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George Floyd Autopsy: “no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation”

George Floyd Autopsy: “no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation”

So this case about the knee to the neck may not be a criminal trial about the knee to the neck. A lot of people aren’t going to want to hear that.

https://youtu.be/lirHz93qJ50

The video of George Floyd pinned down on his stomach, hands cuffed behind him, with Officer Derek Chauvin pinning him down with a knee to the neck, is hard to watch. Among other things, Floyd pleads with the officers that he can’t breath.

From that video alone, there was near universal condemnation of the police, and a lot of punditry that the knee-to-the-neck pressure was the cause of death. The New York Times reported:

For police trainers and criminologists, the episode appears to be a textbook case of why many police departments around the country have sought to ban outright or at least limit the use of chokeholds or other neck restraints in recent years: The practices have led too often to high-profile deaths….

Criminologists viewing the tape said the knee restraint not only put dangerous pressure on the back of the neck, but that Mr. Floyd was kept lying on his stomach for too long. Both positions — the knee on the neck and lying face down — run the risk of cutting off someone’s oxygen supply.

The video sparked looting and rioting which now is spinning out of control in numerous cities.

I’ve not commented so far, because I’ve learned from covering numerous prior cases to wait for the evidence to come in before discussing criminal culpability. From what I’ve seen so far, it’s hard to understand or justify the actions of the police in pinning Floyd down for so long, or of putting a knee to the neck.

But criminal liability would require a causation element — that the conduct of the police caused the death.

So when the prosecuters did not immediate charge Chauvin despite the public pressure, I assumed that they were waiting for Medical Examiner findings to support causation.

The Criminal Complaint (pdf.) filed against Chauvin, and announced today, charged non-intentional crimes: Murder – 3rd Degree – Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind, and Manslaughter – 2nd Degree – Culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk.

https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

The Criminal Complaint filed againt Chauvin contains a section regarding the Medical Examiner’s preliminary findings. Those findings include that Floyd did not die from asphyxia or stangulation (emphasis added):

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner (ME) conducted Mr. Floyd’s autopsy on May 26, 2020. The full report of the ME is pending but the ME has made the following preliminary findings. The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.

The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.

These Medical Examiner findings explain why no intentional murder charge was asserted: The intentional act of Chauvin putting his knee on Floyds neck did not cause the death in itself. It was, according to the prosecution, the act of holding Floyd down given his pre-existing medical condition and “potential intoxicants.”

Not surprisingly, the Floyd family has hired Dr. Michael Baden to perform a private autopsy.

Other videos have emerged showing Floyd led to the car without any obvious struggle, and of other officers joining Chauvin in holding Floyd down. What is missing from the videos is how Floyd came to be pinned down. But the Criminal Complaint provides this explanation that Floyd was resisting getting in the police car:

The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still. Mr. Floyd is over six feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds.

While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted.

The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at 8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng held Mr. Floyd’s back and Lane held his legs. The defendant placed his left knee in the area of Mr. Floyd’s head and neck. Mr. Floyd said, “I can’t breathe” multiple times and repeatedly said, “Mama” and “please,” as well. The defendant and the other two officers stayed in their positions.

The officers said, “You are talking fine” to Mr. Floyd as he continued to move back and forth. Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?” and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.” Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.” None of the three officers moved from their positions.

So this case about the knee to the neck may not be a criminal trial about the knee to the neck. It may be a criminal case about the reasonableness of restraining someone resisting getting in a police car. A lot of people aren’t going to want to hear that. Pointing out this criminal law reality will anger many who will conflate a reality check with a defense of Floyd’s death.

If you think a guilty finding is a given, then you haven’t followed police use of force cases. The police defendants in the Rodney King case took a video that seemed to make conviction a certainty, and tore it apart second-by-second to argue that the use of force was justified

In a frame-by-frame analysis of the videotape, expert witness Sergeant Charles Duke backed up Koon’s contention that only reasonable force was used against King. Duke, a critic of LAPD policy banning use of chokeholds, suggested that the King incident showed the inevitable result of a policy that left the police with few viable options short of deadly force. Duke said it was sometimes necessary “to break a bone” and that every one of the fifty-six baton swings shown on the videotape was justified.

The not guilty finding triggered riots, as will a finding of not guilty if Chauvin escapes conviction.

We don’t have all the evidence yet, so we don’t know what the defense will be. Except we know from the Medical Examiner’s that at least part of the defense for Chauvin will be that he did not cause the death with his knee, and could not reasonably have known of Floyd’s medical condition.

I think John Hinderaker has it right:

It may be that when all the facts are in, we will conclude that George Floyd died as a result of negligence on the part of Minneapolis policemen. If so, there will be plenty of time for an accounting. But today’s disclosure of the Medical Examiner’s preliminary findings reminds us why lynch mobs have always been a bad idea, and calls for overnight justice are nearly always misguided.

UPDATE:

I haven’t researched it myself, but this Legal Fellow at Heritage Foundation is of the view that the 3rd Degree Murder charge is legally deficient:

MORE VIDEO

This video fills in a small piece of what happened between the time he was led to the car, according to the criminal complaint had some form of resisting getting in the car, was in the car, but does not fill in what happened that ended with the restraint on the ground.

————————

George Floyd Case – Derek Chauvin Criminal Complaint by Legal Insurrection on Scribd

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Comments

Have you noticed at end of video the two guys who put him on a gurney were police in bullet proof vests… so not EMTe and no immediate medical attention given?

Bit weird eh…..

    Liz in reply to LisaGinNZ. | May 29, 2020 at 10:59 pm

    Not really weird.

    I haven’t seen the videos due to site issues, but I would assume that either the EMTs were not properly decked out for the situation or the police offered to get the body to the EMT truck due to the activity in the area. In a tense situation, people are usually aware of their security and will accept offers of help. In this case, the EMTs may have let the police officers move the body in a safe manner.

    I’ll try to get to the videos, but I don’t always assume that there is a bad intent for doing something. I prefer to wait for more information.

      notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to Liz. | May 30, 2020 at 12:27 am

      This is not weird either for the traitor Democrats.

      The riots, arson, looting and related violence has spread from Minneapolis Minnesota to several urban areas around the nation. From ground reports it appears Antifa groups have organized and infiltrated activist and protest groups in Minneapolis and beyond.

      Democrat strongholds in Atlanta (GA), Washington DC, Houston (TX), New York City (NY), Los Angeles (CA), and other deep blue metropolitan areas are now seeing organized riots, anti-police violence and chaos.

      Many people are calling for federal intervention; however, that type of confrontation is the intended goal of the social anarchy crowd. The leftist chaos is purposeful bait.

