The framework of a proposal unveiled by the White House provides for a pathway to citizenship for 1.8 million so-called Dreamers, 25 billion for border security and The Wall, and an end of extended-family chain migration (though immediate family chain migration still permitted).
You can read the full details here.
The proposal had met strong criticism from many Trump supporters because the pathway to citizenship is amnesty, but the reaction from the open-borders left has been many times more vicious, as covered in my post Immigration activists furious over Trump amnesty offer: “a legislative burning cross”.
Do you support the framework?
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Democrats have already denied it, so why would anyone support it now?
Breaking….
1/26/18 – Criminal Conspiracy Against President Trump
“Rep. Matt Gaetz: I Believe There Has Been a Criminal Conspiracy to Rid of Trump”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxI8u5GCKZo
No.
But methinks he put it forward knowing Dems would reject it. In the end, it looks like Obama’s unconstitutional EO will simple be allowed to expire. And current immigration law will be enforced with greater vigor.
Could that be part of Trump’s “art of the deal” … give them a deal you know they will refuse? Might that also be the strategy with his willingness to negotiate NAFTA? At any rate, it puts Trump in the driver’s seat, but now the Republicans need to step up to the plate.
As far as “Dreamers” are concerned, I understand and acknowledge that some of them did not come here on their own, that they’ve grown up here (re: distasteful as it sounds, it may be the only home some of them remember), and it’s wholly unreasonable to assume that ALL dreamers are criminals. Like as not, most non-citizens have a path to citizenship, especially if they’re not criminals and if they come from countries from which we allow immigrants. As such, I disagree with fast-tracking anybody’s citizenship based on some guessed-at original arrival date but flagging it to acknowledge their arrival and starting the process ON A CASE-BY-CASE basis. Their parents, however, who came illegally and in knowing contravention of the laws governing legal immigration, are a different story. If they arrived as young children AND have no criminal record AND have a place to stay, I would be willing to consider immigration options. Their parents, however, must return ON THEIR OWN (re: willingly self deport) to their country of birth, then allow them to apply ONLY if they committed no other criminal act while here, and then they queue up and wait their turn.
End birthright citizenship: your parents can’t give you something they don’t already don’t have.
Round up and prosecute ALL criminal illegal aliens; you can’t deport them ’cause they’ll just come back, again and again and again and …
Make English the national language, not Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and the dozens of others that are “required” to be printed on government documents. Can’t speak English? You can’t proceed until you can understand English.
Oh, and about that all-so-necessary citizenship course and test: let somebody of the caliber of Kris Anne Hall manage and administer it. As a constitutional lawyer, scholar and educator, such a person would teach the Constitution as our Founding Fathers intended it to be understood, not the misconstrued and sodomized version that’s taught today in most government-run, public indoctrination camps, including those for citizenship.
Technically, birthright citizenship should not exist. In our Constitution, it is stated that any child born here to parents with allegiance to another country, that child is a citizen of that country. Currently, any foreign ambassador, diplomat, etc, who gives birth here, that child is of that country and is not allowed citizenship here. Why people can fly here to give birth and that baby has citizenship, or someone jumps our border, and their baby has citizenship, I’ll never understand.
Not allegiance, but “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/amendments-11-27
You are lying. The US constitution doesn’t and can’t say who is a citizen of any other country. How could it? Only that country’s laws can say whether such a child is a citizen of that country.
More fundamentally, you lie because our constitution doesn’t recognize the whole concept of inheritance of citizenship from parents. As far as our constitution is concerned the child of two US citizens, born abroad, is not a US citizen. Such children born today are US citizens only because Congress one day decided to make it so; tomorrow it could change its mind and any child born abroad to US citizens after that date would not be a US citizen. Whereas a child born in the US is a US citizen, not by any grant or whim of Congress, but inherently, of his or her own right, and Congress can’t ever take that away.
No, they don’t. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Um, you are probably a birthright citizen. Almost all of us are. How do you think you got to be a citizen? Your parents didn’t “give” it to you; the US constitution knows of no such notion as parents “giving” citizenship to their children. That concept is alien to the US way of thinking. The US, unlike many European countries, has always thought of citizenship as something that comes naturally from being born somewhere, and that principle was eventually written into the constitution.
Congress has chosen out of its good will to naturalize children of US citizens born abroad; it didn’t have to do so, and it can change its mind any time it likes, because they’re not inherently citizens.
Small problem: There are about millions of natural-born US citizens, who are just as American as you, whose native language is Spanish. I’m talking mostly about Puerto Ricans, but also about some of the descendants of the Mexicans of the US Southwest who became US citizens under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. While most of their current descendants speak English, many don’t, and yet they’re just as American as you, if not more so.
No problem except in your mind. Require them to learn English.
On what basis. What gives Congress the right to impose such an obligation on them? They are just as American as any other citizen, and their native language is not English; what could possibly justify requiring them to learn it? You are simply refusing to face the fact that Puerto Rico is America, every bit as much as New England or Texas are (leaving aside the open legal question of whether its incorporation is de jure or merely de facto).
I can’t bring up the poll so I’ll answer here.
Personally, I am not in favor of normalizing ANY person, or group of people, in this country illegally. And, there is no but to that. I also think it would be a mistake to actually go through with the WH framework for dreamer normalization.
It was done big time in 1986, all with the usual Democrat lies that this would be a one time thing, that everyone would get their act together, blah, blah, Ginger, blah.
Lets not do it again.
We simply have to stop dealing with Democrats. And for enough good Americans to stop voting for them.
You should add in the summary that the path to citizenship is delayed 10-12 years. I think that’s an important caveat whether someone would support it or not.
Giving someone citizenship isn’t like offering them a free ride to McD’s for a hamburger. If they really are interested in being a citizen of the United States a few years isn’t going to make any difference.
That’s what’s happening with the ‘Dreamers’. They aren’t interested in citizenship to call America their home – they’re seeking a pathway to bathe in the benefits of America, by hook or by crook.
Not so sure. What I mean is if a typical pathway to citizenship takes about 10-12 years…then putting Dreamers in that queue isn’t wrong. They’re just put in the waiting line with everyone else and used as leverage to get the immigration fixes we need.
It’s a far different story than outright amnesty.
Once someone is here legally, the typical time it takes to get citizenship is much shorter than this. Normally, once you’re a legal resident of the US, you can apply for naturalization after five years, and the application process can take as little as a few months.
Well, because they didn’t do it legally, I’m fine with them waiting longer. Just nothing expedited.
If they really are interested in being a citizen of the United States a few years isn’t going to make any difference.
But it will make a yuge difference to the D’rats.
What the illegals think of this proposal is not really a factor.
Since only the far left and the welfare class supports the Dems, the only way they can win is to import more welfare class.
So wrong.
First, a few years can and usually do make a difference. But that’s not the point. You HAVE TO wait at least 5 years as legal resident before you can apply for citizenship. From then, the application process can take some time.
Your other point:
How many of those Dreamers have you met personally?
or
What is the size of your polling sample?
How can you generalize like that?
The one and only reason why we are talking about this, the one and only reason why this is an issue at all, is because these are people who came as children, by no fault of their own. They have already assimilated, and many, many of them don’t know any other ‘home’. They grew up here and have more in common with America’s culture than with their parents countries.
