating woman feel any kind of emotion about the child she did not raise?
I am watching the Brighthouse News13 coverage and they are pretty even. Their analyst is saying this is definitely a proper objection for the defense to make.
the me might be qualified, but he’s sure hard on the ears. I quit watching.
I’m going to be very interested to see how Dr. Bao responds to cross questions, because thus far, it really sounds like he’s reading from prepared answers. Well, that’s how he sounded until the judge sustained the objection, and BDLR started on a leading question safari.
Hopefully the ME can explain how the heart could pump blood to the brain with a hole in its right ventricle.
Depends on the size of the hole(s) in the right ventricle. The pulmonary (right-sided) circulation is low pressure, so it’s not at all impossible that some blood was still going to the lungs rather than gushing out of the wounds. The factual error Dr Bao made was stating that blood went from the right ventricle to the (main) pulmonary artery to the brain. The way he said it strongly implied directly to the brain, but that’s wrong (or woefully incomplete*). Deoxygenated blood from the RV goes to the lungs, not the brain. To get to the brain blood has to get into the left sided circulation (from lungs to pulmonary veins to left atrium to left ventricle then out-and-up the aorta).
*I think it was wrong rather than incomplete because he seemed to be trying to explain basics to the court, such as having 3 lobes in the right lung and 2 in the left (though the relevance of that factoid to the case escapes me). But a misstatement about pre-med level anatomy is the least of Dr Bao’s problems.
The ME said TM was alive for some time after he was shot. That is consistent with GZ’s account of TM saying something and him believing he had missed.
Completely consistent with everything GZ previously said. Also with the ability of TM’s hands to wind up underneath his body after the shooting but prior to death.
How long is “some time”? How long does it take to get out a few words? The ME is making it sound like TM lay there suffering for several minutes. Let’s hope the defense has better medical testimony.
The front of Martin’s pants are wet from after the shot. Nothing about back of pants being wet. The back of Zimmerman’s clothes were wet. Conclusion: Zimmerman was on his back immediately before the shooting.
“Abrasions on TM’s knuckles of his left hand–no other injuries [aside from a bullet hole].”
Gee totally consistent with TM ground and pounding w/left and and holding GZ’s mouth and nose closed with the other–just like GZ told the fuzz.
Needed testimony:
1. Was Trayvon Left-handed?
2. Did he usually lead with his Left Hand in his frequent MMA fighting?
LH/RH question would be good on cross to traymom….
Handedness would not be relevant in a ground and pound of coming at you with alternating fists. Consistent with Good testimony.
bizbach, GZ told dispatcher that suspicious person was wearing button. Prosecution claims GZ profiled TM. The Scheme Team modifies “The Narrative” to it’s not about race. TrayMom® testifies TM always wore button.GZ targets buttons. Button=Profiled=Guilty. Simple
thanks
BDLR must be a little bummed about the ME not being able to tell the “poor little thing suffering from so much pain” in front of the jury.
But he surely knew it was a long shot.
The video feed sucks–because the camera is pointed at the witness not at the evidence. It would be nice if we could actually see the evidence Bao is talking about wouldn’t it?
They showed some photos earlier on in the trial, including the body and bullet hole, but I’m guessing someone decided that those photos were too graphic to continue broadcasting.
And yet they have no problem showing extreme violence and graphic sex on TV.
Or GZ’s SS# and DL#…
Entrance wound of “intermediate range” ha ha not POINT BLANK.
Helps the defense possibly.
Dr. Bao – ‘soot. s o o t and powder stippling also called powder tattooing.’
Abrasion on left 4th & 5th fingers from “blunt force trauma” good for defense.
I wonder if Trayvon’s Cousin Stephen Martin will be called to the stand. His twitter feed (@RIP_TRAY9) has been documented elsewhere showing violence and drug use. One tweet even mentioned being high less than 24 hours before he was killed.
Not a chance unless the State opens that door. The only evidence of drug use admissible, if I understand correctly, would be the toxicology result.
This case is all but over. Another bad witness for the prosecution. Bao just confirmed that TM had abrasions on his left knucks entirely consistent with Good’s testimony observing TM doing the ground and pound on GZ.
Other than the gunshot and internal injuries no other injuries to TM. Just where he was punching out GZ and the shot.
“He was alive for 1 to 10 minutes after he was shot.”
He bled out, internally.
“Straight shot right into the heart.”
A-yup.
The 1 to 10 minutes alive also bolsters the possibility that Trayvon did say something to Zimmerman after being shot, that Trayvon did move his arms in after Zimmerman had them stretched out, and that Zimmerman being shocked Trayvon was dead is reasonable.
