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LIVE: Chauvin Trial Day 9 – State’s Evidence Begins to Align with the Defense Narrative of Innocence

LIVE: Chauvin Trial Day 9 – State’s Evidence Begins to Align with the Defense Narrative of Innocence

Yesterday state’s witnesses described lethal fentanyl in vehicles; today will they describe lethal fentanyl in Floyd?

Welcome to our ongoing coverage of the Minnesota murder trial of Derek Chauvin, over the in-custody death of George Floyd.  I am Attorney Andrew Branca for Law of Self Defense, providing guest commentary and analysis of this trial for Legal Insurrection.

Before we dive into the substance of today’s content, if you are among the thousands of folks new to me and my firm, Law of Self Defense, I’d like to offer each of you a complimentary copy of our best-selling book, “The Law of Self Defense: Principles,” a plain-English explanation of use-of-force law, for FREE. Normally the book is $25 + S&H, but if you’ll just cover the S&H cost of getting the book to you, we’ll cover the $25.  If you’re interested–and I hope you are!–just click here: FREE COPY Law of Self Defense: Principles Book.

Today begins the 9th day of the prosecution in the Chauvin trial presenting their case-in-chief to the jury, and from the perspective of this small-town lawyer things don’t appear to have been going well for the state so far.

Indeed, things appear to be degenerating for the state, and badly.

Followers of this trial will remember how the state began its narrative of guilt to the jury.  Lots of emotion, sorrow over the loss of George Floyd, a man struggling with demons but dearly loved by his family and community.  We had an entire series of bystander witnesses still exhibiting the shock of having watched Floyd apparently die in the street. Many of those witnesses openly sobbed and cried on the witness stand, some to the point where court had to be recessed to allow them to recover and continue their testimony.

Powerful stuff, on an emotional level.

But eventually the state ran out of sobbing  and crying bystander witnesses, and the prosecution’s narrative was obliged to begin talking about facts.  And the apparent trend to my eye is that the more the state talks about facts, the more their narrative of guilt begins to closely resemble the defense narrative of innocence.

From the state’s telling, fentanyl had nothing substantive to do with Floyd’s death. Sure, Floyd was an addict, but that wasn’t a factor to which we should attribute his death, but merely another reason to sympathize with the struggling Floyd, who was after all still a loved human being despite his addictions.  Don’t pay any attention to the drug narrative, that’s not what killed Floyd!

Rather, what killed Floyd was Derek Chauvin’s “blood choke” knee to Floyd’s neck. Or maybe it was a respiratory choke delivered by Chauvin’s knee to Floyd’s neck. Or maybe it was mechanical asphyxiation resulting from the pressure applied by all three officers holding Floyd prone. Or maybe it was positional asphyxia because they failed to put Floyd in the recovery position. Or maybe it was that the officers should have started chest compressions on the handcuffed, huge, and just-violent Floyd before EMS showed up. Or maybe, or maybe, or maybe … Does it really matter. Chauvin’s knee!!! Excessive force!!! Not a trained technique!!!

Unfortunately for the state, many of its own witnesses, especially its use-of-force and medical witnesses, whether existing MPD trainers or well-paid expert witnesses from out of town, have testified in ways that substantively undercut that narrative of the state.

So far in the state’s case we’ve heard the state’s own witnesses and experts testify that Chauvin’s knee was on Floyd’s back and shoulder blades, not his neck. We’ve heard them testify that not only was Chauvin’s force not excessive, he would have been privileged to use more force and declined to do so—a choice they characterized as de-escalation. We’ve seen photographs from MPD training materials showing officers being trained to place their knees on suspects in exactly the manner Chauvin had placed his knee on Floyd.None of that can be said to buttress the state’s still vague and ambiguous narrative of guilt.

Even now, 9 days in, we still don’t have an actual medical opinion of Floyd’s cause of death, other than cardiac arrest induced by apparent asphyxia.  Was that asphyxia caused by the officers charged in this case?  Perhaps.

Alternatively, is there an equally, or even more likely, explanation for Floyd’s death?  Perhaps the astonishing high levels of fentanyl in his system, and the fentanyl discovered (eventually) in both the Mercedes SUV Floyd was driving and the squad car from which Floyd achieved his violent escape.

After all, how does fentanyl kill? By depressing respiratory function. That is, by chemical induction of asphyxia. Which eventually, of course, will result in cardiac arrest.  Which is how Floyd died.

The more the case turns to drugs—not in the hypothetical sense of Floyd’s generalized and tragic life-long struggle with addiction, but in the specific sense that his body was full of a drug whose lethal effect was cessation of respiration—the more reasonable doubt is raised about the state’s claim that the causal factor in Floyd’s death was the officers charged in this case.

Yesterday we saw the state compelled to begin presenting witnesses—again, all state investigators or private scientists paid by the state—who provided concrete investigative, photographic, forensic, and chemical testimony about the lethal fentanyl found in both Floyd’s own vehicle and the squad car he fought his way out of. All of that moves the collective narrative away from Chauvin’s knee as a cause of Floyd’s death, and towards Floyd’s poorly made decision to hide his toxic drugs from police by ingesting them as being what killed him.

Soon—perhaps today—we’ll start hearing from the experts who will testify not just about the drugs found in Floyd’s vehicle and the squad car, but about the lethal levels of those drugs found in Floyd himself.

And that can only move the narrative of cause of death further from Chauvin’s knee and closer to Floyd effectively killing himself with a lethal overdose of fentanyl.

That can only raise even further reasonable doubt.

Juries are always dangerous and unpredictable things, and as a professional I know better than to place a wager on what a verdict might be.  That’s even more so the case when we have the dynamic of mob violence, rioting, looting, and arson hanging over this case, and a government unable or unwilling to meet its fundamental responsibility of securing the safety of its citizens and their property.

So there’s no way I’d be so bold as to say an acquittal in this case is certain, or even likely.

But on this 9th day of hearing the state make its best arguments, the prospects for acquittal look more, not less, likely each day.

That said, no one can know yet what this new day will bring from the state’s continued testimony of its witnesses and experts. Perhaps today will be the day that the state progresses closer to, rather than further from, a compelling narrative of Chauvin’s knee as the causal driver of Floyd’s death.

The best way to find out, of course, is to partake of our LIVE coverage of today’s trial proceedings, right here, with our live video feed and blogging throughout the day, followed by our end-of-day wrap-up of legal analysis and commentary of the day’s testimony this evening.

Here’s the live video feed of today’s trial proceedings:

Here’s today’s LIVE Blog commentary:

AFTERNOON

MORNING

 

Until next time, stay safe!

–Andrew

Attorney Andrew F. Branca

Law of Self Defense LLC

Attorney Andrew F. Branca’s legal practice has specialized exclusively in use-of-force law for thirty years.  Andrew provides use-of-force legal consultancy services to attorneys across the country, as well as near-daily use-of-force law insight, expertise, and education to lawyers and non-lawyers alike. He wrote the first edition of the “Law of Self Defense” in 1997, which you can now order in its current edition for just the price of shipping and handling by clicking here.  To know YOUR state’s use-of-force laws in an actionable way that will keep you safer physically and legally, take our state-specific advanced use of force class either streamed online or via a shipped DVD with a 100% no-question- asked money-back guarantee, here:  Law of Self Defense State Specific Use-Of-Force Class.

[Featured image is a screen capture from video of today’s court proceedings in MN v. Chauvin.]

 

 

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Comments


Good morning Mr. Branca. First, I just wanted to thank you for covering this case!

