I watched the verdict come while on a 5-hour flight delay at O’Hare last night. Had there not been a delay, I would have missed it. Funny how things work.
What amazed me is that prior to the verdict, I heard numerous people talking openly about the case. It was pretty obvious they were worried about the possibility of a guilty verdict.
After 17 months of following the case intensively, only O’Hare traffic control problems enabled me to see justice done.
But, since I didn’t get home until 3 in the morning, I’m just going to leave this as an “Open” post for a while, for your comments.
I’ll have my own commentary later.
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Justice was served, albeit way too late, and Miami didn’t burn down
Two out of two ain’t bad!
Does Miami not burning mean the race baiters are irrelevant?
No, it means the race baiters no longer need riots. They’re in charge, in power.
Notice the quiet, subdued rhetoric this morning from the usual suspects (Ben Jealous aside).
The planning and plotting goes on behind the scenes.
This crisis will not go to waste.
This morning I wake up in an America where George Zimmerman is free, self defense is still legal and the imagination of liberals don’t determine the outcome of criminal trials. Good morning!
Except now the liberals will go after the self defense laws. It’s going to be a fight, and in some states law abiding citizens will lose.
Funny, I watched the “verdict watch” coverage instead of sleeping before work, jury came back just after I left for work. Should have got those zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs. Off to bed. Should sleep well now. 🙂
I was lucky this time because it was midday over here when the verdict was announced :). However, up until then I was very nervous about justice being seen to be done.
thanks for the excellent reporting …LI is one of the best blogs
If justice had been served, Zimmerman wouldn’t have been charged with 2nd degree murder in an effort to pander to a bunch of race baiting idiots.
It’s a lot deeper and darker than just racism. Sybrina Fulton’s brother is a Community Relations Organizer in Miami. Community Organizer is code for CPUSA.
Read about their nefarious agenda here:
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/the-zimmerman-verdict-is-still-a-win-for-the-race-baiting-left/
and here:
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/matthew-vadum/government-approved-race-riots/
In other words: This is not your Grandfather’s Civil Rights crowd.
Okay…maybe I missed something, but what has happened to the woman who raised Treyvon for most of his life, after Tracy Martin left Sabrina and before he hooked up with Brandi?
Oh, we know ALL about her, because Corey was SOOOOOoooo careful to bring out all the facts and information about this case.
She spent hours on the stand. We just missed it somehow.
(Am I sounding jes’ a lil’ snarky here…???)
Wow!
This case should never have been brought to trial. A lawyer on TV said Zimmerman should sue the State for malicious prosecution. Is that a realistic thing to do? Would it have any chance of success?
Probably not since although there was an acquittal, Nelson denied the motion for judgment at the close of the State’s case, which mean there was a prima facie case.
Zimmerman has a putative claim under 42 USC § 1983. He can plead that discovery violations kept out evidence that would have led to a dismissal.
Can you opine as to whether such a claim would survive a Rule 16 Failure to State a Claim Motion to Dismiss?
Wouldn’t the acquittal moot it?
Seems to meet the Texas elements, as I remember them.
Such an outstanding job of covering this trial. LI is now at the top of my Bookmark List.
Man, it is a beautiful day in New England today. 🙂
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
I hope it is a restful day, too.
I’m slightly in awe at the prodigious work you did in this matter.
I am TOTALLY agog at the defense team’s ability to even be standing at the end of this trial.
Thank you, Andrew, again…and thank Prof. Jabobson…for this source of excellent information, this forum for expression, and this outlet for our passions.
Thank you too Rags. I have said it before and I will say it again.
Many times these last two weeks as I was digesting the wonderfully rich cake that Andrew served us in his blog postings, your comments were the icing that made it all come together and I had an epiphany of understanding of how the law works.
Thank you, thank you, thank you all!
Hey Rags,
As I’ve mentioned, your own contribution was invaluable. Really, the only difference is that I happened (almost entirely by luck) to be in a position where I could essentially follow the case for ~18 hours a day.
I expect if your situations had been reversed, you would have done much the same–sought and shared the truth and exposed the lies.
It’s simply what decent people do.
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
Thank you. I don’t know I could have done anything like the job you did.
September is the tentative month for our cigar crawl/shooting event in Houston, so you and others should kept that in mind.
I’ll post details as I have them. I’d count it a privilege to meet you.
Hear Hear!
I, too, appreciate everything professor has done here, as well as Andrew, and Ragspierre in the comments…which I have praised before. Others with legal backgrounds have also helped clarify things, as well as those with good common sense … not always a feature of mine. Thanks everyone.
And in California! THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH for your coverage of this trial. I’m recommending your book to everyone I know that owns a gun (my daughter & son-in-law both just received their concealed carry licenses)! I can’t say it enough … THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
Andrew, I know I speak for a lot of us when I say we can’t thank you enough (aside from buying your book!) for the terrific job you did in making it easy for us to keep informed about this trial.
I work full time but by clicking on your LI twitter feed and occasionally on the live feed, was able to stay informed and knowledgeable about the situation. I was with a group of friends last night when we heard about the verdict and was able to immediately and authoritatively correct many of the errors and misintepretations that some in the group came up with after the verdict. I’m sure that’s being repeated with lots of LI readers and their friends and family.
What a service to the truth-seeking community and the country at large. Great, great job and thank you again.
it is the same here in Australia. The LSM keep using an image of the 17 year old dead person as he was when about 14 years old. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.
Outstanding coverage, Andrew…just outstanding.
Great job Mr Branca. You provided the Nation with the best trial coverage. Incredible job!
Yes, the sun is shining and the sky is blue in Massachusetts !
I agree Mr. Branca. Yours was the only resource that I fully trusted during this whole ordeal and will be where I know the truth exists. Thank you for the hard work you’ve done to preserve and protect our rights.
Hey, have I mentioned my book yet today? 🙂 Reviews coming in:
“Seriously people, get this darn book. I am not kidding about its importance.” — Miguel
“This book is as important as your gun and ammo selection for self-defense. Get yourself a copy.”–R. Larimer
“A must have for anyone that owns a gun. So valuable, I bought another to pass along.”–J.Chiles
“If you own a gun, own this book.” — D. Cole
“Buy this book! The rest of your liberty may depend on it.”
“Received my book yesterday! Fantastic information, thank you Andrew!” –B. Ball
http://www.lawofselfdefense.com
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
OH forgot..buya’ hesa’ book, I did.
Your book? Already bought two for friends who need it, and today am ordering another for my own reference. Ragspierre needs to write a book, I’d by it.
I did. It is called “Joe Shrugged”, and is a very short, very modest reprise on Rand’s HUGE work. It works from the premise that “Joes” would do the shrugging, since guys like Galt and Reardon have phalanxes of people like me to run interference for them, so they never feel the full brunt of the regulatory state.
I wrote it in the very early 1990s. My Golden…who is my entire reading public…gave it “meh” reviews…
Amazon has it. I just placed my order. I not only hated Atlas Shrugged, I hated that it had continued to be a book students in high school had to read! So Joe Shrugged, still in print, provides me with the antidote, should kids still be forced to read Ayn Rand. The 1990’s wasn’t so long ago. This nation’s founding wasn’t so long ago, either.
What we got was a system of government that withstands the worst abuses. And, the idiots who figure out how to get elected. As good men duck.
Well, good grief! Thank you SO much…!!!
I would actually enjoy hearing from you about it.
Hey, cool, I’ll have to check that out.
For anyone else considering writing a book, I can only say (and I’m sure Rags will agree) it’s a hell of a lot more work than it might look. You can’t see it, but those pages are soaked in blood and tears 🙂
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
I was hoping my copy of your book would have arrived in Saturday’s mail. Now I’m hoping for Monday 🙂
If not, use the contact form on my blog, http://www.lawofselfdefense.com to let me know, and provide order #. I’ll track it down. (That’s assuming you bought from me, if bought from Amazon, I can’t help.)
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
That Guinness (or should that be those) 🙂 is/are gonna’ taste real gooder, enjoy this day and many more of ’em. Salute!
Andrew, eternal gratitude for your yeoman work on this story and for your dedication to the truth. Thanks to you, even the Trayvon supporters who came to this site ended up admitting that manslaughter was the best they could hope for. That’s quite an accomplishment.
thank you, kindly, for shepherding we laymen throughout the trial with your expert and entertaining commentary.
i do have one further question concerning LOSD:
the social media is rife with threats of murder and mayhem, not specific to george zimmerman, but also to caucasians, in general. the threat level from certain parties, which shall remain unnamed is higher than the usual background levels.
assuming this proposition is correct, what are the ramifications regarding the law of self defense?
does one now have to wait until they are being beaten to an inch of their life to act?
have those that threaten murder and mayhem not lowered the bar of self defense.
this is a serious question and not just hyperbolic opinion
can one employ self defense by assuming that a significant group of mischievous youths (of unspecified race) approach with reckless actions that threaten anyone in their path?
has the black grievance industry and their handmaidens in the community and media just made it more likely that there will be more trayvon martins?
Andrew getting more fans (and customers). Well-deserved.
Gun Thread (7-14-13)
—Andy
The Zimmerman Trial
“Andrew Branca, who’s been tweeting and blogging the case at Legal Insurrection, is the author of a book called The Law of Self Defense. . . . . I plan on picking up a copy once they get their Kindle version released, because it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than attorney’s fees, etc., in the event that you find yourself in a situation similar to Zimmerman’s. I’ll review it in an upcoming gun thread.”
http://ace.mu.nu/
As previously posted–How did the State of Florida unilaterally preempt Zimmerman’s 5A right to a Grand Jury, before charging him with a crime?
The Federal Courts have determined that a “Grand Jury” indictment is not a :fundamental right” under the 14th Amendment. Tberefore, that part of the 5th Amendment is not seen as binding on the States. In most instances Grand Jury proceedings are pro-forma and the Courts as a matter of practicality did not impose that requirement on the States.
Watched Robert Zimmerman, Jr. on Piers and wondering – does anyone know what he does for a living? He is very well spoken.. just curious.
I thought that, too. I thought he should run for office because we need intelligent people who can hold their own (and better) against the likes of Piers Morgan, etc.
Then again, I don’t know if I’d wish the lift of a politician on any honest person.
…that should be “life” of a politician.. sorry.
Did you notice CNN cut him off as he was talking about his and George’s growing up mostly hanging with black kids.
Paraphrase/quoting:
Growing up in a biracial story of love, we found ourselves identifying mostly with black kids….cutoff
.
If someone could find the video.
It would have been interesting to hear the rest of what he had to say
Anyone have a link to that interview? I missed it.. 🙁
Robert Zimmerman Jr – Piers Morgan on CNN: http://youtu.be/-ePcLS5f7jw
If Zimmerman had been black…
1) No charges would have been filed
2) The Martins would be out of $1 Million+
3) The MSM would never have made it front page news for MONTHS+
4) Obama would never have heard of either guy
5) The DOJ would not be threatening to still come after him
6) The race hucksters would have to find another ‘creepy-ass cracker’ to whip up racial tension
7) There would be no threats of killing and assorted violence
8) Maybe the MSM would focus on the wave of killings in cities like Chicago — (silly me)
Heard this on Fox this AM.
If Zimmerman’s last name had been Hernandez, none of this would have happened.
a few people would still be employed and continue to have rank:
Police Chief
Detective
IT Director
etc..
right on baby!
just google joshua chellew and your wisdom will be revealed
What happened was a tragedy, but not a crime. Kudos to the jury. Lets hope they are left alone.
It will be interesting to see whether Holder’s “Justice” Department files federal charges, and whether Martin’s family files a civil lawsuit.
Especially after the FBI ruled out any racial component, it might be a bit difficult. Not that they wouldn’t file to help keep the “race war” alive to continue its work as a distractor from all the other crimes that this administration has committed and continues to commit.
Holder’s justice department is probably preparing charges against the six women on the jury.
and then there’s the IRS, EPA, OSHA, NSA, CIA, FBI, DHS…all manner of Obama enemy list possibilities.
you’re right again as usual , uncle.
george will have o make a pilgrimage to a land where there are few if any african americans in residence.
Hmmmm! i bet a lot of folks would like to join him there
There have already been tweets threatening to kill the jurors. I discount most of that, but you never know.
This was a good day for our legal system.
But this – the morning after – is the time for race baiters and race hustlers ginning up the hate and agitating the masses who buy into these lies.
Rev. Al is already at it. And of course the American media is more than happy to aid and abet the unrest – all in the name of “fairness” and “equality” of course.
But thank God the jury did the right thing. Zimmerman is free, and I hope he and his family will be safe. And the jurors, as well.
Nancy Grace and ilk damaged the most.
H*LL YEAH.
TIMELINE of The Media Persecution of George Zimmerman.
All quiet in Atlanta. I suspect it will be a couple days before SHTF happens here. Hot days, summer, no school- one arrest on the SW side of town, maybe in Clayton County or Dekalb.
I sure hope I’m wrong.
They will not take their quarrels into Cracker territory, because Obama has increased firearm and ammunition sales exponentially.
(Hope the same holds true for Andrew Branca’s book! Don’t buy one without the other – your life may depend on knowing Law of Self Defense.)
sadly, you are wrong, or at least in this part of Atlanta. last night, shortly after the verdict, shots were fired at a passing patrol car in my agency. (this was given to me during my pass on brief on assuming duty this morning.) as I write, we have had multiple people in our jail threatening violence and making exclamations like “what, you gonna beat my ass like i’m trayvon or something?”
things are low-key, but not quiet.
i’m very happy for GZ. he’s had a long road to follow to get here. unfortunately, only now does the real trial for his life begin. I pray to Almighty God that there won’t soon be another mother grieving – the Zimmermans have had a rough year as it is with this. it’s absurd enough that the baiters are pursuing a wrongful death claim and civil rights violation (in a non civil rights trial) and attempting to persuade the DOSJ to go along with it, but not once – let me repeat that, NOT ONCE – have I heard any of the prominent baiter leaders express a concern for GZ’s safety. would be nice to hear a call for dignity and restraint here.
now here’s a funny thought: you’re a member of the DOSJ. you get wrapped up in the middle of this trial, which you know deep in your heart should never have even made it to a courtroom. multiple guess. do you:
a) risk alienating the black community who are following a false narrative? which you fomented early on.
b) risk alienating the Hispanic community to appease the black community? right at a point when immigration is a hot point too.
c) risk alienating the women voters because you vociferously disagree with their (jury) decision, and tiptoe around misogynistic questions of their mental, emotional, or maternal instinct integrity?
ready? go!
EXACTLY.
The criminals are identifying with Trayvon Martin. And they should, it’s an apt comparison.
But they would have busted those caps at LEO anyway.
Just another excuse from criminals for their anti-social behavior.
I don’t think there is anything to worry about at all.
I don’t think this created any grassroots sort of uproar in the black community. This is proven by the fact that the media outnumbered the “protesters” outside the courthouse during the courthouse vigil and rather quickly disbursed.
This was clearly a largely media-driven event, obviously along with the Martin family/Crump/Holder/Corey/Obama Admin., et al i.e. people who had a direct interest in making this something it never was.
