Image 01 Image 03

LIVE: Rittenhouse Trial Day 8

LIVE: Rittenhouse Trial Day 8

Dr. John Black, the defense use-of-force expert, is expected to be the day’s first witness

Welcome back to our ongoing live coverage of the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse. Kyle is charged with a variety of felonies, including first-degree murder, for shooting three men, two fatally, as well as for alleged reckless conduct on the night of August 25, 2020, in riot-torn Kenosha WI.

You can find our commentary and analysis of yesterday’s trial proceedings here: Rittenhouse Trial Day 7: Kyle Survives Abusive Cross-Examination

As usual, you can follow our live streaming of today’s court proceedings as well as our live, real-time commenting of courtroom testimony and argument as it occurs, right here.



And don’t forget to join us this evening for our usual plain English legal analysis and commentary of the day’s proceedings, along with the courtroom video of it all.


You carry a gun so you’re hard to kill.

Know the law so you’re hard to convict.

Stay safe!


Attorney Andrew F. Branca
Law of Self Defense LLC

Nothing in this content constitutes legal advice. Nothing in this content establishes an attorney-client relationship, nor confidentiality. If you are in immediate need of legal advice, retain a licensed, competent attorney in the relevant jurisdiction.




Donations tax deductible
to the full extent allowed by law.


Two things I’m expecting today with respect to the use-of-force/self-defense expert Dr. Black:

I expect the defense will elicit testimony from him putting to rest the silly notion that KR’s killing of the nutjob Rosenbaum was reckless given that Rosenbaum’s pelvis had been shattered with the first shot and was therefore no longer a threat to KR because he, Rosenbaum, was out of the fight at that point.

I further expect that Binger will elicit testimony from Dr. Black regarding KR’s use of a sling and how that would pretty much eliminate the risk to KR of having his rifle taken from him by Rosenbaum or Huber.

We’ll see. Buckle up.

    zero_speed in reply to OnePingOnly. | November 11, 2021 at 9:12 am

    The rifle, if seized by Rosenbaum, and still retained by the sling, will remove one fist from Rosenbaums impending swing had KR stayed upright. Rosenbaum still has two other feet to kick with. The rifle in the sling could still be grabbed with both hands by Rosenbaum and wrestled by both with the chance of KR going to the ground for a ground and pound.

    I think Binger wanted to hear this from KR but KR kept to a minimum waiting for the UoF expert.

      Layman101 in reply to zero_speed. | November 11, 2021 at 9:23 am

      I totally disagree with the sling preventing losing the rifle.
      Hold that sling up and ask someone if they would trust it to go mountain climbing, or riding a zip line.

      I is not designed to support much more that the weight of the rifle, put a few hundred pounds of force on it ( Kyle ~ 180lbs, JR 150lbs ) and one of those small clips is going to break.

        Layman101 in reply to Layman101. | November 11, 2021 at 9:28 am

        * It is not designed..

        Also would add, that was a fraction of a second from becoming a life or death struggle.
        If the rifle was taken, or even controlled by JR so that no shots were fired, that crowd would have been on top of them in a heartbeat.
        Think I have seen enough videos of those crowds beating random, innocent, people half do death for a lot less than trying to be a good guy.

        Yep. a cheap chinese single-point sling is only useful to keep wearing the rifle while using your hands. it is not much of a problem for someone taking the rifle.

        OnePingOnly in reply to Layman101. | November 11, 2021 at 9:50 am

        And the defense can argue that by eliciting testimony from its expert witness to that extent, but that doesn’t mean Binger isn’t going to try to argue that the sling made it impossible for anyone to take KR’s gun. Kyle himself stated yesterday that he feared Rosembaum and Huber were going to take is gun and use it to shoot him (or others).

        NewGTGuy in reply to Layman101. | November 11, 2021 at 5:04 pm

        And, it was a single point sling. Basically, one end of the sling wraps around the body and attaches to an adjustable point on the other side of the sling. The remaining end then attaches to the firearm (usually right under where the buffer tube attaches to the lower on an AR-15). If he “bought the cheapest one”, he likely got a weak garbage sling that just about any adult could rip away with a reasonable amount of force.

    lurker9876 in reply to OnePingOnly. | November 11, 2021 at 9:39 am

    This sounds a lot like a theory coming from “emptywheel”, who was a director of some killer movie with Woody Harrelson. This “emptywheel” nitpicked every details with misinterpretation and theory when it came to Scooter instead of Armitage (who had the gall to show up at Colin Powell’s funeral).

      OnePingOnly in reply to lurker9876. | November 11, 2021 at 10:01 am

      Binger briefly touched on the sling thing yesterday in his cross of KR asking why he was concerned about having his rifle taken away considering he’d had it slung around his neck and back. I was surprised Binger didn’t hammer that further. Maybe Binger is waiting for the self-defense expert to go further down that road, Or maybe I’m all wet thinking Binger thinks it’s worth pursuing further for the reasons stated above (cheap Chinese product, etc.)

        Midfiaudiophile in reply to OnePingOnly. | November 11, 2021 at 10:22 am

        I expect Binger to go after it, the defense to reply primarily with “He’d only gotten the thing that day, he didn’t know how well he could rely on it and was in a fight for his life”, and then Binger to allege that using a sling in which he wasn’t 100% confident is prima facie recklessness.

        Binger only uses products in which he’s 100% confident, like Apple’s black box image processing.