      Politically speaking, the merging of Antifa (revolution communists) & Black Lives Matter (sub-text political Islam), has a purposeful agenda unknown to the standard brick thrower. Suburban white liberals, essentially modern affiliates of the former Bill Ayers Weather Underground, are the organizing entities. Most of the people on the street are oblivious….

      https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/05/29/the-anger-games-friday-night-riots-open-discussion-thread/

        notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital. | May 30, 2020 at 2:42 am

        Giuliani on local Democrat Mayors’ leadership
        as nationwide protests erupt

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o2lfW3LY6FY

          notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital. | May 30, 2020 at 3:15 am

          Congresswoman Ilhan Omar’s daughter, Isra Hirsi, used her large social media influence to try to get people to give “supplies” to rioters in Minnesota.

          The list she shared included a request for sticks, plywood and rackets.

          Ilhan Omar’s daughter shows support on Twitter for antifa group organizing riots in Minneapolis
          thepostmillennial.com

          https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1266439647741149184

          notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital. | May 30, 2020 at 3:30 am

          Hmmmmmm……

          Napoleon Trombonaparte

          The autopsy in Minneapolis stated he did not die from asphyxiation.
          He had a heart failure of some kind.
          I have a buddy who is a police officer and I ask him when I saw the picture of Freddie Gray being held down about the knee on the back thing.
          He stated if done correctly, you are balancing and only applying the pressure to keep them down.
          He was taught to rise up a bit with them but it took very little pressure down .
          He said it looks worse than it is .
          .
          We know he was breathing for at least 3 or 4 minutes and there is no indication that pressure was increased.
          The charging documents stated they discussed his condition and thought he was suffering delirium and should be kept in that position.
          The shop owner said he was extremely intoxicated.

          I would say with these facts ,it may not be a slam dunk case.
          Especially if toxicology comes back in the Freddie range.

          ……

          jay

          The need to restrain is part of the ‘excited delirium’ event. It is necessary so that the arrestee and arrestors are not injured. The underlying illnesses that plagued this man are more likely the cause of death. Not the actions of the officers.

          If you notice there is a wet spot where his face was on the ground. Excited Delirium causes the body to sweat profusely and body temperature to spike. The wet spot is a good indication he was sweating profusely and that he was in excited Delirium.

          There is no boot or knee on the throat at any time. The other 3 officers were holding his body so he could not injure them or himself. Therefore, the pressure needed was not excessive. The officer’s face is relaxed and does not indicate he was being threatened. So why would he need to press down with the weight of his body?

          If you notice on the video, one he and the officer arrive at the police car, he lounges to the ground Towards the police Car on the sidewalk side. In the next images he is on the street side of the police car. HOW did he reach the street side. Was he resisting arrest? Did he crawl out of the car? Most likely excited Delirium took over his mental and physical capacities and the officers had to restrain him.

          Excited Delirium happens often especially when there are underlying drugs.

          The video of the lady in the NY park strangling and choking the dog as she make the 911 call shows a person completely unhinged and unaware of her surroundings. So much so that she was killing her dog. Police are trained to be aware of surroundings and to handle these very stressful situations.

          That is not to say this officer acted properly or was not negligent. That conclusion must be based on facts. The forensics report and fellow officers testimony will serve as evidence. And if and only if the elements of the crime are met should he be found guilty.

          That is our system- that is what we agree to do in all cases. It is called due process. We should not change the rules just because the optics are bad. No one should be charged, tried and convicted in the court of public opinion as this officer has been.

          notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital. | May 30, 2020 at 12:51 pm

          …..the New York Times announced last August that it would be focusing its news coverage, as much as possible, on racism (with particular emphasis on Donald Trump, of course). Other media outlets joined in….. – Ace of Spades

    mrtomsr in reply to LisaGinNZ. | May 31, 2020 at 11:22 am

    “ Have you noticed at end of video the two guys who put him on a gurney were police in bullet proof vests… so not EMTe and no immediate medical attention given?”

    Hennepin Count EMS is run out of their 3500 bed County hospital with both ALS and BLS ambulances. This response by the ambulance was at the request of Mpls PD. It is very possible that the scene was considered dangerous or unsecured. I do not know the HCMC policy for vests, but in one of my services, also inner city, our hospital supplied them to all of the medics that requested them.

    These guys did have vests in place. They did not treat on the scene, but loaded him directly on the cot and then into the ambulance.

    Notice the police in the foreground, back to the patient. He was protecting those that had to focus on other priorities, and I am assuming he wasn’t alone in that duty.

    Waiting until getting into the ambulance reflects that their ROE (rules of entry) may have been get in, get him loaded and get out. Not uncommon for unsecured scenes. They may have, though I doubt it, had police presence enroute to the scene in their truck but most assuredly, enroute to the hospital because their patient was under arrest and needed to be uncuffed during transport for treatment.

I expected that. Odds were that the other officers stood around because that’s what this officer always did. It’s always been harmless before, just a little American street justice for a guy being a jerk.

    tom_swift in reply to rhhardin. | May 30, 2020 at 6:44 am

    No problem there. The trick is that they have to keep it harmless.

    Connivin Caniff in reply to rhhardin. | May 30, 2020 at 7:39 am

    Unless you are being sarcastic, you disgust me. That conduct is in no way “American”, “justice” or “harmless”. I guess you place the raid on Roger Stone acceptable, too.

Dantzig93101 | May 29, 2020 at 9:11 pm

And now it seems that the men knew each other because they worked as bouncers at the same club. That might or might not complicate the story.

    willow in reply to Dantzig93101. | May 30, 2020 at 6:00 pm

    The owner said they likely did not now each other. One worked inside and one outside. There were numerous employees who did not know each other.

Skankywoman | May 29, 2020 at 9:19 pm

The police officer “sat” on his neck until he was dead, underlying medical conditions/drug use aside. That is not in dispute.

    MarkSmith in reply to Skankywoman. | May 29, 2020 at 9:43 pm

    And you have proof? Video is not enough.

      maxmillion in reply to MarkSmith. | May 29, 2020 at 11:31 pm

      Read what he wrote. He made no accusations. He merely stated the facts: The cop sat on his neck and did not get up until he was dead. Those are not accusations. Those are the facts.

        Barry in reply to maxmillion. | May 30, 2020 at 12:23 am

        “Read what he wrote.”

        “Skankywoman”

        What the skank wrote is just BS. You nor the skankywoman have any idea how much pressure was applied or that it had anything to do with the death of the man.

          maxmillion in reply to Barry. | May 30, 2020 at 1:10 am

          Try not to be a hapless tool. This is how their lawyer is going to present it and, and, besides, it still may well be 100% accurate.

          MarkS in reply to Barry. | May 30, 2020 at 8:41 am

          According to former cop Dan Bongino, he could see Chauvin’s other leg off the ground, which would suggest full body weight

          Barry in reply to Barry. | May 30, 2020 at 1:01 pm

          Bongino, Hannity, and the rest of faux news were screaming guilty for hours without the benefit of anything more than the video publicly released.