But primarily, I want to address the “moving knee” that you mentioned in your Day 8 Wrap-Up. I think we have two big questions here that lend themselves to each other and explain the moving knee. “Where was the knee?” and “What did the knee do?” A key assumption I have to mention here, that hasn’t been factually presented in court AFAIK, is that a knee pressing down on the back can induce / cause / exacerbate positional asphyxia. Pre-trial, we heard a LOT of talk about positional asphyxia and in my research I consistently found that pressure applied to the back “can result in positional asphyxia”. Example for the quote is linked below. Blackwell said in his opening that Officer Mackenzie would explain the risks of the knee on the back, and that Chauvin knew them. That didn’t happen from what I know, but I’m pretty confident the state wants a medical doctor to say it anyways.

https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/subject-updates/wbl/Advice%20on%20Positional%20Asphyxia%20FactSheet.pdf

My theory going in was that the prosecution would be arguing that the knee was somehow putting pressure on Floyd’s lungs, and that is what killed him. Blackwell almost confirmed this little pet theory of mine in his opening. Blackwell mentions the knee on the back more than the knee on the neck from my count. Everytime he mentions the neck, he includes the back. But he additionally talks about the knee on the back multiple times without mentioning the neck.

Transcript segments from opening, conclusion from me after segments.

Blackwell: “MR. DEREK CHAUVIN BETRAYED HIS BADGE WHEN HE USED EXCESSIVE AND UNREASONABLE FORCE UPON THE BODY OF MR. GEORGE FLOYD. THAT HE PUT HIS KNEES UPON HIS NECK AND HIS BACK, GRINDING AND CRUSHING …”

“…MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS YOU WILL SEE AS MR. FLOYD IS HANDCUFFED ON THE GROUND, 27 TIMES YOU WILL HEAR AND IN THE FOUR MINUTES AND 49 SECONDS I CAN’T BREATHE, PLEASE, I CAN’T BREATHE. YOU WILL SEE MR. CHAUVIN IS KNEELING ON HIS NECK AND BACK AND HAS ONE KNEE ON HIS NECK…”

“…COMPLETELY PASSED OUT. MR. CHAUVIN CONTINUES ON WITH HIS KNEE ON THE NECK, KNEE ON THE BACK. HE DOESN’T LET UP AND HE DOESN’T GET UP FOR THE REMAINING YOU CAN SEE…”

And as part of his conclusion in opening he falsely (imo) claimed “A knee on his back for 9 minutes .. [and] what impact it had on floyd’s life”

” WE ARE GOING TO SHOW YOU THAT PUTTING KNEES ON SOMEBODY’S NECK, MR. FLOYD’S, PUTTING A KNEE ON HIS BACK FOR NINE MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS WAS EMINENTLY DANGEROUS, AND HE DID IT WITHOUT REGARD TO WHAT IMPACT IT HAD ON MR. FLOYD’S LIFE.”

“AND GENTLEMEN, THAT MR. FLOYD FROM TIME TO TIME WAS HEAVING ON HIS RIGHT SHOULDER. THERE’S A REASON FOR THAT. MR. CHAUVIN IS ON HIS LEFT SIDE, HIS BACK AND HIS NECK.”

“WAS HAPPENING ON THE SCENE. THAT WAS MR. CHAUVIN WAS DOING HE WAS DOING DELIBERATELY. NOW, WHEN WE BRING THE EVIDENCE OF INTENT, IT ISN’T GOING TO COME IN AS A SANDWICH WITH THE FRONT SIDE AND BACK SIDE THAT SAYS THIS IS THE EVIDENCE OF INTENT AND THE BACK AND SAYS YEAH, YOU SAW IT. ”

Blackwell potentially mentioning cause of death as weight on the back as he closes “WILL TELL YOU THE REASON THAT YOU DON’T PUT PERSONS IN THE PRONE POSITION TO THAT WAY, LET ALONE WITH A MAN’S BODY WEIGHT ON TOP OF THEM, OR FOR NINE MINUTES 29 SECONDS, THE REASON YOU DON’T IS BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL TO OBSTRUCT THE AIRWAYS. .. ”

“THE STAND THAT PUTTING A MAN IN A PRONE POSITION WITH INCOMES BEHIND HIS BACK, SOMEBODY ON HIS NECK AND BACK PRESSING DOWN ON HIM , NINE MINUTES 29 SECONDS IS ENOUGH TO TAKE A LIFE. ”

“CHAUVIN. AT THE END OF THIS CASE WE WANT YOU TO FIND MR. CHAUVIN GUILTY FOR EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE AGAINST GEORGE FLOYD THAT WAS AN ASSAULT TO TAKE HIS LIFE AND IMMINENTLY DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR WITH ME ON THE NECK AND BACK AND NINE MINUTES 29 SECONDS WITHOUT REGARD FOR MR. FLOYD’S LIFE. WE ASK WE FIND HIM GUILTY MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE AND THIRD DEGREE AND SECOND DEGREE MANSLAUGHTER. THANK YOU.”

Blackwell “misspeaks” multiple times during opening that the knee was on the back for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. All of these minor observations have me pretty convinced that the prosecution was well aware they’d have to convince the jury the knee was on the back, and the weight from that is what killed GF. Either way, Blackwell makes a clear as day claim in opening that Chauvin had a knee on Floyd’s back for a long time and that was risking Floyd’s life.

In my view, the lack of damage to Floyd’s airway and neck essentially precludes the state from trying to say the knee blocked airflow at the neck. A knee on the back is a long known risk factor in positional asphyxia. The video, and rallying cry, we all know is all about “the knee on the neck.” From day 1 the state has been trying to move this knee around, because to make the knee relevant to positional asphyxia, it has to NOT be on the neck, but on the back… or “neck area”.

To me, that explains the knee slowly moving down Floyd’s anatomy in the state’s case.

Thanks for reading, I’m excited to watch along with you all and keep up on whatever Branca does next!

    Thanks for the kind words.

    More substantively, I would suggest that “could have” ≠ “proof beyond a reasonable doubt,” especially given that there exists a well-documented alternative explanation for Floyd’s asphyxia–the fatal dose of fentanyl he’d ingested upon contact by the police.

      Joeybags4 in reply to Andrew Branca. | April 8, 2021 at 9:38 am

      Looks like its going to come down to State’s high paid medical expert, Baden (not the ME who honestly determined cause of death ≠ DC knee). If Nelson does not completely destroy him jury may find guilty.

      Smooth23 in reply to Andrew Branca. | April 8, 2021 at 10:05 am

      Does the prosecution at some point also have to prove that Chauvin acted with a ‘depraved mind’? Seems like that would require some expert psychological witnesses, which as far as I know aren’t on the radar. It certainly isn’t clear to anyone with a IQ higher than a potato that he was acting with corrupted morality.

        Christopher B in reply to Smooth23. | April 8, 2021 at 10:58 am

        IANAL but I don’t think that’s absolutely necessary. I think they need to show his conduct was reckless and unlawful for the manslaughter and 3rd degree murder charges but not that he had a ‘depraved mind’. For the felony murder charge I think they just need to show he was guilty of assaulting Floyd which is the underlying offense for the felony murder.

        Mike Wilson in reply to Smooth23. | April 8, 2021 at 11:39 am

        Depraved mind is indeed required for a 3rd degree murder conviction.