          Not sure why the weapon angle is beingseen as important to be honest. If Kyle HAD pointed it at Rosembaum and he continued to charge then Rosenbaum has made quite clear his intent to carry out his earlier murderous threats to Kyle DESPITE the risk.
          It’s not Kyle’s fault that the psychopath felon made a bad choice to continue to charge.
          If I was Kyle, I’d have been extremely worried about the weapon being neutralized by Rosenbuam seizing the barrel, possibly taking him to the ground, and taking away Kyle’s only self defense asset in the midst of a very hostile crowd.
          Had the rioters seen that and smelled weakness Kyle was headed for the hospital if not the morgue. Ask Andy Ngo, among many others.

Looking a second, and fifth time, at the Judges admonishment of Binger I have it 50/50 that he accepts defense motion for mistrial with prejudice.
He has made a mockery of the pre-trial rules, attempted to smart-ass the Judge and at times was clearly testifying in front of the jury – multiple times.

Not sure if that last point is valid, but to me it would seem more making closing arguments while questioning witnesses. If that is allowed, then I think it should not be.

    Smooth23 in reply to Layman101. | November 11, 2021 at 9:26 am

    I give it more like 10% for mistrial. He is very reluctant

      Layman101 in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 9:31 am

      He does seem that way, which is good.
      I am hoping he took the full evening to really dive in and look at all the nonsense the ADAs have been trying to spin throughout the last week+ and deliver a very reasonable victory to the lad.

      AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 9:42 am

      I think he’s going to let the jury return a verdict, then if their verdict goes against the overwhelming evidence, use that to demonstrate that the prosecutor’s intentional misconduct has unfairly influenced the trial and that justifies ‘with prejudice’.

      Or maybe I’m just hoping..

    fredx3 in reply to Layman101. | November 11, 2021 at 1:35 pm

    You can never, never, never tell how a judge is going to rule on a motion based on what he says or does in the courtroom. It is entirely possible that he would change his mind after he reviews a few cases on what the law is on that matter.
    PLUS – as far as I am aware, the defense never formally moved for a mistrial. They would be nuts to do so at this point. The defense attorney said he was inclined to move for a mistrial, but never actually made the motion.

      akolasinski in reply to fredx3. | November 11, 2021 at 3:10 pm

      They moved for a mistrial with prejudice. I don’t think it will be granted, though. Schroeder has a lot of faith in his community being capable of delivering a fair trial in difficult circumstances.

      Gosport in reply to fredx3. | November 11, 2021 at 5:31 pm

      I though I understood that they made the motion for mistrial in writing after they threatened it verbally the other day.

Mr Branca, what happened to Its just showing a ‘buy this domain’ type message today

    AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 9:46 am

    Domain has allegedly expired, GoDaddy have registered it and are holding it hostage. I see that as corrupt behaviour.

    Mr Branca has a range of options to recover the situation but the only one likely to be quicker than ‘weeks’ is a call to GoDaddy inviting them to do the right thing.

      c_programmer in reply to AnAdultInDiapers. | November 11, 2021 at 12:05 pm

      It’s a service they provide. The second your domain expires anyone can step in and buy it for themselves. In practice there are bots that look for recently dropped domains and register them if they had any search engine presence. Once scooped up you have to pay an actual ransom to buy it back.

      What GoDaddy (and every other major registrar) does is hold on to the domain for you and give you an exclusive right to buy it from them by simply renewing. If you don’t do so in a certain time they drop the domain and you’re on your own. Domain transfers are common and available provided you actually own the domain.

        c_programmer in reply to c_programmer. | November 11, 2021 at 12:13 pm

        Actually it looks like I provided incorrect information. My web dev experience is pretty outdated. This is what GoDaddy does with expired domains

        +1 day We’ll try to auto-renew it, or you can manually renew for the standard renewal price.
        +5 days We’ll try to auto-renew again – but if that doesn’t work, your domain gets parked: your site and email stop working. But you can still manually renew for the standard renewal price.
        +12 days We’ll try to auto-renew your domain one more time. You can still manually renew for the standard renewal price.
        +19 days Domain goes on hold: it’s still in your account but inactive. Manually renew with applicable redemption fee.
        +26 days Domain goes to auction. You can still manually renew for the standard price plus the applicable redemption fee. You can also place your own bid.
        +30 days If no active bids in the auction, the domain stays in your account but now it’s expired. You can manually renew for the standard price plus the applicable redemption fee. If there’s an active bid at auction, the domain can’t be renewed.
        +36 days Domain goes to a final closeout auction. Until there’s an active bid, you can still manually renew for the standard price plus the applicable redemption fee. Once there’s a bid, you can’t renew the domain, but you can place your own bid.
        +41 days Final closeout auction ends. You can still manually renew for the standard price plus the applicable redemption fee.
        +72 days Domain is removed from your account and you can’t renew it any more. You may be able to register the domain after the registry has released it, but GoDaddy can’t advise when the registry will release a domain for registration.

    mbecker908 in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 11:42 am

    I just clicked on it and it looks fine to me.

    Just a technical glitch on our end, it’s all worked out.

Good morning everyone. Gear up for another fun day of trial watching!

Eggshell Skull | November 11, 2021 at 9:31 am

As mentioned by defense yesterday, Binger is attempting to get the trial dismissed

    jagibbons in reply to Eggshell Skull. | November 11, 2021 at 9:48 am

    That’s BInger’s best hope for a future conviction is a mistrial now. Or, if in the case a mistrial with prejudice, he can continue to “convict” in the court of public opinion. “Not my fault, the judge let this killer lose.”

