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Law of Self Defense: Man Knocks Out Woman in Self-Defense?

Law of Self Defense: Man Knocks Out Woman in Self-Defense?

A use-of-force legal analysis of a white man knocking out a young black woman attacking him

https://player.vimeo.com/video/311980115

This week’s Case of the Week involves a video that has been making the rounds on the internet showing a large white man apparently knocking out a smaller young black woman with a single punch. I’ve seen reports that the man has been arrested and presume that he will attempt to justify his punch as a lawful use of defensive force.

Here’s that video:

The video is too abbreviated to allow for a comprehensive analysis of the likely lawfulness of the man’s punch, but in this Case of the Week, we can at least touch upon the relevant issues that will be key to any such analysis.

The general scenario portrayed by the video appears to be a large white male surrounded by a group of angry shouting black women. I can’t decipher any specific words, but the women have collectively surrounded the man and are yelling at him for reasons unknown. The man is turning around and looking at the various black women surrounding him, his arms at his sides.

Eventually, one of the women commits a simple battery upon the man by shoving him forcefully in the back. When the man turns to look in the woman’s direction in response to the shove, she aggressively closes proximity on him with a hand raised towards his face. The man responds to this aggressive approach, in the immediate aftermath of the simple battery committed against him presumably by this woman but certainly by the mob, by shoving the woman away from him—he does not close distance towards her but merely stands in place.

In response to the man’s shove, the woman charges the man with her hands raised in a fighting position, apparently drawing her right fist back in preparation to throw a punch at the man. Before she can do so, however, she runs into the man’s left hook, which drops her to the ground. The man attempts no further physical force after that point. At no point did the man advance towards the woman.

It is noteworthy that the video begins with the frame focused on a white woman and child. It is unstated if these two people have any relationship to the man, but if so, we would need to consider defense of others as well as self-defense in this analysis.

It is also important to note that the man is dealing not just with a single aggressor in the form of the woman who initially commits the simple battery against him and then continues her aggression towards him, but rather a mob of women acting in concert. Each member of a mob is responsible for the unlawful conduct of the mob as a whole.

As with all use-of-force legal analysis, the touchstone is the five elements of self-defense: innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness.

With respect to the first element of innocence, we can’t tell from the video what led to this confrontation, but the first act of physical violence we observe is the simple battery committed (apparently) by the black woman who would end up knocked down—that is, her forceful shove of the man from behind. She follows this shove by then aggressively closing on the man with her right hand raised towards his face. At no point does the man attempt to approach the woman. Rather it is consistently the woman who approaches the man.

Having just been shoved for no apparent lawful reason, this aggressive conduct by the black woman would be sufficient to give the man a reasonable expectation that she intended to use additional unlawful force against him. He is, of course, generally entitled to use defensive force to defend himself against unlawful force directed towards him, subject to the other elements of self-defense.

With respect to the second element of imminence, each time the black woman closes aggressively on the man, especially after having already committed a simple battery against him, there would be reasonable grounds for the man to perceive an imminent threat of further unlawful force against him.

With respect to the third element of proportionality, the man was apparently subject to, and continued to face, a threat of non-deadly aggressive force, and so he would be entitled to use at most non-deadly defensive force in response. A single barehanded punch of the type thrown by the man would normally qualify as mere non-deadly force.

That said, an argument could be made that the considerable disparity of size and likely also strength between the man and the woman was sufficient to make his thrown punch disproportionate and excessive relative to the woman’s apparently intended punch. A counter-argument would be that the man was facing not just the single woman attacker, but a collective mob of which the woman attacker was only one member.

It is noteworthy that the man immediately ceased using force against the attacking woman once her threat against him was neutralized.

With respect to the element of avoidance, I do not know whether these events take place in a stand-your-ground or a duty-to-retreat jurisdiction. Even if these events took place in one of the few duty-to-retreat states, however, most of those impose that duty to retreat only before deadly defensive force can be used. Here no deadly defensive force was used. In addition, even the few duty-to-retreat states impose that duty only where retreat can be accomplished with complete safety. Completely safe retreat from a surrounding mob would seem unlikely.

With respect to the element of reasonableness, in a general sense, much will hinge on the circumstances that led up to this confrontation, and those are not captured in the video clip. Based on what is visible in the video, however, it would appear that the man had a reasonable expectation of being subject to additional imminent attack by the woman.

Overall, it would seem the man has a reasonably robust claim of justification for his punch knocking down the woman attacking him, and any prosecution would be tasked with disproving that claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt Note that this does not mean he can’t be arrested and prosecuted, nor that the state cannot use the criminal justice system to cause him tremendous financial destruction, nor that the media won’t collectively and forever brand him a racist misogynist.

I don’t know whether this man had a reasonable opportunity to avoid finding himself in a situation in which he ultimately felt compelled to punch a young black woman in the face and knock her to the ground, but clearly if he did have such an opportunity, it would have been prudent of him to take advantage of it rather than subject himself to the vagaries of the justice system and the life-destroying hate-fest of the media.

Remember: You carry a gun so you’re hard to kill. Know the law so you’re hard to convict.

–Andrew

Attorney Andrew F. Branca
Law of Self Defense LLC

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Comments

good on him–surrounded by hoodrats, he keeps his family safe–” dismissed. next case. “

    The Friendly Grizzly in reply to texansamurai. | January 19, 2019 at 1:49 pm

    Nolt a chance. The persecutor will milk this for all it is worth to gin up the minority community. The man may finally be found not guilty, but he will be broken financially.

If the aggressor was even a small male, this is a non-starter. I wonder if an open hand hard slip would have been better but that is Monday morning quarterbacking. If women demand equal “rights” then she has the right to be introduced to a haymaker. Street wisdom is often learned first hand.

Damn, they’re noisy. Like the bird house at the zoo.