I am not saying that this is the case for ALL of them, but it is the case for many of them. If not, then the person would be committing fraud. That’s why it is so important that each case gets decided INDIVIDUALLY by an immigration court, as currently required by law.
And before you ask, I have met quite a few of them. I have listened to their side, and I have explained to them why they really have no right to stay, and why they should be very grateful if ever given a chance to stay. I have gotten into ugly arguments because of it too, and called horrible names, but I have also gotten the “Ok, maybe you’re right, but what can we do?” kind of response.
Believe it or not, not all these people are ignorant farm workers.
Also before you start bashing me:
I love this country.
I oppose amnesty.
I am for the wall.
I am for strict border security.
I am against the visa lottery.
I am against uncontrolled chain migration.
I am for e-Verify.
I am against birthright citizenship.
I am for deportation of those who don’t respect the law.
I am not for granting citizenship to dreamers.
Talk to Joshua Wilkerson about it. Wait, I’m sorry, you can’t. He was tortured to death by a DACA-eligible teenager he went to school with. Offered the DACA-e kid a ride home. The kid tortured him to death.
In court, he kept repeatedly testifying, “…in my country, in my country, in my country.”
Sounds like that DACA kid wouldn’t be eligible for citizenship under the proposal. Lacking good moral standing and all.
I hope you are not using the actions of 1 criminal, (or 2, or 5 or whatever) to judge and condemn, to justify punishment against an entire group of 2 million people.
Are you?
I also hope that you did not read my entire comment, which is preferable to the idea of you ignoring what I said, or to the idea that you did not comprehend what I said.
Re: Exihilo (sp?)
I did read your comment. All of it.
As I understand the proposal, you ignore the part where chain migration effectively isn’t ended for a couple of decades.
Also, why should ALL Americans be punished – which is what it is – for what illegal aliens and politicians have done?
Americans such as myself pay property taxes ad nauseum for schools. I am forced to pay them or they take my property away. If I remain on my property they bring men with guns to remove me and take it. Why am I punished because illegal aliens walked across a border, popped into a hospital or popped their kids into the local school, and used a govt. facility I have to pay for?
Why are hospitals in Georgia closing because illegal aliens are straining them beyond their capacity?
So yes, they should all suffer. They have made all Americans suffer to one extent or another, whether the Americans are cognizant of it or not. Just because the media doesn’t report the thefts, doesn’t mean the thefts didn’t happen.
Plyler v. Doe was an abomination and those justices should have been impeached forthwith for usurping the rights of Americans to self-determination. (Told Texas it couldn’t charge illegal aliens tuition for attending govt. schools. 1982)
Re: Exialdo
Also, I note, that Americans have REPEATEDLY voted for people to end the illegal alien nightmare. We have melted congress’s telephones, such as during Bush’s attempt in 2006, to get an amnesty.
We have made it clear REPEATEDLY we want this stopped and they have ignored, ignored, ignored us in the most contemptuously arrogant fashion.
We have been relegated to mere serfs in this “free” country.
No, I’m disinterested in being punished further by spineless hacks in Washington or anywhere else, that I have learned I have almost ZERO effect upon, no matter what I do.
And for Trump to meet with the families of the dead, and then to offer this? My God, their hearts must be eviscerated. I hope it’s a mere stratagem, but to drag those poor families through this, it’s utterly heartless, which is exactly what I expect from foreigners with zero empathy with Americans.
Re: Close The Fed
I understand how you feel, and I see why you rant like that, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s just that: a rant based on feelings, not on facts and definitely not the way to solve anything.
For example, you said:
I beg to differ, and REALITY is there to back me up. Americans voted to elect Obama. Two Times!!!
And thank God for the electoral college or Americans would have elected Hillary Clinton.
Can you honestly say that Americans have been voting to “end the illegal alien nightmare?
Pluh-ease!!
Also, you keep ignoring the FACT that Trump is NOT proposing an amnesty for all those illegal aliens that are punishing you. Trump is proposing a COMPROMISE with all those other Americans that don’t mind about the illegal aliens and are willing to look the other way. This compromise would provide the means to secure the border and to at least start to control who enters the country.
Now let me tell you something about those other fellow Americans that I mentioned above: there is enough of them to get pro-illegal-alien politicians in Congress and the White House. They did it before and they can do it again. If such thing happens, then you will lose.
So the choice is there: a small compromise now, or the risk of losing for good.
Also, here is a crime that happened in my neighborhood this week. By a “hispanic.” Why do I have to put up with this again?
https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/woman-assaulted-while-holding-son-park-woodstock
Feeling and Facts seldom find themselves in peaceful harmony, especially in today’s social matrix. The main problem with your viewpoint is that the fruit of illegal acts always carries with it a bitter aftertaste or even outright poison.
Yes, those who came as children were not morally accountable, rather their parents are accountable for their being here illegally. Perhaps the courts will give mercy and perhaps not, regardless if they are permitted to stay it is completely mercy and by no means of their own endeavors. We are a nation that is supposed to be governed by LAWS, not according to special circumstances. One law for one class of people, another law for a special class of people…
Furthermore, there is oxygen on the other side of this Earth just as there is oxygen in Denver, NYC or LA. There are opportunities everywhere, not just in America. One thing that few places lack though is ‘a free ride’. No free rides for anyone, performance counts – not for everything, but it does count.
Actually, in my opinion, that is what is the biggest problem in America today – the fracturing of the meme that America is a nation run strictly by laws. This is how you get people like Obama and the Clintons.
You are 100% correct there, IMO.
We are in this mess because for a long time the U.S. government has failed to enforce the law when it comes to immigration. That pretty much sums it up.
They can go home and apply from there. No amnesty, build the wall.
Sure, as long as they pay their taxes, are forbidden from partaking of any Welfare program and are forbidden from voting.
…as if the State governments will willingly respect and honor federal laws. This scenario would never happen in America, eh? What did the governor of Virginia do the last presidential election, go into the prisons and sign up new voters to vote for Hillary. Or California, another state leadership full of respect for the federal govt.
My thoughts are that sooner or later, Americans are going to realize that the Democrats have no interest in supporting American laws or procedures. It’s either wake up to reality or die as a nation, following the examples set by Germany and Sweden.
Huge suppositions, all!
Remember Reagan. No deal. No amnesty. Build the wall.
I am unable to see the poll, but I read over the conditions and support it. I believe it to be a reasonable compromise. Irreverant, but it’s The Onion: https://www.theonion.com/ice-agents-hurl-pregnant-immigrant-over-mexican-border-1822307567
If only the onion were real.
According to the poll I am in the minority but I favor the proposal. Getting the Wall (start building immediately), ending chain migration, and ending visa lottery are almost enough to make me feel positive about the deal. The remaining issue, in my mind, is mandatory e-verify combined with aggressive criminal prosecution of companies who do not use e-verify as well as leveraging IRS data to identify illegal aliens.
I like the 10 year horizon but we all know that the next leftist administration will ignore any and all crimes in order to naturalize another Democrat voter. Which would mean aggressively deporting this subset of illegals quickly if they commit a crime.
Ditto.