There wasn’t the anticipated uproar because most people of all races/creeds/ethnicities understand exactly what and who Trayvon Martin was–the “No Limit Ni**a”, a sociopathic young black male, at least if you go by his social media presence.
And george zimmerman was never what he was portrayed to be–a white (and perhaps jewish going by the last name, if you didn’t know better) racist. Completely as untrue as the notion that anyone who posted all the crap that TM posted in social media was an “innocent child.”
I believe the prevalence of the social media leaks is what kept MSM’s narrative from really having as much sway as it could have had. MSM has a great deal of trouble dealing with social media because it’s not controllable by MSM.
“There wasn’t the anticipated uproar because most people of all races/creeds/ethnicities understand exactly what and who Trayvon Martin was–the “No Limit Ni**a”, a sociopathic young black male, at least if you go by his social media presence.”
Unfortunately, this isn’t even close to being the case. The distorted picture of ‘Child Trayvon’ continues to dominate the media, and continues to be embedded in the minds of those who primarily get their truncated version of what happened from them.
This was dishearteningly obvious last night in the number of Trayvon-supporters (a disproportionate number of them black of course) interviewed after the Not-Guilty verdict came in. And in the descriptions and recapitulations of the trial and evidence regurgitated during those segments. There was not ONE post verdict media reference last night describing the character of the real Trayvon, the one who was pummeling George’s head against the sidewalk. Not one reference to the recovered phone files, indicating Trayvon’s aggressive preoccupation with fighting and guns and drugs. But still a lot of the same Baby-Faced Martin photos illuminating the TV screens and newspaper sidebars.
The comment sections of the on-line newspapers I monitored were no different post-verdict then they had been during the trial. They continued to reflect the same false narrative perpetuated throughout: Martin, an unarmed innocent minding his own business, accosted by an older armed brute ignoring police directives not to follow him.
And please, no screeching outbursts about what can you expect from readers and watchers from the detested liberal media: the anti-Zimmerman outbursts were just as frequent last night in the comment section of the Wall Street Journal and in the comments section at Fox News LegalInsurrection.com
The Baby-Faced Martin myth has been indelibly tattooed on large sections of the American psyche, and will, I fear, persist in the minds of those who have embraced it.
The media distortion of Trayvon Martin being a child has been going on around the world.
The picture of a younger Trayvon Martin is the only one that is being published here in Australia and in the U.K.
They continue to not tell the truth.
Over here in Australia we are mostly not gun owners but there is plenty of gun crime amongst bikie gangs. They kill each other and they shoot each other up. The next thing we hear is from a disgraceful Federal govt some diatribe about the gun crime. However, the real murder/homicide statistics show a different picture. With the exception of the murder/suicide near my own abode in NSW within the past week, the majority of the murders have been occurring via other means, including fists and heads hitting the concrete.
Last year (or maybe it was the year before), a young man was king hit when he was walking to a party in the Kings Cross area of Sydney. The attacker was a stranger who had king hit others on the same night. That young man who was 18 years old died when his head hit the concrete. The attacker pleaded guilty to manslaughter which is, over here a lesser penalty. He received a sentence that does not fit the crime of killing someone. I remain sympathetic to the victim’s parents. However, please note the difference, these parents are not on a trashcan tour but they are trying to do something to help end this form of violence which is the norm here in Australia.
The kinds of weapons that are used over here include accelerant, kettles, knives and any other object that will kill a person. One police officer of very high rank (an Inspector of Police) was killed when the perpetrator put a knife through his neck.
Yet, it remains most of the gun crime is committed by people who own illegal guns. They are mostly gang members who are involved in drug dealing and standover tactics.
Here we go again: Zimmerman is not Jewish.
The Zimmerman family in this case is Roman Catholic.
For another thoughtful perspective, here’s a Facebook post by my esteemed colleague Warren Leary, a retired NY Times newsman of deep integrity and sincerity:
This is a very disquieting time for those of us with young sons. The Trayvon Martin verdict reenforces the feeling that it continues to be open- season on young black men in this gun-crazy country. I’m really tired of hearing from people (including the Supreme Court) about how much this country has changed when it comes to race. Both of my sons, middle-class college-graduates with no criminal past or intent, have been stopped by police and “security” people on several occasions for being where some questioned they should be (as I was more than 40 years ago). We have been followed, stared at, met with apprehension, held under suspicion, and disrespected purely because of race (and I am tired of some saying we are just being paranoid or that we are overly sensitive about things that happen to everyone. We are not stupid and if you haven’t walked in our shoes, then you don’t know what you are talking about). Anyone thinking this case had little or nothing to do with race should wake up and look at the real world. That one young man commiting no crime can be stalked, confronted and ultimately killed when he stands up for himself — and his killer set free — means it can happen to other young men. And for African American parents with sons, it is not unreasonable or paranoid for us to be afraid, wary and angry.
“Thoughtful”?
On the heels of the Zimmerman verdict this isn’t just completely inappropriate commentary, it’s deliberate race-baiting on the part of your “NY Times” colleague.
Yes racism against young black men may still be a real problem in our society. However the George Zimmerman trial isn’t an example of that, and by equating Trayvon Martin to all the young black men he is talking about, including his own sons, he basically called all young black males out as malevolent thugs.
He probably didn’t think that’s what he was doing, though.
That’s the problem with race-baiters, not very logical people, even with a NY Times pedigree on their resume.
Leary’s scenario does not apply and was not the truth of the Zimmerman case.
He’s following the Crump CR*P (invented, fictional, incendiary) narrative.
Zimmerman is not at all the ‘great satan stalker’ that Crump invented.
GZ is a decent human being who takes up for people of every race who have been hurt by criminals of every race.
If he had done a better job in helping to change the culture so that YBM were seen as productive members of society, maybe that would make a difference. He has had decades to decry the likes of Sharpton and Jackson. (NB: I didn’t check to see if he wrote against them…if so, I will alter my opinion somewhat.)
Heck, even Farrakhan, in spite of his clearly racist approach, works to help YBM become productive and integral parts of their communities.
But when we see so many YBM in jail, with apologists for parents(and other leaders), rather than parents…the end is pretty clear.
Let’s not forget that the government has for decades played its part as well, including the diminishing role of the male parent in so many families when it has become clear that a stronger male role is required.
“So many YBB in jail” You get that sort of thing in prohibition regimes:
Endocannabinoids
And for the record – GZ was NEVER guilty.
You continue to exhibit extreme denial about the effects of drugs, including marijuana.
Farrakhan’s ideology is toxic, so his ‘help’ will be also.
Farrakhan decries the Constitution and Bill of Rights and advocates black street justice. He believes blacks are exempt from white man law.
Farrakhan’s ideology is a combination of vengeance, racist hate and Islam.
Farrakhan = NBPP
I would not think he does much to help the community situation. He is in Chicago. Where is the worst crime and the most illegal gun-related deaths? Chicago.
You know, life is not fair. To any of us. I hate it that decent black men are feared, just as I hate it that decent Muslims are often painted as terrorists. But both communities could do better in policing their own.
How many decades are civilized people going to have to wait for blacks and muslims to “police their own”?
Perhaps decent young black men would be MUCH LESS FEARED if the black community affirmatively and conclusively disavowed sociopaths like TM (rather than equating them to their own law-abiding sons like Mr. Leary did) and the dysfunctional family & sub-cultural structures which are largely responsible for the creation of these sociopaths.
Where are the critics, in the black community, of Rachel Jeantel? She’s an ILLITERATE teenager. ILLITERATE.
No the Martins are NOT representative of the black community as a whole. They ARE representative of the criminal/sociopathic/welfare bludging subset of which everyone, including law-abiding blacks, seems to be very fearful.
When the “intelligentsia” like Mr. Leary insists on being apologists for sociopathy and family and cultural dysfunction, it will tend to be perpetuated.
So they need to stop.
Well, not necessarily ‘police’, but at least stop the denial, stop defending and stop despising anyone, black or white, who questions or tells the truth black ghetto/gangsta/lawless/immoral culture or works hard to leave that culture.
Clarification:
Well, not necessarily ‘police’, but at least stop the denial *about the culture and the kind of people it produces*, stop defending *the culture and the thuggish lifestyles*, and stop despising anyone, black or white, who questions or tells the truth black ghetto/gangsta/lawless/immoral culture or works hard to leave that culture.
Lets not mix blacks and muslims. Black is a race, muslim is an ideology. Its wrong to judge and stereotype a person based on the color of skin. But when people share an ideology, thats a different story, especially if that ideology spreads intolerance.
Another one for whom justice won’t be done until it’s done their way.
I don’t see how you can call that a thoughtful perspective when at the end all he did was repeat the same dishonest narrative the media and the Trayvon supporters spew. He seems to have raised his children to be law abiding, productive members of society, and that is what will keep them from attacking someone they feel disrespected by, and that will keep them from being killed in self defense by someone else.
Awwwwwhhhh. That so much reminds me of Elvis’s Ghetto.
Can’t wait for JayZ’s version. Beyonce could do the backing vocals.
You and your sons should all buy handguns, get concealed carry licenses, and report back if anything happens – just ask anyone here! (Sarc)
BTW, it is illegal for a LEO, and certainly a security guard, to stop any of you for anything other than an investigation of a (suspected) crime. So if one of the two tries to stop your family without that justification, ignore him/her and enjoy your day as an American citizen protected by the constitution. You should probably record any confrontation on video.
If George Zimmerman was a police officer, he likely would have been legally entitled to stop and frisk Trayvon Martin. The standard you’re searching for is “reasonable suspicion.” It comes from the Terry case.
LOL! Why post that crap? A police officer has no right to stop and frisk a teenager walking home in the rain. A police officer would need to be investigating a crime to do that. This is not the former Soviet Union nor Nazi Germany, this is America. It is illegal to stop a law abiding citizen in this country and “ask for his/her papers,” much less to frisk them! Were have you been???
You should learn a little bit about the law. Terry gives a police officer the right to stop a citizen upon reasonable suspicion and then perform a “Terry pat” if they reasonably believe that person to be “armed and dangerous.” Here, the burglaries in the neighborhood and Mr. Martin’s gesture’s toward his waistband would almost certainly meet the standard.
Feel free to continue arguing your emotions though.
“Here, the burglaries in the neighborhood and Mr. Martin’s gesture’s toward his waistband”
AND the BULGING Watermelon drink in his pocket “would almost certainly meet the standard.
Walking close to occupied buildings at night without apparent purpose might even constitute probable cause to question Mr. Martin about his purpose and actions. In Florida failure to explain your actions can lead to arrest.
Here is the text of FL 856.021(2)
(2) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstance makes it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself or herself and explain his or her presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer did not comply with this procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person is true and, if believed by the officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.
FL 856.031 Arrest without warrant.—Any sheriff, police officer, or other law enforcement officer may arrest any suspected loiterer or prowler without a warrant in case delay in procuring one would probably enable such suspected loiterer or prowler to escape arrest.
The townhouses in that community are owned by the occupants. That means when trademark cut through thier yards, he was trespassing.
That is simply not true.
There are plenty of Australians who have been stopped and questioned for one reason or another when in the USA. Yes I can tell some stories about those occasions but they happened to other people, not my family!
In expressing your sentiments, you accurately define the reason that TM chose to confront GZ. Yes, up to that point, TM was totally innocent. This changed the moment he chose to express his displeasure with GZ for being followed by striking him in the nose. Yes, YBM are followed and profiled every day, unfairly. But choosing a physical altercation is not the answer, as TM discovered in the last moments of his young life.
“…been stopped by police and “security” people on several occasions for being where some questioned they should be (as I was more than 40 years ago). We have been followed, stared at, met with apprehension, held under suspicion, and disrespected…”
Yeah? Me, too. I am a big, old-ish (very fashionably), white guy. I’ve been stripped down to my skivvies at an airport, missing my flight.
I’ve been called a “terrorist” because of my association with the TEA Party, a group so innocuous they make the Boy Scouts look like bombers.
I’ve had a Vice-President lie about me, and tell people I have nothing but respect for that I “want to put them back in chains”. I served my nation in uniform to break chains off of people. I would again.
I could go on…
Rags,
Yea Tea Party!!!
Bravo, Ragspierre!
This isn’t “thoughtful”, it’s offensive.
Since Martin was shot, how many YBM have been shot and killed in cities like Chicago, Detroit, N.O. and D.C.? Why are those lives less important than this one? (and make no mistake, that is exactly what this screed does, it holds Trayvon Martin up as a martyr for the only reason that he was killed by someone who was NOT black)
Kosmograd quoted an “esteemed” colleague …
… it continues to be open- season on young black men in this gun-crazy country …
Esteemed one, check the statistics on just who is shooting up whom the majority of the time. Who is shooting young black men most of the time. Black on black crime is the subject y’all can’t talk about, right?
AND look at the stats on the “gun craziest” precincts in the nation.
LESS killing than in that Xanadu of the North, Chicago.
As gun possession by people has gone up, gun crimes have gone down.
AND the NRA was an ally with the NAACP in resisting the disarming of the black man under Jim Crow.
Where you been, brother…???
I live near Kennesaw GA, where there is a city ordinance requiring each household to have a gun. It’s symbolic, never enforced, and possibly unconstitutional. However, I fully support the sentiment behind the law, even if it may be non-enforceable.
There are two relevant statistics about Kennesaw that I believe account for its very low violent crime rate (which is truly remarkable, given its proximity to the shooting gallery of NW Atlanta). The first is the high rate of firearm ownership and concealed carry permits (Georgia Weapons Licenses) in the community.
The other statistic may or may not be obvious, depending on your point of view. I would imagine that opinions about its relevance would divide roughly along the same line that separates separates the respective supporters of TM and those of GZ.
That is a load of tripe, and it’s time for someone in the black community to stand up and admit that they have a problem. 93% of blacks murdered in America were killed by other blacks. There are a lot of very successful and well adjusted blacks in our country, but there is a subculture that leads to violence and death routinely. Every day 26 black people are murdered. 25 of them are murdered by other blacks. WAKE UP!!
I could see his point up to ‘That young man..’ after that the reason why many people are apprehensive and stereotype is a self-inflicted, and perpetuating cultural reality that will NEVER change until two things happen:
1) Those of the Ilk of Al Sharpton stop bringing up racism and
2) Folk become accountable and responsible in raising their children. If you can’t or don’t want to raise a child, then don’t procreate.
Non of this would have happened if TM was raised with even ONE shred of respect as a value, even if he was stalked.
It is also sad that good, God-fearing, patriotic White folk are smeared as racists just because they are White.
There are reasons for a LEO to stop drivers other than color. My sister, when in her 60’s, chose to drive a fire engine red Trans AM. She was frequently stopped, having broken no law, simply because of that car. She was amused when they saw her and stammered about why they stopped her. My sons were frequently stopped because of the cars they drove, not because they were white Hispanics. Has anyone done a study on how many tickets are issued to white people by black LEO’s? Paranoia can destroy people’s logical thought pattern.