In a real technical sense, this man used non-lethal force in lawful self defense when he struck the woman the second time, if he is not in a state which requires an attempt to avoid physical confrontation. When he pushed the woman backwards, is more problematical.

In both the push to the man’s back and when the man pushed the woman back, there was sufficient time to eliminate the imminence requirement for lawful self defense.

In the case of the woman rushing the man, after being pushed backward some 15 feet, the rush to attack the man was no longer legitimate self defense. As the man was out of range to commit imminent violence against the woman and made no move to do so, her attack was retaliatory rather than defensive. So, his use of force to stop that attack is lawful.

In the case where he pushed the woman backwards, it does not appear that she touched him immediately before the shove. She had pushed him in the back several seconds before that happened. However, she had closed the gap between them and raised her right hand near his face. Though it does not appear that she was actually attempting to strike him, he can argue that he feared that she would, due to the location of her hand, the way she was brandishing it and her aggressive demeanor. So, he might have a problem claiming the initial push of the woman was lawful.

But, all the defense has to do is show any of a number of films made of a pack of dogs or wolves harassing a bear to make a good case for lawful self defense for the man. The behavior of the women is classing canine hunting pack behavior. Encircle the larger prey, make darting attacks from the rear and withdraw. Unfortunately this one woman thought that the pack had the man cowed and got in his face. When he pushed her away, she made the classic mistake of attacking him. And, she ended up on the canvas. He could not leave without getting into a confrontation with one or more of the encircling harassers.

    Andy in reply to Mac45. | January 20, 2019 at 2:12 am

    She could have retreated.

    After an altercation with an aggressor who claimed victim status after getting his ass got handed to him- and he still kept coming at us to redeem his MMA self identity, the cop asked him if he was in such mortal danger, why didn’t he leave?

    The “victim” got real quiet and sheepish after that.

    Andy in reply to Mac45. | January 20, 2019 at 2:17 am

    Size doesn’t matter. I train with a 95 lb girl who can kill most men with her bare hands in 7-10 seconds.

Morning Sunshine | January 19, 2019 at 12:48 pm

one more thing I noticed at the end. After she went down, and the “OMG”s, the mob ran off.

    You beat me to it.
    After the loud mouths figured out that they weren’t in control of the situation any longer and were dealing with someone who didn’t give a damn about the demographics, they decided to make like Monty and “Run Away!™

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd in reply to Morning Sunshine. | January 20, 2019 at 8:32 pm

    I notice that too. They were fine harassing him until he defend himself.

hell of a punch

The little heathen got exactly what she was asking for. A good old fashioned ass-beating can be beneficial for all involved. This may save her life one day.

    Milhouse in reply to Paul. | January 19, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    What has her religion (if any) got to do with it?

      What religion raises their children to act that way?

        rugburner in reply to Paul. | January 20, 2019 at 11:43 am

        Toxic leftism, the most murderous and destructive religion of the last 100 years.

        Milhouse in reply to Paul. | January 20, 2019 at 1:58 pm

        No religion does so. And there’s no indication in which religion, if any, this girl was raised. But the odds are that if this girl was raised in any religion at all, it was some form of Christianity. Obviously whatever religious teaching she may have received hasn’t stuck. But I have no idea why you have dragged religion into this story.

          I simply noted that she appears to have been raised without any religion. As you yourself agreed, children who have religious upbringing don’t typically behave this way. Take your pick of faith…they all have a moral compass that precludes this sort of feral behavior.

        molonlabe28 in reply to Paul. | January 20, 2019 at 2:06 pm

        The Church of Obama.

Dropped her like a bad habit! Maybe she’ll think twice about trying that again but I doubt it. Some animals never learn.

Paul In Sweden | January 19, 2019 at 1:21 pm

Andrew, Thank you, this is exactly the scenario that I had inquired about on one of your previous posts. I would also like to say that your book is available here in Sweden at a premium cost and I am very much considering it. I would like to know if the Kindle edition has the photos and illustrations that the book contains?

Also, I would like to say that on Andrew’s website there are many product bundles which are quite extensive and look quite fantastic. Some of which I am considering ordering as gifts for some friends and family back in the USA. Everybody should really check out Andrew’s website to see all the resources available.

Keep up the good work Andrew.

Paul In Sweden | January 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm

I can’t wait to see what Tommy Sotomayor will be doing with this video on his Youtube channel. LMAO

I have read that she was 11-years old. I assume that changes what charges are filed and what constitutes self-defense.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6592519/Middle-aged-white-man-punches-black-girl-face-outside-mall.html

    Topnife in reply to Mr85. | January 19, 2019 at 4:55 pm

    Compliance with this law would require obtaining proof of age prior to defending oneself, which is obviously impractical. The defendant here had already used lesser force, to which the attacker had responded by escalating her own attack — the assailant in this case appeared to be undertaking her third attack, with graduating degrees of force.
    Ancient doctrine rules that a man must never strike a “lady”. When a female undertakes repeated physical assaults, she has forfeited her claim to being a lady.

    Milhouse in reply to Mr85. | January 19, 2019 at 10:45 pm

    As far as I know the law of self defense doesn’t care how old the attacker is. One is just as entitled to defend oneself against an innocent baby (e.g. the baby has found a gun and is about to fire it at one) as one is against an adult. The “innocence” element refers to the defender, not to the attacker.

the considerable disparity of size and likely also strength between the man and the woman was sufficient to make his thrown punch disproportionate
*******************************************
this is what I dislike about many laws dealing with self defense.
I am disabled, pretty severely disabled, yet my size can automatically raise questions if/when I have to defend myself.

    Blueshot in reply to dmacleo. | January 19, 2019 at 1:37 pm

    Not really. Your disability is a big thing. Even if you’re much larger than your attacker the fact that you’re so handicapped puts you at a severe disadvantage when dealing with a physical threat.