The items that the prosecution says does not fit the case above now make more sense. The case seems to all be pointing to Zimmerman telling the truth and it being self defense.
does any one have any source for the number of times this judge has ruled against the defense regarding evidence? I have looked and been unable to find the answer…
“Obsolete Confidence” intermediate range. Not a contact wound.
“100% confidence intermediate range shooting–by definition when you see the stippling”
Yes but what’s the distance dummy?
He doesn’t know??????? OMG.
Range of shooting is my opinion, not the fact.
HE DOESN’T KNOW. HE DOESN’T KNOW WHAT “INTERMEDIATE RANGE” MEANS. OR, HE DOESN’T WANT TO SAY, BECAUSE BAO KNOWS WHAT HE JUST SAID CONFLICTS WITH THE STATE’S OPENING STATEMENT ABOUT THE GUN BEING PRESSED INTO TM’S SKIN.
LOL
/TRIAL
Has the State put up a witness yet who hasn’t impeached their own testimony?
Leading question, .4 inch to four feet = intermediate, Bao doesn’t want to say it for some reason “I didn’t measure it, it’s from the book.”
Now it’s “intermediary” not “intermediate”?
LOL Bao is now a hostile witness for the State.
As far as I can tell, “intermediary” refers to the sweatshirts as in “intermediary target”. The sweatshirts were in between the gun and Martin’s body, the intended target. I don’t see why that matters as Bao doesn’t seem to want to say anything definitive about the range the shot was fired from.
“Is that correct”?
“NO. It’s different.”
Bao is now effectively a hostile witness.
He is refusing to provide testimony that the State can try to spin to claim the gun was pressed to Trayvon’s chest.
I don’t get it. Why would it be a bad thing for the gun to be pressed against Martin’s skin when it went off? I would assume that most gunshot wounds delivered between grappling opponents would be against the skin or close to it.
If gun was held against the body you would expect to see fibers impeded in the wound.
rhorton,
the problem isn’t with the testimony of this witness, it’s that the State in its opening misrepresented what that testimony was going to be.
Obviously they had to have KNOW what Bao’s testimony was going to be.
This is another self-inflicted wound by the State.
“Loose contact.”
Florida really outdoes itself in finding its medical examiners. They must have a very strong affirmative action program to promote diversity.
Apparently there were grass stains on Trayvon’s knees. Defense will have a field day.
@Voluble: How many medical degrees do you have? How many languages do you speak? How many medical degrees do you have in another country, in another language?
It is quite possible to be a very good student and a very bad practitioner.
Does it seem to you like this guy has the first clue how to behave in a court room? Does it seem to you like he has a good enough mastery of the English language to hold the position he holds? Soot, s-o-o-t. Soot. Cat. c-a-t. Cat. Intermediary/intermediate — now where is my ME position?
Do you really think this is the best person FL could have hired?
And why did he want to give a speech instead of being questioned in a professional manner?
These are just a few things I observed that make me believe as I do. Perhaps you could point out which of these opinions are brought into question by my not holding a medical degree?
I will say it again, FL has a problem with the professionalism of its Medical Examiners if the two we have seen in this trial are indicative of their average quality.
This guy seems better than the last one, and at least has first hand knowledge, but they have both been flaky as all get out.
you may not have any medical degrees, but neither do the jurors and they may be thinking the same thoughts
> promote diversity.
Yeah, the state probably counts Bao (and Rao) as “minorities” when counting up the number of nonwhites on its payroll, but I can assure you that if they have kids, the little Baos and little Raos will not get preferential admission to colleges or medical school, or special reserved scholarships. Quite the opposite, in fact. Proportionally there is “over representation” of east Asians and people from (or of ancestry from) the subcontinent in medical school.
When does BDLR start yelling and waving arms like he’s trying to fly.
Bao can testify with “zero” confidence as to where the individuals were in relationship to each other (other than the obvious–TM was shot from the front, but then we all know there was only one bullet hole, and it was in his chest, no one is saying GZ was behind TM and reached his hand around the front of TM. At least not yet.)
The crazy ass-cracker reach around theory?
Sorry.
When the state rests its case do you suppose O’Mara will raise an objection?
As in, “Objection, the State needs to continue presenting my case” ?
Objection, as in, “Your honor, please make them call more witnesses”.
The clothing makes sense. The weapon was in contact with the clothing, but the clothing was not in contact with the body. Think about it. If you are standing, your clothes are in close proximity or contact to your chest. If you are leaning over backwards or laying down, they are in contact. If you are leaning forward – they tend to separate from you.