Binger is out of bullets.

For his blatant abuse and disregard for the 5th Amendment (as well as the 1st in the case of the comments), Binger should be held in contempt and charged criminally.

Why are you using a utubby link from the Washington Compost?

Why is there court on Veterans Day? Are they closed Friday?

Da Judge in Bad Mood.

The judge saying he thought yesterday was Thursday unfortunately.. is not a good look.

    henrybowman in reply to JD74. | November 11, 2021 at 2:35 pm

    It’s a moot point. Rosenbaum is not going to get charged, and the fact that it’s an offense or not an offense doesn’t enter into whether it’s a lethal threat to your well-being.

    It was my understanding that Rosenbaum was *charged* with a felony, but convicted of a misdemeanor, so possessing a firearm was still legal. Concealed carry without a valid permit was not, but is just a ticketing offense if I remember right.

    If the DA made an immunity arrangement with Rosenbaum to wipe the possession charge and block any future charges regarding his actions that night, would that arrangement need to be made available to the defense? Because it’s starting to look a lot like that, either officially or under the table.

Trying to get some voice recording of Kyle in now, that I am sure is just as pointless as the Pudgy Bar and CVS stuff… Hail Mary from Big Boy now.

“I expect his direct questioning by defense to be lengthy, and the cross-examination by ADA Binger to be tedious and pointless.”

Thanks Captain Obvious 🙂
I think you cheated by using all the facts from the last few days!

Why don’t they stand when they are speaking to the judge? Is that something only do on TV?

Is Richards tie his War Tie? It hurts.

Race hustlers gonna race hustle

Ben Crump
What’s amazing to me is how the Judge has demonstrated his bias in support of Rittenhouse in all his rulings throughout the entire case. If a Black man killed two unarmed people on video, no judge would be giving him favorable rulings on hardly any motions.

    OJ Simpson killed two unarmed people, and he got lots of favorable rulings from the judge in his criminal trial. He also walked away with a “not guilty” verdict, even though he was clearly guilty.

    Judges typically err on the side of caution when it comes to protecting the rights of criminal defendants, regardless of any particular defendant’s skin color, because they don’t want to be reversed by appellate courts. This is another case of the the contemptible race-baiting Crump seeing “raaaaacism” where there is none.

    mbecker908 in reply to Juris Doctor. | November 11, 2021 at 11:48 am

    Trayvon Martin tried to murder George Zimmerman by bashing his head into the pavement. Michael Brown tried to take a police officer’s gun away from him and then rushed him in a physical confrontation. Jacob Blake, in Kenosha, came after police with a knife.

    Crump considers all of these miscreants to be heroes.

      guyjones in reply to mbecker908. | November 11, 2021 at 11:58 am

      Not merely Crump; prominent Dhimmi-crats and their dutiful media lackeys/lemmings venerate all of these thugs and perversely cast them as alleged “victims,” at every opportunity. It’s disgusting.

    healthguyfsu in reply to Juris Doctor. | November 11, 2021 at 12:49 pm

    What’s funny is that there are no black people involved in this case…Crump is just looking for more grievance industry hi fives.

Did I miss something? Has judge dismissed defense’s motion for mistrial with prejudice? This whole trial is a travesty!

    AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Jimbo21. | November 11, 2021 at 11:41 am

    Last I heard (live stream, at the time the motion was made) he was ‘taking it under advisement’. Whatever that means.

    I suspect it means he’s consulting with other legal experts before making a ruling of such magnitude, and/or waiting to see how other aspects of the trial (including the prosecutor’s behaviour) pan out.

Mr. Branca, the speed of sound is about 1100 ft/sec. Obviously the actual speed is dependent on air density (temperature, altitude, humidity, etc.).

For instance, at sea level and 60 degrees F, the speed of sound is 760 miles/hour = 1115 ft/sec

Just like the Zimmerman case, this prosecution is being coordinated with the Department of Justice.
I’m sure the FBI is set to arrest Kyle if there is a mistrial w/prejudice or an outright acquittal.

    akolasinski in reply to catscradle. | November 11, 2021 at 11:07 am

    For what?

    TargaGTS in reply to catscradle. | November 11, 2021 at 11:16 am

    As there aren’t any racial, religious or ethnic elements in this shooting, there aren’t any federal issues at stake here. Absent those kinds of issue, FedGov virtually never brings civil rights cases in murders unless the assailant was a law enforcement officer.

    Having said that, absolutely NOTHING is beyond realm of possibility when it comes to this Justice Department. If they’re going to declare moms & dads speaking at school boards as the acts of ‘terrorists,’ maybe defending yourself from the brutal assault by convicted felons is also terrorism.

      henrybowman in reply to TargaGTS. | November 11, 2021 at 2:49 pm

      And on this note (and only slightly off topic):

      Sponsored by Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) in the House and Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA) in the U.S. Senate, the Preventing Gun Violence Through Financial Intelligence Act supposedly aims to study how “homegrown violent extremists” procure firearms and accessories for [committing] “acts of terror” within the United States…
      Among numerous issues with the text of this bill, the most concerning part of this legislation is the fact the term “homegrown violent extremists” is not defined. In fact, it clearly states that the term wouldn’t be defined until AFTER the legislation is adopted! This is pure craziness.