    You should be okay.

      most often my issues are not noticeable on quick glance. I have a cane I keep in car at all times but force myself to go w/o it as often as possible.
      so…w/o that there is still a predisposition to assume even though I can react and defend myself then moments later have semi paralyzed legs.
      having to prove I am disabled to offset the proportionality of size sucks. and yeah I’ve been there done that.

        Topnife in reply to dmacleo. | January 19, 2019 at 5:07 pm

        Your cane can potentially be a great equalizer. Being disabled myself, I routinely carry mine, and have learned methods of employing what can be a formidable weapon. What’s more, I have been allowed to carry it on board airline flights (don’t know about recently, though).

        Milhouse in reply to dmacleo. | January 19, 2019 at 10:47 pm

        It shouldn’t matter whether your issues are noticeable at a quick glance. You wouldn’t be charged after a quick glance, and the scrutiny required before charging someone would reveal the truth.

        Miles in reply to dmacleo. | January 20, 2019 at 4:51 am

        I am also disabled on full disablity pension and VA compensation due to severe osteo-arthritis, Meniere’s & other maladies.

        Even though I am of large frame as you, it’s not up to me, or you to go around with upper lip covered and crying “Disabled” to make it clear I have a reasonable ‘disparity of force’ defense where someone not so disabled might not.

    ConradCA in reply to dmacleo. | January 19, 2019 at 3:50 pm

    So when your attacked by someone who’s smaller than you what are you suppose to do in order to defend yourself?

      RedEchos in reply to ConradCA. | January 19, 2019 at 4:10 pm

      Apparently you are supposed to wait until the blade slices your flesh or your eye is gouged out, any of which can happen in the blink of an eye

Paul In Sweden | January 19, 2019 at 1:29 pm

Yup, the man is a 51 year old business owner and father of two and was arrested and charged with assault against a juvenile under the age of twelve.

SnowMan Arrested After Delivering A 1 Piece Spicy w/ A Side Of Cajun Rice

–https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCqB190g2ZQ
-RETRIEVED-Sat Jan 19 2019 19:26:51 GMT+0100 (Central European Standard Time)

The girl knocked out in this case is 11 years old.

I’m all for self-defense but when you’re dealing with children you’ve got to be extra careful.

He’s going to have a very difficult time claiming self-defense requiring him to punch her and knock her unconscious. He’s 50 years old and 250 lbs. It was a mistake to punch her. He should have just kept pushing her back away from him.

    Blueshot in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 1:46 pm

    I wish we could edit.

    I’d also like to add that he was surrounded by a mob and that he should play that angle up in his court case. A mob of preteens can be just as dangerous as adults.

    Hexenjager in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 1:58 pm

    When being attacked, at what point do you stop and ask the attackers age before defending yourself? Do you just keep allowing yourself to be attacked until they answer? Or do you assume that if they are “adult” enough to attack a person of your size, then they are adult enough to accept the consequences?

    She made her age immaterial when she and the mob harassed and attacked a grown man. IMO, from what we can see of the video, he used exactly as much force as necessary to end the threat and no more.

      Blueshot in reply to Hexenjager. | January 19, 2019 at 2:06 pm

      I think it obvious that most people can tell the difference between adults and kids.

      She’s eleven. My daughter is eleven. My daughter won’t be mistaken for an adult.

      I’m also not saying he can’t defend himself. What I am saying is that you have to keep your wits about you while defending yourself. Especially when you know you’re facing a pack of children.

      Maybe not punching her in the face would have been a better idea than knocking her unconscious. He could have just kept pushing her off. Or maybe a good slap to the face or upper arm to bring her back to reality.

        healthguyfsu in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 3:29 pm

        Would your daughter act like that? She’s not your daughter…don’t project.

          Blueshot in reply to healthguyfsu. | January 19, 2019 at 3:49 pm

          No my daughter wouldn’t act like that.

          But the fact that the girl in the video is not my daughter all of a sudden means I have to support someone much larger than her knocking her out because she pushed that someone?

          Let’s look at what you’re saying when you strip it down to the bare essentials….

          You’re saying it’s acceptable to knock unconscious a child because said child pushed someone.

          That’s just wrong. You’re wrong to support someone doing something like that.

          He was doing fine just pushing her away. He should have kept doing that.

          Self-defense also includes knowing how to use force but what type of force to use for a given situation.

          He was wrong to punch that girl and knock her out.

        Toranth in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 4:58 pm

        No, it isn’t always easy to tell what age people are. This has become more pronounced as children physically maturely faster due to better health and nutrition.

        For example, if you see a 5′ 8″, physically fit, 195 pound male with smooth cheeks, can you tell how old he is? He might be Ray Rice during his college years… or he might be Tamir Rice, a 12-year old with a toy gun.
        Double it for the fact that men often have trouble with women’s age, and double again for the difference in race making it harder.
        All in all, he likely couldn’t tell more than “Teenager”. And there are about 1500 “child” (under-18) murderers in the US every year.

    alaskabob in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 2:05 pm

    The ghost of Trayvon is back. So… how did he know see was 11? I’ve seen 20 year olds that look teenagers… and teens that look older. Of course they will find the picture of here several years back.

      Blueshot in reply to alaskabob. | January 19, 2019 at 2:17 pm

      Trayvon? Zimmerman didn’t know Trayvon was 17 because yes Trayvon looked like an adult.

      But remember when the family and the media showed the picture of a young Trayvon? That picture made it obvious that the family was trying to say Trayvon was a kid because Trayvon in the picture was a kid. Even I when, I first saw that picture, said how in the world did Zimmerman shoot this unarmed kid? It was only after we found out that the picture was an old picture and that Trayvon no longer looked like the kid in that picture that many people, including me, changed their minds as to the guilt of Zimmerman.

      Your Trayvon comment proves my point.

      Children look like children.

      They don’t look like adults. A eleven year old girl is not going to look like an adult. Yes a 17 year old girl could look like an adult but that’s because she’s already near to being an adult. She only has a little more to travel before being an adult.