Yes but it’s entirely consistent with GZ’s version as told to police.
The defense highlighted this point in its opening statement.
Can you say if he could move?
I don’t believe he can move after shot. Basing that on a prior autopsy three weeks ago?
What about any of his other 3,000 cases?
let me get this straight…. TM could not move after being shot due to an autopsy that dr bao did on another person three weeks ago… and he has completed over 3000 autopsies.
that just does not make any sense. the injuries on the autopsy done three weeks ago have nothing to do with TM’s injuries.
Of course he could move – there’s no evidence of injury to spinal cord or brain (GZ is the one with potential brain injuries.) The ME provides no basis for his opinion that TM was alive, in pain but unable to move.
Watch out for a significant reversal on cross examination.
Are you trying to find logic or common sense in the State’s case?
This witness is almost as bad as listening to RJ but at least he’s being truthful.
I just watched the video of SF meeting with reporters and explaining the button. What I was taken by is a mother who asked to describe her son says something about him getting up and having breakfast and that he liked to eat. The reporter had to push her to say something more personal, like what exactly he liked to eat. I would hope that asked to describe me my mom would have a lot more descriptive things to say than I got up and looked for breakfast if I had time. Very strange to me, but not judging just commenting.
Since Trayvon had not been living with $$$ybrina, how could she know what he liked for breakfast?
OMara should be able to tear Bao up on cross re: whether someone who’s shot and bleeding out internally from 1 to ten minutes could move around a bit.
Any LEO will tell you that the reason you empty the clip into an aggressor is precisely because he can still move and get to you between the first shot and actually dying even if it’s a fatal shot.
Unfortunately, O’Mara is not going to do the cross. We know this because West is doing the objecting.
Noted.
What s this?
Is the witness leading the interrogation?
BLDR and Bao are fighting with each other but don’t want that to be apparent.
Bao is not letting himself be boxed into the State’s narrative since the evidence doesn’t support it. Although his statement that a living gunshot victim couldn’t still be moving before dying was absolutely ridiculous, no clue why Bao would say that based on a single autopsy of someone else, three weeks ago.
Knucks = “Superficial injury from blunt force trauma. It could have happened before TM & GZ’s confrontation. 2 hours before he died. It could have happened during the physical struggle. It could have happened during the shoot. Or event AFTER the shoot????”
Um, I guess he COULD have moved after the shoot, another witness who just impeached himself on direct.
I get the impression that Bao takes his testimony/duty very seriously. Not sure he is helpful either way but he seems to be very professional and isn’t willing to let BDLR put words in his mouth. It will be an interesting cross
Bao’s testimony that TM could have moved after being shot through the heart (based on a single other autopsy three weeks ago and apparently disregarding his other 3,000 autopsies, as well as common place experience of LEO’s) is completely ridiculous and conflicts with his own testimony that TM’s hand abrasions could have been incurred AFTER the shooting.
Further, even if TM could supposedly not have been capable of voluntary movement after being shot, he was clearly incapable of involuntary movements such as muscle contractions, etc.
Bao testified that his brain was still functioning for as much as ten minutes after having been shot = quite possible he was capable of voluntary or involuntary movements.
Taking the scenario out of an LEO context, in wartime, soldiers get all kinds of horrendous fatal injuries yet are still able to engage in some form of voluntary movement before they actually die.
Bao is going to think about what he said during the ten minute break and assuming West’s cross is even moderately competent will back track. He won’t be credible if he doesn’t back track.
“could NOT have moved” lol
“capable” of involuntary not “incapable,” I’ve got Andrew’s fat thumb disease now I guess LOL
@Marco100: I can’t go back and review the testimony to be sure, but I think that when Bao said it could have happened “after the shot,” his original statement was basically “as he fell to the ground.” Like, after he was shot, he fell down and his finger hit a rock and got scraped. I think he even mimed falling forward as he said it the first time. I don’t think he impeached himself.
No rocks of any size on this lawn area. Standard issue St. Aug grass. Lawn company wouldn’t want rocks of any size due to mowing issues.
@caambers: Now you’re just being contrary. 🙂
And I grew up here, so I agree with you about lawn services and rocks.
Possibly. But right now on cross Bao seems to really be fighting West and backtracking on everything. The judge is losing control of the trial yet again.
I just love the amount of bullshit about this guy’s accent and speaking style from pretty white people in the Twitter feed above. This is not like RJ. He has an accent, and he speaks slowly in an effort to be clear. He might be boring you, but he is perfectly understandable. This is not like RJ.