          I’m pretty hard on the police, especially prog city police, but I know not to pre-judge based on a bystander video.

          The autopsy to date does not support any untoward pressure on the dead mans neck. And you can bet the coroner would like to have found such.

    fscarn in reply to Skankywoman. | May 30, 2020 at 8:47 am

    Even if Floyd’s underlying medical conditions were the cause of his death, there’s no excuse for the cop to have knelt on him for so long. Once Floyd was subdued, the situation was under control. The cop should be charged with something, but a murder charge (even in the 3d degree) seems inappropriate.

“Traumatic asphyxia” is from chest crushing injuries and meaningless in the context of the knee to the neck strangulation.

Please skip down to and read the Pathophysiology and Clinical Findings sections here. https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-to-evaluate-strangulation/?singlepage=1

The short version Frequently, strangulation does not result in visible physical findings. If strangulation results in hypoxia, patients may have mental status changes and incontinence.

    healthguyfsu in reply to sheepgirl. | May 30, 2020 at 1:52 am

    A heart attack could also cause those symptoms, so they are inconclusive.

    Traumatic asphyxia is any trauma that causes one to insufficiently ventilate the lungs (it is not confined to the chest).

    Other causes…collapsed larynx/trachea (often due to crushing), severing of the phrenic nerve, paralytic brain trauma, etc.

Just like Trayvon Martin wasn’t innocently walking home with some Skittles, just like Michael Brown wasn’t innocently walking in the street.

They don’t care.

I wonder if they will include Corona Virus as a cause of death, too?

Katy L. Stamper | May 29, 2020 at 9:59 pm

I feel badly for whomever performed the autopsy. I hope he has guards.

So are we to believe that if Officer Chauvin had not put his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck that Mr. Floyd would have died at the same time from his underlying conditions? That will be a hard sell!

    NotCoach in reply to MarkS. | May 29, 2020 at 10:12 pm

    No, we are not to believe that. A case can certainly be made that the arresting officers actions pushed Floyd over the edge. The question becomes whether or not that is enough to obtain a conviction. While comparisons to the Rodney King case are being made there is one important difference: King didn’t die.

      MarkS in reply to NotCoach. | May 29, 2020 at 10:31 pm

      The police are using the same excuse they use with Eric Gardener, that he had health issues and would have died even if the police hadn’t choked him

      MarkS in reply to NotCoach. | May 29, 2020 at 10:33 pm

      oops, forgot to say that if Chauvin’s actions pushed Floyd “over the edge” then he killed him as much as me trying to say, yeah, I shot you but you died from loss of blood, not from the bullet wound

      alaskabob in reply to NotCoach. | May 30, 2020 at 10:22 am

      Same outcome….acrid smoke in air, state sanctioned lawlessness. The restraint of the detainee was for too long. He wasn’t going anywhere. This just give cover for more crime from the portion of society .

    Voyager in reply to MarkS. | May 29, 2020 at 10:30 pm

    Quite possibly yes. If you have a heart condition and engage in heavy physical activity while strung out you can give yourself a fatal heart attack.

    Remember you cannot tell when you are being asphyxiated: you do not have the air.

    This is, incidentally, what makes asthma so dangerous: when you’ve lost control of it, you are not able to cry for help.

      tom_swift in reply to Voyager. | May 30, 2020 at 6:03 am

      If you have a heart condition and engage in heavy physical activity while strung out you can give yourself a fatal heart attack.

      And somebody else can save you the trouble by giving it to you.

The media will do its part stoking racial resentment to the extreme, and if these men are acquitted perhaps we will be talking about Minneapolis the city that used to be.

    MarkSmith in reply to NotCoach. | May 29, 2020 at 11:08 pm

    Media is just doing their part. It is the Russian and Chinese that are helping stroke the fire combine by Antifa. Combine this by BLM Soro funding, we have a major disaster happening. Add mask to help block identity, and we have an all out war.

    Sadly, this is not going to fair well for blacks. The 68 riots kills the intercity and destroyed opportunities in the black communities like in Detroit.

    Trump needs to say screw it, we are open for business and deal with it. He needs to enlist black leaders to help with this. It can work in his favor if he moves fast.

Mr. Floyd was trying to tell Officer Chauvin that he was having a heart attack (the type where no chest pain is involved): ‘Mr. Floyd said, “I can’t breathe” multiple times and repeatedly said, “Mama” and “please,” as well.’
It is a shame that the officers did not understand this; had they understood this, Mr. Floyd might still be alive today.
Not murder, not police brutality, just a lack of knowledge and training combined with sheer stupidity.

    ray in reply to paracelsus. | May 30, 2020 at 1:35 am

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Resist arrest, resist being put in the car, overload your sick body, die. Another stupid player takes a dirt nap.

      tom_swift in reply to ray. | May 30, 2020 at 6:04 am

      “Playing stupid games” is not generally rewarded with the death penalty. Nor would most of us want it to be.

        Connivin Caniff in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 7:45 am

        Correct. In this case it was these dirty cops playing the “stupid games”. Hopefully, they will pay the full price for it.

    dmi60ex in reply to paracelsus. | May 30, 2020 at 4:09 pm

    Yes but realistically ,they already had called the ambulance and they were undoubtedly watching.
    But the claims of not being able to breathe are like sands in Sahara ,actual distress, mot

The smirk on the PO’s face added to the anger in the video. After looking at his knee on the mans neck, it’s what stood out to me. He heard the concerns of the people and he was saying in that smirk, “I don’t give a F***k and I have the power…

I’d be surprised if he wasn’t on suicide watch

That “mama” really gets me because I read an article, like 40 years ago, that said on the field of War, men always call out to their mothers when they were dying.

I’ve never forgotten that…it broke my heart as a mother

Conservative Beaner | May 29, 2020 at 10:34 pm

I would not want to be on the jury for this trial.

This just gets better and better.

While it was reasonable to assume that Floyd died because of oxygen starvation of the brain due to the compression of his carotid artery by Chauvin’s knee, now we have the ME making the preliminary report that there is no evidence to support this conclusion. And further that Floyd suffered from preexisting conditions which could have led to his death in a high stress situation. Also, no evidence presented that Chauvin knew of these conditions or was qualified to diagnose the fact that Floyd was, in fact, in any distress. After all, Floyd had already refused to enter the vehicle voluntarily following his arrest. At this point, there is no evidence that the arrest of Floyd was not proper or that PC did not exist for said arrest. So, exactly what was Chauvin arrested for? It does not matter how dangerous kneeling on the side of someone’s neck might be, if it did not cause his death. The PC affidavit actually undermines the case against Chauvin.