On a slightly unrelated matter, I see where BET is going to have Maxine Waters give a response to the Trump SOTU address.
Please, please, please let the DNC decide that having her give the nationally televised response would be a good idea!!!!
I would only watch Maxipad if I knew in ADVANCE she would have a stroke while on stage and do the ‘stiff chicken’ on the floor.
Hillary came close when they threw her into the black van like a sack of taters, but then they brought her back to life. sigh…
So you’re saying you’re cool with Reagan’s massive boner? You expect a repeat of the 1986 amnesty but que sera sera. No deal. No amnesty. Build the wall.
NO! No amnasty program has EVER work anywhere as intended.
As I wrote this morning, Mssr. Arte d’Deal threw open the Overton Window on amnesty, and he won’t and can’t claw it back.
This is who he IS.
Remind me – how did our little bet turn out?
You’re counting unhatched chickens.
Ragspierre | January 26, 2018 at 9:39 pm
I’ll disagree. This is Progressive 101.
They will let some of their extreme fringe make a lot of noise, and even join in some of it themselves (see Pelosi, Nanny today), which will give the more center-left a LOT of cover to seem some reasonable facsimile of sane while pushing for more from T-rump.
If I’m right, you’ll start seeing some negotiation moves next week after a long weekend of craziness and spittle.
Come on, you can admit it – you said that Schumer would jump all over that offer and accept it as quick as he could – I said he would reject it out of hand, because he had to.
Schumer rejected it out of hand. You can’t deny that. It’s done, exactly as I predicted, and completely contrary to what you predicted.
“Come on, you can admit it – you said that Schumer would jump all over that offer and accept it as quick as he could…”
Please link to that.
Let me add, the issue is that, like almost all current lawyers and negotiators, you’re approaching this from the framework which was laid out by the author of “Getting to Yes”. And of course I agree that is the best possible framework for dealing with rational people acting in good faith.
The problem is that the “Getting to Yes” framework fails if one is dealing with irrational, malicious people who are operating in bad faith. Rational people in private transactions simply walk away from these people and refuse to deal with them – but in the political world, that is not a choice, especially when an entire party (the Democrats) has now become irrational, malicious, and dedicated to the destruction of our society as it is currently constituted.
Getting to Yes is not the only negotiating paradigm out there. There are older methods – but they as a rule are much more cynical and heavy handed. The goal in these older methods is to humiliate and destroy your opponent by tricking him and leading him into traps you set, not to work out any agreement with him.
It was said that War is Politics by other means, and the converse is true – Politics is War by other means, necessitated when the application of pure force is not a viable option.
This is the paradigm Trump is following. And because the Dems as a party are now irredeemably vicious, malicious, and dedicated to destruction, they will walk heedlessly into any trap he sets.
Let’s watch and see, shall we?
The Palestinian post – #ResistJoooJerusalem financial results should provide an example: Has their bargaining position gotten better?
DJT once again knows his opponents better than they know themselves. He threw the cat among the canaries and is ROTFL.
If the Pubbies had a smart bone in their body, they would push the POTUS narrative.
ROTFL
😉
CAT says: “Yum yum. Me can have FaT Cannaries. But they taste old and stringy.”
I support the framework in the sense that it does an excellent job of exposing the Democrats to be lying sack of shit partisans that have no intention of negotiating ANYTHING.
This!
I’m opposed. OTOH, we are not going to get a perfect deal so should not let perfect be the enemy of good. The question then becomes what deal do we actually get, and if none, will Trump aggressively enforce the law?
The current
chamber of commercerepublican led senate will never give us E-verify, that is a pipe dream.I also believe Trump knew this deal would get shot down by the commie party, and it has. I think it to be nothing more than politics.
Me? Deport the worst first. No amnesty. E-verify when we can get it. Build the damn wall.
We also need to end “birthright citizenship!” As I recall, we are one of the few countries that still allow that stupid category of citizenship.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. First of all, almost everyone in the world got whatever citizenship they have by birthright. That’s the primary way citizenship is obtained, in every country, and has been for as long as the concept of citizenship has existed. The only big question is where birthright citizenship comes from: the place or the parents? The USA, like almost all countries of North and South America, says it comes from the place, while most of Europe now says it comes from the parents.
Anyone born in the US should have the citizenship of the parents.
Why? Because some other countries do that? That has never had any place in US law, or in the common law where our roots are. Or are you one of those internationalists who think US courts should take their cues from other countries’ laws on things like the eighth amendment? It would make sense if you were one of those people. But I’m betting you’re not; why not?
Remember Reagan’s massive failure. Remember the undying shame to his name. Remember the untold costs to our nation in sovereignty, treasure, and lives.
No deal. No amnesty. Build the wall.
For an end to chain migration and the visa lottery, I would consider it. But it should have been just the 800,000 registered.
I can’t tell if he is really ready to make a deal as proposed or he put it out there to make Dems look bad when they don’t agree and fail to deliver …
We will see. Pass the popcorn.
Re: PrincetonAl
“Pass the popcorn”?! Really?!
The country is dying, and so many talk as though it’s entertainment. What will happen as a result of the country dying? How many good people of our culture will die at the hands of these differently-cultured foreigners? Look at the Remembrance Project and see the families grieving over their dead.
Americans have been put in strait jackets and the buckles are tightened and tightened against us, while foreigners live here with nary a care, and dip into our pockets constantly. How many more American families have to struggle for this? How many more Americans won’t have the families they want because of this.
This is no game, but tragedy writ large.
I don’t think the country is dying.
Yes, there are people causing a lot of damage, but DACA recipients are not the big problem. We should worry more about:
– Corrupt politicians and entrenched gubmint bureaucrats (the swamp)
– Dishonest, corrupt and unethical media (the fake news)
– Deranged, leftard academia (the higher-ed bubble)
– Union-controlled indoctrination centers (the K-8 school system)
– The rest of the illegal immigrants who don’t qualify and who did and do intentionally break the law(s).
I’m not convinced that the country is dying yet, I still hold out hope things can be saved for another century or so. (everything dies eventually)
I comfort myself with the thought that if this country ever does die, then the New Republic of Texas will be reborn. Bigger and Better than the original. (Ok, Ark, and La would be in on it at a minimum) We got our own energy production, our own food production, and our own manufacturing. And we already got more weapons than most European countries do.
Re: Exiliado and Tom Servo:
True, Tom, everything dies eventually. And to Exiliado, you cover many problems and it’s certainly not possible to make an exhaustive list, but what troubles me the most, is that under our current cultural/legal practices, we are setting up Americans to suffer greatly during the entropy.
Americans are constantly nagged to hate themselves, and that the foreigners are “magic aliens.” There’s nothing magical about them, except that the media and government has given them carte blanche to viciously criticize Americans endlessly. Since we seem doomed to continuously import these anti-Americans given carte blanche to hate us, then our children and our children’s children will have it MUCH MUCH WORSE than we do.
They’ll be numerically a small proportion of those present and thus their actual wars if that is how the breakup of the USA comes to pass, will be far bloodier and merciless than it would have been if Americans simply decided on an amicable divorce.
Americans of tomorrow are going to pay far, far too dearly for what we have permitted. Their blood is on our hands.