Bao’s testimony directly supports Zimmerman’s account. The gunshot was “loose” contact with the clothing, not pressed against the body, just as Zimmerman related.
Trayvon was alive for one to ten minutes after the shot, supporting Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon said, “You got it” and then muttered some other words that were incomprehensible to him.
His opinion that Trayvon could not move after the shot is ridiculous and will be refuted by defense experts if it has to come to that. The only gunshot that is potentially instantly incapacitating is one to the brain stem. Anything else will cause the body functions to gradually decrease, not instantly as he testified.
His testimony about the hand abrasions directly supports the testimony that he was involved in a fight before he died (within two hours up to the moment he died.) We know where he was and what he was doing the two hours before death, so there’s only one plausible explanation for the injuries. They occurred during the fight.
Did they examine Trayvon’s knuckle abrasions for GZ’s DNA?
As I recall, they did not do so and that is, IMO, a forensic failure.
“You got it”…. that statement speaks volumes to me.
If that is truly what Trayvon said immediately after being shot, then it is case closed. Trayvon Martin was reaching for the gun and the intention was to kill George.
Opinion…very important
i think what dr bao was trying to do was to emphasize that the answer was based on his opinion and not on fact. when they are talking about intermediate range it isn’t a measurement of the range itself but simply states that powder burns were present. of course the distance from the muzzle to the skin will vary based on the type of firearm used and intermediary targets. in this case the bullet had to go through multiple garments (intermediary targets) so there really isn’t a way to determine how far away the muzzle was from the skin, but it wasn’t pressed into the chest.
..which the state knew in advance of trial yet contradicted in its opening statement anyway, then when Bao testified, they did the little dance trying to get him to say it was direct contact/pressed which he was unwilling to do.
I am so tired of hearing BDLR say, “I apologize.” Stop screwing up and you won’t have to apologize.
Jurors need a bathroom break.
none of which rules out an affirmative action hire.
most MD’s speak more than one language FYI.
if this guy got his license outside the US, it’s suspect to begin with.
and the ME broad, RAO? she got canned from one positionbecause she was washing her feet in the autopsy sink among other violations of sanitary procedure. how’d she get this gig.
bought by the prosecution.
he may have received his license outside of the us, but he completed his residency in pathology in Birmingham. but there is some verification required when a doctor comes to practice in the US. Doctors in China are actually very well educated.
if your info is correct then that adds to his cred IMHO.
From what university, do you know. and Birmingham.AL or England?
thank you
on further reflection this ME is a disaster.
He has no idea about the events leading up to your doing the autopsy?
I can’t remember .. over and over.
I don;t remember anything….
from my own limited experience in dealing with ME’s and watching Dr. G on Discovery health it seems to be common practice not to review notes prior or know anything about what happened to the body prior to death. even though this was a known cause of death, the ME doesn’t want to make an opinion prior as that opinion can cloud judgement.
it also explains his talking about opinion vs fact.
Bao’s residency at Baptist in Birmingham, AL. board certified forensic pathologist in 2009. board certified anatomic/pathologist 2008.
so this guy is a relatively new forensic pathologist.
thanks
you would think that during ME studies there would be seminar on preparation for testifying in court. I had one in med school/ post-grad for IME’s etc
did you see the testimony of the AZ/Phoenix ME during the Arias trial.
I’ll admit that I may have been spoiled from that experience.
I have only just learned of the joys of online court watching
She was also accused of probing a wound with a stick and walking thru puddle of bolod at a crime scene.
my understanding is that what you describe is standard operating procedure in, like , Bangla Desh.
we must open our hearts and minds to multiculturalism , mustn’t we?
Good God Almighty the people on WFTV are stupid. The non-commentary live feed burped about 10 minutes ago and the sound is now running about a second ahead of the video, so I started watching the commentary feed. As soon as they went to recess, the idiot on the left stated that the ME said that TM could not move after being shot like that (true recounting of the ME’s testimony) and that that was bad for GZ, who said that TM “stood up and said ‘You got me’ or something like that” after being shot (that’s a quote from the airhead reporter). GZ never said that TM stood up. Bill Shaeffer went on to say that yes, this testimony was “very bad” for the defense, because it shows that the encounter “could not have happened the way GZ said it did.”
Seriously, where the hell do they get these idiots?
The tv commentary is worthless if they perceive themselves as advocates for one side or the other. What they should be talking about is what the scientific basis for Bao’s testimony that someone who’s fatally shot can’t move at all, might be, since there was no testimony other than that Bao conducted a single autopsy three weeks ago which somehow he based this conclusion on.