As i said in a previous post, kneeling on the side of someone’s neck can be extremely dangerous. And, in this case, it does not appear to have been necessary after the first minute or so. The optics are horrible. But, there does not appear to be sufficient evidence to warrant an arrest. Now, Minneapolis may be facing a false arrest lawsuit along with a wrongful death lawsuit. This why it is usually a good idea to wait for the autopsy to be completed before an arrest is made, where the cause of death is not clearly evident, such as a gunshot wound.

    notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to Mac45. | May 29, 2020 at 11:14 pm

    Clearly he died of the COMMUNIST Chinese Flu.

    Tonight’s Racism and Riots brought you to by the
    DEMOCRAT PARTY.

One other thing. I have warned that violent civil disorders would start shortly. Well, here you go. And, who is driving these incidents?

    Barry in reply to Mac45. | May 29, 2020 at 11:09 pm

    “And, who is driving these incidents?”

    Lessee, the same people that run the state, the city, and the police force? Democrat governor, mayor, city council, DA, police chief, etc.

      GWB in reply to Barry. | May 30, 2020 at 7:20 am

      Nah, it’s someone a bit more impatient with their destruction of America. Most of those folks you mention are just patsies.

The riots are happening because the left needs them as a distraction. Whipping up a frenzy is no problem when the media wants the same result.

I’ll make this deal with any and all LI readers:

I’ll personally knee* your neck for eight minutes, and if you can walk away from it? I’ll buy you a frosty cold can of Fresca soda. Sounds fair.

* I’ve a big fat knee composed of thick bone and something else that’s really hard .. but it isnt bone.

    Tiki in reply to Tiki. | May 29, 2020 at 11:44 pm

    The rate downs? Hot tears of impotent rage.

      Barry in reply to Tiki. | May 30, 2020 at 12:26 am

      Or we know you have no clue. You have no idea how much pressure was applied, none.

        Tiki in reply to Barry. | May 30, 2020 at 7:48 pm

        My offer stands, mr. chickenhawk.

          Barry in reply to Tiki. | May 31, 2020 at 8:34 am

          Your offer, such that it is, is the offer of a keyboard coward.

          I have no idea what your capable of. I do know what I am capable of and trained to do.

          Your casual use of the word “chickenhawk” implies you are not capable of much.

      healthguyfsu in reply to Tiki. | May 30, 2020 at 1:57 am

      LOL…what a giant load of crap. You go first, since you seem eager to defend those that play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

        You’ve inadvertently proved my point; no one wants to go first.

        My Knee demands you bow down to its unsheathed greatness, serf.

      GWB in reply to Tiki. | May 30, 2020 at 7:18 am

      Or maybe it was just the idiotic allusion in your dare.

        Tiki in reply to GWB. | May 30, 2020 at 7:59 pm

        My knee (my knee prefers to be referred to as The Black Death) would crunch through your corded, Conan-like neck in under 90 seconds.

    Mac45 in reply to Tiki. | May 30, 2020 at 12:32 am

    Well, a lot of factors will determine just how much damage you do. Things such as exact placement of the knee in the neck, the amount of weight placed upon the neck, the direction of the force and the musculature of the neck all have an effect on the outcome. People have already made an assumption that the knee on Floyd’s neck directly caused his demise through asphyxiation, strangulation or oxygen deprivation to the brain. Unfortunately, it now appears as though that assumption may be erroneous. It might be a good idea not to be in a big hurry to jump to any more conclusions.

      tom_swift in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 6:16 am

      People have already made an assumption that the knee on Floyd’s neck directly caused his demise through asphyxiation, strangulation or oxygen deprivation to the brain.

      Have they? All we know is a rather unconventional restraint was used, and someone ended up dead. Exact physiological cause of death is of little interest; the important thing is whether the cause of death—whatever it may have been—was related to the restraint.

      Of course this has little to do with whether the restraint was “reasonable” in this particular case.

        Mac45 in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 12:55 pm

        According to just about every person on every cable news channel in the last three days has attributed Floyd’s demise to the pressure of Chauvin’s knee on his neck. So, yeah, they have.

        Now, in order for the death of a restrained person to be a violation of law, one of two things has to occur. The means of restraint has to be directly responsible for the death and/or the person responsible for the detainee has to fail to take reasonable actions to safeguard him. Absent one oif those two conditions, the death is not a result of illegal action.

          Barry in reply to Mac45. | May 31, 2020 at 8:39 am

          Virtue signaling by the right is the absolute worst. All week long the right TV personality’s have made sure to tell us it was murder.

          Not a peep about giving it time for an investigation to occur.

          As you know from our interaction over the years I am pretty tough on people in positions of authority and law enforcement. But I know that video and pictures can be very misleading and it appears this video is incredibly misleading.

    tom_swift in reply to Tiki. | May 30, 2020 at 6:41 am

    I’ll personally knee* your neck for eight minutes, and if you can walk away from it

    For the purposes of this simulation, do I have to be struggling with the police at the same time?

    Having never struggled with the police, I’m afraid I’d have to practice a bit first.

      MarkS in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 8:44 am

      Where in the video did you see any “struggling”

      Tiki in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 8:34 pm

      Tom, my challenge is no mere simulation; its a live stream demonstration.

      Understand, we’re both going into this as newbies. I’ve never knee’d a neck before- which means I may unwittingly vary pressure and move my knee around to find that squishy neck sweet spot. With that said, and if you insist, I’d reluctantly cuff you about the head and shoulders for added realism.

The training of the officers appears to be insufficient at best. Not surprising in that this is the same department where an officer shot an unarmed women who apparently startled him while seated in his patrol car not too long ago. I find it difficult to believe that these officers were unaware of the danger they placed MR Floyd in.

That said, a person resisting being put into handcuffs or placed into a cruiser is much more difficult than one might believe. I am not referring to fighting, someone just using body weight and squirming is difficult to control for a single officer or even two officers without them escalating use of non lethal force.

If one person, not on PCP etc, and already in handcuffs can successfully prevent four officers from placing him in a cruiser that is a multifaceted problem:
1. Recruiting quality applicants who possess both the mental and physical attributes required
2. Retention of trained personnel, pay level, promotion opportunity, morale -does the city have the PD back or will the city throw them under the bus
3. Initial and ongoing training together with ongoing evaluations of physical condition and ability to pass performance based testing

Being a cop is a very difficult job. Simply graduating an academy and not being fired at the end of a probationary period isn’t good enough. Departments must demand much more from their officers. Taxpayers need to be willing to fund the increased costs that a department committed to ensuring a truly professional force will require.

    Connivin Caniff in reply to CommoChief. | May 30, 2020 at 7:49 am

    If you have to train a cop to be a human being, you shouldn’t hire him in the first place.

      CommoChief in reply to Connivin Caniff. | May 30, 2020 at 12:13 pm

      CC,

      See point one, recruit quality personnel.