      This guy can not claim he was dealing with an adult. He knew she was a child.

      Defending himself and his family is valid. Knocking a unarmed child out with a left hook? How would you even come close to saying that was acceptable self-defense?

      I think some of you are defending this because of racial issues but just don’t want to admit it.

        tom_swift in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 3:23 pm

        I think some of you are defending this because of racial issues but just don’t want to admit it.

        I try to be polite, even online, but if that’s all you have to offer then why don’t you just fuck off.

          Blueshot in reply to tom_swift. | January 19, 2019 at 3:29 pm

          “I think some of you are defending this because of racial issues but just don’t want to admit it.

          I try to be polite, even online, but if that’s all you have to offer then why don’t you just fuck off.”

          Obviously I offered more. Just read my posts.

          But I stand by what I said. Way too many people are making decisions on this incident based on skin color.

          If it was reversed and the man was black and girl white we’d be seeing the same people saying the white man was right now suddenly say the black man was wrong.

          Conversely there are also a lot of people on the other side (like those at The ROOT) who would also flip sides in the skin color was reversed.

        Milhouse in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 10:57 pm

        Tamir Rice looked like an adult.

        You were completely right about “chimp out”, but you’re wrong here. In addition to his not being expected to guess his attacker’s age, it shouldn’t matter anyway.

        And your claim that he shouldn’t have knocked her out, how was he supposed to control that? He had no way of knowing when delivering the punch what effect it would have. He punched her to stop her attacking him, not to injure her.

          Gremlin1974 in reply to Milhouse. | January 20, 2019 at 12:06 am

          “He punched her to stop her attacking him, not to injure her.”

          And that is the major difference.

          Blueshot in reply to Milhouse. | January 20, 2019 at 12:53 am

          “Tamir Rice looked like an adult.”

          Have you seen pictures of him? He didn’t look like an adult male. He looked like a 12 year old boy.

          Also the main difference with him is he had a gun. Turned out to just be a pellet gun but the police couldn’t have known that the moment they pulled up to him.

          A gun is a game changer. If this girl had a gun or a knife or some other weapon I’d have no problem with her getting the shit beat out of her.

          In this case though she had nothing.

          “You were completely right about “chimp out”, but you’re wrong here. In addition to his not being expected to guess his attacker’s age, it shouldn’t matter anyway.”

          I said nothing about guessing age. I have said and stand by the statement that you can tell the difference between a kid and an adult. No way this twelve year old girl passes for an adult.

          “And your claim that he shouldn’t have knocked her out, how was he supposed to control that? He had no way of knowing when delivering the punch what effect it would have. He punched her to stop her attacking him, not to injure her.”

          He’s a full size man. She’s a child. He should have enough sense to know that he’s outmatching her by a country mile and maybe he shouldn’t go 100% self-defense.

          I’m not saying the man can’t defend himself. I’m saying he shouldn’t have punched like he did. Just keep pushing her back or maybe a slap at the most.

          Toranth in reply to Milhouse. | January 20, 2019 at 2:31 am

          Tamir Rice was 5′ 8″ and 195 pounds. He looked young – under 20 – but certainly did not look like a 12 year old to most people.

          Like the Trayvon Martin situation, the pictures you tend to see online are those taken of him years ago.

        rugburner in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 11:48 am

        Who cares about age when a mob of them are acting aggressively in your direction. Knowing as we do the potential violence of mobs such as these it is common sense to defend yourself using ANY means necessary. “Youths” kill people all the time.

    Mac45 in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 2:42 pm

    First of all, how did the man know that this female was 11 years old? Did she present ID? Also, the AGE of an attacker does is not a legal factor in whether the force used in self defense is lawful. The female may use her age as a defense for a charge of assault leveled against her, but it can not be used against the man. Size and the ability to cause bodily harm are all that are legally important here. And, the female looks to be older than 12 years of age.

    Second, he did push her away from him. And, her response was to attack him.

      Blueshot in reply to Mac45. | January 19, 2019 at 2:55 pm

      If you’re not capable of telling the difference between a child and an adult than you have a problem.

      Just looking at the video it’s obvious he should know he’s dealing with kids.

      Hell his business, we now know, is dealing with kids.

      HE HAS TO KNOW HE’S FACING CHILDREN.

      “Size and the ability to cause bodily harm are all that are legally important here.”

      Watching the video it’s quite clear that she had neither size nor ability.

      “And, the female looks to be older than 12 years of age.”

      No she’s doesn’t. When I see the video it’s obvious they are kids.

      “Second, he did push her away from him. And, her response was to attack him.”

      Here’s an idea……

      Push her away again.

      But a left hook to her face? That’s appropriate to you?

      This man is so damn lucky that she’s not dead or a vegetable. How many people are in prison for a single punch that killed someone? They didn’t mean to kill but they still went to prison for it.

      And he punched a kid? Man they’d lock him up forever.

      Part of self-defense is keeping your wits about you and not doing stupid stuff. Like left hooking children into next week.

        alaskabob in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 10:15 pm

        There are 13 years olds in prison for murder… in the USA… cold blooded killers….

        As for any reference to Trayvon…. this site has some extremely knowledgable commenters who are extremely versed in the Trayvon case… moment by moment. You just jumped into the very deep end of the pool.

        Gremlin1974 in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 12:00 am

        “HE HAS TO KNOW HE’S FACING CHILDREN.”

        Why?

        Also, even 11 and 12 year olds can be a threat in numbers. I worked in Pediatric Psych and trust me even small humans can be very dangerous.

        Merlin01 in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 11:06 am

        I just love how people like to insert their perception into others minds. It’s just stupid!