      Weaponized Pelosi: “You have to pass it, and then you still won’t know what’s in it.”
      In other words, Chokepoint reborn, but aimed at any target they like, at any time.

      Register your “violent” opposition with your “representatives” in Washington with a single click.

Midfiaudiophile | November 11, 2021 at 10:55 am

I wonder how Richards’ discomfort with technical questions plays for the jury (see: “Logarithms”). It’s probably insufferable for jurors that either are or view themselves as tech-savvy, but Black is providing higher-level commentary that should be interesting to those sorts of jurors, while asking rudimentary questions that will help bring those less savvy jurors up to speed. It may turn out to be a great combo.

Binger is such a windbag. He just goes on, and on, and on, repeating him self frequently. Is that strategic?

The judge has the patience of the saint. How can anyone suffer listening to Binger’s repetitive, long-winded statements like that? If it were me, I’d be cutting him off.

    henrybowman in reply to akolasinski. | November 11, 2021 at 2:54 pm

    If the defense hopped up every 20 seconds to object “asked and answered,” they’d look like the a*es. By keeping quiet and letting Binger bore the jury to death, they understand who the a*e is.

I think i’ve seen the Binder smirk before.

goddessoftheclassroom | November 11, 2021 at 11:17 am

Reading Andrew’s comments is like reading the transcript of a high school student arguing with his teacher.

goddessoftheclassroom | November 11, 2021 at 11:20 am

“Black: I don’t think the defense expert is all that important to this trial.”

Was “Black” mistakeny typed for “Binger”?

Binger: Why do we need expert, jury can just see on screen.

Agree, why call the detectives, or the ME? Just watch the video while I narrate it .. DUMBASS

It seems that Dr. Black, an expert on self defense/use of force, will not be allowed to answer any questions that seek to elicit his opinions on whether KR’s actions fall within the scope of self defense and all its components?

Okie-dokey then.

He really is nothing more than a video analyst with respect to timing of and between events, not the actions of the accused.


Does Binger intend to keep practicing in this jurisdiction? Or has he poisoned his well?

Midfiaudiophile | November 11, 2021 at 11:43 am

Are motions in limine typically shared with the witnesses that are going to be limited by them? Should Richards have shared the motion with Dr. Black and asked him “Is this going to allow you to do your thing, or do we need to object to this order?”

Clearly, nobody else thought the order said what Binger thought it did, but I’m wondering if the Defense team has some culpability on this one as well.

Slimy attorneys like ADA Binger are the reason people don’t like attorneys.

Binger “won” this by making Black’s testimony so anodyne it won’t have the defense’s intended effect.

    OnePingOnly in reply to KPOM1. | November 11, 2021 at 12:12 pm

    No worries. Yes, it’s tedious and somewhat confusing, but the intent is to get this all into evidence. It will all be tied together in plain language for the jury in the defense’s closing argument.

In my mind, the ONLY thing that matters is Kyle’s frame of mind at the time he fired the shots. Was he in fear of death or serious bodily harm at that time.

Isn’t that true?

99% of this trial is meaningless

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to darwin. | November 11, 2021 at 12:10 pm

    You’re forgetting the element of reasonableness. Even if you’re legitimately traumatized and terrified of people with red hair, you’re not allowed to shoot them solely on those grounds.

    I assume you agree, and so you’ve internalized some positions about the reasonableness and imminence of the threats on Kyle’s life, but they still need to demonstrate those to the jury (and resist state’s attempts to disprove them beyond a reasonable doubt).

Andrew, the PBS stream is showing the videos.

AnAdultInDiapers | November 11, 2021 at 12:06 pm

Andrew watch a different stream. I am getting the videos on the one I’m watching.

One was slow motion of Huber hitting Rittenhouse with the skateboard, it falling to the ground and Rittenhouse running away from him.

Another was a slow motion from just before the kick to the face to moments after Grosskreutz was shot.

That slow motion shows very clearly Rittenhouse lowering his rifle after shooting Huber and raising it again when Grosskreutz moved towards him lowering his hands.

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to AnAdultInDiapers. | November 11, 2021 at 12:14 pm

    Will confirm. Based on your comment I decided to check out today’s PBS stream, since we were watching theirs yesterday, and it shows the videos (In Dr. Black’s Input-Ace tool).

Russ from Winterset | November 11, 2021 at 12:07 pm

Dammit. With all this testimony, now I have the mental image of Binger as Kevin Costner playing Jim Garrison in JFK.

“Back….and to the left”

“Back …and to the left”

“Back….and to the left”

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

One of the characteristics of the impact that visual images have on the human mind is that they go directly through to the limbic system of the brain, bypassing the faculties of critical judgement. That’s why visual advertising and propaganda has such a powerful effect. So just playing the videos, as is being done here, with no simultaneous verbal commentary is more like having the jury witness the events (somewhat) as they would have, had they been on the scene. A good bit different than the way depiction of the events is usually done in a trial. Wonder how the overall impression of “what happened” would look to the jury if they just strung appropriate videos together in a single stream (rather than chopped up into disjointed individual video segments).

This defense attorney is terrible at telling a story.

Binger blah blah blah Black

AnAdultInDiapers | November 11, 2021 at 12:28 pm

Holy crap. Binger just asked for slow motion zoomed footage of the Grosskreutz shooting. Utter clarity that Rittenhouse didn’t shoot until the pistol was directly pointed at his head.

At least Binger continues to be tedious.