There are anti-American aliens coming here. There’s no denying that, but not all immigrants are the same.
I am an immigrant too.
I did break the law when I arrived here by sea, but things mean nothing without proper context. I committed an illegal act, but there were other laws that addressed my particular situation, and eventually I was able to obtain the citizenship.
And let me tell you something:
I am an American in my heart, in my soul and in my allegiance. My children are Americans too. It was MY choice.
I will not insult you by saying that I love this country more than you do, but I can not accept it, if you say that you love her more than I do. And I have many friends just like me, who think and feel exactly like I do and who would put their lives on the line for this country too.
So, please, stop the generalizations.
You don’t see the death of this nation because your friend wasn’t murdered by an illegal who already had killed another man. A classmate of your children wasn’t murdered by another illegal. Your pregnant daughter was not viciously attacked by another illegal at your granddaughters birthday party. Because your wife didn’t see a mob of machete welding illegals chasing another. Because your town isn’t a hot bed for rape, human trafficking, slavery, and every gang from MS-13 to Guatemalan death squad members.
Because your tiny town doesn’t have a murder rate that rivals Chicago in recent years. Because your doctor’s waiting room doesn’t look like the Chiapas free clinic.
Because you’re so blind you think anything I wrote is exaggerated or hyperbole.
What Trump is proposing would lay the foundation to be able to remove those criminals that you just mentioned, and which are, at least in principle not eligible to benefit.
By the way, what you just described is really alarming, but it does not illustrate the death of a nation. Maybe the death of your tiny town.
I don’t live in a tiny town. I live in Miami, and that kind of things happens here too in certain areas. Those people don’t belong here and they have to go. But what’s the point if we don’t make sure that they can’t come back?
If it is this bad in a tiny town so far from the Mexican border you’d have to stand in Canada to get further away, what’s the rest of the country really like?
Look, we get it. You like your vibrant Miami. Go enjoy vibrancy elsewhere. I like the country I was born in.
With the grace of God and determination we will get our country back. We’ll never get it by backing off and giving in.
You are taking this too seriously. Trump knew the Dems would never agree to this. He knew they would reject it.
It is not the new ‘baseline’ for negotiations. It was a limitred tie plea bargain offer he knew they would not take.
Re: JHogan
I pray you are right.
But I have found in negotiations it’s very hard to walk back an offer.
it’s very hard to walk back an offer.
I doubt the President will have any trouble at all.
He doesn’t have to walk anything back. It’s already dead; done in by the D’rats, and nobody else.
He just has to wait for the D’rats to realize that their position is untenable. Eventually they’ll figure it out, just as they did during the “shutdown”. The usual succession of needles, taunts and prods tweeted from the Oval Office may help them realize it.
And when they do, there’s no need to make them the same offer. Trump is now on record as being “reasonable”—whether or not he actually is—and he doesn’t have to do it again. Who’s going to hold him to it? The D’rats? Hahaha … The D’rats will be stuck with whatever he offers at the time. They’ll whine something awful, but they were planning to do that no matter what. He can point to that document in future whenever anyone bitches about him being intransigent. To this end it’s obviously important that the document be public, and well-publicized. That opens him up to criticism from the Right … but he’s not fighting with the Right. It doesn’t harm him at all if the Right doesn’t grasp the nature of his tactics, since he doesn’t need any conservative stamp of approval at this stage.
This is turning out to be as exciting as the Cuban Missile Unpleasantness.
No rewards for illegal entry, period. No amnesty, no “path to citizenship”, nada.
The ‘rats are all in not to take the deal, in spite of their whiners. Trump knows the ‘rats don’t want a deal, they want the issue to bring out the ‘rat vote in order to take back the House.
Jack – what the democrats didn’t consider is that this issue will also bring out Trump’s base as well.
Despite all the accumulated demonstrable experience, people continue to take Trump literally but not seriously, rather than seriously but not literally.
Which is more likely: (1) Trump is a doofus who just happens to keep winning by accident, or (2) the people opposing and underestimating him are the doofuses who keep losing because they are outclassed?
–Andrew
He seems to be willing to compromise, but has a goal in mind. It’s something that I don’t think people are accustomed to seeing.
The end deal as laid out seems pretty reasonable, with more to gain from Trump’s perspective (if that’s his actual perspective, being hard to nail down his position seems to be a feature too).
They are outclassed -just like disgraced former president barack obama, who couldnt find his ass in the dark with both hands if he didnt have instructions, nor who would have survived 5 minutes in the real world without the big diaper supplied to him – and the grotesque beard who shilled as his ‘wife – by the democrat media. (That diaper stinks, but its too late to change it. You’ll always know Barry is coming by the odor.)
I am stealing that Andrew?
Permanent green card if nose clean for 20 years, never citizenship, no chain migration of any family member. End anchor babies. Children of theirs must leave country at age 18 and can not reenter for 10 years followed by getting in line, violation of any of this and permanent deportation.
Do you support Trump’s ‘Dreamer’ deal framework?
I don’t see how this question makes any sense.
It’s like asking, just after the Hamburg firestorm, if I support the tactic of incinerating tens of thousands of German civilians while they try to shelter in their own basements. As a general thing, the only reasonable answer is, of course not. The very idea is grotesque. But considered in the context of a hugely destructive world war, the only reasonable answer is, I sure as hell do.
In this case, the “path to citizenship” would be disastrous as a Federal policy.
But as a gambit to put the Democrats’ cookies in a vise, it’s outstanding.
So, as an American who is not in favor of the destruction of the country, do I support the “framework”, or not?
There’s no way to answer this question as posed.
How many would actually qualify? If it took ten years to gain citizenship, and the only chain was for immediate family, there could easily be a backlog, just as now, and an even longer wait.
However, once they become citizens, they will be able to apply for benefits like any other citizen. Remember that immigration law will probably limit to immediate family for everyone.
People that have applied legally should get the first slots and the newcomers, when they finally qualify, will have to wait in line just as the applicants today do, but there will be fewer slots for family preferences overall.
If nothing else, Trump is forcing decisions on issues that have festered forever.
Anyone who thinks illegal aliens aren’t getting benefits isn’t awake.
Illegal aliens have children we pay for. We pay for their birth. The “American” child is eligible for food stamps which the illegal alien parent can receive on the child’s behalf. We pay for their education.
It goes on and on and on ad nauseum.
Benefits used here = immigration benefits.
Why the scare quotes around “American”. That child is American the exact same way you and your children are.
Re: Milhouse
You’re being deliberately obtuse and lying.
They’re not the same and you know it.
There’s a sound legal argument to be made about the 14th on this.
I loathe arrogant pricks who pretend their assertions are facts.
Actually, the original comment only concerned immigration benefits like citizenship, chain migration for only immediate family, and justice for the people who legally applied and are in the system.
Your response did not address the comment, actually, and the first sentence was completely inappropriate.
Ironic that you chastise someone else.
They are exactly the same as your children and deserve exactly the same treatment. Or maybe your children should be treated as you would like to treat these other Americans.
No, there is no other way to look at it. Your children are Americans for one reason and only one reason: because they were born here. Those children are Americans for the exact same reason, and if you think they’re not there can only be one reason: your ugly bigotry.
