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Sparks Fly During MSNBC Joy Reid’s ‘Interview’ of Critical Race Theory Opponent Chris Rufo

Sparks Fly During MSNBC Joy Reid’s ‘Interview’ of Critical Race Theory Opponent Chris Rufo

“What you’ve done in tonight’s segment is exactly what I’m fighting against. I’m fighting against the manipulation of language,” Rufo told Reid in what was a contentious interview where she barely let him speak.

It’s been an eventful last week for conservative writer and leading Critical Race Theory opponent Chris Rufo.

The Washington Post‘s hit piece on him received a lot of attention, especially after he pointed out that it contained multiple errors that undercut their flimsy case against him. He got them to concede on a couple of them.

Rufo’s process demonstrated how conservatives facing dishonest attacks and attempts at cancellation by the Usual Suspects should respond: By calling them out, bringing the receipts, and not backing down.

MSNBC’s Joy Reid has become a critic of Rufo in recent weeks. In response, he would post tweets indicating an interest in going on her show to lay out the facts.

Initially, Reid’s response to his suggestion that they debate Critical Race Theory was to suggest he was making “white man demands” of her time:

But obviously, things changed at some point because Rufo appeared on Reid’s show Wednesday night for a roughly 10-minute segment. Reid was defensive, pretending like she was an expert on CRT. She barely let Rufo get in a word edgewise, accusing him of manufacturing the issue as others in the media have.

When Rufo said that Reid should allow him to respond, she accused him of using talking points even though she had talking points of her own she kept referring to throughout the exchange.

To give you an idea of how fair and balanced it was, here’s what things looked like at one point:

But when he did manage to get the opportunity to speak in the middle of her repeated interruptions, Rufo made a few good points, with this one being key:

And here’s the bottom line Joy. What you’ve done in tonight’s segment is exactly what I’m fighting against. I’m fighting against the manipulation of language. I’m fighting against language deconstruction.


And I’m trying to basically load off of these euphemistic terms with subversive content, because otherwise you just say whatever you want and then you back away from it and dance around it.

It’s not going to happen. Parents all over this country, they know what’s happening in schools. They know what’s happening in public institutions and you’re seeing people revolt against this divisive identity politics. And you can dance all you want but you’re not going to stop people from understanding what’s happening in the classrooms.

The full transcript can be read here. Watch the interview below:

Unfortunately, as you can see from the video clip, it wasn’t as substantive as I suspect Rufo would have liked it to be. Because she’d hardly let him get a word out, he dissected her arguments in a Twitter thread after the show.

But while the interview was not very substantive, what it did reaffirm is how utterly afraid race-baiting crackpots like Reid and other Critical Race Theory proponents are about the truth getting out:

And that’s why it’s critical to be willing to go into the lion’s den to try and make your case on issues like these. Because even if the host is unwilling to listen, there might be a few in the audience willing to listen to and consider the message.

— Stacey Matthews has also written under the pseudonym “Sister Toldjah” and can be reached via Twitter. —


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Critical Racists’ Theory presumes diversity [dogma] (i.e. color judgment), inequity, and exclusion, breeds adversity.

And, because I’m feeling particularly sympathetic to Reid’s rabid diversity, where once Nazis brayed Jew privilege, the neo-Nazis bray White privilege. One step forward, two steps backward.

JusticeDelivered | June 24, 2021 at 6:58 pm

White privilege is all about footing the bill to both support large numbers of nonproductive, followed by having to foot the bill to imprison them.

    Wow that’s an ignorant statement. White privilege is about whites in general having a more advantageous starting point than blacks. It’s really simple. Given the socio economic conditions that’s a fairly well supported position.

      Doctor-Elect Disco Stu_ in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 6:42 am

      Yeah, that was probably true 2 or 3 generations ago.

      Since then, too many expensive special benefits provided and wasted.
      Too many special opportunities opened up, then ignored or dismissed

      Instread we get the degraded & degrading contemporary culture of victimhood privilege.

        Right so you are saying that the socio economic conditions of blacks has now equalised. Yeah I’m pretty sure the evidence says directly the opposite. Can you point to any research that supports your position?

          The Friendly Grizzly in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 8:36 am

          I don’t see where he said anything of the kind.