Some points about all of this from the cheap seats way up in the rarified air of the peanut gallery, more or less at random:
1. Prof. Jacobson thanks for sponsoring “Legal Insurrection” clearly an island of sanity amidst a roiling see of media insanity.
2. Branca you did a great job on this one [cue: obligatory LoSD book plug LOL j/k]
I especially liked your snotty, pungent, irreverent but true & funny tweets in response to some of the more delusional commentary by various media Javerts.
Your various relevant citations to the applicable law, procedural issues, and the facts of the case were somewhat distracting since what does the law and facts have to do with a three ring circus? Next time please supply popcorn and cotton candy. (j/k great job on law/facts/legal procedure). On the other hand Corey’s theme music whenever she holds a press conference from now on should be “Entrance of the Gladiators.”
3. Obviously the real Javert here is Corey, and we know who the Thenardiers are too. This entire story is worthy of Hugo or Dickens.
4. Actually scratch that the literary analog is obviously Kafka since this entire thing was so Kafkaesque.
5. Was I imagining things or did Corey actually repeatedly commit actionable defamation against GZ during her press conference immediately AFTER the verdict??? Continuing her campaign of character assassination in the media immediately after the acquittal seems like yet another unwise choice on her part….
…oh well out of the mouths of babes…wait she’s not much of a babe is she? She looks like Linda Tripp combined with Jabba the Hut.
Oh well good times.
*blush*
And thanks for the book plug. 🙂 All my coverage was possible only because I could justify it to my wife through the book sales. Absent that support, would have had to do real work to pay the bills. 🙂
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
Linda Tripp was a heroine, regardless of her former appearance. Angela Corey is ugly on the inside and you can’t fix that with a little plastic surgery.
Well said!
So, if Angelo Corey were young and pretty, all would be forgiven, right?
How exactly does the civil immunity MOM mentioned work? I know it’s automatic from a stand your ground hearing, is that also true from a regular self-defense acquittal?
Yes. Zimmerman is immune from civil suits. His only remaining danger is the DOJ maliciously prosecuting him for civil rights violations and no limit niggas trying to cap his ass.
Al Sharpton (looking like an emaciated evil scarecrow)when interviewed on CNN after the verdict and asked about OMara’s statement that they were now acting to prevent civil suits against George, said (not that you can rely on anything he says) that civil suit already filed, and that couldn’t be blocked.
Is he full of crap as usual?
Yep. He’s an idiot. There is nothing that cannot be poured out of court.
If they really were that stupid, could Zimmerman’s team, which would include that IT analyst who is now out of a job, be able to bring up the details that are on the phone?
I would not think that $ybrina Fulton would want to go there!!
Well, so much for that “emotional” all-woman jury, with its aversion to “icky guns”.
Well done, ladies.
Some of us women actually own “icky guns”!
My apologies, ladies!
Well it DID take them three days to work through their feelings.
LOL. I think they were just smart. If an almost all-white jury had come back with self defense in just a few hours, I think there would have been an even bigger pushback.
This way they can say they took their time and carefully considered all the evidence (which it sounds like they did).
I added “running, ducking, and grinning…” to my above comment but enclosed it in less than-greater than symbols so the site thought it was HTML and ate it.
They appeared to take not only their deliberations seriously, but also took the wisest approach to reaching their verdict. Coming back too soon, for either side might, have meant that they “rushed” their decisions, giving the other side cause for complaint and disgruntlement. The time they did give in deliberations preempts this kind of attack.
you forgot the /sarc
I always believed in those ladies. (Partly because of the excellent voir dire…)
Well, and my daughters would hurt me…
“Go West Young Man” and have some nice ice cream cones with your no doubt lovely daughters as a daddy day out with them treat.
Be sure not to take a photo though. It might be Miss-understood.
Crump was counting on the female jury and O’Mara himself expressed serious reservations about it in a CNN interview at the end of the week.
There was every reason for concern and O’Mara addressed that concern by doing exactly what I and others said he must do:
Explicate the law unambiguously and rigorously instruct the jury, leaving it no room for an emotional judgment that would be quickly seen to be absurd on the facts.
O’Mara’s closing was a masterpiece, the highlights being the four minutes of silence and the checkmate point that Trademark was killed in the commission of a violent felony.
You poor thing. You were wrong and you still can’t come to terms with it.
At least MarkS apologized. I won’t hold my breath waiting for your “I’m sorry”.
I read that the jury requested the clothing exhibit. It must have brought home to them that TM was a big person and not the little boy in those photos. It is to the credit of the jury that they were so thorough before delivering that verdict.
I thought there might have been 2 holdouts but I wonder if they had come to their decision first and then worked through why they came to that decision. Unless they speak we will not know.
I posted above without thinking. this should have gone in the general comments instead of the Atlanta specific one above. mea culpa, fiends, mea culpa.
and good sunday morning to all.
i’m very happy for GZ. he’s had a long road to follow to get here. unfortunately, only now does the real trial for his life begin. I pray to Almighty God that there won’t soon be another mother grieving – the Zimmermans have had a rough year as it is with this. it’s absurd enough that the baiters are pursuing a wrongful death claim and civil rights violation (in a non civil rights trial) and attempting to persuade the DOSJ to go along with it, but not once – let me repeat that, NOT ONCE – have I heard any of the prominent baiter leaders express a concern for GZ’s safety. would be nice to hear a call for dignity and restraint here.
now here’s a funny thought: you’re a member of the DOSJ. you get wrapped up in the middle of this trial, which you know deep in your heart should never have even made it to a courtroom. multiple guess. do you:
a) risk alienating the black community who are following a false narrative? which you fomented early on.
b) risk alienating the Hispanic community to appease the black community? right at a point when immigration is a hot point too.
c) risk alienating the women voters because you vociferously disagree with their (jury) decision, and tiptoe around misogynistic questions of their mental, emotional, or maternal instinct integrity?
ready? go!
Hmmm …. wonder if the IRSS will be cranking up audits for certain female jurors ….
Maybe, maybe not, but GZ had better keep his books in order.
Rest well, Professor Valiant and Intrepid!
Rest to rise and fight again.
I think I’m gonna save Cruella Corey’s acceptan…defeat speech as an example of…..something. Never seen anything like it. Love her makeup, and pearls, and earrings, and bracelets, and dress, and ….
Wonder how Bernie likes working for her. Course, she did get him an enhanced pension
As if she was accepting an Oscar, egads!
Oh well let the light shine upon her and the rest of them.
SPIT
I wonder if that cross she was wearing was burning her flesh.
Jesus is crying.
They tried to make me forget America I said NO NO NO.
This is far from over.
Let them sow the seeds.
I’m afraid of what our government will now do to Zimmerman. This president better be careful because he can either inflame race wars or help prevent them from occurring. Please give us your thoughts, thanks.
In my cynical view of Obama, I don’t think he’d mind a little chaos!
I remember the beginning.
I remember telling people to calm down, this is America, and we have a good system. I remember saying not to use the term “justice” in connection with it.
I remember telling people O’Mara was a good defender for Zimmerman.
I remember defending Corey in the early days as a competent, effective, well-regarded prosecutor who was a pro, acting within the scope of her office, and pointing out that many prosecutions are prompted by politics…or the expressed will of the people, put another way.
I remember working to not become a partisan in one camp or the other. And the love some of you gave me…
I remember some here saying Zimmerman could never possibly get a fair trial in America. There could never be a fair, unbiased jury after the press debauch we all saw and deplored.
I remember some here saying Zimmerman, once in custody, would never live to stand trial.
I remember some here openly advising Zimmerman to flee America, and seek asylum as a political refugee.
And I do remember being told that O’Mara was not up to the task, was weak, and that I was lying about my profession as a trial lawyer.
I am slow to some parties, but I get there eventually when the evidence is in, and benefits of doubt are exhausted.
I was wrong about Corey, perhaps for the right reasons, but she has shown herself to be what a lot of you judged her to be initially. Same with her team. They should be targeted by their peers and every State organ that has oversight over their offices, and they should be punished.
I said Corey was no Nifong. I was correct in that, I think. I think she is much worse, much more dangerous. Nifong was largely (my impression, not an expert) an incompetent, careless, mean, boob. Corey is not incompetent, she is calculating, driven, and good at what she does. She has no more ethics than does Crump, but vastly more power. She DOES have a much greater level of political support than Nifong, and she is a woman. Anyone who supports her after this trial should be brought down politically. If she is not driven from her position by the authorities or her peers, the voters of Florida should do it.
As glad as I am for George Zimmerman (who DOES, remember, still face some crap from Corey), I am MUCH more grateful that our nation is still…even in a very dark time…a place where this outcome, with this people, was something I could predict with confidence.
Now, maybe we should join in militating to have the State drop all proceedings remaining against Georgie and his wife…
I do remember you not believing a state would prosecute politically.
IMO ROmney & the RNC told Scott to get it off the table at any price.
Read it again, Banned. I know that prosecutions are prompted by politics. They always have been.
So is the passage of law.
Like a lot of other things, it is kind of a matter of degrees, scope, and extreme. Yes?
I also remember you had the hissy fit about GZ. Not being an honest person & one that you would not represent.
You really said bad things about him even that he had let you down.
I shall think of a suitable song for you to karaoke to redeem yourself.
What about Achey Brachy Heart?
Yeah, you are typically full of shit.
I pointed out the truth that Zimmerman and his wife had both lied in court.
I also said that there is a cardinal rule with me; my clients are not allowed to lie to me, or to the court. They can tell me anything…regardless of how damning…and ESPECIALLY if it is damning…but they cannot lie to me.
I would have fired them, as I have clients who lie.
O’Mara had his legs cut out from under him, and had to do some fancy stepping to regain his standing.
Remember…???
I don’t necessarily consider the defense fund as being their personal funds that they had control over…ergo, no lie. Someone else was controlling those funds.
Yah, Liz, I know all the excuses, apologies, and sympathetic BS from the time.
I also know they knew damn good and well what they were doing, as shown by the jailhouse tapes. They tried to be cute, and they got caught.
They lied. (See the period?)
When they did, they hurt themselves VERY badly.
Rags, you are right on point except for on tiny little detail:
George Zimmerman did NOT get a fair trial.
He was acquitted because there was no case, no case at all. But the whole shenanigan was far, very far from fair.
^^^^^ This ^^^^^
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
Amen to that!
What proceedings do GZ and his wife still face from Corey?
Mrs. Zimmerman faces a perjury allegation.
Given the antecedents here, I think it appropriate to put pressure on Florida to just drop the matter.
The affadidavit drawn up against Shellie Zimmerman is a document full of perjury.
A chunk of what she actually said was removed.
Comparison of her statement via the court reporter and what is in the affadavit should have been enough for a judge to dismiss action against her.
Shellie told the truth specific to the question asked. BDLR deliberately did not follow up on her answer. He did in fact spring a trap. The whole thing was deceitful where the Persecution was concerned.
Yes, August 21 court appearance for Shellie Zimmerman on the perjury charge. I
I wonder if that might be the same day Corey, BDLR, Mantei, and Guy are appearing in court to be arraigned?
One can only hope.
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
please let us know who supports her (besides the Governor) and we will make sure to let them know we are donated to their adversaries because of Corey.. Money talks 😉
http://rightreactions.blogspot.com/2013/07/just-thought.html
Thanks to this site, and unlike the MSM, we were fully informed to the facts of this trial and because of such, this verdict was not a shock. This speaks to the importance of separating fact from fiction and rhetoric from reality.
I predict that Obama will nominate Angela Corey to head the DHS. With her long history of racism and incompetence, she would be a perfect fit.
On no, you didn’t just say that. No, really. Do NOT give the Obamster any ideas. Take it back. This instant. 🙂
Well the true racists are out this morning screaming hysterically for the DOJ to file “civil rights” charges against Zimmerman.
They just will not stop.
Remember when they just wanted the facts to come out and a trial?
They, as always, only want their “facts” to come out.
I am completely disgusted that Angela Corey is involved in America’s criminal justice system. She is a reckless, unethical, race-baiting liar.
In other words…a modern politician.
I don’t blame Corey. I blame Rick Scott. The Sanford police and the local State’s Attorney were not investigating one of their own. There was no conflict of interest. There was no legal reason for a special prosecutor. It was all politics, and poor politics at that.
I blame Corey–prosecutorial misconduct. The sanctions hearing is scheduled, according to West/MOM’s presser last night. The fired IT guy is Exhibit A. He should be vindicated and sue and be restored afterwards too.
She is also prepared to try a 13 year old Hispanic as an adult on Murder 1 charges.
This was a howling and unholy defeat for the Left — a Narrative was damaged. They don’t tolerate their Narratives being damaged. Now we get to watch the most important practical difference between the Left and the Right, the key to the Left’s social supremacy in all its awesome glory — how they handle defeat. That is, they don’t. The Left NEVER loses in their own minds. In fact, they take losses as opportunities. This isn’t confidence or a brave imperviousness, but pathology. Still, it’s very impressive. They are ALWAYS on the offensive, and NEVER more than when they lose. They will attack now with redoubled energy. They will seek not merely to repair the Narrative but to make it stronger so they don’t lose the next time.
The Right could learn some things from this. The first thing they should learn is to anticipate this response from the Left and be ready on all social fronts to confront this new wave of raging energy and determination and NOT permit the Narrative to get back on its feet.
But we won’t. We’ll be respectful of the parties involved. We’ll call for peace and reconciliation. We’ll be grateful that we dodged a bullet and that the system proved beyond the reach of the vicious madness of the mob. For now. Meawhile, the Left will set about stoking the mob’s madness, and searching for the new George Zimmerman.
True about the left. The liberal mind really is a mental disease. These people are nuts. As an example, look at the pro-abortion crowd in Austin. Many of them saying, Hail Satan, Hail Satan. Can you imagine that? They really have gone over-the-top. Then carrying jars of poo and pee, having tampons, etc., and going to through at lawmakers. Total idiots!
Evil, probably, certainly the leaders such as Sharpton, unhinged more often than not, yes. But not idiots. Evil can and often is clever.
This was not a left/right issue.
The reason that I say that with confidence is that there are plenty of people who are leftists and who saw this as a justice issue. A good example is Jeralyn Merritt.
In fact Jeralyn’s site is one where I also went to get a perspective on the case, one that was not tainted by conspiracy theories.
This case was about justice and it brought together a disparate group of people who wanted to see justice done.
On the other hand, there are agitators who follow extreme left wing politics who were defeated by this verdict.
I wonder if any legal eagles (or beagles, or dobermans, or rottweilers) who visit Legal Insurrection – most certainly including Messrs. Branca and Jacobson – could weigh in on the issue of the possible defamation liability of prosecutors who continue their trash talk about Zimmerman post-acquital.
Wish I could help, but my legal expertise is rather narrowly limited to self-defense law. I could speak generally about defamation, but not in any way that would be informative to this specific context.
I’m sure, however, that there must be a lawyer around here who _does_ possess relevant expertise. Just swing a stick. 🙂
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
Around here, when you swing a stick, you hit either hit and crack open a pinata or the Texas Rangers hit a home run.