      Training is intended to suppress the natural human instincts and desires. It should instill discipline and professionalism that allows the established procedures for each event to be followed. Thus replacing the base human instincts.

Wait a minute. I’m not a doctor, but I believe depressing someone’s neck can kill them in two different and separate ways. One of them is asphyxia or strangulation, which was addressed and ruled out. The other way it can kill is by depressing the carotid artery and stopping blood flow to the brain, which most definitely causes a cardiac event. It’s called a “blood choke,” and based on this I don’t think the cop is out of the woods.

    notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital in reply to maxmillion. | May 29, 2020 at 11:54 pm

    So the MN Democrats – Mayor and Governor included are….

    DOING A COVER UP!!!!!!!!!!!

    Mac45 in reply to maxmillion. | May 30, 2020 at 12:41 am

    Sufficient depression of the carotid artery can cause heart failure due to oxygen starvation of the brain resulting in heart failure. However, there is usually some evidence to indicate this; such as hemorrhaging in the brain similar to a stroke. Death due to carotid compression, which is classified as strangulation, is usually readily identifiable.

      maxmillion in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 1:11 am

      Yes thank you for basically repeating what I said. It has not yet been ruled out. THAT is the point.

        healthguyfsu in reply to maxmillion. | May 30, 2020 at 1:59 am

        I’d imagine the preliminary report from the exact same area of the body would have mentioned something.

        These things tend to be handled regionally rather than using an organ systems approach.

        Mac45 in reply to maxmillion. | May 30, 2020 at 12:46 pm

        Actually, it has been pretty much ruled out, as the initial report said there was NO sign of asphyxiation or STRANGULATION. What has not been done is to categorically state exactly what the ME believes the exact cause of death was?

          Barry in reply to Mac45. | May 31, 2020 at 8:44 am

          I’ll just note here that all those that bought the initial reaction to the video and invested their selves in murder can not now read the preliminary autopsy and understand their video induced notions have been ruled out.

          100% ruled out. The mans death was not caused by the knee holding him down.

Let me state for the record that if I were to ram my knee into somebody’s neck and hold them on the ground for eight minutes, and said gentleman promptly expired, the police would have me in jail under a murder charge in less than an hour, and conviction would be a sure thing.

    Mac45 in reply to georgfelis. | May 30, 2020 at 12:44 am

    Not unless they can prove that your actions were unlawful and actually caused the person’s death. This idea that people have to be arrested, even of the evidence does not conclusively support guilt, is disturbing.

      MarkS in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 8:47 am

      seems to me that any action that causes a death, absent self defense, is illegal

        Mac45 in reply to MarkS. | May 30, 2020 at 12:59 pm

        The action has to directly cause the death of the other person, or be unlawful itself and materially contribute to the death. If a shoplifter runs from police and suffers a heart attack, from an existing medical condition, the pursuing LEO is not responsible for the death.

        Barry in reply to MarkS. | May 31, 2020 at 8:47 am

        Seems to me you haven’t given any thought to this.

        Mac just did it for you. You should pay attention and try to learn something.

    healthguyfsu in reply to georgfelis. | May 30, 2020 at 2:02 am

    They’d have plenty of other charges to tack on, too, like felony assault and battery since you are a regular joe civilian, not a police officer.

    dmi60ex in reply to georgfelis. | May 30, 2020 at 3:59 pm

    You are assuming he rammed his knee in to his neck .
    Properly done that hold can be done with actually no pressure at all. You are not holding them down you are keeping them from raising up ?A person in delerium which is what they believed he had needs to be restrained.
    Now I dont know how much pressure used and neither does anyone else but If he put all down in a ram. Old George would have been unconscious very soon in his health condition and visible damage to tissue ,vertebrae and possibly the windpipe.
    The fact of what the ME found and his consciousness for three minutes or so just does not support excessive force.
    Thursday the DA said there was evidence against charges
    We get a hot night in Minnesota and Friday there is charges.
    Doesnt pass the smell test.

    He also mentioned possible other intoxicants which suggests they rushed this thing and he doesn’t have them back yet .
    Not a good , look ,it.smells of charges now sort it out later.
    Lastly Floyd stated he couldn’t breathe and collapsed.on the ground.
    What Jurer is going to buy that something he did caused something that already was happening??
    And if there was something he supposedly did that accentuated that ,why was that not in the charging documents.again a rush job.He supposedly continued
    something too long that is not shown to be excessive.

    If he was doing it properly and not putting excessive pressure on ,how can doing it too long be a criminal act.
    That is going to be a tough row to how ,especially with rescue there with 4 minutes of George passing out

    Poster above noticed the puddle beside George and noted this is a knoen affect of delerium

Calling out for his mama while he was dying is so hard to fathom for me. “I can’t breathe” is synonymous with short of breath, a classic heart attack symptom. It is the “fearful” terminology rather than the correct terminology.Had there been one word of recognition of a human being on the ground, it would be easierto understand Chauvin’s position but there was none. When Floyd went limp, why did he continue his hold? The Garner case was tough to look at but nearly as hard as this one. What could Floyd have done to save his life once he stopped resisting? He couldn’t get a do-over. It seems to me that his heart attack was already underway before the neck hold. If so, he was probably doomed, and the officer is not responsible for the death. Unless an ambulance could have immediately been on the scene the first time he said he couldn’t breathe, Floyd had no chance of survival. Even with immediate medical attention, he might have died. No matter how the case turns out, Chauvin’s life as he knew it is gone forever. It is eerie to watch a man’s last moments and so invasive, and I wonder if Chauvin has any remorse.

    gonzotx in reply to willow. | May 30, 2020 at 12:40 am

    As I said, soldiers cry out for their mothers consistently on the field of battle when they are dying.

    Your mother is the person who brought you into this world and the person we are closest to, unconditionally. It’s where we go mentally when fear of death comes to help us ease the psychic pain of something so uninmanageable as our death.

      willow in reply to gonzotx. | May 30, 2020 at 12:46 am

      What I meant by so hard to fathom is that it was hard to take in that I saw a man dying and reaching out to his mother. An even more disturbing example is testimony showed that Sharon Tate did the same in the Manson murders.