      Mac45 in reply to Mac45. | January 19, 2019 at 6:02 pm

      All of these kids had the size and mass to physically compete with an adult of comparable size. That includes this 11 year old “kid”. Who, by the way, looks, to my practiced eye, to be about 15 yoa. There is NO ONE on the world who would have correctly guessed this girl was 11, unless they knew her personally. So, for the purposes of self defense, their ages are irrelevant, in this case. Now 11 year olds generally do stupid things. And, if this young female is stupid enough to physically attack an adult male who obviously outweighs her, then she probably should not be allowed to roam around without adult, parental supervision. And, of course, this does not take into the consideration all the “kids” who have actually killed and grievously injured others, including adults, in physical attacks.

      I am sick of people whining that violent children should be exempt from the use of physical force to control them, in situations where they direct physical force at another. If you can’t hit a major league fast ball, do not attempt to play in the major leagues. This girl got in the man;s face, in a threatening manner. He pushed back some 15 feet. Right there, any person of normal intelligence would have seriously considered charging him. Not, this little idiot. She charges him and takes a left hook to the jaw. She should not have been allowed to wander around without adult supervision. What makes it look so bad is that she was knocked unconscious.

        Blueshot in reply to Mac45. | January 19, 2019 at 6:38 pm

        “All of these kids had the size and mass to physically compete with an adult of comparable size. That includes this 11 year old “kid”. Who, by the way, looks, to my practiced eye, to be about 15 yoa.”

        False. A couple of them, yes. Certainly not the one who was knocked out. Your eye is no good. Get some glasses.

        “There is NO ONE on the world who would have correctly guessed this girl was 11, unless they knew her personally. So, for the purposes of self defense, their ages are irrelevant, in this case.”

        He doesn’t need to know her age to know she’s a child.

        Children do not look like adults. Eleven year old girls do not look like adult women.

        If she was 17 than maybe you could make a valid claim that she looked like an adult.

        “I am sick of people whining that violent children should be exempt from the use of physical force to control them, in situations where they direct physical force at another.”

        Never said she should be exempt.

        If you could be bothered to read what I wrote you’d see I said it was fine to keep pushing or to even slap her in the face.

        But left hooking her and knocking her out? Because she pushed the guy? I understand he’s in a tense situation but he’s got to be in better control of himself.

        “If you can’t hit a major league fast ball, do not attempt to play in the major leagues. This girl got in the man;s face, in a threatening manner. He pushed back some 15 feet. Right there, any person of normal intelligence would have seriously considered charging him. Not, this little idiot. She charges him and takes a left hook to the jaw.”

        And now he’s going to jail and will have a criminal record for the rest of his life whereas if he knew what level of force to use he would have been fine.

        Note because you and lots of others here don’t seem to understand the point: Him using force isn’t the problem. Him using the wrong type of force is. There was zero need to punch that girl, that child, like that. Push her away. Maybe a good slap to get her attention.

        “She should not have been allowed to wander around without adult supervision.”

        Agreed.

        “What makes it look so bad is that she was knocked unconscious.”

        Agreed.

          Gremlin1974 in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 8:44 pm

          I am a nurse and work with kids and can tell you, especially these days, no you can’t tell what age they are just by looking at them.

          Take for instance the girl in the picture who you claim, without reasonable evidence I might add, must have looked like a kid because she was 11. Well your obvious 11 year old can’t really be seen in the video, but one thing that you can tell is that she is tall enough for the top of her head to be level with the 6’5″ mans chin. Which would make her about 5’4, pretty tall for an 11 y/o. She also appears to be somewhat sexually developed, though it is hard to tell from the video. I also note that she appears to be wearing shorts that would be more appropriate for an older person as well. (Yes I know it is old fashioned but deal with it.)

          There is also the fact that the man has literally seconds to evaluate her, so you seem to be expecting a lot from a man who is in a potentially dangerous situation, is suddenly attacked, which would cause him to naturally become agitated and come under the effects of adrenaline dump.

          Lastly, how do you know what she looks like? Just saying that her age means she must have looked like a child is not a valid argument, you don’t know what she looks like anymore than anyone else, so your assumption is that she must have looked like a child and well that is nothing more than an assumption.

          As far as your assertions that anyone who disagrees with you must be racist shows your own prejudice much more than it does others. I have bad news for you, not everyone cares about race, even if you do.

          Milhouse in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 11:00 pm

          And now he’s going to jail and will have a criminal record for the rest of his life

          How do you know?

          Milhouse in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 11:04 pm

          As far as your assertions that anyone who disagrees with you must be racist shows your own prejudice much more than it does others. I have bad news for you, not everyone cares about race, even if you do.

          Taken in isolation I would completely agree with you, but Blueshot was cued by a genuinely racist comment earlier in the thread. He’s not the one who dragged race into this discussion. But he’s now attributing that racism to other commenters, without sufficient evidence that they were among those who approved or defended the racist comment.

          Gremlin1974 in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 12:13 am

          @Milhouse

          I completely agree with his argument about the comments above.

          “But he’s now attributing that racism to other commenters, without sufficient evidence that they were among those who approved or defended the racist comment.”

          Which is exactly what I have a problem with. After 2 people made racist comments is he began using racism as a bludgeon for anyone who disagreed with him.

          Merlin01 in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 11:13 am

          This is just ridiculous dribble. You can surely knock someone out with a slap, it’s actually a top 5 technique to disable attacks…every argument you make is just silly!

          Milhouse in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 2:07 pm

          I wrote:

          Blueshot was cued by a genuinely racist comment earlier in the thread.

          So as not to confuse people reading this thread for the first time, I point out that the moderators have deleted the racist comment and all followups, both those defending and condemning it. It was bad, and it got 14 up-votes, so there are several racists lurking here. But it’s not fair to blame everyone here for it; most people here are not like that at all, and entitled to a presumption that they’re commenting in good faith.

    Morning Sunshine in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 2:56 pm

    Looking at the mob around her, I would guess the ages range from 12-17. If he is being disoriented with all the yelling and then a push, he may not have taken the time to assess which mob-participant is actually attacking him.