Either way, it is a wonderful occasion.
Thanks for your response. FWIW (and don’t everyone say “not much!” at once), my non-professional answer would be: As much as I’d LIKE there to be such liability on the part of Angela and her co-thugs for their statements re Zimmerman during that trash-talking post-acquittal press conference, there likely isn’t because:
1) They based their interpretation of Zimmerman’s conduct on publicly available evidence. (The converse: They didn’t preface their trash-talk against Zimmerman with the equivalent of “If you knew what WE know…” or “If you had the information WE had…”
2) They get cover from the denial of a directed verdict from the trial judge, which means (falsely, in my view) that reasonable people can disagree on whether the evidence shows beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman’s conduct met the elements of depraved heart murder.
But I kind of hope I’m wrong.
There ought, at minimum, to be bar sanctions against prosecutors who indulge in that kind of public trash-talk against a defendant who has just been acquitted on all counts.
OK, I guess I’m one of those you hit with the proverbial swinging dead cat (and, boy, I wanna tell you THAT gets old fast for everybody, the dead cat included).
Generally, there is an attorney immunity allowing us to say AWFUL stuff about people involved in litigation. If there weren’t, you can see we’d be quite limited in what we could assert without looking over our shoulders for our own “liability bus” roaring up on us. Our interests would conflict with our client’s interest.
Now that is the general doctrine, and there is case-law (you knew this was coming, right?) setting out some exceptions, starts, stops, yad-yad.
Long to short: last night, Corey and PARTICULARLY Bad Bernie were still operating under their immunity. That will last a while longer.
After that…regardless of where a defaming lie comes from…if you republish it, you are liable, too.
And there is and always will be some areas where you can say crappy stuff about Zimmerman, and no liability will accrue (i.e., “wannabe cop”).
What about others? Dyson was on Face the Nation yammering on that it is a race thing, when the FBI has determined otherwise. Can he and other like commentators be sued for defamation? Any statements after the acquittal would be defamatory. The media smear campaign continues.
Hard to know without a lot more information.
First, you can express a bad opinion about someone that is not defaming.
I think that Pres. Snoop-Dog is a sick, narcissistic Collectivist puke. I am free to express that opinion, and it does not defame Mr. Obama.
One can say they think Zimmerman was motivated by race. I dunno, without a whole lot more information, if that is legal defamation.
Part of the problem is that Zimmerman is now really a public figure, and, thus an actual malice standard most likely applies. Not only would he have to prove the falseness of their claims, but also essentially that they knew them to be false. Not easy to do.
On the flip side, since the trial is over, they cannot really be speaking as government employees speaking within the scope of their employment, and so they are probably not immune from suit.
I am a civil attorney (mostly personal injury). I’m not a defamation expert, but I do know a fair amount. During a trial, all testimony and words (whether from a witness or lawyer) are privileged and cannot give rise to liability. Outside the courtroom, a person can be liable for their public statements. However, mere expression of an opinion will not be construed as defamation. Also, if the comment is in reference to a matter of public concern, the plaintiff must prove the additional elements of falsity and intent, usually negligence (plaintiff must prove malice if they are a public figure).
There’s an additional question about whether George Zimmerman is a “public figure.” Public figures who sue for defamation, like politicians, must meet higher standards to prevail. However, courts typically hold that a public figure must willingly enter the spotlight; clearly George Zimmerman did not voluntarily become a public figure. But there’s certainly no denying that he is well-known by the public at this point.
You have a JD and yet you posted this a few minutes back:
ProfessionalSpectator | July 14, 2013 at 10:16 am
If George Zimmerman was a police officer, he likely would have been legally entitled to stop and frisk Trayvon Martin. The standard you’re searching for is “reasonable suspicion.” It comes from the Terry case.
Was it a mail order JD?
You’re an ignorant fool. Read Terry v. Ohio and get back to me.
No I am not an ignorant fool, but you may be… I read it, and you suck at law!
Quote:
“This reasonable suspicion must be based on “specific and articulable facts” and not merely upon an officer’s hunch. ”
Enjoy your trip home from the store later today, while you are walking in the rain, especially when the nice police officer stops you, asks for your “papers,” and then frisks you. Outrageous!
The articulable facts that you reference are present in this case…Burglaries in the neighborhood, outside conditions, gestures toward a waistband. Searches have been upheld by the Supreme Court on much less. In one case, an individual adjusting their walking path away from a police officer was enough to justify a stop and frisk. In New York, cases are currently under review because officers have been stopping people under this standard simply because they live in a certain area of high drug traffic.
Feel free to try insulting me though. It won’t change the fact that you’re absolutely clueless.
Besides being an obnoxious troll, you’re also ignorant. See Terry v. Ohio
Why not just drive on by, eh?
Thank you for posting that. This DriveBy character clearly has no knowledge of the law. But that apparently doesn’t stop him from commenting about it…
You really need to read the case, all of it! The “Terry Stop” is only permitted when Officer Safety is of concern. The officer must have reasonable suspicion that a suspect is armed with a weapon and has committed a crime or is about to commit a crime – emphasis added to: “The officer must have reasonable suspicion that a suspect is armed.”
Law, hell. He doesn’t even follow current events.
“Stop, talk, and frisk” is a BIG deal in the press these days, and the Collectivists in Nuevo Ork are all in arms over the fact it is MOSTLY practiced WRT minorities.
(The minority neighborhoods LOVE it, however, since it IS getting thugs off the steet.)
Hahaha. I’ve taken entire classes on the subject and its modern implications/applications. You spent a few minutes on Wikipedia and now think you understand something. It’s honestly quite comical. People like you are the reason why people like me will always be a necessity.
Shouldn’t you be at a Justice for Trayvon rally right about now?
I think that too much is being made of how reasonable is the officer’s belief that the suspect be armed. Sure, it is mentioned in Terry, but many, if not most, courts seem to almost uniformly accept the officers’ discretion here. It appears to be policy in a lot of departments around the country.
Now, in the case of TM, he was wearing a baggy hoodie. One of the reasons for wearing such by criminals and thugs is that it easily covers up weapons, esp. guns stuck in waistbands. So, if he had been wearing a tight fitting jogging outfit, the police might have had a harder time justifying a frisk. But he wasn’t, but was rather wearing clothes often selected to conceal weapons.
Possibly making this worse for TM, he apparently threatened GZ by slipping his hand down his waistband, under his hoodie, pretending to be armed (and yes, he likely wouldn’t have done this with police, who likely would have drawn on him if he had).
Of course it was a reasonable suspicion. Maybe more importantly, it was able to be articulated. GZ saw TM slowly walking around on the wet lawn between the walk and a house,possibly looking into the windows, in the rain. In short, it looked like TM was casing the house for burglary, right by where they had recently had such, and in a community that had experienced a rash of such. Most of this is on GZ’s NEN call, and the rest oink his reenactment the next day. That is more than suspicious enough to legally justify the police stopping TM and asking him what he was doing. Note the importance of being able to articulate the grounds for being suspicious – it is no longer a question of intuition or hunch, isn’t really subjective, but rather becomes much more objective. Which is why police don’t testify about their instincts, but rather list the things that aroused their suspicion, and why.
So, once you get over the hurdle of reasonable (articulatable) suspicion (which GZ likely did), the police can stop and question someone. At that point, that person can typically be frisked for anything that could be a weapon. That is the purpose of Terry – officer safety. Once they could justify stopping and questioning TM, they could frisk him for their own safety.
I respectfully disagree. A police Officer, Detective Serino, testified that if he were George and saw what George saw he might suspect that Treyvon lived at the house that he was standing in front of and Det. Serino would not do a damn thing that night, Det. Serino would continue on down the road.
So much for reasonable suspicion.
Regarding frisking Treyvon, well, first we have to get an actual police officer to even care about how Treyvon was behaving or where he was standing that night…
I have to endorse what you’re saying about seeing suspicious behavior. In all of GZ’s calls, he reports suspicious behavior or circumstances (the unusually open garage late at night when that wasn’t typical for that neighbor, and the car was in the garage). It is always the dispatcher that brings up race. Also, not all of GZ’s calls were played in court. I bet you didn’t know that he made more calls that were about suspicious behavior by white and Hispanic people than about Black people. It was a diverse neighborhood and the people GZ called about were equally diverse.
Once again, you (DriveBy) demonstrate your ignorance as to how the law applies. What Detective Serino “would have done” is wholly irrelevant. All that matters is whether the facts as George Zimmerman saw them would have allowed him to approach Trayvon Martin under the standard. It’s objective. It probably would have satisfied the standard.
It’s all actually quite irrelevant at this point considering (a) George Zimmerman is not a police officer and (b) he has already been acquitted. If you recall, this whole discussion started because YOU (DriveBy) incorrectly stated the law as to public searches and seizures. At this point, your lack of knowledge has been established beyond a reasonable doubt.
In response to the ignorant Driveby. Even if Serino testified that way, this would be the testimony of a stranger in the community.
In this particular case GZ knew who occupied the house. He would have reasonable suspicion that the person looking at the house did not belong there and was not an occupant of that place.
Thus everything already related goes against what you are saying.
DB, for the most part your comments have been reasonable. This is not. Please stop. You’re exposing yourself as someone who is ignorant of the law. Your premise is that a crime must be committed before an officer can stop someone. That premise is plainly wrong, as any reading of the law will tell you.
I think he’s too busy trying to blindly argue to realize his own premise.
Good morning everyone. The ladies on the jury really came through this in shining colors, right? I’m impressed with them. Lots worried about the jury being all female, but I started thinking about that, it could have worked for him instead of against him. For one thing I’ve heard lots of women taking up for Zimmerman, and it being self-defense. I’m one of them. If I had been on that jury, you can know that I would have voted for self-defense. I know in my Bible study group that the women in it would have voted self-defense.
Yeay, kittycat! I urged trusting the gyno-American jury. I kept pointing out that there are nurses, a security guard, a DV vic, and a victim of crime on that jury, and they live in the area and know the problems. The jury instructions were great when it came to not deciding based on emotions or who you like or don’t like or even how you feel about the attorneys. I applaud them for following the jury instructions and taking great time and care. This is a victory for gyno-Americans.
Though glad “the system worked”…kinda…sorta..
I for one will not celebrate. In fact, I’m thoroughly disgusted.
I put the acquittal of George Zimmerman on the same plane as my truck starting in the morning. It’s supposed to.
In the Age of Obama, there is a perilous road ahead, and I’m afraid the Zimmerman trial is just another brick in the road.
Post 9/11, in the Age of Obama, it is the official position of this government that because the highjackers were muslim, muslims are now “hands off”.
Profiling.
The root of all evil.
So the stage is set, the road being paved as we speak.
If you see suspicious persons engaged in suspicious activity, you better hope they’re not black. If so, you’ll be inclined to wait until after you’re robbed, raped, or murdered to call police….
….lest you be charged with crime. An evil crime. Profiling.
Similar feeling of unease here, too. I suspect Andrew didn’t include a chapter in his book about offing all witnesses, but might have to down the road.
None of the legal and political mess would have happened if GZ had just kept his mouth shut. Almost all of the testimony against GZ were the words he spoke being twisted and misinterpreted by the prosecution. If he keeps his mouth shut, then his lawyer gets to control the narrative.
As I pointed out many moons ago, if you are involved in a self defense shooting, call 911 immediately and articulate the facts; I just shot someone who was trying to rob me. I’m at 5th and Vine. Please send police and an ambulance immediately. I’m dressed in blue jeans, and red shirt and cowboy boots. I’m white, 5’10”, 175 pounds, grey hair.
When the police arrive, articulate the facts. He approached me with gun drawn, demanded I give him all my money. I threw my wallet over there (point to wallet) and when he turned to get it I drew my weapon and fired. I was afraid that he would shoot me after he robbed me. I am willing to go to the station, but I insist on retaining an attorney before you question me.
THEN SHUT UP. Tell the press to get lost. They are the enemy.
This is a great video – an attorney and a cop say why you shouldn’t talk to the police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
True! But O’Mara did set up the Hannity thing, that is the only thing (that I can think of right now) that I would say was not a good call by O’Mara. I can understand him using it to get a message out to the public and maybe have access to it at trial, but George did not do himself any favors with the “its God’s will” and “I would not do anything differently” responses. IMO
Not true. MOM advised GZ to not do the interview.
This blog did a great job, both in focusing on the Obama-fueled, race-bating “show trial” and in providing an objective summary of the trial and very insightful commentary.
Happily, Zimmerman is free and Barry’s divisive race-bating has been thwarted, at least for the moment.
However, in his never-ending narcissism and search for better polling, I expect Barry to announce soon that “if I had a son,he’d look a lot like Aaron Hernandez.”
Robert, George Zimmerman’s brother, is a very impressive young man.
Uncle Sam,
He’s a nice looking fellow, too! From when I’ve heard George speaking and now his brother, they sound educated to me and seem to be polite young men.
Its great that the women of the jury didn’t bend to the pressure of leftists in this country and used their minds not their hearts as the state wished b/c they had no evidence to bring charges in the 1st place. I sit on Scarborough Beach, RI, Prof Jacobson’s old neck of the woods as I write this, its a beautiful day and the justice system although wounded by political hacks and racial hucksters, still fuctions b/c of some brave Americans stood up and said “Not On My Watch”. Its great to be an American!
Did the NBP ever lift the bounty on GZ’s head?
And will they ever face charges for it?
Thought crimes, hate crimes.
Actual, factual crimes.
blurry..
I’d love to see this explored more thoroughly.
Am I the only one that thought the legal language that defines 2nd degree murder in Florida…um, odd?
George Zimmerman had bad thoughts about Martin.
Because it is impossible to know what was in Martin’s mind, or anybody’s mind. Zimmerman had no right to judge him.
Therefor, we can establish as fact what was in Zimmerman’s mind. Ill will, Depravity.
Attempting to explore the whole concept of who can see into who’s mind with regard to this case, will make your head spin. It’s precisely why it never should have been charged as Second degree Murder – typically reserved for people who know each other and commit the act in a “crime of passion” -but not calculated as in first degree.
He was charged with 2nd degree MURDER – to keep the narrative rolling, you know cause if he err…”Manslaughtered” TM it wouldn’t have squelched the baiters.
In the end, even with the justly verdict reached, they still have something to latch onto – Zimmerman got away with MURDER of a CHILD
“only God can see into a man’s heart”.
enter progressives….
“There is no God. However, we the super smart, flawless elites can and must see into the hearts of men…for the greater good.”
Florida odd? Heh. Consider that Gov Scott, Attorney General Bondi, and Special Prosecutor Corey are all “Republicans.” If I have any of that wrong, someone correct me, with evidence please.
Yes, they are all Republicans. I voted for Scott and Bondi. It’s no wonder that some are starting to call Republicans the “stupid party.” I think this case vividly demonstrates exactly that.
Starting? I’ve been saying that for more than 40 years.
Progessives can be in any party.
It is the same here in Australia. We have the left which is the ALP and then we have the Liberal-National Party which is not the Right because the Right actually are to the Right of Left of Centre, but they are pro-business. There are progressives in the Liberal Party just like there are Progressives in the ALP.