    Mac45 in reply to willow. | May 30, 2020 at 12:47 am

    In the first place, this man is under arrest for a criminal act. So, why should he be believed, when he says that he can not breathe? Do you honestly think that criminals do not lie in order to avoid arrest? Once Floyd appeared to be unconscious, medical assistance should have been called immediately. However, we do not know exactly when paramedics were called.

      willow in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 12:56 am

      That is what I meant by there was no do-over. He obviously was resisting arrest. At first, the “I can’t breathe” is certainly questionable. The larger point is that his heart attack was underway and nothing was likely going to save him. And it is heartbreaking to hear him call out for his mama because he was indeed, dying with no dignity, for an alleged fake $20. On a side note, it is reported that Chauvin’s wife filed for divorce.

        ray in reply to willow. | May 30, 2020 at 1:44 am

        Saying “I can’t breathe” for several minutes is obviously false. Saying it requires breathing. QED.

          willow in reply to ray. | May 30, 2020 at 1:48 am

          The person often means being short of breath or having trouble breathing. The phrase is one of panic to send a quick message, “I’m in trouble.”

          tom_swift in reply to ray. | May 30, 2020 at 6:29 am

          I’ve been in the same situation myself (and no, I can’t pin it on the police). “I can’t breathe” does NOT mean “no air is passing through my lungs.” It means “not ENOUGH air is passing through my lungs to sustain human life,” and the situation is sufficiently dire that I realize it and need to do something about it, pronto.

          GWB in reply to ray. | May 30, 2020 at 8:19 am

          If he had been “calling out” for the several minutes, yes. But his voice diminishes and becomes much less forceful. Toward the end, he’s barely gasping.

          BTW, no one has mentioned the blood from his nose (mentioned by a bystander in the video) nor the foam on his mouth.

      dmi60ex in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 4:19 pm

      Medical assistance was called when he dropped and collapsed.I read that somewhere ,it may be in charging documents.
      What gets me is the the number of people assume that maximum force is used.
      Most of the information ,I’ ve ever seen is you use just what you need to get the job done and what they needed to do with him was minimal.

    tom_swift in reply to willow. | May 30, 2020 at 6:24 am

    Unless an ambulance could have immediately been on the scene the first time he said he couldn’t breathe, Floyd had no chance of survival.

    I wouldn’t say that. I’ve had three heart attacks and one bout of tachycardia, but I’m still here typing. An ambulance would of course be appropriate, but we’re not always talking about an instantaneous death sentence just because the cardiac system is throwing a tantrum. Mr Floyd might still be around if he’d been handled only slightly differently.

Uggh typos galore.

thad_the_man | May 30, 2020 at 12:42 am

Assume there is no proof that the officer killed. All they really have to do is prove the officer commited a felony, any felony, and it’s felony murder.

    Mac45 in reply to thad_the_man. | May 30, 2020 at 12:50 am

    Not exactly. The felony has to be a result of the officer’s actions and it has to include an act which would be reasonably assumed to cause a person’s death. So, what felony did Chauvin commit, which led to Floyd’s death?

      MarkS in reply to Mac45. | May 30, 2020 at 8:48 am

      assaulting a proned out handcuffed suspect might qualify

        Mac45 in reply to MarkS. | May 30, 2020 at 1:03 pm

        But, restraining an arrestee would not be a crime. In fact, battering a handcuffed arrestee is not necessarily a felony. You are reaching here.

I guess the medical question for me is how is it determined that the neck hold in part caused conditions for the heart attack when he said he couldn’t breathe [short of breath] much earlier in the incident, which could have been the start of the heart attack? It seems like the neck hold showed depraved indifference for a dying man [not a crime] versus a crime of murder.

    Sanddog in reply to willow. | May 30, 2020 at 2:59 am

    That would explain the 3rd degree murder charge. Chauvin’s actions (kneeling on the neck of a prone, restrained suspect for nearly 9 minutes) would seem to indicate he had no regard for Floyd’s life. Chauvin can’t be the only cop in the USA that doesn’t know it’s dangerous to place a handcuffed suspect into a prone position through the use of force for that length of time. Even the law enforcement officers in my podunk little town were shaking their heads and calling Chauvin an idiot.

Obama was soros’ and the Chi Comm’s organ grinder monkey, who danced on the US flag for 8 years while soros and Xi grinded away. Trump thwarted the plan.

    So now it’s a shooting war via white antifa lunatic and black communists. Looters are paid with a tv to join in. The swamp media throws gas on the fire.

    No outrage from AG Barr as lawlessness spreads from the swamp to the streets.

    We are not going to fold. Either is the swamp. Here comes martial law. Well, at least that monkey fauci got us used to it.
    Let’s get this over with and crush their criminal leaders once and for all.

A Few Possibly Connected, Meaningful, and Pull-Through Thoughts

Maybe the ME hasn’t taken a gross or microscopic look yet at the heart wall or the inside of the decedent’s coronary arteries. If not, that might explain the absence of any comment thus far re the condition of the cardiovascular system of same at the time of death and immediately prior.

My relatively educated but non-medical/non-legal guess on the main cause of death — based on the available evidence and other information made public that I’ve seen thus far — is: myocardial infarction — a/k/a a heart attack. On the basis of this lay, imagined finding, MPD Officer Chauvin’s, among others’, recorded and naked arrest-misconduct may turn out to be merely contributory as a cause and, thus, not proximate enough, this wild guess runs, to be culpable of — ie, legally blameworthy and responsible for — either the 3-D murder or the 2-D manslaughter charges under MN law. But then there’s the possible federal case as well.

In any case, if, after all the pathology work is done, including the receipt of results from any possibly pending toxicology, and the main COD turns out to sound like what’s above or thereabout, it’s gonna be a real and dramatic close one in court, no?

I would agree, then, with the sense that Minneapolis/St Paul might need to get very, very ready. Can you handle the truth, TCs? Not likely, it seems, at least if, from all the images we’ve seen thus far, they’re just not really interested in and dedicated to far better results. Hopefully, however, we’ve all been exposed, at various levels of familiarity and effect, to the worst of it.

Anyway, so much of this, of course, is sheer conjecture, but with all the political angling and interest brought expressly to the fore, it’s a real heart-twister, and kind of a thrill to wonder about, the way I see it happening and moving forward. We’ll know better, probably, about this and possible more when Dr Michael Baden brings his eyes, hands, and brilliant mind to task.

We all need an apolitical, dispassionate and disinterested, expert and independent opinion about a lot these days, and certainly no less than a second post-mortem exam-opinion by a competent and professional, most seasoned pathologist.

I guess what I’m adding here is, we all know that we need more and more reliable authority these days, authority we can trust.

The present case seems to be one of those lightning rod-like matters that captures at once our ultimate concerns, as well as our personal and national aspirations. Many, many of us can easily empathize with the victim’s family and his ethnic community, locally and beyond, as certainly no one likes to be on the receiving end of any kind of injustice, especially injustice stemming from any misconduct committed, or right conduct omitted, or both, by the police and associated with death. Police are expected, as it’s their sworn duty, to serve and protect us, and not harm or endanger us — either directly or indirectly, whether in a depraved state or in a negligent manner. Never, and with no excuses.

Maybe there is a chance, then, that this case’s careful and correct resolution, its just and fair judicial disposition, if it comes to pass, is probably as good a time and place as any to help start us — ie, those who see it as vital and essential to maintain and promote a society based on ordered liberty and justice — back on the road, maybe, to what used to be called, overall, normalcy. I’m thinking big-picture United States, at least, to be sure.