          Mike Wilson in reply to Mike Wilson. | April 8, 2021 at 11:41 am

          From jury instructions:
          Third, the defendant’s intentional act that caused the death of George Floyd was eminently dangerous to other persons and was performed without regard for human life. Such an act may not have been specifically intended to cause death, and may not have been specifically directed at the particular person whose death occurred. But in order to find this element has been satisfied, it must have been committed in a reckless or wanton manner with the knowledge that someone may be killed and with a heedless disregard of that happening

        James B. Shearer in reply to Smooth23. | April 8, 2021 at 12:07 pm

        “Does the prosecution at some point also have to prove that Chauvin acted with a ‘depraved mind’? ..”

        I believe ‘depraved mind’ has a legal meaning that is independent of any medical meaning that it may also have. IANAL but I think it basically means that you acted illegally in a way that showed an abnormal and extreme indifference to the welfare of other people and whether you did this is something a juror can determine for themselves using their common sense and life experience.

        There is considerable doubt that the third degree murder is even applicable to this case given Minnesota law and precedents.

          luckystars in reply to James B. Shearer. | April 8, 2021 at 3:01 pm

          I would say that police when stressed go straight back to their training and move through the steps as trained and without emotion. It’s what they always say anyway.
          They have to be detached or they won’t be able to do that work. I knew a firefighter who said to me “I don’t feel anything at all anymore, sometimes if it is a child I might.”

    NGAREADER in reply to GWN. | April 8, 2021 at 10:30 am

    Chauvin and the other LE on scene didn’t know in real time that Floyd had just ingested all those drugs. Floyd’s “friend” and girlfriend in the car with him, likely did.
    They both have some (great) responsibility for not telling the cops that critical information. They should have known that he would soon be increasingly under the effects of the drug cocktail. I hope somebody points that out in a tactful way at some point in the trial.
    Also, great to see Andrews commentary and linked videos and other info in open format. Hopefully those that don’t get access to the other side of the story provided by the MSM will have a better understanding.
    This is especially important if he ends up being acquitted. CNN and others present highly edited info that makes the public believe this is a slam dunk guilty verdict and it’s no wonder the poorly informed feel indignation if he walks or is found guilty of a much lesser charge. No doubt, they will be right out there covering the riots in great detail and with sympathy if & when.
    They will also share responsibility while claiming outrage over something they created.

    William L Gensert in reply to GWN. | April 8, 2021 at 11:14 am

    Tobin hurts the defense because everything he says about the mechanics of breathing is correct. Yet his analysis, while comprehensive and explained in a way that will get the jury’s attention and respect, he is looking at “breathing” and “asphyxiation” in isolation.

    He is looking at Floyd’s death as if he had never done drugs that day and they had no impact.

    At best, he is making a case for what Chauvin did as a contributing factor.

    But only if the people on the jury understand what he is saying.

      Yes, the critical event was already in progress when he was in the cruiser, and perhaps earlier, well before the officer took a knee to restrain him. Given the observational and evolutionary evidence, this was a progressive process that would render him nonviable by his choice.

    alaskabob in reply to GWN. | April 8, 2021 at 11:18 am

    I would look back in history to just how much weight was required to press one to death. I am discussing the placing of stones upon the person. This is far more than Chavin’s weight.

    The most famous case in the United Kingdom was that of Roman Catholic martyr St Margaret Clitherow, who (in order to avoid a trial in which her own children would be obliged to give evidence) was pressed to death on March 25, 1586, after refusing to plead to the charge of having harboured Catholic (then outlawed) priests in her house. She died within fifteen minutes under a weight of at least 700 pounds (320 kg). Several hardened criminals, including William Spigott (1721) and Edward Burnworth, lasted a half hour under 400 pounds (180 kg) before pleading to the indictment. Others, such as Major Strangways (1658) and John Weekes (1731), refused to plead, even under 400 pounds (180 kg), and were killed when bystanders, out of mercy, sat on them.[10]

      Brave Sir Robbin in reply to alaskabob. | April 8, 2021 at 10:59 pm

      Human beings are remarkably able to withstand external pressure. Most buildings collapse at 5 pounds per square inches over pressure. People can withstand over 30. I find the theory of positional asphyxiation dubious.

    ConradCA in reply to GWN. | April 8, 2021 at 12:54 pm

    Wouldn’t the important question to ask be “Would Floyd have died from the fentanyl overdose even if he been sitting up?”.

    William L Gensert in reply to GWN. | April 8, 2021 at 3:26 pm

    I think it would be fair to say that Tobin, “blinded them with science.”

Johnny Weissmuller | April 8, 2021 at 9:44 am

Usually the govt investigates then press charges. For the death Saint George of Floyd, charges during riots, court dates scheduled, then investigation later to build the case. Also, the state of Minn took the case away from Hennepin County.

https://anncoulter.com/2021/04/07/minneapolis-vs-the-evidencex/

    So the handcuffs killed him and not DC?

    This testimony would be decent except there is absolutely zero mention of drugs.

    Looking forward to Nelson bringing that up in cross.

The inner city criminal justice system is irretrievably broken

Chauvin never a chance at an acquittal

the best he can hope for is a hanger

the “of course I can be impartial” jurors are liars

and even the judge knows this

all it takes is one juror with some integrity and courage

@Andrew ,
Link to your free book needs to be fixed again

Hello, Andrew! I really like your coverage of this case. By the way, there is empirical literature that disconfirms the concept of positional asphyxiation from knee-to-neck restraint.

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/01/new-study-more-evidence-against-the-myth-of-restraint-asphyxia/

The conclusions of the study are enough to exonerate the officers from a murder charge:

“Our data do not support the hypothesis of restraint asphyxia.”

“When a cause of death cannot otherwise be determined, positional asphyxia is often suggested […] Proponents of this theory often hypothesize that subjects restrained prone, with applied downward weight force, hobbled, or in maximal restraint (restrained on their stomach with hands and wrists secured to the handcuffs) were unable to breathe because the position caused chest wall and abdominal restriction that prevented adequate expansion of the lungs. Subsequent rigorous scientific studies, however, using sophisticated measurements have debunked the positional or restraint asphyxia hypothesis because the prone position does not produce respiratory compromise.”

“To date, none of the published human clinical studies, or epidemiological studies, support the hypothesis that the pronerestraint position causes or contributes to ventilatory compromise”

“DiMaio and DiMaio observed that acceptance of the concept of positional asphyxia as the cause of death in restraint associated deaths often involves the suspension of common sense and logical thinking. Further, other researchers have commented that positional asphyxia is an interesting theory unsupported by the experimental data. Nor are significant changes in cardiovascular measures found.”

The prosecution is reaching for straws and all the empirical evidence contradicts their narrative. I can’t wait for the defense’s case.

If this trial results in a hung jury, will the anything be different in a re-trial?

    Observer in reply to broomhandle. | April 8, 2021 at 12:20 pm

    If he’s smart (which he isn’t), Keith Ellison will get some more competent prosecutors for next time!

      chrisboltssr in reply to Observer. | April 8, 2021 at 1:58 pm

      What would more competent prosecutors be able to do? If your premise starts with a lie you must either produce something to support the lie or produce evidence which invariably reveals the truth.

        Ben Kent in reply to chrisboltssr. | April 8, 2021 at 3:29 pm

        My concern = they will make shit up.
        Just like people who “suddenly remember” that they were gang raped by a Republican Supreme Court nominee.

        What is to stop people from Suddenly remembering that the officer told them he intended to kill a suspect in custody of a certain race ? There are people who have drunk so much Koolaide that the cannot think straight anymore.

The Packetman | April 8, 2021 at 10:29 am

So now sleep apnea killed GF?!

    3525Tex in reply to The Packetman. | April 8, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    Combination of sleep apnea and Covid 19 was deadly. Floyd would be popping Fentanyl like popcorn shrimp today, if sleep apnea hadn’t cut him down.