The same is true in your country. The Progressive in the Republican Party are the RINO.
i’d hate to think how many people those prosecutors have put away with the kind of tactics and the cheesy summations used in this case. whew!
This.
Stripped naked, laying bare, for all the world to see.
Will it be ignored?
No. Worse.
The liberal game of “opposites” will apply, due to the result.
The laws, procedures, and antics by the prosecution were waaay to “fair”, burden set waaay to high. Obstacles set before the prosecution to get an conviction in this case need to be revisited so this never happens again.
Via Insty-
JOHN ALTHOUSE COHEN ON FACEBOOK: “Prediction: the Zimmerman verdict will lead to amendments to penal codes across the country to make it easier for prosecutors to win convictions, causing even more blacks to be incarcerated.”
Given the numbers more than likely a disproportionate share of the defendants treated that way were young African-American men. That should be the outrage, not GZ and TM.
I had to watch MSNBC this morning – watching liberals heads explode with my Sunday morning coffee, yeah it’s sick but amusing nonetheless.
Apparently they can’t blame the all women jury – but they can blame the FL judicial system for only having 6 jurors instead of 12. That this system somehow prohibited a black from the jury – you know cause you could find an unbiased black juror for this trial in FL.
Never, ever be a masochist. Watching MSNBC surely had to be nauseating. I could hardly tolerate 15 min of FOX news (caught the morning crew with Chris Wallace), that was the end for me. 🙂
Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda told reporters that the case boiled down to a matter of “who was following who.”
—- —- —- —- —- —- —- —-
This is something that pisses me off.
Following somebody is not illegal, especially if you are reporting that person’s suspicious behavior to the police.
The case boils down to who had a legitimate fear of death or serious bodily injury.
It doesn’t even matter who started the fight as clearly stated by Florida Statute 776.041.
Is there a limit to the irresponsibility of these clowns?
Hey, Wall Street Journal just called to get some opinion quotes from me for a piece they’re doing on the Zimmerman trial. *blush*
Here’s my 15 minutes! Haha
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense
A well deserved 15mins, I might add.
The book is amazing – thank you for this great service
It is well deserved and we here all know that your view will be insightful. So enjoy that time you more than earned it.
Don’t forget to mention your book
They of all, should recognize talent and brains.
Here’s to bigger and better recognition, from everywhere..
Prof. Jacobson’s Legal Insurrection, and certainly your reporting, analysis and knowledgeable expert legal opinions on the Zimmerman case, give some of us hope that all is not lost in this country.
Careful, Andrew.
With notoriety comes scrutiny.
Producers from the Ralph Maddow Show may feel the need to uncover “the real Andrew Branca.
Curious…
Why did that make my flesh crawl…???
Andrew that is great news… now get cracking on producing that book!! ROFL 🙂
I forced myself – barely – to check out NPR’s coverage this morning. They had NAACP prez Ben Jealous on, who was spouting exactly what you’d expect. But I have to say, he seemed to be speaking by rote and without much passion, nor was the NPR interviewer laying it very thick either.
It sounded like the day after a big football game where the losing coach is hinting that a couple bad calls cost his team the victory, though the final score was 56-0.
I actually have found a couple of narratives interesting and at the same time scary. Rev Jackson was on somewhere(sorry did not not where maybe MSNBC)and he stated that do to the jury make-up…………….no blacks and wait for it……no men ok found the comment
Rev. Jesse Jackson speaks during a rally in Hart Plaza … Jackson said, “I think it was always a stretch, having, this is not a jury of his peers: six women, not one black, not one man. It never was a jury of his peers. I’m really challenged, in some sense, thinking about this jury.”
For some odd reason I thought that the jury of one’s peers had to do with the defendant in the case…………
It was then picked up on by the lawyer for the family and repeated on Face the Nation to Bob S. Although he did not use the Evans/Till comparison……which left me saying only Oy.
I cannot even speak to Chris Cuomo on CNN this morning and how that was addressed on there or Don Lemon last night speaking to Robert Zimmerman. They are so off in so many ways and so IMHO the narrative continues incorrectly.
Finally it seems that HLN is going to ride this till the wheels come off and them perhaps a bit longer on the rims………….there is not words for them either I guess maybe Nancy is upset she could not speak to someone and perhaps have them take their own life later…..sorry could not help myself.
I was so pleased last night and still am this morning but it seems once again we are going backwards to the asking of the DOJ to step in. If there had been a conviction they would not be asking for this and that tells me all I need to know.
Thanks for indulging me with my rant…………I really am pleased with the outcome I just wish others would be as gracious(for lack of a better word)as they would have wanted the other side to have been had he somehow been found other than Not Guilty.
Rev. Jesse Jackson Quote: “I’m really challenged, in some sense, thinking about this jury.”
My take is that Jesse Jackson is really challenged in all his thinking.
Persons such as mentioned, will always live in the past. THEY can’t seem to understand that this IS 2013 and as The One stated and blazoned:
Forward!
Present day massacres on a day to day basis and being taken as slaves by Islamists in their obvious heritage land of Africa. Crickets!
Present day inner city murders of the Black kind BY those same persons. Crickets!
I saw on a commercial that the next HLN trial doesn’t start until July 26, so they have some time to kill.
There’s talk about this going to the DoJ and then it being a civil rights lawsuit. This is just horrible. Here’s the thing, all conservatives, any people for George need to stand together as a huge group against the crazies.
First off, they can’t seem to hear any logic about all of this. They’re basing everything on emotion, which is extremely scary stuff. They have no reasoning abilities.
Yes I heard the Reverend Al (not-so) Sharp-ton claim that the FBI investigation had only been suspended – not closed.
I try never to say “never”. But that is just gassing, IMNHO.
There is nothing on which to hang a Federal action.
Oh, I had forgotten this from over a year ago. Do y’all remember hearing that TM had a bunch of women’s jewelry and also burglary tools?
Yes, I remember. And don’t forget, he also had two of the three ingredients needed to make Purple Drank and nude photos of an underage girl on his cell phone. Just pure evil. (Sarc.)
Please stop giving my post a Thumbs Up. Does anybody really care about candy/soda and a photo of his girlfriend? Unreal.
TM was underage and should not have pornography on his phone. The girl in the pornography was apparently very young.
the social media is rife with threats of murder and mayhem, not specific to george zimmerman. the threat level from certain parties, which shall remain unnamed is higher than the usual background levels.
assuming this proposition is correct, what are the ramifications regarding the law of self defense?
does one now have to wait until they are being beaten to an inch of their life to act?
have those that threaten murder and mayhem not lowered the bar of self defense.
this is a serious question and not just hyperbolic opinion
can one employ self defense by assuming that a significant group of mischievous youths (of unspecified race) approach with reckless actions that threaten anyone in their path?
has the black grievance industry and their handmaidens in the community and media just made it more likely that there will be more trayvon martins?
See, this is what is going on:
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/NAACP-justice-zimmerman-martin/2013/07/14/id/514930
NAACP Calls for Feds to Prosecute Zimmerman
I say it’s time to call all Americans with reasoning ability and fight this crap.
Andrew, we may be here fighting for Zimmerman for a long time. Is there a strong conservative legal organization that fights for conservative and civil rights? George has his rights, and he has the right of self-defense. I’m not sure that I worded all of that right, but maybe you understand what I’m talking about.
First, Mr. Branca and Professor Jacobson a mere thank you is not enough. LI was a great place to obtain information about this travesty without having to wade through a sea of race baiting kool-aid drinkers whose ignorance of the law was only surpassed by their rapid racism and denial of the same.
Second, I rarely am offended by someone wearing a cross, even those who appear to be wearing it to mock Christianity. Yesterday, Corey offended me. She is a vile, disgusting excuse for a lawyer and her wearing the cross was insulting.
Third, the prosecution press conference last night was the most self-serving and defamatory display of something so far beyond poor sportsmanship that words fail me.
I have a note for the Prosecution team:
Dear F’n punks known as the prosecution team (and I do mean that F’n punks as if I screamed it as loud as you did with all the vile evil hatred that you harbored within your own poisonous hearts.) Charges should never have been filed. You had no evidence. You never proved your case because you had no evidence. Thankfully, the jury did not buy screaming and emotional manipulation as a substitute for evidence.
So STFU and take your horrible evil hearts back into the cesspool of politically driven racism masquerading as concern you crawl out from before inflicting this absurdity upon poor Mr. Zimmerman and the justice system.
Fourth, a note to the lawyers for TM’s parents who were bouncing around the morning shows claiming they were going to push for civil rights violations to be brought against GZ.
Dear Asshats, BRING IT ON!!!!
Bring it on because every little piece of information about TM will be discoverable. The world will find out what a “no limit nigga” is a means. You will put on display for the world to see what a punk criminal was out walking the streets that night. Also your horrible parenting skills will also be brought.
Because I think it is about time for GZ to file a lawsuit against your sorry asses for the crimes of TM.
TM attacked GZ and was guilty or inflicting great bodily harm on him. TM had a million different options that night.
When the world finds out what a little monster was out walking the streets that night people will see that GZ was greatly restrained in not emptying his magazine into his sorry ass.
Fifth, to all of those kids and not so youthful miscreants (black, white, Hispanic, purple, green, rainbow) out walking the streets up to no good and thinking they are justified in inflicting their rage upon innocent citizens open your eyes. I am sorry you have such horrible parents and influences from society that you think your behaviors are acceptable. It isn’t. We all have a right to protect ourselves against your bad behavior.
Sorry, my very first post here and I accidentally downvoted you. Coffee hasn’t kicked in yet. I agree with your post– I found Corey’s cross to be insulting to Christians after all she’s done to persecute an innocent man. I loved it that someone asked her a question about Ben Kruidbos! Yes, let ’em bring on the civil suits– it’s ridiculous to have to endure all this, but people really should be made aware of the fact that Trayvon, at 17, was far from being the smiling 12 year old in the Hollister shirt.
I found Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson’s title of ‘reverend’ to be insulting. They call themselves men of the cloth while calling for the lynching of an innocent man.
While I agree with you, I suggest you look up “blood libel”. It was a pretty common practice at one time.
Kudos to Andrew Branca and Professor Jacobson. Really well done. Your coverage was magnificent.
Yeah it was pro Zimmerman, but it was objectively reported (far better than the lamestream media) and informative.
And of course things are not over for Zimmerman. Harry Reid is talking about federal charges. Obama has not spoken out yet, apparently polling to see which way he should go.
Great coverage!
I’ve got video, ‘Oakland Riots After #Zimmerman Not Guilty Verdict’.
I watched your video (poor quality, even poorer content) and I would like my 5 minutes and 10 seconds back.
The title should have been:
Oakland gets upset over Zimmerman verdict, one man rants! Shocking!
Oakland.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/slideshow/2013/07/14/protests-in-oakland-after-zimmerman-trial-verdict/#slide=1
Thanks for the images Dr.! Why are they burning the American flag though? Stupid Treyvonites don’t even know that it is legal to do that! If you are going to riot and hurt people and steal stuff then just go do that, why commit lawful acts? Geez.. The cop car windshield will need to be replaced though. And writing Trayvon’s name on the street with spray paint, I am pretty sure they may face some pretty serious misdemeanor charges for that when they get caught. 😉
I am just glad that everyone’s worst fears did not come, and for the most part people kept violence out of their reactions. Is there anything wrong with that, my opinion?
I agree it’s not as bad as it could have been, but it was a little more serious than writing a name in the street and breaking one police windshield. It also may not be over yet.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Downtown-Oakland-Damaged-in-Zimmerman-Verdict-Protest-215435751.html
“In Oakland the protesters set random fires and vandalized buildings. The Sear’s store on Telegraph suffered the most damage with multiple shattered windows.
The Alameda County Courthouse was also tagged and had a few windows smashed.
Oakland police officer Cynthia Espinoza said a group of masked protesters were seen running down Telegraph Avenue and Broadway throwing objects at several windows, smashing them in the process.
Protesters were also seen tagging buildings and windows with the letters “FTP” or the phrase “Kill Cops.””
The Downfall of Angela Corey…
I’m with Judy!
Bravo–what a great post!
I am concerned that as a result of this trial, people will be hesitant to call 911 and refuse to see enough to be a witness. These are actions that can work against you and get you charged for murder and put you under threat if you’re a key witness. John Good said that was his first 911 call but there have been lots since. That’s scary.
I. See. Nuthink.
I facebooked and tweeted the Kentucky statues about self defense (justifiable use of force) and I’m getting death threats again. These are all screencapped and saved to a shared file that my sister has access to in case something happens to me. It’s for the investigators.
african american atty crump tearfully read a letter he received from MLK jr’s daughter (interestingly, a “doctor” of some sort) that appealed for calm and went on to praise the dead “boy.” and noted that the name Trayvon would go down in the “anals” (as atty crump pronounced it) of history.
Yes, I saw / heard that last night. Very bad, especially so given that he was reading the words of a highly accomplished African American descendent of MLK. Sad really.
That was an oxymoron.
Was is really an oxymoron? Or was it an oxymoron in just your mind, and the minds of more than a few others here from time to time…
In Ann Coulter’s latest column she brings up a 2006 incident about a black man John White killing an unarmed white teen. http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2013-07-10.html#read_more. I am a 50 yr old white male who totally supprted this man.
‘In 2006, the ironically named John White was sound asleep at his nice Long Island home when his teenage son woke him to say there was a mob of white kids shouting epithets in front of the house. The family was in no imminent danger. They could have called 911 and remained safely behind locked doors.
But White grabbed a loaded Beretta and headed out to the end of the driveway to confront the mob. A scuffle ensued and White ended up shooting one of the kids in the face, killing him.
White was charged and convicted only of illegal weapons possession — this was New York, after all — and involuntary manslaughter. He was sentenced to 20 months-to-four years in prison, but after serving five months was pardoned by Gov. David Paterson.’
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/24/nyregion/24commute.html
At the time I thought it a shame that this man had to do time in jail but an illegal gun is well illegal. If not for the strict gun laws of NYC and NY state Mr White wouldn’t have done any time. I supported him then and still do to this day. Everything is not about race, it is about right and wrong and the golden rule. Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. I don’t believe they stress it enough in public schools if it all. It’s all “he disrespected me” BS.
Crud, accidentally downvoted another post I was trying to give an upvote to… I swear there’s a gremlin in my Mac. What I meant to say was that I read about this case and it’s pretty infuriating in the sense that the guy actually left his house to go DIRECTLY confront those kids INSTEAD of calling the police. Yes, if the kids were shouting racial epithets, that’s bad– but lets apply the same standards that the Trayvombies demand… And all the race hustlers were supporting this guy.
Left his house left his truck, teenagers dead… Crap! Lots of thumbs down for you coming. (jkg) 😉
It’s too bad at least one of those kids wasn’t armed.
You can’t shoot someone for words unless they’re threatening and have the means immediately at hand to carry out the threat, such as brandishing a knife, crow bar or 2×4 such that one believes he or she is inimminent danger of death or GBI.