I don’t know the fine print or even if it has been written.
Elimination chain migration is an imperative if we keep any immigration at all. Does this bill do that or does it only eliminate chain migration only for the dreamers?
The dreamers have to go through a 12-20 year process to become citizens. That ought to slow the process down but again, does this apply to all immigrants or only dreamers?
Yeah: enable milliions of warped leftists who want to make the nation in the image of the s-holes they were lucky to be out of.
He’s calling the Dems card.. a deal they cannot accept. Now daylight between what the “dreamers’ want and what the Democrats want. What do Dreamers/DACA in the US care about a wall? Chain migration? Lottery? They don’t. Here they have a chance at being done with it… a citizen.. with limitations and a timeline, but citizens… once and one. But no… it’s a no go for the Dems and the activists… and so…. sunlight between them. I love it. Churn and burn. #MAGA. I love this hardball. He’s in their heads!
Do I want immigrants who can present reasoned arguments for their positions or leftist bullies who harass, call people names, threaten, etc.?
I have a personal friend & neighbor who came to the US 20+ years ago to work (really work not just say it). He owns property, owns his own business, pays taxes, raises hard working kids, and takes nothing from the taxpayers. And, he has trouble finding people to hire because these modern day “immigrants” do not want to work. They only want handouts says he.
Any blanket amnesty program will bring a path for a lot of burdens on the taxpayers — taxpayers who include my friend. And, I sure as hell do not want these bullies even passing through the USA, much less staying.
This issue needs to be carefully analyzed and discussed or it will lead to great harm for the country and its citizens. This noisy “scramble” being driven by the leftists is very dangerous and a significant threat to our children and grandchildren. And that is the leftist/Democrat plan.
We must slow down and crush the bullies. And we must stabilize the situation by securing the border. THEN we can talk about paths or whatever. The only reaction to a bully is to crush him. Otherwise, you will submit to him forever.
I can empathize with your friend. I too came here as an immigrant and became a naturalized citizen because I felt an affinity for the Constitution, not because I was looking for a handout.
I too own a small business and have gotten jack shit from the government. Instead, I write checks that pay for “free” shit for other people.
And let me tell you a dirty little secret about chain migration. I have siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles in the old country. You know how many of them have asked me to sponsor them for a Green Card? Not a fucking one.
They’re productive people, with their own businesses, their own careers. They’re not asking to come here, because they’ve already got their shit together over there.
The only people we get with chain migration are the ones that we don’t want. People who can’t get their shit together over there and who think that it will somehow be magically different if they come over here. Except it never is and they end up on welfare.
I’m a “No” on pathways to citizenship for any illegals. I’m likewise a “No” on chain migration and the lottery. And we really need to do something about birthright citizenship. When I was a Brit it was because my parents were Brits, not because of geography. It’s an obsolete concept that invites abuse and it should be eliminated.
Bulldust. Unless you were born after 1983, the only reason you were a UK citizen was because you were born there. It had nothing to do with your parents. That was always the common law, and it continued until Parliament changed it in 1981.
OK, a technicality (which may or may not stand up – I don’t care to research it) that (a) ignores the fact that the UK, like almost all other civilized nations, no longer grants birthright citizenship and (b) ignores the other substantive points that I made.
I generally like your comments, Millhouse, but in this case I’m going to have to say “Objection, Your Honor. Opposing counsel is full of shit.”
1. The UK still and will always recognise birthright citizenship, as does every country in the world. The only question is who gets it.
2. The UK no longer recognises citizenship by right of place of birth alone, but only since 1983, which is a mere moment compared to the centuries when it did so. In abandoning the principle it deliberately changed from the common law tradition to a European doctrine. Who knows whether this will continue after Brexit?
3. It is simply not true “almost all other civilized nations” have abandoned jus soli. Just about every country in North and South America still recognises it.
The only pathway to citizenship I support for Dreamers is going back to your country of birth and starting the legal process like everybody in line. Without Trump’s proposal I still don’t see how you get a majority of Congress to appropriate funds for the wall though.
End birth right citizenship and I’ll take it.
Republicans always negotiate with themselves and what we are left with are crumbs.
No “path to citizenship” for anyone that entered the country ILLEGALLY EVER!
We’ve done this too many times now. Wall and NO AMNESTY!
I might consider the deal if mass deportation comes for the other tens of millions.
Opposed. The parents had no expectation of citizenship either for themselves or their children when they came here illegally.
Plus, all you have to do is see how the judiciary has twisted itself into pretzels ruling on the so called “travel ban” EOs to imagine that if this proposal becomes law it will eventually apply to ALL illegal immigrants, not just the DACA people.
Assuming it gets to SCOTUS, I would not be willing to bet on how either Roberts or Kennedy will vote.
Trump has exposed the Swamp! Offers Dems twice as much (1.8 million vs 800,000). Dems refuse. They just want to use the Dreamers as issue and don’t give a rip about them. Dems will never agree to secure borders. That means we gotta have 60%+ in 2018!
Here us a great analysis, and the selling point for me is covered in this passage:
For one thing, it’s bigger than anything the Democrats have laid out – citizenship for 1.8 million DACA and wannabe DACA recipients after a dozen years, which is about the same time as the immigration line for a green card, meaning it doesn’t stiff those waiting legally. Democrats must feel like they have been playing smallball compared to this, and of course Republicans will benefit at least slightly. Trump has taken the lead and stolen their thunder.
It makes sense because studies show that most Dreamers are underachievers, many of whom are just high school graduates, heavy welfare users, have petty crime backgrounds, and do not speak English. It’s almost a given that most won’t make it to the twelve-year finish line without getting into a bar fight, getting caught graffiti-spraying, or be picked up for drunk driving. The only ones who make it will be those with a work ethic and family values. Those actually are the ones who could become Republicans in the long run.
Trump knows this. Democrats don’t. They believe their own propaganda about all DREAMers being valedictorians. All it would take is the course of time for the sheep to sort themselves out from the goats and then we’d see. At the end, we would get the creme de la creme, and based on their values, not on the things Democrats value, such as class or skin color, just values. Trump’s DACA twelve-year test is for them to have a chance to show their values, kind of like Hercules being asked to perform the twelve labors. In the end, we’d get the people who would actually like being Americans and succeed at it. We wouldn’t have to keep the goats. The goats would go back to Mexico, or wherever.
(True, that for me the mythological reference is a bonus. Full article here – http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/01/trumps_goyuuuuge_intheirface_daca_deal.html )
“Studies show” and “many”?
Deemocrat Leslie, YOU are the dreamer.
Rationalization is the enemy of integrity.
If you are going to insult me, then at least get the charge correct. I am now registered as “No Party Preference”. When I find a political party I can stomach, I will update you.
Still a #TrumpHater, Rags? That’s OK, as he is going to make America great again for you, too.
I apologize for not knowing your current political affiliation. I rarely read anything you publish.
But calling me a “Trumphater” is basically a lie, and you know it. I hate a liar and fraud, and he’s both. Not the man per se, but who he has chosen all his life entire to be.
You’ve chosen to ignore who his is, and doing that will never “make America great again”.
Neither will hand-waving at “many studies”, etc.