I heard Baker not Baden. I thought they agreed Baden would not testify. He never produced a report and Baker the ME never saw one. Baker interview with FBI does not support State’s theory so they are trying to downplay ME report.

I’m going to need a nap listening to this old turd.

Dear Mr. Branca,

Does the court system in Minnesota allow for the possibility of a directed verdict of not guilty, since the state’s witnesses have undermined its case?

By the way, Mr. Branca. Do you think the jury will acquit? The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of acquittal but don’t you think political pressure (such as the fear that their houses will be burned down by rioters) may possibly confer a conviction?

    KevinW1 in reply to oogabooga. | April 8, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    It only takes 1 jury. Don’t be surprised if one of the black males in the jury is the one leading an acquittal. Then again Minneapolis has elected Ilhan Omar twice so that gives you an idea of the jury pool they had to choose from.

State is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.They have run up against a stone wall. Cultural Marxism, Critical Race Theory, and Social Justice are not compatible with the US Constitutions Bill of Rights, and rules of criminal procedure and evidence.

Not sure why the prosecution thought the “I didn’t do no drugs” spin was a good idea when they know for a fact that there are chewed up fentanyl pills with Floyd’s DNA on them in the back of the patrol vehicle.

    TheOldZombie in reply to paralegal. | April 8, 2021 at 11:47 am

    Yes. The state really boxed themselves in a corner on that one.

    Observer in reply to paralegal. | April 8, 2021 at 12:17 pm

    And a toxicology report showing that Floyd had a 3x lethal dose of fentanyl, plus methamphetamine and other drugs, in his system at the time of his death.

Now cartoons instead of video.

LMAO this guy is lame. Now he’s a brain injury expert. Hell he doesn’t even need to examine a person to know they have brain damage.

Q: Doctor, does a lethal dose of fentanyl also cause death from a “low level of oxygen”?

A: Why yes it does!

Nothing further your honor!

Can’t wait to hear Defense introduce the importance of Fentanyl in this case

Can we get a legal opinion on a possible dismissal after the prosecution is done presenting its case? The prosecution has done such a horrendous job of presenting anything to support the charges wouldn’t there be a very strong case for the judge to dismiss the charges?

So this state witness is telling us that the MPD materials, including training and following the Graham case, is the fault of Floyd’s death?

This “pump handle” doesn’t particularly help me visualize what the expert’s testifying about. Perhaps if I’d grown up in Ireland, with one in my yard…

Breathing with fingers and knuckles? What?

Nelson on cross: So you’re saying any movement he does must be him struggling to breathe. Perhaps he was just struggling and resisting arrest?

Doctor Martin is a bit of a crack pot and is now just making stuff up. Breathing with his knuckles? I expect defense to show the actual video from this time frame to show Floyd is just resisting. I can’t wait to see the cross on this one.

Also he keeps saying you can see in the pictures that Chauvin’s right knee is rammed into Floyd’s left side, making it hard to breathe. I can’t see Chauvin’s right knee in any of the pictures he’s referring to. Am I the only one who doesn’t see this?

    Observer in reply to Chewbacca. | April 8, 2021 at 12:14 pm

    What’s he going to say was making it hard for Floyd to breathe when he was standing up? Nobody had a knee on Floyd then, yet he said seven times that he couldn’t breathe while he was still on his feet. What was his precise lung volume then, doc?

Eggshell Skull | April 8, 2021 at 11:14 am

Again, the more the knee ‘moves,’ as you say, from the neck to the back, the more THE STATE points to Kueng. Big risk. It’s GOT to be the neck.

Neither defense, nor, of course the State, and CERTAINLY NOT the media will point this out, but could an analytical juror start catching all the references to Kueng?

The definition of doubt- another person was putting their knee precisely where the they they say is at risk.

    lurker9876 in reply to Eggshell Skull. | April 8, 2021 at 11:17 am

    The state can say that Kueng is a rookie and Chauvin neglected to tell Kueng to move his knee; therefore, manslaughter on Chauvin’s part.

      bigskydoc in reply to lurker9876. | April 8, 2021 at 11:46 am

      While they certainly could, would they not have introduced that idea in opening arguments, and continued to hammer the point home on direct? Then again, when has inconsistency of argument, as to where the finger should point, stopped this prosecutorial team before?

Are we in a class?

Blackwell: Focus on first 5 minutes?
Martin: Yes, 5 minutes and 3 seconds, because that is up to the time that we see evidence of brain injury.

1) No evidence in Autopsy as to brain damage
2) Autopsy only noted lungs heavier than normal. Why ME didnt inspect the lungs further to determine what made the lungs heavier!

    bigskydoc in reply to Joe-dallas. | April 8, 2021 at 11:51 am

    INRE 2) Because, there is no pathognomic finding that could result from further examination. He excluded all possibilities other than asphyxiation, as a cause of the changes to the lungs, but it isn’t possible to determine the cause of the asphyxiation from pathological exam. That has to be gleaned from the history and other findings.

      Joe-dallas in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 1:48 pm

      Big montana sky doc – please elaborate. Since I lack a medical background, I could use some education – along with most of the others could use some education – thanks.

      I also found it odd that State is now arguing brain damage – for effect –

        lurker9876 in reply to Joe-dallas. | April 8, 2021 at 2:02 pm

        I get the impression that 1) Tobin was a last minute thing and 2) the prosecution team could not find anyone in Minneapolis to testify on this specific topic. What is going on with Minneapolis? Losing critical skills in Minneapolis? Think they could’ve found a better person in other major cities like Houston.

Speaking of the jury, I haven’t seen(or looked for) much jury reaction analysis from those in the courtroom. I wonder if there’s any valuable insight.

    buffalo in reply to Smooth23. | April 8, 2021 at 1:21 pm

    Would YOU wanna be on that jury AND on international TV?

      lurker9876 in reply to buffalo. | April 8, 2021 at 2:03 pm

      No, I do not. I would be very concerned about my safety as well as my family. I’ll also be afraid of being doxxed. The vote should be kept secret for a long time.

I don’t know what the hell this guy’s talking about.

And that should say something given this should be “reasonable force” from the standpoint of an officer or regular person, not some abstract physicist looking at this from a physiological point of view.

As an engineer I can tell you that you absolutely cannot calculate the force applied the way this old coot thinks you can. He literally forgot the officer has two legs and that the other leg would carry a lot of the weight.

This is just sad.

    Smooth23 in reply to Thatch. | April 8, 2021 at 11:32 am

    Ditto. Also, the demonstrated posture looks like more weight on the right leg. Which is it? they keep going back and forth between ‘all his weight was on his left leg and the neck” and ‘All his weight was compressing the lower lungs(using only the ‘dead’ space).’ State doesn’t seem to have a coherent idea of WTF may have actually happened. …. Because the answer is overdose or nothing!.

    The Packetman in reply to Thatch. | April 8, 2021 at 11:33 am

    He’s also making large assumptions on body positioning based on a still photo … a newly-graduated civil engineering student would tear this testimony to shreds.

    Now he is using half the body weight but making insupportable assumptions about how the force is distributed. And there is no mention of how long it is applied in any given position.

Fat_Freddys_Cat | April 8, 2021 at 11:29 am

The geniuses on Twitter are still sticking to their “I saw the video! And it made me cry! So I know he’s guilty! Get a rope!” analysis of the case. So we had all better be prepared if the jury hangs or acquits.