It would have been reasonable for White to get his gun at the ready, call the cops, and shoot only if the kids entered the premises before the cops got there. He was already in a realtively safe place and overtly went outside to shoot. That’s murder.
Quote:
It’s too bad at least one of those kids wasn’t armed.”
Yes, it really is too bad. (Sarc)
Quote:
“It would have been reasonable for White to get his gun at the ready, call the cops, and shoot only if the kids entered the premises before the cops got there. He was already in a realtively safe place and overtly went outside to shoot.
So just how long was this well meaning man supposed to have stay in his house (truck)? He did not break a single law by going outside, near the location of the teenagers (Treyvon). (Sarc)
Quote:
“That’s murder.”
Rolling my eyes…
I am so relieved! Because I didn’t think the verdict would come out this way. Seems I should trust women more.
The other thing? Since the Martin’s weren’t in court, I’m guessing that the verdict was known by the judge. And, known by Crump. Who had to show up in court. But who made sure the Tray Parents were not there!
How can a judge know in advance? Who sez no one looks at the jury form when it is received?
Maybe, it’s like those acceptance letters from college? If you get in you get a thick envelope. Otherwise, a thin letter with “regrets.”
So, maybe, IF the ladies had found Zimmerman guilty (and thank goodness they did not!) … Their package of jury results would have been thicker?
As O’Mara said, when he said he was David against Goliath. The State was like a big ocean liner, with so much money to spend, there isn’t a Defense in the world that could keep up.
LOTS OF EYES. ACROSS AMERICA. Where the lamestream media has already failed. But where people have learned to look for information at sites like this. WHOOPEE! WE WON SOMETHING, TOO.
I thought the “tell” about the verdict was the fact that they wanted more information about manslaughter but when they were asked to be specific, there were no further questions.
For anyone who was holding out hopes for a conviction on 2nd degree murder, just that question would be disappointing. This may have been the Martin family (I don’t know).
Furthermore, I wondered if the jury realized in the time between their question & when they got the return request, they realized they no longer needed clarification. The silence was a “tell” that manslaughter was also off the table… leaving “not guilty.”
Perhaps they found the answer in the documents they already had during the time they were waiting on Nelson to get her act together.
I had the same idea. One juror had a ‘one last thing’ thought about ‘maybe’ manslaughter, but when pushed to be more specific, just said ‘Nah, I don’t want to over-engineer this, so let’s just go with self defense.’
Crump didn’t have to show up in court.
i watched a little of the black network (msnbc) last night. if you can believe this, an african american lady commentator said she had a young black son and when he asked her what he should do if someone with a gun approached him she said she didn’t know whether to tell him to run or FIGHT, cause he could get picked off while fleeing you know. Of course implicit in the scenario was the left out info that the “someone” with the gun was a “creepy ass cracker” cop wantabe, and not the black thug that probably accounts for 90 some percent of black ‘boy” deaths in america.
but the big point was, this black MSNBC commentator mom couldnt figger out whether to advise her young boy to FIGHT or flee the creepy ass cracker. she didnt opine what he should do if the creep was a (much more likely) brotha. apparently that scenario is not newsworthy in the african american community.
Most all of us here are probably not African Americans, but how could anyone possibly know that there are not African Americans that supported George and are reading and commenting here?
Calling MSNBC the Black Network is just… well, you describe it to us yourself after you tell your African American neighbor or coworker the same.
BTW, IMO MSNBC is the far left network, which would include many whites and blacks, among others.
you know i probably WAS wrong about that. i turned on HLN this am and they were also playing the same note, essentially. MSNBC is not “the” only network playing the racist card.
one HLN commentator said she knew the trial was going bad when RJ was portrayed negatively by the defense, and that she knew then the trial wasn’t going to be about the “facts” but about RACE. that the defense was going to make it about RACE.
right.
“MSNBC is the far left network, which would include many whites and blacks, among others.”
Which, with the exception of Sharpie Sharpton, does NOT include any of their prime-time line-up.
They are are white-bread as the Netroots leadership.
IIRC, there was a study of network newsrooms’ diversity a while back (a year or so?) and MSNBC brought up the rear, or close to it.
Just where are all these young black men hanging out where people are approaching them with guns all the time to where it is even an issue?
In the ghetto, where very few other races or ethinicities reside or dwell, for very good reason.
The NY Times online story on the acquittal last night was infuriating in its characterization of TM:
“Martin had no criminal record and was on a snack run, returning to the house where he was staying as a guest.”
Riiight. Wouldn’t want your readership to actually, y’know, be given any of the facts of the case.
I read that piece. The NYTimes and other media seem to be churning this case to enhance readership, even if that means furthering ignorance and hoping for race riots.
Stop me if I am thoroughly missing something…
When in the course of this trial was SYG law imposed by the defense?
Do these clowns in the media really not understand that GZ could have capped TraydeMark as soon as he began approaching GZ? – under fear of imminent threat.
I guess repealing SYG laws across the country is going to stop the high murder rate amongst young black males?
Oh no!!
Don’t say that.
Especially don’t DO that.
Capping somebody just because they’re approaching you is not justifiable use of deadly force.
You will be found guilty of murder.
I misworded that….
If someone is approaching in a threatening manner and you tell them to stop, tell them you’re going to shoot etc and they continue at you, or in this case sucker punch you he could have shot right then and there
Prof Jacobson and Andrew, thanks for your work on this site. I only found this site in the last week or so and have found it to be extremely helpful. IANAL (even though I do stay at Holiday Inn Express regularly), but as a research analyst, I enjoy the logical arguments/perspectives by the legal minds that contribute to this site.
I am pleased with the Not Guilty verdict – If GZ could not legally defend himself given the facts of this case, who could?
I am, however, concerned about the precedent, at least in the view of the public, that has been set in this case. It is a bedrock principal in our Country that one is presumed Innocent, unless and until the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they are Guilty. In this case, the defense was basically forced to (even though it was a logical choice) to take on the burden and attempt to prove innocence.
Are people (and the media), going to expect (demand?) future defendants take on that burden? If so, this may have been a very costly victory for us all.
Not sure why you got two thumbs down, unless people think you’re being a concern troll.
Be that as it may. Re self-defense, it’s still better to be a criminal defendant than to be maimed or dead.
I think I accidentally pressed them myself (at least one). Still learning the best way around this site.!
I take it you may not have seen the various pundits who allege: “…a verdict of “not guilty” does not mean ‘innocent’,…”
Now that is scary…a new interpretation on “innocent until proven guilty” where Dan Rather style logic applies …e.g., “False, but accurate” … in other words, you are innocent, but once adjudicated “not guilty” your status changes to “not innocent” as well? Apparently, in some minds anyone can be both simultaneously.
Not being a lawyer, but I remember reading that a not guilty verdict in legalese is a declaration by the jury of the innocence of the accused. So just what is the legal difference between ‘not guilty’ and ‘innocent’?
The NAACP says they are pushing DOJ for a civil rights case against GZ, however, this morning on FOX a Judge says that federal Civil Rights cases can only be brought against sworn officials like the police. GZ was only a civilian on Neighborhood watch, and was not a sworn official of the government. Could one of you lawyers out there shed more light on this?
Technically speaking…
day got nutin’…nut–thin…
Not withstanding the federal rules about civil rights cases, I’d find it ludicrous as a black on black suit, given that if you apply the 1% rule most activists encourage [demand?]then George is just as black as the Martins. Both are minority groups any way you slice it, except to the media and federal drones who invented “White Hispanic”, as a distinction from Non-white Hispanic, for the 2010 census instead of just “Hispanic” …since they finally realized “Hispanic” didn’t refer to a “race” by their own rules.
The feds and media, in their rush for headlines, messed up on the name “Zimmerman” eh….had George been named Jorge Gonzales [or Malik Kenyatta for that matter] would we have heard word one about small town Sanford, Florida?
Y’all tell me.
I agree that the media latched on to the name Zimmerman. The mischaracterization of the name is irritating because people automatically think “JEW” when in fact George Zimmerman is a Roman Catholic.
My surname is obviously German, so naturally, I’m a Nazi. Though I try to hide it, sometimes I can’t help but snap my heels and sieg heil!
However, GZ was not “on neighbourhood watch”. He was heading to the shops when he noticed something suspicious. There is a big difference between the two things and a misunderstanding of Neighbourhood Watch IMHO
Race hustling is exploding all over now – fueled by the Martin attorneys, Ben Jealous, Al Sharpton and the rest of the whackos at MSNBC, CNN and HLN.
After Robert Zimmerman Jr went on CNN and eloquently defended his brother, you have people telling him to STFU and let it go.
It’s pitiful that these networks can’t find a way to get a more balanced message out there. Instead, they are fanning the flames.
Thinking back to last night when speculation went into overdrive about Jurors question on the manslaughter count. Most everyone assumed that it was looking bad for GZ especially when they came back w/ verdict soon after. Watching the talking heads shock came in a delightful 2nd place after GZ and familys reaction. Then to watch the smug commentators who are lawyers try to salvage their reputations and walk back predictions was very amusing. The media should learn a leason in this not to just take dictation from the likes of the black grievance industry but they won’t b/c they’re too afraid of being called racist than being right with their reporting.
I enjoyed it too but I can only take so much of it. Today I was back to switching channels soon as Delouse or Sharpie or Crumb appeared.
I was ne fo just a few who took the manslaughter question as a good sign.
Most of the TV lawyers I saw last night were on Fox, and I don’t recall any of them saying the State was going to win when the State rested, so they didn’t have to walk anything back. The second-stringers on the other stations, with the exception of Joey Jackson who got it right and who also is on Fox from time to time, were the ones walking it back and all were just whining frokm an emotional stance. There was no logic or critical thinking going on. Obviously most of them are not “real” lawyers in the sense of sholarly aptitude or experience. It only takes about 3-4 minutes of viewing them to realize this.
If Obama had four more sons…
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/12/why-is-joshua-chellew-less-important-than-trayvon-martin/
wow!
Rev Al must have missed this one. We need to get this to him quick so he can take up the cause.
I wrote about Mr. Zimmerman’s first lawsuit in this article: http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-s-first-lawsuit
Just wondering, did the governor get enough pressure from the feds (NSA tin foil hat thought) that he had to appoint a special prosecutor and he did. He just picked one he knew was unlikely to get a conviction and who would leave things messed up enough that the DOJ would be left with little that could be pursued that did not look petty and ridiculous.
Perhaps he left them with a be careful what you wish for situation.
they could have just reviewed the police investigation, and later held a press conference stating there was a valid, no probable cause for an arrest in this ‘self defense’ case and ask people to look at the facts, and chill. no riots (cause DOJ would not pay for them).
Instead they did create a travesty of a trial.
Yeah, why DID a Republican Florida Governor bow down to a federal Democratic administration?
Matching Federal Funds
Florida is increasingly a state whose politicians choose a party as a matter of present convenience, not on principles.
NSA? Prism?
I’d like to say that the verdict “restored my faith in the system”, but can’t, because this case showed the system to be rife with corruption. My faith is bolstered only because of men like O’Mara and West who passionately defend the truth and uphold our system of law. At the same time, I’m deeply worried that the numbers of people who actively seek to subjugate the law and the truth, are growing, like a cancer in our society. And I fear that one day soon, their numbers will overwhelm righteousness with deceit.
Have faith. America has had corrupt and dishonorable men and women since its beginning. We have survived all of them, and we will survive these.
The problem with corrupt and dishonorable people is that they grow bolder and bolder until their actions become public knowledge. Then the pushback comes. Obama is reaching that point now, and if he pushes the Zimmerman issue it will drive even more people away from him.
Amen to all that.
Also, I note with considerable interest how silent has been the CBC the past few days.
I think the balloon has deflated. Which means only that some new cause d’jour will be promoted, like the starvation of chil-ren by the GOP when food stamps are curtailed.
To say nothing of the impact on pole-dancers and tattoo salons…
O’Mara is an inspiration. West is a good lawyer.
I think if every one here writes there representative in Congress to ask for an investigation into DOJ RE:GZ and guarantee future hands-off Zimmerman, we might put a stop to this stupid non-sense.
I’m just frankly stunned that Reid has stuck his nose into this… as much as I dislike him, he never struck me as a patsy for the race pimps.
I never put anything past Harry -those-tourists-smell-bad-Reid.
Can somebody give me some solid information as to what could cause immunity under the scenario civil trial?
Florida law grants civil immunity to anyone claiming self defense who is found not guilty or not indicted.
ABOUT PROFILING.
When did profiling become such a negative action?
It is something we all do on a daily basis. “Profiling” simply means running some information you are receiving through a set of facts you have knowledge of. Nothing inherently wrong with that at all.
If you live in a neighborhood that has been plagued by young, black men committing crimes, how can it be “wrong” to be suspicious of a young, black man wandering around the neighborhood?
I have a personal story that just happened to me last month.
Photography is a hobby of mine (used to do it professionally).
I was at a park along the river the other day taking photographs of birds and other wildlife. Two young kids were playing in the water with a dog. The lighting was great and I was playing around with slower shutter speeds to try and get some nice movement with the water.
After taking photos for a couple of minutes, it hit me that I was a middle aged white guy snapping photos of young children. Hmmmm…. That might not look too good. I realized that I fit the “profile” for a creepy dude. I also noticed that there were a couple of adults looking at me.
So, I walked over to the adults, one was the mother of the children, and introduced myself to them. I told them what I was doing and how it might have looked suspicious to them. I showed the mom the photos, which she loved, and told her that I would be happy to email her copies. We had a laugh about the whole thing and everything was great.
There is no question I was being profiled by these adults… and there is nothing wrong with that.
They were protecting their children. If they had called the police, I would have had no problem with that. As it was, I was able to simply diffuse the situation by explaining myself.
Sure, I can see how a young, black man might get sick of people looking at him suspiciously when he is doing nothing wrong, but that is just life. Rather than getting angry, they should try and avoid behavior or dress that makes them more likely to fit the “profile” of someone up to no good. Or simply accept the facts that they may occasionally have to explain to concerned neighbors what they are doing.
Great story.
You were not doing anything illegal by photographing the kids, though. I hope people would be better informed about what’s legal or not.
You did the right thing.
By being open about what you were doing, and by showing sensitivity towards the mother’s understandable concerns.
If only we could all try to respect and understand one another, like you did!
Oh, I know I wasn’t doing anything illegal, and I knew I wasn’t a creepy pedophile too, BUT I also realized that I was acting in a way that might give someone reason to be suspicious of that. That is kind of my point.
While you may know you are not doing anything wrong and are not “up to no good”, that does not mean it is automatically unreasonable for someone else to be suspicious of you.
Great post!
I have my own experience with profiling and how I profiled some young black males, but did nothing, and then 15 minutes later a 20 year old black male was gunned down by these very same suspects. This is a bit long, but maybe worth a read.
I live in a downtown area in a dangerous city, but it’s pretty nice where I live. Still, the projects are not far away. I live in a loft building and my windows look out on the parking lots. Over the course of 10 years, I can’t even begin to count the times I’ve called the police on suspicious people and people breaking into cars, etc. I guess that makes me a busybody, but those of us who have a good view of the backside of our building try to be good neighbors by monitoring the alley and parking lot at night.