      Gremlin1974 in reply to Morning Sunshine. | January 19, 2019 at 8:48 pm

      There is also the fact that he is trying to keep track of multiple threats and is probably experiencing the visual changes that come with adrenaline dump.

    guyjones in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 6:14 pm

    Size, ordinarily, might be an issue. But, kids in cities are carrying knives and other close-quarter weapons, de rigeur — read the crime pages of any major-city newspaper.

    Your contention that a victim — who has already been assaulted by a member of a mob — is not allowed to defend himself, against further (and, potentially lethal, force), is utterly absurd.

What difference does it make if the man is “white” or “large”? This sounds like something CNN would write to bias the jury.

Blueshift: Bulls&@t he’ll have trouble.

1st). There was a pack of potential attackers. And unless they are literally 5 years old they are an actual danger. There was a couple here in Madison that got beaten pretty badly by such a mob recently.
2nd). How was he supposed to know how old they were?
3rd). Was he with his family, including his children? If so then these animals are lucky he didn’t keep beating her.

    Blueshot in reply to Vancomycin. | January 19, 2019 at 2:27 pm

    “1st). There was a pack of potential attackers. And unless they are literally 5 years old they are an actual danger. There was a couple here in Madison that got beaten pretty badly by such a mob recently.”

    Never said he could defend himself. Only that instead of left hooking her and knocking her unconscious he could have taken another route to a successful self-defense.

    “2nd). How was he supposed to know how old they were?”

    He knows he’s dealing with children. Children look like children. An eleven year old girl is not going to look like a 20 year old girl. If you say it’s possible you’re a liar or a fool. Maybe both.

    “3rd). Was he with his family, including his children? If so then these animals are lucky he didn’t keep beating her.”

    Why? So he could go to prison for decades or possibly the rest of his life (if she dies) because she pushed him?

    You’re an idiot with obvious emotional issues.

      Blueshot in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 2:40 pm

      “Never said he could defend himself.”

      That should read as “Never said he couldn’t defend himself.”

      Gremlin1974 in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 8:56 pm

      You are probably one of those people who would argue that because someone who fired multiple shots in self defense used excessive force because he fired more than one shot.

      “He knows he’s dealing with children.”

      How? No, regardless of your continued claims “looks” do not always tell the story.

      “Children look like children. An eleven year old girl is not going to look like a 20 year old girl.”

      Not true, regardless of how much you keep typing it.

      “If you say it’s possible you’re a liar or a fool. Maybe both.”

      And this is the proof that you know your argument is moronic. Otherwise it would stand on its own and not required typical leftist name calling.

        Blueshot in reply to Gremlin1974. | January 20, 2019 at 12:59 am

        “You are probably one of those people who would argue that because someone who fired multiple shots in self defense used excessive force because he fired more than one shot.”

        No I’m not one of those people.

        If you have to shoot than shoot until the threat stops. If that is one bullet or a million it doesn’t matter.

I don’t condone hitting people; however, when attacked defending yourself is acceptable. I cannot make everything out here to tell if it was justified. But women cannot have it both ways. If they are equal and hit someone, male or female, then they are hit back it is justified. The race and gender should be completely removed from the discussion and it should be subject A and B. If you don’t want to be hit, don’t hit someone first.

He’s 50 years old. At that age a punch to the head by a teenager, much less a dozen teenagers, can lead to a brain bleed and permanent brain damage or death. The guilty party is the attacker, not the defender. Charges were filed against the wrong person.

    Blueshot in reply to beagleEar. | January 19, 2019 at 2:45 pm

    She wasn’t a teenager. She was a child. Eleven years old.

    He knew he was dealing with children.

    And she wasn’t punching him.

    WATCH THE VIDEO.

      healthguyfsu in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 3:31 pm

      Watched that video…she wasn’t walking over there to shake his hand.

      You’re wrong and you keep losing.

        Blueshot in reply to healthguyfsu. | January 19, 2019 at 3:37 pm

        Wow. Look at you scared of a little girl because she pushed you.

        How pathetic on your part.

          RedEchos in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 4:26 pm

          By herself? All alone? No.

          But she wasn’t by herself, all alone, was she?

          And if she’d gouged his eye, even by accident, and he doubled over in pain? The other juves would have been on him like a pack of wild dogs taking down an cape buffalo. With his wife and child feet away. What happens to them?

          Notice his child isn’t acting like them. They’re about to go “Lord of the Flies” and you’re concerned that the girl was 11.

          What her age does for her right now is gets her record sealed so it doesn’t get used against her when she does this again in 7 years.

          5 4 fighting in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 8:02 am

          Before the internet was invented there was no medium for widespread theatrical self affirming expression’s of moral superiority. Stick to facts.

        MajorWood in reply to healthguyfsu. | January 20, 2019 at 6:06 pm

        I think Blueshot took one to the head when he/she/it was 11 and the effect still hasn’t quite worn off.

        Of course, he/she/it will slink back into internet anonymity when subsequent facts emerge that the group of chillun conspired to harass the woman/child and the video was deliberately made to document their activities to show off to friends. As they said on the Simpsons long before these little perps were even born, “videotaping our crime spree was the smartest thing that we ever did.”

He did not strike an individual, but rather a mob… of individuals, that were acting as a force multiplier to intimidate and harass an individual. There was a similar case in Berkley, where a woman in a mob attacked a much larger, fitter man by targeting his throat, hoping to disable him. Fortunately, her attack was diverted, and the mob did not progress with its original intent.

The man should be on his knees praising the hood rat who brought the camera to the confrontation, because without it, he would be going to jail for many years with headlines of “Fifty year old man assaults pre-teen!” Because that’s exactly what the swarm would have told the cops when they showed up. “We wern’t doin’ nuttin until this big guy comes up all talking (censored) and walloped poor Jennifer over there for no reason at all!”