His shoe being off the ground could mean exactly the opposite of what Tobin is saying. If I’m lifting my left leg to readjust my boot will not be touching the ground and there will be less weight on the left leg. More weight will be distributed on the right leg at that time.

This quack just contradicted Dr. Baden who insisted that there is no connection between being able to breathe and being able to speak.

Half of his body weight is pressing down on his neck? Exactly 91.5 pounds… how precise!

I guess this guy never realized you can shift your body weight from one leg to another. I can get in the same position as Chauvin and put anywhere for 100% to 0% of my body weight on my left knee. This guy is losing credibility with me quickly.

    Decee in reply to fogflyer. | April 8, 2021 at 11:59 am

    I’ve done some very basic experiments with pillows and I was able to find i could have my knee on the pillow (neck/shoulder) yet have pretty much zero weight on the pillow.

    It is impossible for this guy to tell how much weight is being used so he shouldn’t be speculating about it.

      Yes, can do the same with any bathroom scale, and vary weight applied to scale from 0% of body weight to ~50%.

        bigskydoc in reply to Andrew Branca. | April 8, 2021 at 12:12 pm

        I’m having flashbacks to the Zimmerman trial with O’mara and the foam dummy. Anyone bring a bathroom scale into the court room today? Anyone?

      clintack in reply to Decee. | April 8, 2021 at 12:08 pm

      In principle, with a picture of Chauvin’s whole body and a good true vertical to compare it to, you should be able to calculate exactly how much weight is on each point of contact (foot or knee). (In your experiments with the pillow, pay attention to how your upper body moves over the knee/foot you’re putting most of your weight on.)

      In practice, with hand-held cellphone video and moving bodycams and partial images, yeah, it’s probably impossible.

Maybe it’s just me, but Tobin’s testimony appears to have started with the conclusion, then backfilled with causes that fit the conclusion. In my engineering background, I’ve seen this type of argument before and have never been impressed with it.

    amatuerwrangler in reply to Tom Morrow. | April 8, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    In accident reconstruction we called that “results-driven analysis”.
    Yes, less than impressive…

Using the sagittal (Sideview) MRI to demonstrate the size of the hypopharynx is deceptive. On a cross-section image the hypopharynx is seen as a structure extending to both the right and left sides of the midline. Even if it were possible to completely obliterate the hypopharynx on the side under the knee, which I doubt, this would only be a 50% airway obstruction. As the witness’s own graph demonstrated, even a 60% obstruction has a little effect. Also, for what it is worth, the graph used by this witness was data for tracheal obstruction, not directly applicable to hypopharynx.

Another point is that body weight can be transferred through the flexed knee to the point where the tibia is resting on the sternomastoid muscle and posterior neck even when the still photos show a portion of the knee projecting over the region of the hypopharynx. Therefore, any calculations of degree of airway obstruction based on these photos is nonsense.

WOW.

Witness as I, Carnac the Magnificent, prophesy Nelson’s next chat with Medical Trainer McKenzie.

NELSON: Would you explain this graph for the jury?

MCKENZIE: I don’t know what this is.

NELSON; How about this complex formula?

MCKENZIE: No idea about this either.

NELSON: Do you incorporate this graph and complex formula in your trainings to MPD officers?

MCKENZIE: I don’t even know what these things mean.

NELSON: Have you ever seen them before today?

MCKENZIE: Nope.

NELSON: Are you familiar with Dr. Martin Tobin?

MCKENZIE: Not at all.

NELSON: Are you familiar with physiological-cum-physics formulas to determine moment angles and ft-lbs. of pressure applied to lung tissues?

MCKENZIE: Not at all.

NELSON: So you don’t teach physics formulas to determine pressure on lung tissues in your trainings to MPD officers?

MCKENZIE: No.

NELSON: Do you advise officers to make their use of force decisions during encounters by relying on information they could only glean AFTER the encounter is over, by watching videos of the encounter and applying complex physics formulas and consulting with specialty physicians?

MCKENZIE: No.

NELSON: Why not?

MCKENZIE: It wouldn’t make any sense.

NELSON: Nothing further.

How many times do they let him repeat the same sentence about 57% of the time?

Johnny Weissmuller | April 8, 2021 at 11:59 am

Presser by city of Minneapolis live now. The libs are losing it. https://youtu.be/iJDUpqv9ciQ

    Just a casual reminder to make sure that all of your insurance policies are up to date, nothing more, move along. Oh, and a $50K forgivable loan. Isn’t that just saying “gift” without using the word “gift?”

“Tobin’s conduct on stand is of a person who has never before participated in a legal proceeding as an expert witness. Doesn’t understand any of the legal process.”

What did you mean by this? It’s clear he’s just spouting a bunch of opinion and trying to sound authoritative and sciency, but how would he be different as a prosecution witness if he understood the process? He’d still say the same stuff to try to add support for a conviction, right?

    There’s a deliberate process followed when evidence is to be published to the jury, and Tobin keeps stepping all over it.

    Evidence is first shown to have foundation by the witness (here: “would this be helpful to jury in understanding your testimony?”), then is offered to the court, reviewed for objection by other party, received by the court, then published to jury. Only then is it shown to the jury and discussed in detail by the witness.

    Tobin keeps stepping on that process.

When on cross, you watch all his answers suddenly turn from detailed explanations into simple “yes” answers.

Andrew, I add my thanks to the many others. Now, I have some questions that you or others may want to address:
1. will Atty Nelson move for directed verdicts at the end of the state’s case?
2. will the judge grant directed verdicts? maybe on some charges? Based on your summaries to date, no juror can possibly find Ofcr. Chauvin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. ON the other hand. it is not possible to fathom the judge taking this case for himself, even if it is the right thing to do. Also, I’m not sure what the impact would be on a state appeal.
3. Was it risky for Atty Nelson to save questions for the MPD trainer who was so helpful to the defense for his case in chief? I would rather cross with leading questions. Further, not to be too conspiratorial, but isn’t possible that someone could get to her or talk to her between now and the time? Of course, if such was uncovered, . . .
4. Not clear on the scope of the 5th. Could the defense call the drug dealer and ask questions to which dealer would have to assert the privilege or questions that could not be construed under any circumstances as incriminating e.g. how long have you known Floyd?
5. Still on the 5th no relating to the other officers, who would no doubt assert the privilege. What you have said is that the 5th supersedes the defendant’s right to a present exculpatory evidence. I have a hard time believing that a defendant charged with murder could be deprived of that right. Also, maybe the state planned it this way? If I recall, didn’t the state object or indicate its intention to object to factual statements made by the other officers in the video on hearsay grounds.
Anything light you can shed would be most interesting.

    bigskydoc in reply to sheldonkatz. | April 8, 2021 at 12:07 pm

    Regarding directed verdict, Mr. Branca has responded to that question twice already today, on this thread. I believe he gave it a 0.000000001% or so chance of happening.

      bigskydoc in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 12:15 pm

      OK, I guess he thought it was more likely than that. (LOL) The two quotes I was referring to.

      “Forget it. That’s a theoretical option, legally, but probability of occurring is 0.000001%.”

      “It allows for a directed verdict, but directed verdicts virtually never happen, and won’t happen in this case”

        sheldonkatz in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 12:33 pm

        Thanks BigSky. It is routine for defense to request and nearly routine for judge to deny. I understand why judge would deny in this case, but if Andrew’s summaries accurately capture what is happening, dv would be right and just.

Does Mr Robin care to talk about the drugs at some point or no?

One problem with this line of “hypopharyngeal obstruction” reasoning is that there actually is a pathognomic finding on post-mortem that supports a diagnosis of upper airway compromise as the cause of death, and that finding is absent in this case.