Leslie: Thank you for referencing that article. Sometimes the perfect and the good are enemies.
Ragspierre: Remember that whole “3/5″s thing in the Constitution? It wasn’t perfect, and they most certainly kicked a can down the road, and that road gave us the Civil War. While I certainly agree with you on many points, my concern is being such a stickler results in nothing getting done. As this article points out, many “Dreamer” types would run afoul of the conditions required of them. We don’t use this phrase much any more, but “Give him enough rope and he will hang himself.” but that is a risky proposition. Of course there could be some looney leftist liberal who lets the undesirable Dreamers stay. But putting some teeth into things such as sending home Dreamers who drunk drive, might mean the ones left aren’t drunk drivers. Or sending home Dreamers on public assistance, then we are without Dreamers on public assistance. Make the time line long enough, and require enough, such as English language facility, and we could salvage something out of real mess.
There are a few, perhaps enough, Dreamers who are Valedictorians, that blanket removal is not going to work. The trick is sorting them out and removing those who are not demonstrating merit.
“Rationalization is the enemy of integrity.”
How does rationalization compare to reason?
Where does being pedantic fit into reason and rational behavior?
Please see my comment at Ragspierre | January 27, 2018 at 10:03 pm which was misdirected.
Here’s what makes sense. The democrats know that no penalties will be enforced. For goodness sakes the one who assaulted my daughter is back in the town. When I was a cop I arrested a guy who had been deported eight times. Before my report was signed off by my chief the guy was back in the country. Later he was registered to vote. When confronted the dmv gal she was almost in tears, she knew the guy was illegal but could not question or report him because he checked the box to vote then signed the affidavit saying, ‘yup I’m American’.
She would have lost her job. Later when I worked for social services we had to ask illegals at every contact if the wanted to register to vote. If they said yes we were required to smile and help them fill out the form if they needed it.
The dems simply want the whole enchilada and right now with motor voter, no enforcement and a porous border they get it all.
It’s come under fire from the left and Dreamers are calling it white racist ransom.
The left and the Dreamers will not accept any plan that doesn’t let all of Mexico and Central America migrate to the US. Unfortunately, most of them look like Ana Navarro.
INTERESTING article:
“The New Mexican War” http://www.thediplomad.com/2017/02/the-new-mexican-war.html
I am reminded of Admiral Akbar in Star Wars: Return of the Jedi: “It’s a trap!” though not for Republicans, but for democrats and pro-illegal Republicans.
Trump knows precisely what he is doing. And apparently he knows how to get from here to where he wants to go.
Either the senate passes this legislation intact, or at best they take the issue completely off the table for November. At worst, the issue turns, working for Republicans. Cheers –
Trade eventual citizenship for 1.8M for hard dollars for the wall, as well as formally ending chain migration and the visa lottery? Yes. It’s chump change for a much greater win. Otherwise, next time democrats get the reigns they’re going to give those 1.8M immediate citizenship, as well as the same for the other however million continue to be brought in through these U.S.-killing options.
It’s not a deal because the only thing that will happen is the amnesty. Nothing else. No wall, chain migration, no nothing.
It’s not ideal but a reconciliation of practical, rational, and moral. The key is to preserve the terms. Reagan made a deal, and then the ass ran away with the vote.
Yes and no.
I’d be okay with Trump’s offered deal as a final compromise IF it’s enforced. My issues with it were: first, I expected it to be unenforced on a federal level (people not being deported when they did things that cost them their eligibility) when the Democrats held the executive, and on a state level in sanctuary states (California courts not convicting people because it would cost them their eligibility) at all times; second, that I expected it to unfunded (no funds for enforcement) when the Democrats held the legislature on a federal level.
That said, it wasn’t terrible; I would have been unhappy with its passage, but not that unhappy — and maybe the enforcement issues could have been worded to require some stuff upon state conviction.
So while I don’t really *like* the deal, as a final result I would have lived with it.
I was *furious* with the deal as an opening bid.
Until the Democrats rejected it out of hand and threw a fit.
WTF?
Obviously they don’t want to actually solve the Dreamers’ problem, which makes sense now that I think about it.
But why are they willing to make it OBVIOUS that they aren’t willing to actually solve the problem?
No. 1.8 mil is way too high and no e-verify, not like that’s a guarantee of anything. How do you determine who’s a dreamer and who isn’t with stolen id as common as dirt?
There is no deal. Read it again. No deal. Because no matter what promises, end birthright citizenship, end chain migration, end diversity lottery, build a wall into the stratosphere, it doesn’t matter because the only part that will be enforced will be the amnesty and we’ll see all 30 plus million receive it. And teens of millions more will flood in waiting for the next amnesty.
Say what you will. History is on my side. The facts are on my side. Human nature is on my side.
Or go live in your fantasy world were politicians keep their word.
All right. Then what, exactly, do you propose to do about it?
Hint: the only way you will get exactly what you want is to fight, and win, a shooting civil war. Are you up for that?
If I have to fight traitors that put illegals before Americans hell yes I’m willing to fight. But it won’t come to that.
The threat of violence from leftists is a common tactic. “Give us what we want or we’ll hurt you,” is the refrain sung by every leftist since the French revolution.
But you cannot threaten me. You cannot intimidate me. You cannot win except that we give up and cease enforcing our very fair laws.
Let me make this crystal clear, you can Mau-Mau all you like but I am not one of your, ‘flak catchers’.
If you seriously want my answer it is this. Deport them all. Deport them ugly. Deport them mean. Make it so unpleasant they self deport. Seize property. Asset forfeiture for hiring as well.
Make them run for the borders. First illegal protests? He’s on the next flight. They want to riot? I’ve played that game too. Bring in busses zip tie them and expedite deportation.
That’s my solution. We’ve tried it your way since Reagan. How’s that working out for us?
On humanitarian grounds they must return to their disfunctional countries, we are doing those countries no favors by supplying a relief valve for their disaffected people. Send them back to cure the ills of corruption and hopelessness in their native lands, after all they perfected the tools of resistance while here, then we will never have to deal with illegals again. Just doing a little dreaming myself.
The cheap labor cabal is giving us a choice, be dispatched with a dull knife or a sharp one. We should be grateful.
The Democrats do not want any change at all. They like it fine, just the way it is. Remember, in California, illegal aliens can get drivers’ licenses, and then they are automatically registered to vote when those licenses get renewed.
This means that California, with its single-party system, has a nice, handy set of databases that tell who is not likely to vote. This combined with mail-in ballots and a primary system rigged to select two Democrats each time, is tailored to favor the Democrats, regardless of the vote.
It’s not just California. Right now the dems have everything they want. What they don’t want is real deportations because that would end their plans to select new democrat voters.
All they need is to wait one generation until the dreamers and illegals have kids and you’ll never see another republican president.
And the U.S. will be a complete Dem Dictatorship with zero freedom just like Cuba!
I just want to thank our host for pushing the Overton window towards a disastrous one sided deal and betrayal. Float the idea as a proposal. Give options. Then when that’s normalized begin to assume the position was always going to happen.
We couldn’t move that window without those first moves.
Dear ForksDad,
I’m @CloseTheFed on Gab.ai
please contact me over there, if you would.,
thanks so much.