About 2 years ago–right around Halloween, I was returning from walking my dog at night and as I was coming into the back entrance of my building, I saw a car down the alley with some very thugged out looking black males congregating about. To be honest, I don’t know you empirically quantify a gut reaction, but something you can just tell who’s harmless and who’s really up to no good. Something about the stripe of these guys just did not sit well with me.
I got back to my unit and looked out the window at them. I was definitely picking up a bad vibe from them and I started thinking that maybe I should call the police to come down and run them off. This alley is a rather busy alley because it connects to a museum on the other side, so it’s not uncommon for people to be there at night.
Then I started having this conversation in my head, imagining my call to the police– usually it’s a black female dispatcher who answers the phone and when they ask what the situation is, over time it becomes embarrassing to have to describe the suspects because it always just sound like I’m profiling black males– but it’s not like we’ve ever had a rash of white criminals hit our area. It is what it is.
And I couldn’t think of one concrete reason that wasn’t going to sound like profiling to a black police dispatcher, so I paced back and forth debating with myself whether or not to call the police.
After about 15 minutes, as I was walking around in my living room, I started hearing some very loud POPs. I ran to the window and I saw this car full of these black males starting to speed down the alley– and the guy in the passenger seat was pointing a handgun out the window and firing indiscriminately at a rapidly dispersing crowd of random bystanders. Fortunately, he didn’t hit anyone at this time.
I grabbed my phone and finally dialed the police. As I was waiting– about 45 seconds after I heard and saw the shots being fired, I heard another series of shots– coming from the opposite side of my building. Unfortunately, I have no windows on that side so I couldn’t see what was happening.
It turns out that this car full of thugs had driven around to the other side of the block and saw a crowd of people standing on the sidewalk and they pulled up and shot a 20 year old black male and killed him in cold blood before speeding away. Right next to the front door of my building.
I would ask some of the anti-profiling Trayvon hoodie wearing sympathizers to listen to me for a moment. If I had listened to the voice of my gut–and my logical mind– and had called the police the second I saw these guys and knew they were up to no good. It’s very likely that this 20 year old black male would be alive today.
Instead, I listened to that nagging PC white guilt voice in my head and did nothing. A young person is dead because of it.
These people have got to be realistic about crime. They may not like being profiled, but they never realize that sometimes in this world of black-on-black (and yes, black-on-white, but I don’t even have time to go there) violence, sometimes the person who gets profiled could be the person who could have gone on to kill someone– black, white, whatever– in the subsequent minutes, hours, days.
Profiling is one word for it, but what it is really, is just listening to one’s instincts and sense of reality. And it can save lives.
Thanks for sharing that!
I think you described the reality of “profiling” in today’s world far better than I did!
A friend of mine worked as a cab driver for a while. When he started, a veteran black driver (of which there were very few) gave him some advice, including this: “If you want to stay out of trouble, don’t pick up no [n-words].” My friend (who had immigrated from a country that was then mostly white) initially ignored the advice.
After a couple of close brushes with a violent and premature death, he began to be more cautious about whom he would allow to get into his cab — not strictly on racial grounds, but race combined with elements of self-presentation that would bear on character.
Still, there were many times where customers would simply run away without paying their fare. And they were overwhelmingly (perhaps exclusively) black.
Later, he was physically assaulted by a larger, stronger, younger black man.
He had brought no racial prejudice from his country of birth, where his very limited interactions with black people were pleasant. It was hard experience with the black underclass that taught him to “profile” – just as that black cab driver had advised.
It is a sad truth that in many ways certain types of people, not necessarily race, form our opinions. The way you dress the way you act and yes your color all combine into to what is essentially profiling. We all do it unconsciously. It is a natural human reaction. Anyone who says they do not profile is a liar.
Once, decades ago, about 4 am I was walking down the middle of the street in the Montrose district of Houston. I mean the middle of the street. Not on the sidewalks.
I heard the well-known (since I was raised around guns) sound of someone racking a pump shotgun from one of the houses.
I froze, threw my hands as far from my body as possible without throwing them off my wrists, and started “sir-ing” as fast and often as I knew how.
A shaky old man on the porch told me to get my ass off his street. Which I did with all the alacrity that what dignity I had at the time (I was a teenaged hippy-freak) would allow.
He had profiled me as up to no good. He was perfectly correct. And I was…and am…grateful that the model shotgun he was holding was not one that had a propensity to fire when returned to battery, as I had seen several do.
I often marvel that we get past puberty alive.
LOL!
Well, I would say the old man’s reaction was a “bit extreme” for the given situation, but I’ll bet that incident stuck with you and influenced your decisions the next time you considered being “up to no good”.
Thanks!
Funny story!
Rags…to my knowledge only Winchester Model 97’s and Model 12’s, which I grew up with, would fire upon the bolt coming in to battery if the trigger was held back. It is one of the reasons the US Army bought so many of them as “trench guns” …they’d fire each time you racked the slide so long as the trigger was held back. A really nice Pigeon Grade version today, skeet or trap model, costs a fortune. Anybody here got a mint condition one in trap stocking I’ll buy it…or at least negotiate for it.
I do love a person who knows his guns!
“ABOUT PROFILING” … It’s the way the p/c crowd plays with words.
“There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life,than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—and then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” Jesse Jackson
And a little peer pressure — used to be called ‘shame’ — on those in their community who create or perpetuate the behaviors that in turn create negative stereotypes that in turn affect their standing in the broader community wouldn’t hurt, either.
I find this rich: the people running around spouting “If he’d just listened and stayed in his truck like he was told” (myth), are the same idiots who didn’t see a problem with Rodney King disobeying direct police orders and being responsible in some way for that whole scenario.
When aren’t these people moving the goalposts?
Zim was NOT following.
“left-leaning media were fond of repeating false statements favorable to the prosecution such as the claim that Zimmerman got out of his car despite being instructed to remain in it. In fact, he was already out of his car when the 911 dispatcher told him “we don’t need you to do that.” According to Zimmerman, he turned around and tried to return to his vehicle and was subsequently confronted by Martin.”
Sorry, can’t find the link right now.
I know. But these people will just not hear it. They refuse. They complain about “two Americas” and yet, they can’t see it’s all because of their own willful ignorance. They bring up the name Emmett Till and with their next breath they’re ready to run off and lynch George Zimmerman.
Congratulations black America, you’ve become the very thing you hated.
This is my very first post here but I’ve followed almost every minute of the Zimmerman trial and I especially appreciate Andrew Branca’s contributions to my understanding of the legal issues.
Just a reminder that Shellie Zimmerman’s trial for perjury is scheduled to begin on August 21, 2013. The prosecutors have already demonstrated their vindictiveness so I expect they will really go after her.
As an aside, Andrew’s name is misspelled in the List of Contributors to the website.
We need to put pressure on the Florida authorities to drop this now.
We need to pressure them into pursuing all the perjury committed in this case equally. If they dont prosecute rachel jeantel, then it is clearly a case of discrimination and selective persecution.
was there a child in the vicinity when the alleged offense took place? I hope not, otherwise we are looking at child abuse again..
I need to do some more reading on this case. I think the family has been through enough, but if there is solid case against her she should probably have her day in court. If it looks like she committed a crime, we can’t just ask for it to be thrown out because we know George got screwed.
I know this won’t be a popular answer and I’ll do some more reading on the case.
there is not a solid case because the affidavit is based upon false information.
BDLR or Guy did a cut and paste and left out critical information regarding what Shellie stated.
They claimed she lied when asked a question but she did in fact answer it truthfully. She told them to ask her brother-in-law, and they did no follow-up.
Instead of asking Robert Zimmerman Jr. about what funds were in the account, they accused Shellie of lying when she was not in a position to know that there had been extra funds going into the account.
Does anyone know who is representing Shellie? If it’s O’Mara and West, she’s in good hands.
Shellie Zimmerman is represented by Kelly B. Sims
You can view the progress of the case here: http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001792A
Probably not up until now. There would be a potential conflict of interest.
Now, no, unless George is also charged, and I just do not remember.
Will Shellie’s case also be in half-wit nelson’s courtroom?
Legal Insurrection has both AF Branco, the Political Cartoonist and AF Branca, the Self Defense Attorney and Author.
I don’t think so.
“Branca” is our self-defense expert.
“Branco” is the excellent cartoonist often featured here.
Can’t remember if I already posted these (thought it would be a slow recovery day, turning into anything BUT):
“DOWNFALL” Angela Corey version, by @MsEBL LMAO funny http://is.gd/B6DcgQ
Professor Jacobson and I get a brief mention about 3:39 (alongside Dershowitz!)
and
I’m quoted in: “WSJ: Legal Insights on the Zimmerman Verdict” http://is.gd/NwOQyb
–Andrew, @LawSelf Defense
Congrats!
Isn’t Joshua Dressler downright wrong about the burden of proof when making the affirmative defense of self-defense? In that Ohio is the only state in the nation where the burden is on the defendant?
Is this something of a recent change as he sort of implies, at least in Florida?
Trayvons mom’s darkest hour, according to her, was when the “creepy ass cracker” (Trayvons words, not hers) was acquitted; darker, apparently, than the night her boy died.
thats according to her tweet this am.
really?
Damn it, I tried to hit reply and thumb downed you by mistake. Sorry!
It was her darkest hour because she saw all that civil suit money go down the drain. Now that zimmerman’s acquitted, he can profit off all those book and movie deals. And he deserves it aft all the crap the state and the race mongers put him through.
She saw a lot of $ going down the toilet with this verdict.
Ironically, due to the acquittal, she and her ex-husband could be subjected to civil liability due to the fact that Trayvon was a “child.” Highly unlikely that Zimmerman or his representatives would ever file a suit against the victim’s parents, but the suit would be legally viable.
$ybrina is only thinking of the lost money. She is a greedy person. She cared nothing for Trayvon. Even on the stand she was wooden in her responses, especially when she was lying about the voice identification.
Her darkest hour has not yet arrived. It will arrive when she is charged with her own fraudulent actions.
I can’t believe you people are still focused on the long over Zimmerman trial while the UK’s preggers Princess Kate is one day past her due date. Priorities, people. PRIORITIES.
Oh heavens!
Let’s abort…
I hope you were joking but that was in poor taste.
Will they name the baby “Trayvon” to promote social justice, and World Peace?
Thank you for that, Henry.
fogflyer | July 14, 2013 at 12:46 pm
ABOUT PROFILING.
Much, much more needs to be said on this issue. I have a funny feeling we’ll have the opportunity, as “they” set out to criminalize it, profiling “us” every step on the way.
For now, I’ll just say that “profiling” is yet another word invented by the left, and give it an inherent negative meaning.
I submit “profiling” is an instant, sub conscience survival instinct. People are constantly assessing threats, without even thinking about it.
No greater threat to a person is another person. This has been understood since the beginning of time.
Shame on me, I am prejudiced: I like cake rather than pie.
I also discriminate: I prefer pinot grigio to chardonnay.
Need clarification here, judges.:) I have friends insisting that Martin’s family will now sue GZ in civil court( a la OJ Simpson). I am under the impression that Florida law prohibits civil suits brought against acquitted defendents.
Or is that wrong( I read it on the internet, LOL)?
I just asked the same question. I read that he was immune from prosecution on this now. Anyone?
IMMUNITY FROM CIVIL PROSECUTION – FL 776.032–Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force prevents that from happening.
There seems to be a question about that. However, Mark O’mara said in his press conference last night that they will defend any future lawsuits against George, and they will win.
He said it as a matter-of-fact.
He also said the will seek immunity under FL §776.032. It will take some great judicial tap dancing to deny that immunity given the jury’s verdict.
776 is the Stand your Ground Law which wasn’t part of the defense, so is GZ still immune?
Could someone tell me if GZ can be charged with a civil case now? I read somewhere that FL law gives him immunity from prosecution now. Anyone know?
I just want to add my gratitude to Mr. Jacobson and Mr. Branca and everyone who covered this trial and gave me a place to lurk for a few weeks and to read some INTELLIGENT commentary. You guys really saved my sanity. To be honest, when I heard the verdict you could have knocked me over with a feather.
Mark O’Mara… wow. That guy was just amazing. I remember the first time I saw him, he reminded me of the principal from the Breakfast Club. But as I watched this trial, I’ve never been more amazed by an attorney– he just radiates class and honor. I have a new admiration for the legal profession.
Don West… loved it that he played the part of O’Mara’s “bad cop” as someone on here put it (I think). He did the gritty work necessary to allow O’Mara to retain his friendly charismatic likeable presence–which I think went a LONG WAY with the jury– especially against the defense’s laughable attempts to sick “McDreamy” on them. Seems like a really honest, direct guy too. I hope he follows up on the ethics charges. And I hope that somehow, someway these guys (and their team) end well compensated for their devotion time and services.
The prosecutors… ick. Sore losers too. I thought it was horrible after the Not Guilty verdict that they would stand at that press conference and badmouth George Zimmerman after all they put him through. Total creeps, all of them. Corey too.
I meant PROSECUTION’S laughable attempts to sick “McDreamy” on them. Jeez, my first day here and I’m all full of typos and accidental downvotes to great posts. Sorry!
No worries!
We knew what you meant 🙂
Now Z can go to work becoming very, very rich. Let the lawsuits begin.
Godspeed, little doodle.
My wish is that NBC becomes GZ’s piggy bank.
You know, now that it’s over, the six ladies on the jury will probably be informed by a friend or two … of what wsa withheld from them by the State.
Imagine how any one of them would feel now that they know Trayvon was not a “boy.” Not a “child.” But had been suspended from school … so he could slide by law enforcement.
What happens if the photo for jewelry on his bed gets put up on the Internet?
Isn’t it possible there could be an “information dump” ahead?
Heck, if I were to write a book about this case? I’d title it: THE PRESIDENT’S SON
I love that title!
I have been thinking about that very issue the past few days. Just wait until they learn the details of TM’s sorry life. Bet they will be relieved at their verdict.
On the Today Show this morning, NBC’s Legal Analyst Lisa Bloom talked about the prosecution’s missteps and disclosed an heretofore unknown “fact” that she claims the prosecution missed and that they should have been more aggressive about presenting it.
Bloom stated that Zimmerman’s gun was holstered behind his back and that it would be impossible to draw a weapon if you’re laying on the ground and getting your head pounded.
I watched much of the trial and from what I heard the gun was holstered inside the waistband on the right side. So I’m left to wonder how Bloom concluded that it was behind his back. Apparently it didn’t occur to her that Zimmerman was driving earlier and it doesn’t make any sense for someone to sit on a gun.
I know, I’ve just been so fed up with the “how can someone get their gun if they’re in THIS position?” gotchas that the prosecution tried to pull out of their backsides. It was a struggle; it wasn’t 40 seconds of stop action animation reducible to 3 or 4 frames. Geez. Movement happens, they were all over the place.
And in relation to the driving thing… I have a CCW and I hate driving with the thing because it’s so uncomfortable at the 4 o’clock position in which I normally carry. Heck, I bought an ankle holster to try some other carrying options.