Defense didnt / couldnt do much with Mr. Black, but not sure what the current point being belabored is attempting to make.

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to 59Apache. | November 11, 2021 at 12:38 pm

    My interpretation is that he’s operating entirely on spite at this point. Richards asked him for reports from the officer that provided the slowed down videos Binger used on prosecution this morning, and that put a bug up his ass to do the same thing to Richards. Binger being Binger, he did so in as annoying a manner as humanly possible.

Next, Binger will request that the witness mentally calculate the speed of light through murky sea water, allowing for the diffraction properties of the medium, of course.

Hot witness alert!

    guyjones in reply to OnePingOnly. | November 11, 2021 at 12:36 pm

    She’s totally cognizant of it, too, LOL — tossing her hair around, every ten seconds. A little vain, but, that’s okay — we all have our vanities, LOL>

Officer Bray can arrest me at any time, for any alleged offense. I will not resist and I will dutifully comply with all of her commands. Finally, a ray of sunshine amidst the darkness of this depressing trial.

Does Wisconsin not limit cross examination to the scope of direct?

So, if KR cleared a jam with a spent round, there would be tool marks on the casing. Ask for this …

What was the point of that cross-examination? So he could mention “AR-15” again and correct another witness for speaking over him (“for the benefit of the court reporter)?

Based upon my astute observations of Mrs. Rittenhouse’s stares at Binger, Esq’s. back, he does not want to meet her on any street, any day, at any time.

The defense may have missed on that one. If the jam was of an unspent round, it would presumably be a “stovepipe” failure, with the bolt trapping the partially unejected casing, thus causing damage to the exterior of the casing. Unless the prosecution could show damage on the side of a casing, it can’t support that a jam occurred to an unspent round.

    ChrisMallory in reply to A Thinker. | November 11, 2021 at 2:35 pm

    An unspent round will not cause a stovepipe stoppage. Stovepipes are empty cases that do not fully eject and are hung up in the port, usually with the open end of the case sticking out, looking like a stovepipe. If your gun is ejecting unfired rounds in the act of firing, you have problems.

    An unspent round stoppage will usually be a failure to feed (or failure to return to battery) or a double feed. Damage could be to the nose of the bullet or to the case wall or no damage at all if it is a simple failure to feed.

      Midfiaudiophile in reply to ChrisMallory. | November 11, 2021 at 3:50 pm

      I think you’re missing the context, which is some meaningless game defense and prosecution are playing surrounding an apparent malfunction Kyle had with his rifle. Prosecution claims that Kyle “re-racked” his rifle at some point prior to shooting Grosskreuz. There were no unfired .223 cartridges found at the scene. As such, if a malfunction did, in fact, occur, it’s far more likely to have been a fired cartridge failing to eject than an unfired cartridge failing to feed,

      What that means to the overall case? I haven’t the faintest idea.

        ChrisMallory in reply to Midfiaudiophile. | November 11, 2021 at 6:31 pm

        And calling it a “stovepipe” is incorrect. A stovepipe is an extraction/ejection failure, typically not involving an unfired round.
        I was commenting on the comment, not the legal wrangling. That was all the context I need.

So, it appears the prosecution is trying to say that Rittenhouse’s gun jammed, and that it could have been a spent shell casing that jammed it. Certainly, that can happen, but when it does, the spent casing in question does not get away unscathed. It would have a mark, or even a dent on the casing. You would be able to examine the casings picked up at the crime scene and determine whether or not they were previously jamming the rifle.

    A Thinker in reply to RabidMongoose. | November 11, 2021 at 12:49 pm

    Ayup. I think the prosecution wants to say that KR pilled the trigger at GG before he pulled back, trying to shoot him before seeing the gun, then cleared a jam, then pulled the trigger again. I think the pistol was visible the whole time, so at best it would impeach KR’s testimony? But absent the shell with toolmarks, the jam remains unproven.

      Midfiaudiophile in reply to A Thinker. | November 11, 2021 at 12:58 pm

      If he did clear a jam, it would have happened during the period when the guy in the blue windbreaker and white shirt is blocking the view from that camera? It doesn’t look to me like either of KR’s hands moved in that brief moment in the slowed down footage.

      I also don’t see why KR would have to lie about it. There are ways to tell if you’ve got a stovepipe without pulling the trigger.

Interestingly this would be the witness they planned to call last, according to their planning yesterday.

Is it odd that a self defense expert can’t testify for the defense in a self defense case?

Wow, so this guy had potentially exculpatory evidence that the police asked for?

Occasional Thinker | November 11, 2021 at 1:05 pm

During a firearms self defense I attended one of the instructors spoke on muscle memory. An example he gave was of an individual who was dedicated to dry fire practice. He had developed a muscle memory to cock the pistol for each shot and during live fire practice he continued to cycle the slide after each trigger pull, just as he did in dry fire. Pistol was functioning properly with the result being an unfired round being ejected for each shot fired.

Unspent .40 round and Glock .40. Muscle memory to cycle slide before pulling trigger? Sound of slide cycling from pistol, not AR?

What is his web site? I missed it

This whole idea of video manipulation is stupid, besides the attempt to manipulate with the ipad

    OnePingOnly in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 1:36 pm

    Yeah, there is a distinct difference between joining together, front to end, two videos taken from different sources (as was the case with the last witness) and a manipulation of a video (pinch to zoom) that alters the presentation via adding or blending of pixels as is the case of the iPad dispute. Binger’s grasping at straws.