Is that an email addy?
#DACAisCACA throw ALL illegals #OutOutOut!
i don’t care where you came from,or why. if your first act on American soil was to break our laws, there is no societal benefit to us allowing you to stay.
#GTFO!
During the Reagan Era, the democrats agreed to border security if The president would grant amnesty to 12 million illegal aliens.
he did that and the democrats lied. they didn’t pursue border security.
they have used up their grace on this subject. I am unwilling to compromise anymore.
time for them to honor the agreement they made to Ronald Reagan.
Re: PapaGuns
Exactly! I remember Reagan trying to persuade us, “We’ll do this one amnesty, just this one time, it’s the compassionate thing to do, and we’ll enforce the immigration laws and this won’t be needed again.”
Also in 2006 or 2007, when 500,000 illegal aliens were marching in the streets with their Mexican flags, congress listened to Americans and voted for 700 miles of border fencing. Only 35 miles were built.
Americans have been made promises by their politicians. We’re just their slaves now. I don’t give a damn what anyone says. If you vote for “x” and he says he’ll do “x” and this happens for 30 straight, you’re their slaves. They tell YOU how it’s going to be.
We had a revolutionary war over less than this. Much less.
Just like the “illegal alien” (Snark) Obama lied about his support of and support from Louis Farrakhan.
Journalist Releases Photo of Obama With Farrakhan Hidden From Public Since 2005 – LegalInsurrection 1/26/18
https://youtu.be/nJkU1e-_r3w
I was against it, mainly because I’m tired of being betrayed by the “amnesty now, security later” compromise. But now I’m undecided.
Because of the 12 year filter. I’ve read analysis via Insty that most dreamers will commit crimes and self-select out of citizenship. The ones that make it through are more likely to have family values and an adherence to the Rule of Law. And as such, more likely to vote for conservative principles.
Oh i see Leslie already linked to the analysis in American Thinker, way upthread. Thanks Leslie.
I’ll support the immigration Bill if we can add a rider – reduce the penalty for killing Marxists down to $10 a head. 😉
OTOH I admit to a strong identification with Charlie Brown on this issue.
Lucy it’s promising me that this time, no really, pinky swear, we will enforce immigration law. And then…
“Aaaaugh!”
I view this as an opening negotiation starter. And there seems very little chance the Dems will accept it anyhow. There seems little chance they will negotiate, either. End result: DACA dies in March, Trump blames Dems for refusing a deal that would have legalized 1.8 million. He does it all summer and fall until the midterms.
I want our immigration laws enforced. If we just start today, I’m happy. Living in southern California, and being an immigrant who followed the rules, with fear and trepidation – i believe we have to start somewhere. It’s like they ER room. Stop the bleeding and stabilize. I think President Trump has shown democrats don’t want any change, period. Their hand is now exposed and we need to be smart about moving forward. I don’t care one way or another about dreamers, but i want law enforcement back in charge. As long as Senator Graham shuts up, i believe it is possible.
I am still holding my tongue and trying to figure all this out.
Nothing to figure out. Trump is willing to cave on immigration.
“it may be the only home some of them remember),”
Most of our great-grandparents lefy the only home they had ever had come here. People from other countries are clamoring right now to leave the only home they’ve ever had to come here.
The Left has long told us that America is the racist capitalist patriarchy, so any place else must be better. How could Mexico, which has gun control, government benefits, a main political party called the institutional Revolutionary party, and no Donald Trump be less desireable than rhe horrible corporate owned USA? Something doesn’t quite add up here 🙂
Can’t remember when I’ve read so many differing comments and agreed with the majority of what was said. I suppose that is why I marked “undecided”
I don’t understand why anyone wants the hardworking immigrants sent home. I want a pathway to citizenship for the dreamers and think it would be inhumane to send the successful ones back to a sh**le they’ve nothing in common with. But that’s limited to dreamers (and perhaps those who have been good neighbors and citizens too). I have no stomach for the cattle cars back to Mexico, and believe there is no way on earth Americans would allow that to happen for the hard workers.
That being said, I agree with those who are angry that the deal started here, instead of ending here. And why no e-verify? We have all been burned too many times before. It is like Lucy and the football. So how do we deal with the fact that if we make them legal, many will demand $15/hr the next day along with welfare and section8.
I’d love to see the criminals, gang-bangers, anti-Americans and lazy slackers sent back right away.
So count me down for fixing the problem. Perhaps Trump started the deal here knowing the Dems would be like the GOP on health care – exposing themselves for what they are.
I hope we can fix it. It is time.
Re: elle
I downvoted you although I agree with much you wrote.
But when you wrote, “I don’t understand why anyone wants the hardworking immigrants sent home” that was a bridge too far.
I was about 28 when Reagan asked us to show compassion to illegal aliens here. He said we would ONLY DO IT ONE TIME. Instead, we’ve done it over and over and over again.
Now, we are constantly insulted in OUR OWN COUNTRY. Why? Because the dems and the left have figured out they can guilt America into destroying itself.
ANYONE THAT CAME HERE KNEW IT WAS ILLEGAL. THEY KNEW.
In the USA, if your parents commit a crime, the government has NO HESITATION in separating parents from their children. NONE.
If American parents sent their minor children on these dangerous trips, they’d be adjudged unfit and the children removed from the home.
So give me a break on this crap about being unable to imagine wanting to send “hard workers” back. Americans are PAYING FOR THESE PEOPLE’S BENEFITS In involuntary taxes, crowded roads, hospitals and schools. American women work to pay for taxes for Mexican mothers that stay at home. HOW IS THAT FAIR OR RIGHT????!!!!!
I can’t IMAGINE Americans wanting other Americans to SUFFER for FOREIGNERS.
SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU HAVE MORE SYMPATHY FOR FOREIGNERS THAN YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS. HOW DOES THAT WORK?
Illegal aliens are exempt from all manner of our laws, while Americans must jump higher and higher hoops (TSA, E-Verify, ss taxes, biz licenses, tax returns, et cetera et cetera et cetera) to remain in the clear with the law.
I’m AMAZED you don’t see something wrong with this denial of equal protection to American citizens. Why do you think Americans should be 2nd class citizens in their own country? HOW is that justified?
Hardworking DACA illegal aliens? More than 72% of the DACA illegal aliens are dependent on govt. services. Think about it. I have a problem swallowing that.
You should also have a problem with “more than 72%” blah, blah, blah.
When you see a number like that…ANY number…you should be looking under the hood.
DREAMERS should not be deported because they are a population of bad people (they are not, any more than they are all STEM students), but because they are here illegally.
(Drops mic)
Re: Rags
If they came here as minors, it is 100% on benefits.
IF THEY CAME HERE AS MINORS, THEN THEY WENT TO AMERICAN SCHOOLS PAID FOR BY AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.
THE NUMBER IS 100% ON THE AMERICAN DOLE.
Nope. That’s utter bullshit.
ANYBODY who lives in Texas, for instance, pays sales taxes on everything they buy that is taxable.
ANYBODY who lives in Texas, for instance, pays property taxes on any property they own or rent.
Thems the facts.
Re: Rags
Plyler v. Doe was a Texas case. The Texas govt. in 1982 recognized illegal aliens were not shouldering an appropriate share of the cost of government school education.