It’s almost as if no one has ever seen Forrest Gump or any John Wayne movies or knows nothing about injuries inflicted in combat and what people with a huge surge of adrenaline are capable of doing under duress.
There must be thousands of soldiers who have gotten fatally shot, is Bao actually saying none of them were capable of movement after the first shot was inflicted?
People have gotten limbs blown off during wartime and they can still move around a bit.
Bao will have to backtrack on his testimony.
And he didn’t provide an experiential basis or scientific basis for the formulation of this part of his opinion. Basically he was trying to throw the prosecutor a bone.
Journalism school.
Because ME can’t say for certain how far from skin shot was Diana Tennis@Tennis Law thinks this man is strange in tweet comment. This isn’t Quincy ME you knucklehead.
Dr Bao Summary: Martin was shot and it did not feel good.
TM was shot, in incredible pain, brain still functioning for as much as ten minutes after, yet he was frozen immobile and couldn’t move at all.
But somehow it’s also possible he sustained abrasion injuries on his fist consistent with punching out GZ AFTER he got shot and couldn’t move at all?
I guess that means GZ took TM’s lifeless/motionless fist and punched himself in the head with it? LOL
I see several references to how cold it is in the courtroom. Doesn’t the judge have final say on the thermostat setting? Maybe she’s having hot flashes, which might explain her nasty temperament.
I can say this because I’m a female. If you guys say it, it’s sexist.
They need to keep it cold for all the video equipment.
ME, explaining meaning of being under oath to West. Can’t understand he is being asked to assume event occurred at a certain time for purpose of question.
Why is Bao being so combative? Does he not realize that doing so places him in a negative light?
Because the State tried to put the squeeze on him and Bao doesn’t like it. He fought BLDR and now he’s fighting West and he fought with the judge.
Bao is now doing what in street lingo is known as “jive talking.” He seems to titrate his apparent understanding of the questions and the intelligibility of his own responses in accordance with his perception of what might be best in covering his own rear.
pretty typical behavior for a lot of physicians IMHO
Haha, West is not going to allow Bao to take him on a narrative journey.
Rachel is now an Asian dude! Transubstantiation or just transgendered?
He’s being a real dick now! I’d like to ground and pound him!
The shot is heard on 911 call at 7:16 pm and when ME worker arrives at scene and leaves scene must be recorded.
Jeez!! What about when BdlR was talking over the witness?!? Biased much Judge?
This guy is crazy. He seems to be having a completely different conversation than the one everyone else is having.
“I do not remember anything on the day of the autopsy. Zero.” LOL. He’s just relying on his notes/autopsy report.
Bao is running full speed in reverse.
And Judge Nelson has pretty much, once again, lost control of her courtroom.
West: “The body is removed from the bag.”
Bao: “Or the bag is removed from the body.”
Did he really just quibble over that or did I hear it wrong?
Usually ME’s are pretty good at testifying, even if there is a language issue. This guy does seem to be rather poor at understanding the court rules.
Maybe Dr. Bao is aware of all the bullshit around this case. He is really, really worried that anything he says under oath can come back and bite his butt.
How long before Bao says ‘Got it?!’
Bao knows he screwed up by testifying that TM couldn’t have moved after being shot, based solely on a single unrelated autopsy performed three weeks ago out of 3,000, and contrary to what probably every elementary forensic science textbook actually says about the issue.
He is hoping and praying that West gets distracted and forgets to ask him about what is essentially obviously unfounded testimony.
How many videos are out there showing people being shot and moving afterward? It stretches the limits of common sense. Does the phrase “death throes” mean anything?
I thought that folks continuing to move after being shot was the whole reason that Gen Thompson wanted to move from the .38 long colt to the .45 acp after his experiences in the Phillipine-American war.
and then he buried them in a pigskin, right? no paradise for you!
the old ways were sometimes the best ways
It’s only within the last five minutes that it’s all become clear to me. The ME has no recollection of actually doing this autopsy. He’s relearning this case from his notes. In his words, “All my memories are new memories.”
Was Dr. Bao the one who put TM’s clothes in a plastic bag?
He does not remember anything!
I’m starting to wonder if the clothes were put in a paper bag in the ME’s office and then wrapped in a plastic bag when transferred out. either that or someone made a mistake in the ME’s office. Either way it looks bad for the state.
WOW This guy hasn’t a clue!
“Before I came here I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours” reviewing the evidence.
But none of that refreshed his memory?
Now he’s quoting Elizabeth Loftus LOL to defend himself against perjury charges LOL
Rumored: dr bao – in communist China you can be convicted of hypothetical perjury for answering hypothetical questions incorrectly in a politically motivated trial.