Binger is about to get another whipping…

Russ from Winterset | November 11, 2021 at 1:16 pm

Here comes the boom.

Nothing mentioned about the sling.

Law firm bias? Not sure what the judge meant by limiting something about the law firm.

So, if the judge considers the law firm as an issue, does it mean that all of Drew Hernandez’s testimony will be ruled out of the case?

He was very good on the stand.

    59Apache in reply to lurker9876. | November 11, 2021 at 1:32 pm

    No. It is only fodder for Binger to try and impeach for bias (e.g., all defense witnesses got same lawyer, so none can be trusted).

    Given the primary weight of the evidence here is video and picture evidence, there doesnt seem to be much utility in these questions, any bias is not really relevant if the video shows what it shows.

    That said, as we have all seen, Binger is not one to let the opportunity to needlessly belabor a point go to waste.

A closely watched door.

Please tell me that the defense is planning to call another self-defense expert who can talk about…oh, maybe…the elements of self-defense??!!!

Judge: “This isn’t a political trial!”

Binger: — smirks and inclines head —

Not sure if anyone else saw that, somewhere around 1:05E/12:05C. Shocked, but not, to see that sentiment openly displayed.

The credibility that I’d like assessed is that of DA Binger. Watching him question not only Kyle Rittenhouse but now Drew Hernandez, I can’t help but wonder if he isn’t more aligned with ANTIFA and BLM then the Law and Citizen’s of the State of WI. I was suspect when I saw a grown man with a weird “porn stash” and a faux-hawk but his behavior is over the top.

    LetsGoBrandon in reply to WillS68. | November 11, 2021 at 1:51 pm

    Well, just look at who is not on trial…

    Ben Kent in reply to WillS68. | November 11, 2021 at 2:08 pm

    Yes – I suspected the same. He seems to have so much animus toward the Defendant and to be overly vested in winning this case. Seems that for him, it’s not a search for truth and justice but an attempt to achieve some pre-set goal.

    The fact that he is willing to risk his law license and career on this case with multiple inappropriate actions.

    The kind of behavior of an ideologue. I suspect he is closet ANTIFA.

Don’t shake your head towards the witness’ answers!!

Another unhinged lunatic speaks:

Keith Olbermann
After the prearranged acquittal, @TheJusticeDept needs to pursue federal charges against the vigilante murderer Kyle Rittenhouse – and this utterly compromised “judge” Bruce Schroeder #ProsecuteJudgeSchroeder

    Ben Kent in reply to Juris Doctor. | November 11, 2021 at 2:19 pm


    Best way to determine if someone is a blinded Leftist Ideologue is to ask their opinion on this case. If they say Kyle has to go to JAIL – you know they are mindless ideologues. They don’t think for themselves and just tout the Leftist media talking points. Anyone who watches the video and knows something about the testimony could not say with conviction that Kyle should be convicted. Those who do make such statement reveal not only ignorance and stupidity – but a willingness to bend to the propaganda of the radical left.

    Now we know why Olbermann is a washed up has-been

      richtrue in reply to Ben Kent. | November 11, 2021 at 4:32 pm

      It seems rather bizarre to watch the trial, and see the video clips of Rittenhouse getting attacked, and hear the absurd characterizations from the leftist media. Somehow, this ideology, which isn’t really all that great to begin with, has led people to completely ignore what they see with their own eyes. Propaganda- it’s real and it works.

    I NEVER liked Olbermann even before he careened into political bloviating. Thought he was vastly overrated as a sports “reporter”.

They are pushing for the feds to destroy this kid. They will throw him in with the jan6 protesters and beat the f/&k out of him

Binger starting out strong getting admonished by the judge once again to stop being a sleaze-bag.

What is the point of this?

Completely irrelevant to the defense.

Binger wasting time again.

AnAdultInDiapers | November 11, 2021 at 2:38 pm

Umm. Did Binger just name a witness? Or was he talking to one of the court staff?

ADA is a putz and everything he is asking about is irrelevant to overcoming self defense.

Binger you lying dork. Journalists inject their personal opinions in their reporting all the time. Ever watch CNN, MSNBC and yes, even Fox News?

GTF outta here.

Midfiaudiophile | November 11, 2021 at 2:47 pm

Come on, Drew. Just be honest. McGinniss is your professional competition, and you didn’t want him to have footage of something that you didn’t. Not that any of this testimony is particularly relevant to the case, except letting Binger work out his anger issues with anyone that said something he didn’t like.

Judge Norton is desperately trying to get this case to the jury w/o a mistrial. He is not going to do anything but throw it all in the jury lap.

    AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Elzorro. | November 11, 2021 at 2:52 pm

    Who is Judge Norton? I thought the judge in the Rittenhouse trial was Schroeder.

    But anyway, isn’t that the judge’s job?

      Judge Schroeder looks a bit like Ed Norton? Binger, Esq., looks like Alice?

        AnAdultInDiapers in reply to thetaqjr. | November 11, 2021 at 3:37 pm

        Wtf? No, the judge does not look like Ed Norton, and even if he does, he’s clearly not Ed Norton.

        What’s wrong with people that they have to try and rename everybody based on some twisted assumed likeness? Did I accidentally load 4chan or something?

[The Binger theory]: So Mr. Rittenhouse, are you saying you felt justified in attempting to murder Mr. Grosskreutz even BEFORE you knew his aim was accurate at 3 feet away and BEFORE the hammer struck the round in his chamber with WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING that round had a functioning primer???!