The spawn of Gloria Allred was preaching the same thing last night, and was quite indignant that the prosecution lost an easy case to prove.
Allred has spawn? OMG, what did she name it?
Lisa Bloom is Gloria Allred’s daughter.
She is wrong about the holster. At least two witnesses testified to the fact that George’s firearm was holstered at the 3 o’clock position in the front.
But that won’t stop her from repeating the lie over and over.
Just like the Prosecution at their Post-verdict presser last night.
“SHRIMPING”
I just had a phone conversation with my son, who is very familiar with martial arts. When I told him George Zimmerman “shrimped” … to get the fight from the concrete to the grass, my son said “shrimping” means you raise and lower your hips. That’s how you get the positional changes.
For sure, Zimmerman did not have the gun at his spine! I think, finally, the Defense Team said it was at 1 O’clock.
The lame-stream media are so spineless they wouldn’t know how to find their spines with two hands and a mirror.
pretty close. I think what your son was describing was bridging. This can be used with an up and over escape where the mounted would end up in the other person’s guard.
Shrimping is more of a movement that gets you from your back to your side. For someone who is mounted it can be used to set up an elbow knee escape. If Zimmerman could pull this off TM would have been in Zimmerman’s half-guard or lockdown which is a better position than being mounted.
Also GZ getting up on his hip may have assisted with being able to get to his gun.
she sounds like a typical idiot talking head… nothing at all up top… just empty space instead of a brain.
How about “ignorant twit” to describe a bull-crapper who likely has never carried a gun.
Andrew getting more fans (and customers). Well-deserved.
Gun Thread (7-14-13)
—Andy
The Zimmerman Trial
“Andrew Branca, who’s been tweeting and blogging the case at Legal Insurrection, is the author of a book called The Law of Self Defense. . . . . I plan on picking up a copy once they get their Kindle version released, because it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than attorney’s fees, etc., in the event that you find yourself in a situation similar to Zimmerman’s. I’ll review it in an upcoming gun thread.”
http://ace.mu.nu/
I might be wrong here, but it seems to me, based on evidence produced and the IMs ruled inadmissible, that had Zimmerman not been armed, Trayvon would be facing first-degree murder or attempted murder, depending on whether he was successful in his attempt to kill Zimmerman. This does not seem to have percolated into the minds of the Trayvon fans in the media.
Get serious.
Trayvon wouldn’t have faced anything.
Because the police would have had to find him first. He wouldn’t have stuck around to answer questions with his new stolen gun.
O’Mara asked that same question to the jury in his closing, but O’Mara concluded and said Assault, two (2) counts.
I am in the extreme minority here, in fact I may be the only one, but I do not believe that Treyvon wanted to murder George, not even for a minute. Mercilessly beat the crap out of him, definitely. But not murder.
I know George said that after the gun struggle began, but we can each have our own opinions and either way it won’t change a thing.
He should have told George he did not intend to kill him. That would have eased George’s mind considerably.
Except when Trayvon, upon discovering the gun, told Zimmerman, “You’re gonna die tonight.”
I think your opinion is plausible but irrelevant to the point that GZ acted in self defense.
GZ was mounted and trapped, on the receiving end of a beat down. By that fact alone it was reasonable for GZ to be in fear of great bodily harm or death regardless of TM’s intentions.
“However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1)He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.”
are you denying that Trayvon said “tonight you die m’f’r”?
Yes. Each of us have lied at some point(s) during our lives because it seemed necessary at the time, and I do believe that George lied about that one thing. George pulled his gun and fired during a fist fight. To justify that act he claimed that the other guy “said” that he would kill him that night, “die tonight.” We will most likely never know the truth, but that one thing in this scenario does not fit, IMHO.
“Justice for Trayvon”
Seems to me he got more of it, and sooner, than the judicial system would have delivered, if it eventually delivered any at all.
Congrats. Please post the link!
You were also feted and featured at Ace, again.
Andrew getting more fans (and customers). Well-deserved.
Gun Thread (7-14-13)
—Andy
The Zimmerman Trial
“Andrew Branca, who’s been tweeting and blogging the case at Legal Insurrection, is the author of a book called The Law of Self Defense. . . . . I plan on picking up a copy once they get their Kindle version released, because it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than attorney’s fees, etc., in the event that you find yourself in a situation similar to Zimmerman’s. I’ll review it in an upcoming gun thread.”
http://ace.mu.nu/
The blog is spooked today. That post was in response to Andrew’s announcement he’s been asked to provide comments to the WSJ.
Just for sport, I would LOVE for Andrew or Rags, or anyone, to examine transcript of the endless sidebars so we could further document what a piece of excrement Nelson was.
The one downside to the acquittal is that she will not be made to answer for her despicable actions.
I don’t think sidebars have transcripts. The whole idea is for the lawyers and judge to speak off the record but without adjournment.
There has to be a transcript of objections and arguments/decisions.
The sidebars are absolutely “on the record”.
In fact, just trying ti speak with a judge “off the record” concerning a case the judge is presiding can have serious consequences for a lawyer on the case.
Could’a fooled me. I never knew the sidebar conversations become part of the record. But, WOW, if they do, I’m sure there’s a waiting audience, here.
Also, Rick Scott’s gonna have to answer for how he let this cow get this case. And, what, exactly was he thinking.
Sybrina Fulton’s not the only one seeing $$$ dreams being flushed down the toilet.
Help, please! For a serious discussion on another blog, i need to re-locate the link to the Ft. Myers case a few years back where a black man shot dead a Hispanic man he claimed was threatening him and breaking into his house — and was no-billed. Some posters at the other site are proclaiming such a racial alignment could never happen. This was linked from another link here a few days ago. PS the black guy did time on other charges, but not the shooting. kosmograd at yahoo dot com
Thank you again, Professor. Andrew provided an unrivaled combination of legal expertise, self-deprecation, and incisive humor. (and he didn’t even try to sell us anything!)
While I have occasionally read, and even commented a few times, here at LI, Andrew’s analyses – and also allowing an un-moderated, lively, and brilliant comment section – have cemented me as a new regular.
Kindest regards, sir.
Not that it matters one bit, but some of you may have noticed that there was an African American female on the defense team. It is her congratulating or comforting Zimmerman in the widely circulated picture of a smiling GZ taken in the court room shortly after his acquittal, though her face is not in the picture.
The media have studiously avoided mentioning her and I’m not aware of any attempts to interview her. What it is.
She’s evidently getting quite a bit of backlash on twitter:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/07/14/Zimmerman-Teams-Black-Intern-Harassed-On-Twitter
Is there a way that we can counter this petition?
Nearly 400K sign NAACP petition calling for DOJ investigation into Trayvon Martin shooting
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-thousands-sign-tayvon-martin-petition,0,7105798.story
I am calling my representative first thing Monday and ask the look into a counter investigation, and ensure GZ rights are protected by the same people who endorsed justice be carried out mid-investigation AKA Obama. Let’s see what Reid does whenever he tries to get a vote and they say, sure sign this immunity for GZ first..
Great read at pjmedia.
Obama Big Loser in Zimmerman Trial
Forget the over-zealous prosecutors and the repellent state attorney Angela Corey (who should be immediately disbarred or, my wife said sarcastically, elevated to director of Homeland Security) and even the unfortunate Trayvon Martin family (although it is certainly hard to forget them — they have our profound sympathies), the true loser at the Zimmerman trial was Barack Obama.
By injecting himself in a minor Florida criminal case by implying Martin could be his son, the president of the United States — a onetime law lecturer, of all things — disgraced himself and his office, made a mockery of our legal system and exacerbated racial tensions in our country, making them worse than they have been in years. This is the work of a reactionary, someone who consciously/unconsciously wants to push our nation back to the 1950s.
It is also the work of a narcissist who thinks of himself first, of his image, not of black, white or any other kind of people. It’s no accident that race relations in our country have gone backwards during his stewardship.
Congratulations to the jury for not acceding to this tremendous pressure and delivering the only conceivable honest verdict. This case should never have been brought to trial. It was, quite literally, the first American Stalinist “show trial.” There was, virtually, no evidence to convict George Zimmerman. It was a great day for justice that this travesty was finally brought to a halt.
Much more:
http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/07/13/obama-big-loser-in-zimmerman-trial/?singlepage=true
And I should add my personal thanks to Mr. Branca and Professor Jacobson for the phenomenal coverage of this trial. I was riveted to this blog for the duration because I knew I could trust it to have the facts, not just the occasional snippet judged by the media to be favorable to the prosecution and therefore worthy of the nightly news.
You’ve provided an invaluable service in the interest of justice.
My father was darker than most black men, and my mother white. I do not self identify as white. I mention this because I could relate very strongly to RZ ‘s statements on how their family has always seen beyond color being of mixed heritage.
Therefore as mixed race I stand in no easily defineable racial category and am witnessing all this race baiting as setting the cause of civil rights back to segregationist mentality.
We were born and raised as Americans amidst the turmoil of the Actual civil rights era, and I am sick of the hyphenating hyperbole and racially Divisive maneuvering going on which abused George Zimmerman, and is ripping us apart as a nation of immigrants and a melting pot of humanity.
The race baiters are monrey mongering instead of doing what George did to mentor black children so they would have more in life possible for them.
The problem is that GZ is the epitome of the melting pot, but the main stream media refuses to recognize it because it is blind to change and hope.
It is justice that is supposed to be blind CNN, NBC, CBS, etc!
Heartily Agree!
Hi DollzWize, is the issue really one of race, or is it culture? I read an interesting web piece the other day that attributed the divisions not to race, but to culture – where some people are givers, others are takers – some are builders, others are destroyers – some are law abiding, others law breakers … the roots of American culture are Anglo-European in government, law, tradition … non Anglo-European immigrants bring with the other cultural values – theism, tribalism, cabalism, or some other forum of self-government that stands in opposition to the Republic(an) form of government …
While most of us here hoped GZ would be judged by the rule of law, in accord with our Constitution and laws derived therefrom, there was a counterculture movement that wanted to try GZ by hearsay evidence and popular opinion, ala Tribal Council (Survivor).
It makes me wonder what people think they’re reaffirming when they recite the pledge of allegiance … it is effectively a commitment to our Anglo-European (heritage/rooted) way of life … perhaps the real problem is not race, but that with immigration, we have lost sight of our cultural foundation / roots.
That’s not a statement of race, rather, what I see is a growing throng of people who seem to reject America as a country founded upon a system of government and laws. Our respect for and adherence to that foundation is what binds us together as “one nation” …
At the risk of sounding cliche, throughout my career in the aerospace industry, I worked with many ethnically diverse coworkers. Likewise as an amateur musician, some of the bands I’ve played in were mixed race. There were never any race related issues – we were coworkers, bandmates and friends, because we were part of a common culture, professional or music-wise. Color just seems to disappear when the culture is shared.
Thanks for letting me ramble.
Thank you sharing your insights, I find them very insightful. I am also very glad you mentioned the inherent cultural cohesiveness in music.
I am a classical musician and was raised in that environment as both my parents were also classical musicians. Therefore I just am kind of astonished at how far behind the general culture is when it comes to race and cultural cohesiveness in this country
Most ethnic groups have been guilty of an excess of criminal violence at one time or another. The haters just don’t get it, nor do the race mongers.
Since this is an open thread…
(If you are offended by the classic “Hitler as…” series, do not click.
Hitler as Angela Corey.
(Branca and Jacobson are mentioned)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=svjISYrTMyk
Never saw anything in this series before, did think this was Hilarious!
Hilarious – great dialogue…fit the characters perfectly.
“Prediction: the Zimmerman verdict will lead to amendments to penal codes across the country to make it easier for prosecutors to win convictions, causing even more blacks to be incarcerated.”
Some of Martin’s family members, walking out of church this morning met the media to say they are heartbroken but undefeated(all three had on T-shirts with messages printed, husband started laughing when he realized they were not ‘Justice for Trayvon” shirts, rather they were “2 for 2 Miami Heat shirts…yep, they are so heartbroken and have their priorities.)
They said they will work to change the laws in Florida…(so that no one can defend themselves?)
I am thinking of having a T-shirt made. it will say:
I am a creepy-assed cracka
and I have a gun.
One of my lovely lady friends has volunteered to make it for me!
There was a meme on fb, a pic of a white, blond woman pointing a gun straight at you the viewer. Arrow pointing to her face said Cracker. Arrow to gun said Barrel. Caption underneath said Any questions? LOL
President Obama could heal racial division, but . . . .
Yeah, and pigs could fly, but…..
…or when monkeys fly out of my butt?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPruGs4IyK4
and he could help prevent the Trayvons in Chicago, Detroit, and LA, but no…Obama, like all leftists, is a destroyer not a builder.
Truly, God is the redeemer, restorer of souls…Democrap programs are no substitute for repentance and Divine power.
Barf Al;ert:
POS issues statement calls for “honoring” Trayvon through peaceful means.
“The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.”
Maybe he should have said something on that order before he ran his mouth the first time.
I notice he got that ‘stem the tide of gun violence’ in there.
That is typical Obama. Don’t hold people responsible for their actions,; blame the inanimate object.
I actually conducted an experiment on this.
I placed a pistol with a magazine and several rounds of ammunition on my dining table and observed it for 24 hours. The pistol never loaded itself or committed any illegal acts. In fact it never moved.
I then placed a pistol on the table next to a loaded magazine and observed it for 24 hours. Again the pistol never inserted the magazine into itself or even moved. On the third day I placed a pistol fully loaded with a chambered round on the table. The result were consistent with those of the two previous days.
Next I placed a cat in the middle of the table. She immediately jump down and began scratching her claws on my antique sofa. I placed a second cat on the table. She immediately jumped down and curled up on the antique sofa and went to sleep. I then placed a third cat on the table. She immediately jumped down and committed assault and battery on the cat innocently sleeping on the antique sofa.
Conclusion:
Guns are inanimate objects incapable of performing any acts on their own. Cats, however, are little hoodlums who will commit criminal acts two out of three times.
FINALLY, someone who gets it about cats.
we have two, and they play that game where one rings the doorbell while the other slinks off with my pizza.
as kittens they are also adept at unpegging and stealing socks. True story because it happened to me ROFL
To Aussie,
I rescue cats and in particular bottle raise motherless kittens. I once had a litter who were such wild little things that collectively we referred to them as the Vandals. Then we had another litter which we called the Mongols, don’t even get me started on them! LOL
Yep, my read is Long overdue political back pedaling – he Never should have inserted himself into this case in the first place
I thought this interview with the beautiful black intern, Shana Lloyd, who worked for the Zimmerman team might interest some people.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/07/14/Zimmerman-Teams-Black-Intern-Harassed-On-Twitter
Sorry. That’s Channa Lloyd.
And yes she is a beauty in all the finest expressions of the word.
Definitely. Actually there were a few good looking ladies at the defense tables during the trial. A nice bonus.
Here’s a nice interview..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqJM1bv8yRE
Still laughing over hitler’s video and [Dr.] Bao’s reference 😉