          20keto20 in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 9:33 am

          Ironically, the socio-economic situation of many if not most blacks was drastically improving under the Trump economy. It has definitely taken a quick reverse under the Harris/Biden administration. Much of this is due to the policies and agenda passed by Pelosi’s House. Someone needs to examine her motives when looking through an Democrat un-filtered lens. Through the lens of Democrats, they were the ones who passed the Civil Rights Act, they were the ones who passed the Voting Rights Act, they were the ones who brought more people of color into the middle class and out of poverty. REAL history belies those three points. That is the biggest reason to rewrite history via the 1619 Project–so that it fits the Democrat narrative and doesn’t reflect truth.
          As for Joy, she is about as close minded as any other CNN talking head. She accuses those not in lock step with the DNC of having talking points. Once again, Alinsky is in full force at CNN!

          mark311 in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 4:39 pm


          There isn’t any data to actually support any view on socio economic conditions for anyone during the Biden administration. Well the trend of improving conditions for blacks did improve under Trump in part due to the strong economy inherited from Obama however that has probably been severely impact by covid and given Trump’s inept handling of covid any good done is likely to have been undone.

          Garion60 in reply to mark311. | June 30, 2021 at 12:15 pm

          The socio-economic conditions of blacks is a result of embracing or rejecting opportunity. It’s the same for any/all ‘groups’ that folks like to glom others into. That’s wrong, BTW. Inner city communities or rural communities or suburban communities either take pride in themselves and thrive or they don’t and deteriorate. But it comes from WITHIN, not from government payouts for doing nothing, free food, free housing, free everything. FREE is a non-incentive since it doesn’t drive supply or demand. America is about EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, NOT EQUAL OUTCOME…successful people of all ‘colors’ recognize this, pursue its rewards if/when it’s meaningful, and enjoy those rewards from their INDIVIDUAL EFFORTS. Some communities lack all of that…and then go burn/loot/pillage those who try to make things better WITHIN vs. WITHOUT those communities. Very SAD!

        Culture should be front and center of these arguments when it comes to social and economic success. Cultures that promote education, family stability, and lawfulness produce successful individuals.

      Milhouse in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 8:52 am

      No, it is not. For one thing, there’s no “in general” about it. White privilege is the idea that simply being white gives a person an inherent advantage over anyone who isn’t white. And that is just not true.

        mark311 in reply to Milhouse. | June 25, 2021 at 1:38 pm

        Well it clearly is true, lower rates of poverty, higher education levels, more property. Just about any socio economic metric will indicate that whites hold positions of privilege. Can you think of a metric where blacks have a structural advantage?

          AnAdultInDiapers in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 6:30 pm

          Tell a poor white child that they don’t have a lower rate of poverty than Lebron James.

          Then stop being a silly racist.

          As for a metric, sure: Police are less likely while interacting with a black person to kill them, than they are a white person with whom they’re interacting. That’s US Government statistics by the way.

          mark311 in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 8:02 pm


          Making a false comparison isn’t going to help your argument. Your going to have to do a lot better than that in order to address a question regarding structural differences. Try addressing a structural issue not some random anecdotal false equivalence

          Actually the stats don’t support what you say I quote

          “The rate of fatal police shootings in the United States shows large differences based on ethnicity. Among Black Americans, the rate of fatal police shootings between 2015 and May 2021 stood at 36 per million of the population, while for White Americans, the rate stood at 15 fatal police shootings per million of the population”

          So no I’m afraid you are completely wrong.

          AnAdultInDiapers in reply to mark311. | June 26, 2021 at 6:54 am

          It’s not a false comparison. It’s a simple fact that there are white people suffering poverty every bit as bad as any other demographic. Stop denying them and stop telling them they’re privileged because you’re being racist.

          As for my statistic, it’s correct and I stand by it. Your statistic reflects that the police have far more interactions with black people than with white people.

          I’ll leave you to research why that may be.

          mark311 in reply to mark311. | June 26, 2021 at 10:43 am


          The fact that white poverty exists isn’t question. The question is what structural advantages or disadvantages have there been based on race. Can white folk claim to have been enslaved for many,many years. Can white folk claim to have been segregated into poorer districts , can whites claim that laws were specifically targeted against them etc etc. The answer to that in totality is no whites can’t whilst blacks can.

          Even the claim that whites have equal levels of poverty isn’t supported by the stats, the stats overwhelmingly make the case that blacks have a poverty issue.