In cases of death from upper airway obstruction, we typically see the alveoli filled with fluid on autopsy. Mr. Floyd’s lungs had interstitial fluid (pulmonary edema) but did not have fluid present inside the alveoli.

Pulmonary edema is consistent with asphyxia, from drugs or from compression, but absent fluid in the alveoli, is not consistent with upper airway obstruction.

That illustration is misleading too because I never saw Chauvin have both feet off the ground at the same time. It could have happened for a second, but no one has provided a picture of it during the times I have watched and I have seen most of it.

Defense should have objected.

Lung volume is the same for all sexes and ages, but then he says he calculated it based on Floyd’s age, size and sex.

He can’t go two paragraphs without contradicting himself.

    OK, he either misspoke there or I misheard since he is making a distinction between tidal etc… He has left stuff out more than once.

      BillD in reply to Thatch. | April 8, 2021 at 12:28 pm

      Lung capacities vary apart from age and gender. . Trained athletes may have a vital lung capacity of 5 or 6 liters (5000-6000 cc). Lung diseases or lifestyle choices may cause a diminished lung capacity.

Dear Mr Branca:
How do you think the jury is seeing this? Are they seeing it like we are or are they seeing it differently (more like the mainline media is reporting)?

I just can’t get over why there’s absolutely no questions regarding the impact of the Fentanyl — why wouldn’t you want to “draw the sting” so to speak. Why are you waiting? All these charts and the complicated math! I think this is a huge Pros. blunder.

“Based on very rigorous science” Has his work been peer-reviewed by someone who can evaluate his “very rigorous science”?

“Blackwell: Point in time you determined Floyd did not have enough oxygen to maintain consciousness?

Tobin: Yes, 24:53, can tell precisely. Do this as ICU doctor, patient features to tell how conscious someone is, flick eyes, move muscles in face.”

The biggest pile of whore’s excrement so far in this trial. I watch people go unconscious multiple times per day. ICU docs, almost never. And no, you can’t just watch a video and see when it happens.

    fogflyer in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 12:32 pm

    I guess this guy doesn’t have pulse oximeters in his ICU!🤣

    Observer in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 1:16 pm

    Unless this guy’s ICU is very unusual, the docs typically don’t spend much time there. It’s the nurses who watch the ICU patients. The docs are usually only there for a few minutes each day. But maybe Dr. Tobin has the super-power of exceptionally good timing, and always shows up at the precise moment the patient is about to expire?

      bigskydoc in reply to Observer. | April 9, 2021 at 8:58 am

      This. The docs come in after the fact. If you want to know what the death transition really looks like, ask an ICU nurse.

Prosecutions are noted for omissions and there are a number of critical ones.

First, Floyd was a mayor drug dealer–new Mercedes SUV w/dark windows and remnants of a variety of drugs. Was he doing ‘business’ in it when two guys from store came up rather excited? Was it because they were ‘cheated’ in some way. Don’t know yet.

Police show up and Floyd may have swallowed his remaining drugs he got from the store guys? Won’t know until blood and stomach contents are analyzed.

Critical to low oxygen levels is this fact:

“The goal of this review paper is to consider changes in brain oxygen levels induced by several opioid drugs (heroin, fentanyl, oxycodone, morphine). While some of these drugs are widely used in clinical practice, they all are abused, often at doses exceeding the clinical range and often resulting in serious health complications.”

Another theory is that Floyd sold the two guys in the store drugs which they weren’t happy with, and decided to call the police on the ‘fake check’ accusation. Floyd was a violent giant, and quite capable of tearing those two guys apart……so call the cops and let them ‘punish’ him?

Other questions are what is the ‘correct’ way of subduing a 6’8″ violent giant acting crazily who threw off three police; leaving one to find a position kneeling on his back. Let Floyd up? with that hostile crowd? crazy.

Any chance that during Nelson’s case he re-enacts the 9 min 29 sec scene with someone kneeling on another person to show that the kneeled on party can breath just fine?

This pseudo-sciency bull crap sounds impressive until someone sees live with their own eyes that it is total nonsense.

Might be unconventional so I don’t know if he will do that but there could be some value.

Pulmonary expert testifies that Floyd’s oxygen level would be ZERO shortly after losing consciousness, which means chest compressions would do absolutely nothing to help Floyd!

I don’t think cops do mouth to mouth and I doubt they carry bags, so cops doing chest compressions would have done nothing to help Floyd in this guys opinion.

This guy is is completely strawmanning the opposition. The studies that found no decrease in long volume or asphyxiation were done with humans putting actual knees on the neck and the back, not with barbell. What a dishonest guy.

https://sci-hub.st/10.1097/PAF.0000000000000457

    fogflyer in reply to oogabooga. | April 8, 2021 at 12:37 pm

    “The knee puts 10X the pressure on the back as the Olympic weight”

    Yes, and in 1/10 the area! Therefore, the same amount of total resistance to breathing! This guy is a buffoon or a liar. I sure hope the jury has a couple of critical thinkers on there.

He testified that prone position can help a person with COVID ! This would seem to help the defense, as Floyd claimed to have had COVID. Whether he did or not, officers should have (and perhaps appear to have) taken his claim into account.

Holy crap this Dr. Tobin dude loves to hear himself speak and cannot fathom a world in which he doesn’t know everything.

I think the State is punishing the jury with Tobin as retribution for the defense success the last few days. They’re trying to bore the jury to death in order to wipe their memories.

who the hell said he died of a tumor??

    Observer in reply to Smooth23. | April 8, 2021 at 1:37 pm

    He was probably trying to pre-empt the suggestion that Floyd’s paraganglioma caused or contributed to his death. Because these types of tumors can release adrenaline in uncontrolled bursts, they can cause strokes, heart attacks, and even death in people who have them.

Blackwell: Aware Floyd had pre-existing health conditions? Opinion whether a person with none of those, a healthy person, would have died under same circumstances?

Tobin: Yes, a healthy person would have died.

That is flat out BS

    Yeah, people have enough commonsense to know that this sort of restraint is used a lot and the ground isn’t littered with corpses because of it.

    That was a misstep.

      neils in reply to Thatch. | April 8, 2021 at 3:45 pm

      Interesting re-enactment of the 9 minutes “knee on neck” incident on Louder with Crowder on YouTube yesterday. Spoiler alert: he didn’t die.

      https://youtu.be/5qHLXbVDnkc

        Midfiaudiophile in reply to neils. | April 8, 2021 at 4:08 pm

        I saw that as well. The “Chauvin” stand-in’s right knee was compressing the center of the back, rather than Crowder’s right arm and right side of his chest (the goal of the position was likely to control Mr. Floyd’s arms and keep him from flailing, so this is significant).

Carhill must be tired of these questions….

And time for lunch, then cross by Nelson. Cannot wait!!

Its Doctor Know It all, This guy is going to be easy to destroy on cross. Find one little flaw in his precise thory and the house of cards will fall. He thinks he is a genius but has never beeen a witness in a criminal trial.

Tobin mentioned he received docs from Hennepin ME. Nelson MUST ask Tobin if he reviewed the autopsy and toxicology report! Nelson must ask him if the large presence of such drugs changes anything in what he’s said today in court. Will be surprised if the State brings up the autopsy and toxicology with Tobin.

This guy is an absolute crank.

    phelps in reply to paralegal. | April 8, 2021 at 1:16 pm

    That’s the only kind of doctor that testifies FOR FREE as an expert in a case with a patient he didn’t treat.