    AnAdultInDiapers in reply to xnycp. | November 11, 2021 at 2:53 pm

    It wasn’t asked in the trial, so they maybe did, but they needed to ask the forensic expert whether the 9mm round found in the chamber and/or on the ground (both have been testified) had a hammer indentation where it had been attempted to be fired.

      Maybe Binger did not want to ask?

      And the defense did not feel it is relevant?

        jagibbons in reply to lurker9876. | November 11, 2021 at 3:13 pm

        Whether or not the aggressor fired or even attempted to fire (i.e. failed to pull the trigger properly or the firearm misfired/malfunctioned) is irrelevant to self-defense. That he had a gun and it was pointed at Rittenhouse is sufficient for a reasonable person to believe, given the totality of circumstances, that firing in self defense is justified.

          AnAdultInDiapers in reply to jagibbons. | November 11, 2021 at 3:34 pm

          Legally I believe you’re right, and I do entirely agree with you.

          I’ve also noticed Binger inferring that Rittenhouse shot at people that hadn’t already fired at him, as though this was somehow relevant. Being able to demonstrate a failed attempt to shoot him supports the defence.

          That was entirely my point. I was being sarcastic about the absurd lengths the prosecution was implying KR should have gone through before , more-then-reasonably concluding he was in fear for his life!

        LetsGoBrandon in reply to lurker9876. | November 11, 2021 at 3:17 pm

        Defense likely knew the answer from the gal they had testify today.

Looks like the Defense is read to rest.

Maybe jury gets charged on Monday ?

Closing arguments tomorrow (Friday) ?

Another blue check hot take….

Defendants are not allowed to have use of force experts:

Roy Austin, Jr.
Allowing a civilian who shoots someone to call a use of force expert is a joke. That’s actually what juries are for.

Midfiaudiophile | November 11, 2021 at 3:13 pm

Is Binger actually a moron? This whole cross is harming Binger’s own case (ie. that Kyle should reasonably have seen everything that’s visible on the enhanced videos).

Wow…Binger is reaching. So far Black’s answers are not enough to open that door allowing Binger to introduce some new modified video.

A question for Andrew Branca:

Assume that Gaige Grosskreutz killed Kyle, could Gaige successfully argue self-defense?

    A Thinker in reply to ParkRidgeIL. | November 11, 2021 at 3:33 pm

    I’m not Andrew, but I think he would have a much harder time. Kyle wasn’t a threat to him until he (GG) pointed a gun at Kyle, such that it would be easy to argue that GG provoked Kyle’s aiming a gun at him. Especially since they spoke without incident moments before GG aimed his gun at Kyle.

    mbecker908 in reply to ParkRidgeIL. | November 11, 2021 at 3:37 pm

    In Kenosha he wouldn’t have to argue self-defense. He would not have been detained, let alone charged.

    fast182 in reply to ParkRidgeIL. | November 11, 2021 at 3:59 pm

    I saw this example recently, and it may have been from Mr. Branca: imagine an active shooter situation, and inside the building are two legally armed citizens. One citizen shoots the other citizen, on the mistaken belief that he was the active shooter. The test is whether the citizen shooter had a reasonable belief, given the totality of the circumstances, that the second citizen was a threat?

    For GG to claim self defense, he would have to show a reasonable belief that KR was a threat to others, which might be a difficult claim when KR was actively running away from GG and the crowd.

    A big part of KR’s innocence is that he was actively running away from both attacks.

Good Grief does the jury have to watch all this Mumbo Jumbo? Lame presentation by Richards this is way in the weeds.

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to Elzorro. | November 11, 2021 at 3:26 pm

    I disagree. For one thing, it shows the way a real video investigator will look at evidence, rather than simply “pinching and dragging the screen on an iPhone”.

    His honesty and knowledge of the subject matter comes across, even arguing with defense counsel when he says something materially incorrect.

    Besides, it’s not a real trial if you don’t learn something potentially useful from a witness. For example, “Having an enlarged heart is a good thing”.

      Yes, we learned a lot from the Chauvin trial, didn’t we? Having an enlarged heart is good, having 90% blocked arteries is great, having off-the-charts blood pressure is nothing to worry about, swallowing your speedball stash has no significant effect on your heart, and if you don’t like the ME’s original conclusions, just get some lefty “activists” to threaten to destroy his reputation and career until he changes his report to say what you want!

Norton hears defense to rest Judge is jubilant. He is going to get it to the jury!!

Both lawyers are tired and closings will be important.
If they have to argue instructions the rest of today they’ll have very little time to put together closings. And, as human beings, they want a bit of rest to put their best effort into a big closing.

But the other wildcard (seemingly appreciated by all counsel and the Court) is that giving the jury the case on Friday afternoon is an invitation to a “quick verdict” i.e. not guilty on all counts. If they get the case on Monday they’ll likely be more patient to sift through things and maybe find a nugget for the prosecution (not deserved, but just as a matter of structure).

Hence the defense attorney, while personally wanting a bit of rest over the weekend, is mindful that if they need to press ahead it likely favors the defense.