As it is, he is in dire danger of some overamped prosecutor deciding to make his life hell in return for minority support during an election.

    c0cac0la in reply to georgfelis. | January 19, 2019 at 2:23 pm

    The video may keep him out of jail, but his reputation and finances will likely be destroyed especially if the national media pick this up.

My toxic masculinity quivers with delight.

In a screaming mob I challenge you to guess ages rapidly especially after you’ve been assaulted. He was standing did not step into the punch and indeed could not have landed a punch unless she was trying to assault him again. She literally knocked herself out stepping into the defensive response.

“Chimp out” is a phrase that only racists use.

So you and, as of this post, the four people who agreed with you are all showing your true colors.

Congrats. Racist.

    JusticeDelivered in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 3:30 pm

    That group were the racists, the problem is that rather large numbers of blacks feel that bald faced black racism is justified, and that is just the tip of an iceberg of bad conduct. From what I have seen, blacks are the most overt racists in America.

      “That group were the racists, the problem is that rather large numbers of blacks feel that bald faced black racism is justified, and that is just the tip of an iceberg of bad conduct. From what I have seen, blacks are the most overt racists in America.”

      Let’s assume for sake of argument that you’re right.

      That fact excuses racism from you and others?

      There are blacks in America who are racists. Want to see some? Go to The Root. That blog is filled with them.

      But their bad behavior is not a green light for you and others to behave like them.

      You got to be better than that.

    Milhouse in reply to Blueshot. | January 19, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    That is completely correct. And no amount of black racism can justify it. As of now there are 14 readers who approve of jack burns’s racist comment, which means they are racists too. And 17 who downvoted Blueshot’s obviously valid objection. Plus 16 who seem to approve of JusticeDelivered’s evil and bizarre argument that the existence of black racism justifies anti-black racism. This is disgusting.

I have a simple rule of thumb.

Whenever the media shows ANY clip of somebody doing something allegedly terrible, and the clip is only a few seconds long, they are:

1) Lying about what happened
2) Trying to conceal the full incident which is much more favorable to the side they’re trying to smear

In this case, LITERALLY EVERY ‘news’ organization publishing a story on this conveniently omitted almost all footage of the mob, and cut out them previously shoving him.

    murkyv in reply to Olinser. | January 20, 2019 at 4:54 pm

    And we had yet another example of just that only yesterday, with the pile-on of a group of Catholic lads, some in MAGA hats, “attacking” a native American Vietnam Vet activist at the March For Life

    The Twits at Twitter and those in the media are trying to Dox this kid, and the Diocese condemned them and might punish them

    Today, however, the full video came out, and the reality is quite the opposite of what a short, highly edited video was showing

    The NA is an unhinged, activist of the Occupy persuasion. He was the one who instigated things and full video shows that

SHOW ME THE LAW that says me or my loved ones MUST STAND THERE and suffer an assault without reacting to defend myself/my loved ones–in ANY jurisdiction in this country

this man was surrounded–have been in that situation myself a few times(albeit several of the participants were armed)–things can escalate rapidly and if you fail to act correctly you can easily end up severely injured or dead

he responded correctly–considering his size and skill would be willing to bet that, had he wanted to, he could have severely injured/dispatched his attacker–he did neither–one punch

good on him

    Blueshot in reply to texansamurai. | January 19, 2019 at 3:35 pm

    And how many one punch things have landed people in prison?

    No one is saying he can’t defend himself or his family. What is being said is the type of defense he used was excessive.

    #1 He knew he was facing kids. Anyone who tries to claim he didn’t know is lying to try and justify his actions.

    #2 She pushed him. It wasn’t even a hard push because he’s that much bigger than her.

    #3 He pushed her away. That was the right action on his part. He should have kept doing that.

    Where he went wrong was putting a left hook into the side of her face and knocking her into next week.

    He wasn’t facing adults. He wasn’t facing armed adults.

    He lost his self-control and knocked out an eleven year-old girl.

    No matter how you try to spin it he’s in the wrong.

      I’ve heard of the “soft skull defense” as being a thing for centuries, where one punch in a tavern killed someone. One punch has landed plenty of people in prison. That’s why people need to be responsible for where their fists – or bullets – go flying.

        Milhouse in reply to JBourque. | January 19, 2019 at 11:14 pm

        “Soft skull” is a thing only when you are the attacker, not when you are the defender. When you choose to attack someone you take your victim as you find him; if he turns out to have an eggshell skull and suffers injuries you didn’t anticipate, tough luck. But when, as here, you are the defender, it’s not your problem if your attacker has an eggshell skull; he should have thought of that before attacking you.

Well I have no comment as to the incident being lawful or not, but it does illustrate the two things I have taught my daughters. Never offer physical violence to a man and this is why you will need a gun if a man is offering physical violence toward you.

Not that this was being offered here, just that it illustrates the raw strength of men vs women. The only time a woman can successfully bitch-slap a man is when he lets her.

… “disparity of size and likely also strength between the man and the woman was sufficient to make his thrown punch disproportionate and excessive relative to the woman’s apparently intended punch”…

but, but, i thought it was culturally inappropriate to compare strength & size…? can’t have it both ways…..

with regards the age: the ronald reagan rule applies! just ask Dukakis!

It was self-defense. The mob of Obama’s children were threatening.

Yes yes, I’m an idiot with emotional issues. Someone threatens my children and they’d better be prepared for a beat down, at a minimum. And if you don’t think the only thing keeping that howling mob of animals from his wife and kid was him standing his ground then YOUR a willfully ignorant jackass who has no understanding if violence. You actually keep demonstrating that you’ve never been in a simple fistfight much less something more serious, so why don’t you take your beta ass somewhere so that your wife and her boyfriend can spend some quality time

What the main problem is now is a lack of facts. All we basically have is a video and not a very good video at that.

I will be interested to hear what the man’s defense is and what are the claims of the other witnesses.