          You clearly don’t understand stats. In order to make it a fair comparison you have to make the numbers equivalent in this case by population and when you do that it’s abundantly clear that you are absolutely wrong.

          Again making a claim like blacks have more interactions with police needs to be contextualized why is that the case. Is it because for example that police officer tend to stop and search blacks more using weed as an excuse even though statistically speaking white have been found to use more than blacks. Could it be that poverty and socio economic issues cause crime, could it be that historic segregation means that poor quality housing has been the only housing blacks have been able to get. Could it be that the US criminal justice system is rubbish and tends to exacerbate poverty issues, could it be that medical bankcrupcy is an issue for poor communities setting back families who either choose to pay a medical bill or college. There are so many factors it’s hard to know where to start.

          @dr Dave

          Can Asians make the same claim as to historic discrimination. No. There is no doubt that Asians have overcome rascism but the Asian population grew out of emancipation of blacks. The Chinese workers were imported precisely because blacks were suddenly free and demanding wages.

          As for Trump inheriting a strong economy that’s just a fact. I’m not clear what’s silly about having a context that explains a continuing trend.


          Can you actually add anything of substance? You don’t seem to be addressing any of the central points at all.

          Milhouse in reply to mark311. | June 27, 2021 at 6:35 pm

          No, Mark, it is not true. It is in fact a load of bollocks. Being white has absolutely nothing to do with the statistical differences you refer to. There are many poor people who are white and many rich people who are not. There are many non-white people with more education than many white people. Being white gives a person no advantage at all with regard to poverty, education, or property. (How the third and first of your three items differ is another question.)

          There are no “structural advantages” for any race over any other. And AnAdultInDiapers’ comparison is not false, it’s 100% correct. Even if Lebron James were the only rich, educated (albeit stupid and dishonest) person who is not white (which he isn’t) his existence would disprove your claim.

          And AnAdutInDiapers is 100% correct that black people who fight the police and resist arrest are slightly less likely to be killed than white people who do the same. That is a fact. I don’t agree with him that it’s a structural advantage for black people, because the difference is too small to be statistically significant.

          The fact is that no matter whether you are white or black, if you obey the law, cooperate with the police when approached, don’t resist them, fight them, or threaten them, then you are much safer from a policeman than from a random person. And if you commit crimes, thus attracting police attention, and then refuse to cooperate, refuse to be arrested, fight the police, and put them in reasonable fear of harm, you are likely to suffer, and rightly so.

          The fact that black people are statistically more likely than white people to be killed by police is ENTIRELY a matter of so many black people being criminals, and so many black people (whether they’re criminals or not) thinking they have a right to resist arrest, to fight police, to refuse legitimate orders, etc.

          There is no racism whatsoever involved in it, and anyone who claims there is, is either incredibly uninformed or deliberately lying. I do you the courtesy of including you in the “incredibly uninformed”.

          Milhouse in reply to mark311. | June 27, 2021 at 6:38 pm

          The fact that white poverty exists isn’t question.

          The fact that it exists proves that being white does not save a person from poverty. Being white does not make it less likely for a person to be poor. Whether a person is rich or poor depends on factors that have nothing to do with their skin color. In general, being poor is not usually some calamity that happens to a person, it’s far more often a result of their own choices.

          mark311 in reply to mark311. | June 29, 2021 at 9:24 am


          Of course the comparison is false, how does citing one person situation tell us anything. To make it a comparison you’d have to compare on a group by group basis so for example number of black millionaires per x of population vs the same but white millionaires etc etc

          “And AnAdutInDiapers is 100% correct that black people who fight the police and resist arrest are slightly less likely to be killed than white people who do the same. That is a fact.” Source please, I’ve seen very little evidence that supports that position, in fact what I’ve seen supports the exact opposite position.

          “The fact that black people are statistically more likely than white people to be killed by police is ENTIRELY a matter of so many black people being criminals”!

          Even if it were granted that this is true its a gross simplification on the issues. The CRT narrative is that structural issues has caused this increase in crime. For example if you are born in a high crime area then the chances are that you will get involved in crime yourself and this relates to historic segregation.