Dr Tobin can tell no fentanyl effect based on mere observation/counting of breaths?! That is supposed to count for more than the toxicology?!

    watchthelinepartner in reply to foospro86. | April 8, 2021 at 1:18 pm

    Further, to what effect does the strenuous activity of resisting prior to restraint combined with Methamphetamine use counteract the breathing rate reduction from the fentanyl?

The question I want asked is whether positional asphyxia will swell your lungs to twice their normal weight.

When will they dig up Floyds Body for another autopsy like Mike Brown?

“: Yes, work in ICU where 40% of our patients die,”
****
That hospital must be a gold mine for Med-Mal lawyers!!!

So… we know he’s not being affected by fentanyl because that would reduce his breathing rate. And we know he’s not being affected by heart disease because that would increase his breathing rate.

Putting aside factors like struggling and agitation and taking meth, couldn’t a “normal” breathing rate mean that his normally high rate (from heart disease) was reduced by the fentanyl??

    P. T. Bridgeport in reply to clintack. | April 8, 2021 at 1:30 pm

    Stress, agitation, anger, pain, difficulty breathing… all these factors can increase respiratory rate. How much? You can’t predict. Opioids lower breathing rate, both directly and by mitigating these other factors. How much? You can’t predict.

    When the expert started talking about how the heart rate would be 35 with a heart attack but then 9 with fentanyl on board, he was either wrong or completely disingenuous. Of course the two factors work against each other. I’ve seen many hundreds of heart attacks present to the hospital. These patients are in distress and their heart rate is often elevated. 20? 24? 30? Who knows. Then they’re given morphine, as per protocol, and the heart rate often drops. How much? Who knows. I don’t think it’s possible to quantify the effect of distress on respiratory rate.

Defense will have to address the respiratory rate, that will carry a lot of weight. No mention that Floyd had been exerting himself though.

And I remember Floyd’s breathing slowing at the end, but we will see.

That is strongest prosecution point yet.

    fogflyer in reply to Thatch. | April 8, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    Hmmm…. perhaps struggling with officers, excited delirium, methamphetamine and shortness of breath might RAISE your respiratory rate and counteract the effects of Fentanyl???

Didn’t Floyd have cardiac disease? If so, his normal respiratory rate would have been 35-40, per Dr. Tobin. If fentanyl slows rate down 40%, then we should expect Floyd’s respiratory rate to be… 21-24. And Dr. Tobin counts it as 22. So, is this not consistent with fentanyl effect? Also, Floyd was down on the ground after violent resistance to police. Would that not have tended to elevate his respiratory rate, at least for a short while?

As for lifting his right side to breathe (per Dr. Tobin): how do the police distinguish that from continued resistance?

Ghost of Trayvon Martin | April 8, 2021 at 1:19 pm

I have to say as annoying as this guy is, along with his various outlandish assumptions and conclusions, his basic point is the best one we’ve seen yet for prosecution. His academic style is not bombastic and likely appealing to jury, and he basically says the officers killed Floyd and explains why he thinks that.

Be interesting to see what is done on cross about assumptions, including of lung volumbe, pressure, fact that this was all prescribed by MPD procedures and, of course, the huge amounts of drugs in Flloyd’s system, which prosecution, as per usual, has mostly glossed over rather than addressing head on.

How is this doctor able to determine respiration rate by watching a short video clip? If GF was lying on the ground not being touched by anyone the movement of his arm could indicate his respiratory rate but he was being held by three officers and their involuntary body movements produced by their own respiration could be transferred to GF. At least this testimony should open the Dr to a range of questions regarding the empirical evidence that GF had ingested 3X the lethal level of Fentanyl. I’m glad Nelson has a long lunch break before starting cross. I suspect during this time he will be huddling with his own medical experts and getting well primed for this afternoon.

    Brave Sir Robbin in reply to Keith_. | April 8, 2021 at 10:53 pm

    “How is this doctor able to determine respiration rate by watching a short video clip?”

    He can’t. However, on cross the witness will just continue to bamboozle with BS. Each question will generate nothing but more BS. It would be like trying to nail jello. I would not cross, but let him slide into oblivion.

Bet this Doc is all in Climate change

you can find someone with letters after their name to say anything

For those of you wondering, yes, physical effort, agitation, and pain will offset the respiratory depressing effects of fentanyl,

At the end of surgery, most of us anesthesiologists titrate fentanyl to achieve a certain level of respiratory depression. If we overshoot a bit, usually a slightly painful stimuli is sufficient to bring the respiratory rate back into a normal range.

It would not be surprising that during the pain and agitation of the struggle, Mr. Floyd’s respiratory depression would be markedly reduced. Once he relaxed, and stopped fighting, the respiratory depressant effects of the fentanyl would kick back in.

If Nelson isn’t well versed in the topic I’d let Tobin go and use my own expert to contradict him during defense. Tobin’s boring delivery will be soon forgotten.

William Carey | April 8, 2021 at 1:43 pm

Andrew, while I haven’t followed the testimony today and only skimming over your live blogging I have started to wonder if his respiratory statistics and modeling have been peer reviewed. It strikes me that his methodology for his conclusions might not be based on peer reviewed techniques. Again, not having watched it could he be just shooting from the hip?

Andrew:
To what extent has the defense already received Dr. Tobin’s assessment of what he thinks happened to George Floyd? Was there a written submission? Were the exhibits shared ahead of time?

” Significant because can calculate rate of CO2 in somebody who does not breath. CO2 increases at predictable rate, up to 4.9 mmHG per minute. No breath for 9m 50s, so would expect just on that basis that CO2 would go up by 49, add 49 to normal of 35-45, and get value between 89 and above.”

You blithering idiot. The blood gas wasn’t drawn immediately after the insertion of the tube, so there is no way to know what the CO2 level was at the time of insertion.

Assuming there is circulation, as soon breathing is reinitiated, the CO2 level will change. Unless the patient was immediately placed on a ventilator, and not manually ventilated, there is no way to calculate the change in CO2.

Assuming no circulation, the presence of the breathing tube, and artificial respirations is irrelevant, as there is no blood flow to bring CO2 to the lungs for elimination. In this situation, we would expect the blood CO2 to continue to rise, although at a somewhat unpredicatable rate.

    bigskydoc in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 1:58 pm

    EMS is famous for both over and under ventilating patients. That is not me being critical. I used to be the guy in the back of the ambulance. Even with a mechanical ventilator, and all the monitors I have in the OR, I usually have to adjust my vent settings a few times to match what the patient needs. EMS doesn’t have that luxury.

    If the patient was underventilated, then the CO2 would have continued to rise. If overventilated, then it would have fallen. You really can’t say what the CO2 level was at the time of intubation.

    Further, you have no baseline of what it was 5 minutes before hand. Could have been elevated from the fentanyl/ asphyxia, could have been reduced from the struggle.

      Elzorro in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 2:16 pm

      IMO he was so far gone from the dope nothing would have pulled him out. Why ya think they call it dope? He was dead when he ate all the dope. This trial is a social justice scheme.

I have never been so convinced of something since Al Gore told me we would be underwater by now

Question 1 for the quack.

Did you contact the state to offer your theory or did they contact you? He may be and old Lib going for his ‘Last Hurrah’ fishy. Sum ting smell funny with this guy. He keeps giving Mr. Smarty Pants looks at the defense table.

This Dr. Tobin reminds me of a lot of the self-important, pompous, academic professors I encountered during training. He probably thinks highly of himself, and surrounds himself with alcolytes who pander to his ego, right up to the point that they move into the real world, and realize that all of that academic theory is just that.