Though I think the video is really in his favor. She laid hands on him first, just because she didn’t push him with maximum force it is obvious that she wasn’t just trying to get his attention. Also, it was forceful enough that it did cause him to rock forward.

Second, she advanced on him in a aggressive manner both times, he pretty much stayed in the same spot from the beginning of the confrontation to the end of the confrontation.

She came at him with her hand in a position that would make any reasonable person believe she was about to attack.

He used a minimal force response the first time by pushing her backwards. (Also it makes her kind of a dumbass since his simple push basically flung her back what appears to be almost 10 feet.)

She chose to re-engage after being pushed backwards.

He used a single punch, he did not attempt to press his attack, nor did he even throw a combination.

But like I said, this is all we know and need to wait for more facts.

alaskabob: “There are 13 years olds in prison for murder… in the USA… cold blooded killers….”

And all of them used a weapon of some type.

Did this girl, an eleven year old, have a weapon?

alsakabob: “As for any reference to Trayvon…. this site has some extremely knowledgable commenters who are extremely versed in the Trayvon case… moment by moment. You just jumped into the very deep end of the pool.”

I am extremely knowledgeable about the Trayvon case. Zimmerman wasn’t guilty. He should have never been put on trial. There was no evidence to support charging him and he was only charged because the case became racially charged in the public due to his family and media. Especially at the beginning when they lied about Trayvon Martin and released a picture of him as a child.

So I’m not worried about any deep pool on this site.

    Blueshot in reply to Blueshot. | January 20, 2019 at 1:04 am

    Dammit, this place needs an edit function. Come on it’s 2019!!

    “There is no evidence to support charging him and he was only charged because the case became racially charged in the public due to the Martin family and media outlets.”

      Blueshot…..

      You can use the Preview button before you post…That’s the closest thing we have to an edit function…

      I’m curious is that Blue-shot or Blues-hot…?

When one is in the jungle. (any where these days but especially a mall) jungle rules apply. The king of the jungle did not become king by being meek or hesitate. Animals respect power.(Albany Ga 1992 the most racist place I have ever been.)

Nobody seems to be asking the question what gives the group a “right” to surround and scare and harass a woman? (who is not his wife BTW, he just stepped up to stop the attack.)

What “right” do black people have in today’s world to attack white people randomly? We see it more and more. That video was planned to be released as a successful attack on white people by a black mob. Then the girl, who is obviously brain damaged prior to the punch, attacked a man 150lbs bigger and got whacked for it.

You can thank eight years of Obama and the whole BLM movement for these random terrorist attacks by the black mobs. Over at Gateway, another example happened.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/01/horrifying-rapper-and-instagram-user-cash-bently-threatens-and-harasses-young-teens-in-maga-hats-at-mcdonalds-video/

Had another adult stepped up and smacked that rapper in the mouth, we’d be seeing another moment like this.

Sadly, the white, 51yr old, piano teacher with a wife and two kids is ruined. All because he didn’t keep his head down, walk past the harassment and let the black do what they want.

In truth, in 2019 we have 13 percent of the population (blacks), 3 percent of the population (gays) and .3 percent (trans) controlling the society.

If my daughter had done what that black girl had done and got whacked for it, she’d come home and find another pis**ed off white guy looking to give her another smack, in order to knock the dumba** animal out of her.

Just a little tongue and cheek!

Why are the facts that they are women and black even part if the discussion? I thought we were all the same…

I have a question for all the “but she’s 11” posters…

Did anyone, when watching the video the first time, immediately know that the girl was eleven or did you think, looks like an attacker?

I want to take a moment and address the argument that this guy should have used an open hand slap vs punching the girl.

There seems to be the impression that a slap would have been less damaging than a punch and that is simply false.

Here is an excellent video, while not scientific it does demonstrate the differences in the 2 blows as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkNRU8N2jcU

Basically what it comes down to in this situation is that there would probably have been little difference in the effect of the slap vs the punch and they would have both knocked her to the ground. Add Adrenalin to the equation and either way the outcome would have been similar.

Also I have been participating in martial arts for 33 years and I can tell you that the effect of having an open hand make contact with the side of your head, especially if it hits the ear, can ring your bell much harder than any hook I have ever taken. In fact in teaching self defense over the years I recommend open handed strikes vs punches to the face and sides of the head because of the effect that they have.

watching the video again, cannot see an instance where the man acted improperly OR used excessive force–rather, his reactions were measured and defensive in nature–he made no effort to clean house on the lot of them, no aggressive move toward them, and stopped the use of force when the loudmouth was put out of action–contrary to the opinion of others here, believe he sensed(correctly)that he and other innocents were in immediate danger from this mob, acted to defend himself and others, showed restraint and good situational awareness when taking action to neutralize the threat and prevented injury to himself and at least a couple of other innocent people in the doing

well done–and for those who view his actions as excessive use of force would ask if they have ever been in that or a similar situation–age of the perpetrators is irrelevant–as in any engagement on this earth, if it goes on long enough, the numbers will prevail

If this video doesn’t make you feel good all over, you have a heart of stone.

It lightens my spirit and gives me a spring in my step.

The girl and her mongrel friends were looking for trouble and she found it.

I would like to see the overall context of the situation.

The other lady and child may have been his wife and daughter.

In any event, it’s wrong to surround someone, get in his face and shout at him.

What is it with these people?

I hope that it serves as a learning experience to each of them – not all white people are nice.

So they removed my comment despite’s use of a term firmly embedded in the vernacular and had quotation marks around it. Tell me again how you hate censorship and love the First Amendment. Apologies in advance if the mistake is mine.

Beats me how old she was … but she was certainly old enough to carry and use a weapon … and certainly old enough to engage in aggressive behavior. She got physical with the guy and got what she asked for.

How long until the Mall bans white men over 50 in order to curb the violence.

A mob of hyenas surrounded a lion and his cubs.

Lion wins.

Then gets indicted.

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