        Dr.Dave in reply to Milhouse. | June 25, 2021 at 8:55 pm

        The answer is a little more complicated than looking at current social economical stats.
        Why do Asian immigrants who come here do much better as a whole than any racial group?
        Could it be they have the lowest divorce rate. Highest rate of involved fathers. The lowest high-school drop out rates. You can’t simply look at stats without looking at root causes. I would go as far as saying a welfare system that incouraged fatherless house holds actually impeded the progress of Black’s.. white privileges is not a root cause in any shape or form because the corrective action is in its self racist and the courts have ruled recently against the Bidens racist programs. I would say all is a mute point as you believe Trump just rode the strong economy wave of Obama……how silly.

      Kreemerz in reply to mark311. | June 25, 2021 at 11:23 pm

      Women have more more “advantageous starting point” than men. Blacks have more of an advantageous starting point than some whites. You want to get even? I see. Well, you deserve to sit at the back of the bus. While the rest of us are sitting where ever.

      lichau in reply to mark311. | June 29, 2021 at 8:05 pm

      As my childhood home. Intended as a two car garage, there were seven people in it. No interior walls. No power or water for a time.

      But, we were actually “advantaged”. My parents absolutely rejected the idea that we were “poor” or “disadvantaged”. Of the five kids, I think there are at least a dozen college degrees.

Why even engage in a bad faith debate?

    The Friendly Grizzly in reply to Danny. | June 25, 2021 at 8:37 am

    A desperate scratching and clawing for ratings?

      There is no doubt, Ms. Reid won the air quote contest in a shutout. It was a virtual no contest. When you have no argument, claw the air.

      I’m not going to count, but my impression is that she clawed the air once a minute, so
      Joy 9, Rufo zip.

      With her hands raised as if she were defending that white, disingenuous smile from something, her fingers all gnarled up, she’s the image of a gleeful bird of prey, a vulture in violent estrus, clutching a lump of bloody meat, grinning.

God she is annoying

“White Man Demands” – Joy Reid is so incredibly RACIST.

There was no call for that.

Her first, last, and only play – all day every day – is baseless accusations of racism. When, in reality, she’s the one that’s consumed with RACIST hate.

How do you know her comment was RACIST? Simply reverse the positions of these two people, and have the white guy say something about her like this. He’d be fired immediately. Would never be back on TV.

    DPtarmigan in reply to Aarradin. | June 30, 2021 at 2:59 pm

    Could you imagine if Rufu used the terms “Black Man demands”, “Black Proviledge” etc? This is an easy test of racial bigotry.

Very good interview for Rufo, and at the end Reid knows it and is mad.

Reid is correct, they don’t call all this stuff “critical race theory”. They have interlocking ideas that all mutually support each other, and if you accept any of them you probably accept the rest. (But they’re actually all wrong. I can prove lots of amazing things if I just assume 1 = 2.) It’s actually helpful to understand what Reid is saying. It helped us avoid traps at our recent school board meeting, so we weren’t stopped by the observation that they aren’t teaching CRT to our K-12 students.

But Rufo wins. He is fully entitled to take a phrase of “theirs”, like CRT, and recast it however he wants. Because THEY have made careers out of taking words of OURS and recasting them. “equity” “excellence” and other leftists “gay” “rainbow” and probably lots more that don’t come to mind. We need to learn from this tactic and use it against them.

I love what Rufo is doing. We should do more of it.

    healthguyfsu in reply to artichoke. | June 25, 2021 at 8:19 am

    Interlocking ideas that are incapable of standing on their own independent merit have another name….house of cards.

Reid actually makes an interesting point about “whiteness”. Maybe it’s true. But lately I hear “whiteness” referring to behaviors like linear thinking, being on time, etc. Things that black people value too, at least in Africa where being a black person isn’t a point of cultural difference.

I’d say that whiteness is a set of behaviors that everyone recognizes as valuable, but not everyone can achieve. Those who can’t do it complain bitterly about it and try to turn it into a bad name.

Yeah it wasn’t a good interview, I’d it’s frustrating when an interviewer doesn’t allow any depth in conversation. Probably why I prefer podcasts I guess. The format of a few minutes to discuss a deep subject seems pretty stupid. There isn’t enough time to develop any kind of depth or even realism with the positions.

I’m surprised and assume she’s disappointed that she let his “dance” comment go by without massive accusations of racism for it. Because you know, some black people dance sometimes….

legacyrepublican | June 25, 2021 at 11:29 am

I want a bumper sticker …

Teach LOVE, not CRT

96% of people killed by police are males. Using CRT logic they must really hate men.