Or whatever normalcy really is that makes us feel better-connected to one another, no matter our takes and outlooks, our legitimate fears and needs, and each of us happy to be alive in this country.

Mere words, I know; if only they had the power. . . .

In the meantime, we gotta get past — ie, in one way or another immune to any more of the effects of — this damn covidian virus and its awful pandemic. Maybe it’s a model-opportunity for bigger and better things to come.

Let us all aim for immunity from harm, for recovery and healing. Being badly injured, we need them all fully to do their patient, vital work.

If we’re to live in peace, with normalcy as the customary rule, rather than the rare exception, we have no alternative but to heal ourselves before we attempt to heal others.

Shalom to all, or however it may be said otherwise, respectively and deservedly, with like, good effect.

notamemberofanyorganizedpolicital | May 30, 2020 at 3:49 am

interesting comments from round web…….

There’s more to “this story” than meets the eye: St. Paul cop identified as person smashing Autozone store in Minneapolis. Remember – the Weather Underground recruited ex-military and it wouldn’t surprise me if they infilitrated law enforcement.

With the connection to Klobachar – isn’t it “strange” that the Derek Chauvin and George Floyd worked together and knew each other working for a security agency? I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the video was staged – like everything else Barry did when he was President.

The spontaneity seems a little too well planned, doesn’t it? With plenty of white Antifa and BLM signs at the “protests”. All as Barry is being exposed for Organizing the cabal to remove Trump from office.

Seems like Barry knows Sullivan will be forced to drop the Flynn case; and we’ll learn he funded ISIS, the Arab Spring and he’s along time groomed Iranian subversive groomed by Val Jar.

The Wuhan virus didn’t work as expected.

…….

Suspects St. Paul Cop Provoking Riots as Shadowy Man in Black Caught Smashing Up Autozone

https://www.dcclothesline.com/2020/05/29/internet-suspects-cops-provoking-riots-as-shadowy-man-in-black-caught-smashing-up-autozone/

……..

Things that make you go hmmmm:

– the victim and the perpetrator both worked in the ‘private security’ business of a nightclub

– that nightclub ‘is rumored to’ be a money laundering enterprise

– a recent news report stated that $900,000 in counterfeit money had been confiscated in the general area

– the victim of the police actions had had the police called on him for passing counterfeit bills

– the rent a riot crowd ‘may’ have just had a ‘money laundering’ scheme backfire on them when these bussed in protesters discover they aren’t getting the cash they were promised

– maybe their substitute payment will be to be administered the Gates Wuhan virus vaccine

………

Dang… good call. I was merely thinking it was Soros-sewn anarchy, but the Zero crew was always rather skilled at creating a media frenzy to avoid attention.

    isn’t it “strange” that the Derek Chauvin and George Floyd worked together and knew each other working for a security agency?

    It’s conceivable that Chauvin already had an opinion of Floyd, pegging him as someone who might, say, feign physical distress in order to manipulate police. Such a hypothetical might depict Chauvin’s actions in a more reasonable light.

      snopercod in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 8:14 am

      What’s _really_ strange is that a man like Floyd who had a long criminal history (5 times in jail) could even get a job at a security agency.

      GWB in reply to tom_swift. | May 30, 2020 at 8:25 am

      “More reasonable” perhaps. But certainly not “reasonable”.
      Kneeling on someone’s neck is not a “reasonable” action.

        Barry in reply to GWB. | May 31, 2020 at 9:05 am

        Restraining someone that poses a risk the their selves or others is absolutely reasonable.

        You have no idea how much if any pressure was being applied.

Don’t the police have better stuff to do, like arresting mother and daughter pairs as they go to the park together? Priorities…

mister naturel | May 30, 2020 at 7:01 am

Andrew Branca gives a good overview of this case at LOSD

    Mr. Branca clearly explains “excited delirium “ in his latest LOSD. I hope everyone here knows how lucky we are to get his insight here at LI. Bookmark his blog. You will be more informed because of it.

I read Prof. Jacobson’s article with a sense of dread. He mentioned this condition I had never heard of, excited delirium. I did a quick search and saw videos that were all really upsetting.

Physiologically there are a whole lot of things that go on, the bottom line is the person is crazy, feverish, and somehow because of chemical reactions involving muscle tissues, incredibly strong. It’s a thing, LEOs know about, they sometimes get training because it is dangerous and deadly.

So this incident is more complicated than just one officer apparently kneeling on George Floyd’s neck. The irony is they may have been trying to keep him from getting hurt.

I wonder what training those LEOs did have, since somehow they thought putting George on his stomach was appropriate.

Coming on the heels of the Coronavirus Panic of 2020, my takeaway is that the American people have become very susceptible to media manias. The MSM must be very proud of themselves as all that ad money rolls in.

Listening and reading various media outlets, I’ve yet to hear from a single LEO who didn’t condemn the actions taken against Floyd

    Barry in reply to MarkS. | May 31, 2020 at 9:13 am

    You are only allowed to hear what the media outlets push.

    The real story is now getting out and it is 100% at odds with the communist pushed story.

He died of Covid-19. Or similar respiratory failure.

My larger problem is no one heard about the Louisville murder of an EMT by cops (who weren’t charged and I don’t think they even were put on paid vacation).

Has anyone else heard about Duncan Lamp? (See James Bovard’s coverage at American Conservative).

The police have a problem. The training says you can suffocate someone to death if you keep putting pressure on someone IN CUSTODY for several minutes. They could have put shackles or find some other way to restrain him if they thought he was going to be combative, and there were 3 more officers there. It isn’t a Trayvon or Michael Brown one on one, it is 4 on 1. They had options.

But two more things in the shadows will probably be overlooked – Amy Klobuchar and others failed to charge him and the cop had a long record of brutality complaints. BAD COPS ARE NEVER FIRED, at least until they kill someone in an egregious way or the wrong someone. Secondly, they are trained to think they are in a Steven King movie and Citizens are actually evil monsters that want to kill them and will if they hesitate.

There was the SWATting in Kansas where someone called in on the info line (not 911) and said they were going to kill cops and them selves, and a totally innocent man was shot to death because he came to his door and reached for his waistband, and “I thought he was reaching for a weapon so I had to kill him!”.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/us/training-officers-to-shoot-first-and-he-will-answer-questions-later.html

Look up puppycide. He just had to shoot that chihuahua though it was on a tether! This happens too often. Maybe that is how the two Central Park “karens” should have ended, with the police arriving, the dog barking, and getting shot by the police. I’m actually suprised it didn’t happen.

So we train cops to be paranoid about hesitating for a moment to kill and to use their adrenaline fog and high, then when the inevitable happens, we complain about them being violent thugs instead of Officer Friendly.