    Voyager in reply to xnycp. | November 11, 2021 at 3:49 pm

    Quick can go both ways. They could easily just decide to find him guilty on all counts and make it an appeals court problem instead of their own.

      xnycp in reply to Voyager. | November 11, 2021 at 4:31 pm

      Doubt it in this case. I would think the vast majority of jurors have already made up their minds for the defense given overwhelming evidence of (filmed) justified self defense. It’s the few, potentially ideological hold outs that may be a problem. If a quick verdict, the few aren’t going to convince the many in short order. If there there is pressure to “get home for the weekend” then if there’s a strong majority in favor of one side, the “holdouts” on a jury will often knuckle under and agree. Not saying I know for a fact this is where the jury is, but I try cases for a living and the “quick verdict” dynamic is well known in the field, and tends to favor the side with most votes going in , and with the simplest verdict sheet to fill out in their favor.

Headlines on Yahoo right now

Rittenhouse defense incorrectly claims iPad pinch-to-zoom modifies footage

So, let’s say we have a rogue jury and they convict on all counts (not likely in my opinion, but it could happen). Imagine the fury if the judge sentences KR to time served.

    mbecker908 in reply to LetsGoBrandon. | November 11, 2021 at 3:41 pm

    Even better if the judge sets aside the verdict and declares Kyle not-guilty.

    Hindsight is 20-20, and I’m neither a lawyer or a jury consultant (and haven’t been at a Holiday Inn Express in decades) but I’m thinking that he’d have been better to request a bench trial. I think the judge dislikes Binger enough to find Kyle (and maybe Charlie Manson if Binger was trying him) not guilty. 😁

I expected far more from Dr. Black.

    LetsGoBrandon in reply to Chewbacca. | November 11, 2021 at 3:47 pm

    Looks like the defense screwed the pooch on that one letting Binger draft the instruction and not having the witness review it for content. About the only score Binger got in on this trial IMHO.

Watch: MSNBC Host And Guest Say Rittenhouse’s Trial Is “White Privilege On Steroids”

AnAdultInDiapers | November 11, 2021 at 4:03 pm

Much respect to Chirafisi for using a whiteboard to demonstrate visually the issue, in such a way that the (non-technical) judge immediately understood it.

Straight to the heart of the matter in a very accessible form.

Guy has an arts degree.. zero percent chance he could understand the algorithm used for interpolation.

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to Smooth23. | November 11, 2021 at 4:08 pm

    I’m sure that there’s existing case law about this subject. People blow up pictures all the time.

    Nobody in the courtroom understands this, not even Kraus. There are new pixels being generated, either they’re going to show up as white or some other color in the middle of the field of interest. Is this acceptable practice or not?

The main problem I see with the AMP5 software is that the image modification is so extensive that someone could cut and paste elements at the original resolution and then run the enhancement algorithm which would erase any trace of the original cut and paste.

It’s been bugging me the entire trial and I’ve finally figured it out. Chirafisi sounds like Howie Mandel.

Uncharged pickles – wow

My speculation at this point is a hung jury. I strongly suspect many jurors are afraid either for themselves or more rioting (or both). A few will demand conviction on all counts and a few will refuse any convictions based on the evidence. A “compromise” would be acquittal on the felonies and conviction on the “minor is possession” bullcrap charge which is later tossed.

Looks like the rebuttal of Armstrong isn’t working.

Does the Apple ecosystem have a tool for doing psuedo 3d images from stills?

Based on some of the earlier comments, I’m wondering if the prosecution has something like that that they wanted to make a 3d “representation” of the sequence for their closing?

I could easily see them wanting to be able to pull up an “enhanced” version of a photo they’ve separately entered into evidence and using an auto 3D scene generator to spin it about to try and show something that didn’t happen.

I could also see the judge asking the jury to go wait in the library immediately after that, but I would not put it past this ADA to try.

This is an example of people who do not understand the underlying technical aspects of a subject attempt to discuss what is in fact a technical issue. They misuse technical terms and get tangled up in their own knickers. I believe Dr. Black could provide a much more articulate explanation. I have come up against this in my career and it is, lets say, difficult.

    Midfiaudiophile in reply to Fiat Justitia. | November 11, 2021 at 4:18 pm

    I sort of feel like both sides know more than they’re pretending to and are trying to take advantage of the elderly judge. At the same time, they’re talking about a tiny number of pixels enlarged massively.

    For example, who’s to say that DeBruin’s images were enlarged via an algorithm. They could easily be true to the pixel prints, depending on the resolution of his camera.

      AnAdultInDiapers in reply to Midfiaudiophile. | November 11, 2021 at 4:21 pm

      They’re also conflating enlargement with interpolation.

      xxx is a three pixel image.
      XXX is the same three pixel image, enlarged.
      xxyxy is the same three pixel image, enlarge through interpolation.

      The prosecution claim that the interpolated image is the same as the original. The defence are asking where the hell those Ys came from.

Midfiaudiophile | November 11, 2021 at 4:20 pm

Response to Kraus: The topic under discussion in Black’s testimony was not a super-tiny portion of a video of questionable resolution trying to be used to assert a specific debatable fact in a court of law.

Listening to these characters attempt to discuss image resizing and interpolation is excruciating.

If an interpolation algorithm is used in a resize then BY DEFINITION you’re adding information. Only way I can think of to resize without adding info by interpolation would be to resize both rows and columns buy some integral multiplier and replicate pixels exactly that many times. Of course that would be equivalent to a simple zoom.

Of course the ‘original’ image recorded is a compression of what comes of the CMOS or whatever and so already a distortion.

All the defense really needs to do is show an image ‘processed’ another way that doesn’t show whatever the prosecution claims it shows to cast doubt that it necessarily shows anything trustworthy at all.