The human body is amazing, and no 2 are exactly alike. One cannot be rigid in his thinking, and the charts, graphs, and formulas are but roughly sketched maps of the journey. They exist as much to give our minds a framework for consideration as they do to guide us along the way.

Those that treat them as gospel do so at great peril.

    bigskydoc in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 2:20 pm

    The term frequently in error, rarely in doubt, comes to mind

    Ghost of Trayvon Martin in reply to bigskydoc. | April 8, 2021 at 2:26 pm

    Funny, Tobin wrote a piece on this. I wonder if Defense will use on CX?

    Generalizability and Singularity. The Crossroads between Science and Clinical Practice Tobin, M. J., AMERICAN JOURNAL OF RESPIRATORY AND CRITICAL CARE MEDICINE

      Good find. Tobin writes:
      “Decisions based on RCTs lure clinicians into thinking about group averages rather than the unique characteristics of an individual patient. Take, for example, mechanical ventilation in patients with the acute respiratory distress syndrome, where a tidal volume of 6 ml/kg has been shown to lower mortality. This setting is so widely accepted that it has become de rigueur in protocolized management. Yet, many patients exhibit double triggering and, thus, end up with a tidal volume of 12 ml/kg (9)—a setting proven to increase mortality. A one-volume-suits-all approach that ignores physiological quirks of individual patients can be lethal. It is, of course, more convenient for clinicians to view patients as items on a conveyor belt that can be handled in a protocolized fashion, as opposed to the more laborious task of thinking afresh about each individual patient—a step we expect for ourselves when it is our turn to play the part of patient.”

      Seems to me Dr. Tobin needs to determine how typical or atypical were the conditions surrounding this case before drawing too many strong conclusions. I assume the defense will call a pulmonary specialist with fentanyl expertise.

Nelson: Why you didn’t charge.

Tobin: Correct.

Correct
Correct
Correct
Correct

Why did he waive?

Oh!!! Nelson is setting the trap!!

Is this guy Fauci’s girlfriend ?

OMG, the morning testimony by Dr. Leprechaun has be contemplating suicide.

90% of smokers have no lung problems

Nelson: Floud had heart disease, 75-90 percent occlusion of ventricular arteries.
Tobin: Yes.
Nelson: Affects blood flow?
Tobin: Not really.

That is another outlandish piece of BS

Skydoc – if I am wrong, then please comment

    Observer in reply to Joe-dallas. | April 8, 2021 at 3:12 pm

    A lot of heart surgeons are going to be unhappy to hear this. They’ve been performing unnecessary procedures to unblock arteries for years now! Should have just left all that stuff blocking the arteries in there, since it don’t have any effect on blood flow!

    bigskydoc in reply to Joe-dallas. | April 8, 2021 at 3:33 pm

    When blockage exceeds approximately 70% in a proximal coronary vessel, then we stent,

    For the sake of argument I’ll give the most generous possible interpretation of his statement that I can. To say that blockage in the 75-95% range does not affect blood flow is misleading at best. If someone is completely at rest, it is possible that blood flow won’t be affected. Under stress, it absolutely will be.

    Was the blockage significant to the function of Mr Floyd’s heart? I can’t say because I haven’t read the autopsy. If the blockage was all fairly distal, small branch obstruction, then the effect could be quite minimal. If it was in one of the three main arteries, then he was walking a tightrope, just waiting to be pushed off. It is a question of how much of the heart muscle was supplied by the artery that was heavily obstructed,

    My opinion is that he is full of whorse excrement, and blatantly lied. He is too knowledgeable for this to be a simple mistake.

this guy has 100% anal blockage

but he’s not full of shit

What kind of doctor doesn’t know that being scared can cause an adrenaline surge? Most people don’t even need to be told that, because they’ve felt it happen in their own bodies.

I do think that placing a person prone on their stomach is a protocal for helping Covid Patients. I think I saw that someplace.

the only guy the prosecution could find to spew this BS you can’r understand

Is this The Gong Show? Get the hook for this kook.

sleazypmartini | April 8, 2021 at 3:16 pm

Am I watching a Kenan Thompson snl skit right now?

In my professional opinion, I’m a kook.

Shows Dr. was not aware of pills found in car–assumed Floyd used earlier/Dr. spent hours/days/months preparing slides–Nelson received slides last night–

I said Nelson should have left him alone. In my opinion politically motivated.

Still think Tobin’s a bit of a kook, but it really didn’t come off that way in the cross-examination.

‘Spark of life’: jury to hear from George Floyd’s brother in quirk of Minnesota law
Before resting their case in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, prosecutors are planning to show the jury photographs of George Floyd as a younger man and question one of Floyd’s brothers, who is expected to recall Floyd’s close relationship with his mother.

The pictures and reminiscences are not intended to shed any light on the central question before the jury: whether Chauvin, who is white, committed a crime during his deadly arrest of Floyd.

I watched much of Dr. Tobin’s testimony – both direct , cross, redirect. If I was a jury member I would need to have that testimony countered by a defense expert witness. His testimony was good for the prosecution IMHO, not withstanding various odd assertions. Nelson’s Cross did not nearly do the damage that it did to the use of force expert witnesses. Somebody is going to have to be persuasive as to the effects of fentonyl to support its role in contributing to George Floyds death.

    REDACTED in reply to bernie49. | April 8, 2021 at 3:31 pm

    Dr Kook “90% of smokers do not have lung damage”

      chrisboltssr in reply to REDACTED. | April 8, 2021 at 5:23 pm

      Did he inadvertently support the assertion that smoking does not lead to damaged lungs at minimum and cancer at maximum?

        lurker9876 in reply to chrisboltssr. | April 8, 2021 at 11:08 pm

        Yes, to a large extent.

        I remember seeing black lungs of a long term smoker at the Body World.

        GF was more likely a long term smoker, given his age. I do not know what the autopsy report says about his lungs, though.

    Smooth23 in reply to bernie49. | April 8, 2021 at 3:32 pm

    Maybe just point to the last 10 years of The War on Drugs®, then ask why fentanyl test strips are routinely sold to druggies. I’ll give ya a hint, it aint cause they WANT fent..

    Joe-dallas in reply to bernie49. | April 8, 2021 at 5:50 pm

    I concur with bernie (though I read the transcript), presentation was very good

    At the same time, there were several things he said that I thought was pure BS
    1) every healthy person would have died with that restraint, knee on back/neck
    2) drugs had zero effect

    My impression is that the logic of several of those BS statements were not going register as bogus with most of the jurors and therefore will have positive impression on jurors

      Char Char Binks in reply to Joe-dallas. | April 8, 2021 at 8:46 pm

      Nobody who knows the relevant facts and laws believes that Chauvin is guilty of any crime. They simply want to convict him, and the prosecution paid experts to say the words that will justify it for jurors who were selected for their willingness to presume guilt.

    i.e.fitch in reply to bernie49. | April 8, 2021 at 6:12 pm

    After reading over the line up of the experts Atty. Nelson has planned, ooooh, I think they will make the states witnesses look like a bunch of dog-faced-pony soldiers. 😂

    Here are (some? all?) of the defenses witnesses.

    Initial Expert Disclosures:

    https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/InitialExpertDisclosures01152021.pdf

    Curriculum Vitae – warning, it’s extremely lengthy, 212 pages, I believe, but we’ll worth reading. It includes CV’s for all those listed on the Initial Expert Disclosures.:

    https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/CV01152021.pdf

    stacytracy in reply to bernie49. | April 8, 2021 at 7:04 pm

    The graphics made an impression on me….