Meanwhile we give them Qualified immunity so they can steal and murder (Bovard’s latest is about that), and “Police bill of rights” so they don’t even have to be investigated or interrogated when something like this happens. Minnesota has one. The complaint is too much Due process protects the criminals. It does but Cops get far more. You can’t get rid of the bad apples, only hope they will move down the road to the next county and abuse their citizens instead.

    Mac45 in reply to tz. | May 30, 2020 at 1:52 pm

    Let’s put all of this into perspective, shall we. In the first place, there are approximately 1 million LEOs in the US. On any given day, there are several million arrest and other enforcement actions. The number of actual wrongful deaths, at the hands or through the actions of LEOs, in a year is less than 50. Usually much less. Do LEOs and LEs make mistakes? Yes. Do they have use practices which are inherently dangerous and probably not necessary, except in extreme circumstances? Yes. Do some LEOs willingly engage in unlawful activities? Yes. The reason why we are captivated by such occurrences is because they are so rare. 10-20 people get murdered iin Chicago in any given weekend and no one even notices, Why? Bcause this is not an unusual occurrence.

    The EMT who was shot in Louisville has been cherry picked by the news media. The LEOs were serving a no-knock search warrant, at least from reports. They, again reportedly, were at the wrong location. According to reports made by the EMT’s boyfriend, there was noise at the door of the residence. He armed himself and when the door was broken down fire at the people outside. They returned fire and the EMT was struck and killed. Should the LEOs have knocked and identified themselves before making entry? IMHO, yes. If they were, indeed, at the wrong location, should they have double checked before making entry? Again, IMHO, yes. WAs the resident justified in shooting at them? If they were not recognizably LEOs, then probably.The death was the result if a bunch of actions, some of which were errors on the part of the LEOs. But, it was not intentional.

    While I agree thaat attempting to control a supine person by placing a knee on the side of his neck, is not a good idea. It is inherently dangerous. And, even if they thought he was faking medical distress, he could have been shackled or pressure could have been applied to his back to hold him against the tire. But, there is no evidence that the knee on the side of Floyd’s neck caused his death, or even contributed to it.

    Now, let me set you straight on Qualified Immunity and the Policeman’s Bill of Rights. Qualified immunity does not apply to actions which the LEO knew or should have known were not legal or proper or were not taken as part of his authorized duties under the law. The reason for qualified immunity is to limit the number of gratuitous tort actions taken for revenge or to influence a LEOs lawful actions. The PBOR exists because, a person can not be compelled to give evidence against himself. So, to COMPEL LEOs to respond to the questioning of their departments, the PBOR was drafted. Under it, a LEO is entitled to representation before he makes any statements in a case which could have negative ramifications professionally or criminally. The interview/interrogation must follow certain rules. And, if, after all the conditions have been met, the LEO refuses to give a statement, he faces justified termination. The reason why most bad apples, in LE, seem to get away with their misdeeds, is because the LEA fails to properly investigate the activities involved. They violate the LEOs due process rights as well as contracts. So, they very often take the easy way out and accept the LEO’s resignation and he becomes someone else’s problem.

    Now, one last thiking about perspective. When it comes to LE, most people have no idea what the job entails. I suggest that if your local LEA has a citizen ride along program, you avail yourself of it. Then you can make an informed decision as to what actually goes on in LE. I have lost count of the number of citizens who were highly critical of LEOs, until the rode along a few times. It was truly amazing to see how their attitudes changed.

    LE involves human beings. Human beings make mistakes and some even knowingly engage in criminal actions. LE is not perfect. But, you have to keep it in perspective. If LEOs weree running amuck unjustifiably killing and injuring the citizenry, then it wouldn’t even make the news. Sort of like the weekly murder rate in Chicago and Baltimore.

Josey Yahoo | May 30, 2020 at 12:19 pm

Oh, okay, a previously undiagnosed preexisting medical condition, kind of like Joe Scarborough’s intern, Lori Klausutis, I don’t believe in coincidence. Even if Floyd had a heart condition, it’s a moot point, would not restricting blood flow in compressing the carotid artery aggravate said condition, in addition to the face down prone position with the added weight imposed upon him? Not to mention, this dangerous form of restraint is not a means taught or sanctioned by any law enforcement. Even the infamous “Carotid Restraint”, once taught in police academies was abandoned, due to deaths, long before Chauvin was a cop. As such, it appears to me that indeed, these actions were the actual and proximate cause of Floyd’s death.

Question? With all the many black people standing around videoing the situation for how long: over 9 minutes while the officers were restraining the man, why did none of them make any effort toward the police, including pushing the officer off the man being arrested???

That simple act of civil disobedience kindness toward the victim who is of the black community could have saved the man, no???

Are those members of the black community doing the videoing and chatting with the police now complicit in the death of the black man??? They did nothing to help.

The guy was heavy set and older and drunk. All of those pre-existing conditions would have made getting his hands cuffed behind his back very difficult to withstand, let alone being laid face down on the concrete and then sat on. Claustrophobia and pain alone could have caused a hard attack. If we can take down a 5-ton elephant with a tranquilizer gun, why do we still use brute force on a human?

    Barry in reply to Victoria. | May 31, 2020 at 9:23 am

    “…why do we still use brute force on a human?”

    Are you suggesting we shoot every suspect with a tranquillizer gun before they get unruly?

    I suggest you try to handle a 200 pound + man that is intent upon doing you harm and then tell us how you feel.

    I hear there is a rainbow unicorn sale today. Might want to check it out.

The comment was uncalled for. Decent people can feel sorry for what they saw and maybe present “unicorn” ideas and still abhor anarchy. There may be weak grounds here for a murder conviction, but the optics here are irreversible. A jerk of a guy may get denied due process, and a man who had no options but to die facedown in handcuffs for a possible alleged forgery is a hellish result.

    Willow, I was with you up to the point where you opined that Floyd “had no options.” This case is about how much force is reasonable when a police officer is attempting to subdue an unruly suspect. Mr. Floyd always had to option to peacefully submit to his arrest, lawful or otherwise. Watch the videos and you will see that he was not going to peacefully submit, due to alcohol, drugs or plain stupidity. Yes, he didn’t “deserve to die” but he would be alive today if he had not made the choice to resist arrest.

    Barry in reply to willow. | May 31, 2020 at 4:22 pm

    “The comment was uncalled for.”

    Right, because we no longer need enforce the law should the criminals resist.

    Apparently you’re on the way to the rainbow unicorn sale as well. Better stock up.

I really get what you are saying RL. Please tell me how to stay still when having a heart attack, though. That’s what I mean by no options.

He knew he was dying, and there was not a thing he could do about it.

I don’t condone any actions of antifa or the rioters.

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