I’m not intimately familiar with Texas taxation, but I can tell you in Georgia 75% of property taxes go to the schools. Most illegal aliens live in TRAILER PARKS here, where the property taxes are miniscule compared to the cost of the children living there.
Also in Georgia, very little of the sales tax is used for K-12. It’s basically the property tax that shoulders that. And it costs $11,000 per year per child in my county for government school education.
We also have an income tax which is pretty low, and again, it’s still the property tax that shoulders almost all of K-12 government schools.
So, do you have a mobile home park where the property tax is equal to $33,000 per year? Must be really nice. . . . .
ANY renter is, per force, paying ALL the property taxes owed by their landlord, or the landlord is an idiot and should go out of business.
It’s all just part of the rent, unless the rent is so depressed by a glut of housing that landlords cannot demand rent rates that cover it.
BTW, this WOULD be a collateral problem if all illegal immigrants were deported. There would be a collapse in the housing market, which might be just a hard reality of getting them out. The point being that nothing is without some costs, and some of those costs are both appreciable and seldom considered by flamethrowers.
To Close the Fed and Paul, for the most part, we agree. But it seems where we disagree is over the semantics of hard working immigrants and whether or not the fact that they came here illegally should result in them being sent home or not.
First – when I say hard working immigrants, I am ONLY talking about the ones who both you and I would consider to embody the American dream. They heard the siren song of American freedom and prosperity and did what it took to get here AND today participate as fully contributing, honest members of society and express their love for what America gave to them. I’m also open to a pathway for the DACA children who ARE the percentage that work hard and keep afoul of the law. The gang-bangers and professional welfare suckers, are not included in Trumps plan.
I suppose, in a way you are right. I kind of do favor some of THESE PARTICULAR foreigners over some Americans. Wouldn’t we both like to see the particular subset I spoke of replace the actual citizens who so freely speak of how much they HATE it here. I’d like to see the Antifa like-brats voluntarily give up their slots to those who love it here….. oh, sorry, I drifted off for a second and was dreaming.
American big business created a system that encouraged these people to risk life and limb to get here. Maybe “we” didn’t condone it, but it was condoned for decades. I don’t begrudge the people who came. In fact I admire them and hope I have had their gumption.
It’s not their fault that corrupt politicians use them as pawns like the the Palestinians to woo votes from suckers and ballot fraud. It’s not their fault that our gut-less politicians wink-wink and nod-nod to keep them here in a shadow class. The reality is that they were trafficked her for cheap labor. There is NO REASON why we can’t set up a system that works for everyone. But Big business wants their shadow-class indentured servant labor and they pay big dollars to the politicians to keep it coming at our expense.
But all that said, I really don’t disagree with anything you said. I too acknowledge that the split second that we agree to a truly fair deal, it just begins again.
So build the wall, create border security and establish a meaningful system to bring up the laborers who are willing to work the dairy farms and fields. Make it legal and make it real. Otherwise, the human trafficking for cheap labor stream will find a way back, no matter what we do.
Sadly, it will probably never happen because powerful people don’t want a “system”. They want cheap labor. And the human traffickers will always be happy to oblige.
Re: Elle
Again, I appreciate your sentiments but cannot accept exchanging one American for a foreigner. Instead, we should root out the educational dysfunction that is creating these American intellectual midgets.
It wasn’t “business” per se that wanted cheaper labor, it was Americans who wanted cheaper labor.
From time to time I used to employ 1 to 3 people. The last time was a few years ago. It was too damn hard to hire her and keep her. I spent as much time on paperwork for her as she did doing work for me. It was ridiculous.
American labor is tied down like Gulliver by the lilliputians. Quit treating Americans like government slaves and give them the same freedom from bureaucracy and taxes as illegal aliens, and all the sudden, American labor will look very good indeed.
I can not disagree with anything you have said. Do I want to reward them for breaking the law? No. But I do feel that it is okay to extend grace and compassion where it is warranted because this issue is not just white hats and black hats, but a complex problem with many good people caught in the middle.
elle, I think a lot of us are thinking along the same lines. It is wrong to reward lawbreakers. Circumstance? Some of the DACA illegals were brought by their parents, some were sent independently by their parents, some are doctors, lawyers, scientists and other professionals that are the kind of people that RAISE immigration policy would encourage and ensure.
The fact of the matter is that the majority, 72% are dependent on government services. I’ve posted the links here at LI before. The idea of work permit with no path to citizenship is a compromise for those that can meet the standards. The reward in my mind comes in the form of not prosecuting illegals and allowing them to follow the immigration laws as they exist and they can apply in their home countries at the end of the line like everyone else.
The law must be applied to everyone equally.
Cattle cars? What Leftist blog claiming conservatives and Trump supporters are all Nazis have you been reading? If Congress enacts a strong e-Verify system (that’ll be the day), there won’t be any deportations, nor any need for hardly any. Cut off the welfare and institute e-Verify and the Illegal Aliens will go back home.
IF we really need temporary agricultural labor (and we might), pass a Guest Worker program.
I suggest you read Don Surber’s takevon this.
Hmmmm!
http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2018/01/trumps-plan-to-scuttle-daca.html?m=1
I read it and share some of the same sentiments. The references to Katy Perry escape me. I am getting ready to put one foot in the water on this one. I have a tab open to the LI link:
https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/White-House-Framework-on-Immigration.pdf
I intend to read this today. A lot has happened. I do not have a grasp yet. I really thought POTUS would put forth a proposal that had no hope of passing in the House or the Senate. I still do not know. Later this afternoon after I have read further I might… even then I think the dust has to settle. It is still a few hours until the Sunday morning political shows are broadcast in the USA. I can start grabbing them a few hours later.
What a mess.
So far nobody has been able to explain this whole thing to me to my satisfaction.
I am all ears if you can shed some light.
http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file/455839/jerry-falwell-jr-rationalization-donald-trump-right-wing-progressivism
That’s a very nice piece directly on point.
pedantic adjective uk /pəˈdæn.tɪk/ us /pedˈæn.tɪk/ disapproving
giving too much attention to formal rules or small details:
They were being unnecessarily pedantic by insisting that Berry himself, and not his wife, should have made the announcement.
I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Following principle is not being “pedantic”. Giving rationalizations to cover a complete flip in policy is not being “rational”.
More mindless drivel from the anti-American NRO.
More mindless drivel from the nutter cultist liar, who can’t have read the piece referenced.
You’re so original. “cultist”, “nutter”, “liar”. Don’t pee yourself.
NRO, home of support for a more liberal supreme court.
As I said…
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/455683/anthony-kennedy-swing-vote-supreme-court-we-need-him-alive
Did you read the article by Doughterty?
It makes rational points. Take them down.
But you won’t. You’ll declare, as in the past, that everything published in NR is “dog poo”.
That’s simply a stupid lie by a stupid liar.
“Did you read the article by Doughterty?”
Enough to know “everything published in NR is “dog poo””.
Hell, everything you link is nevertrumper cultist dogpoo. No surprise there.
Yep. You admit…again…that your “mind” is a closed container of packed bullshit. Why do you even post such transparent nonsense?
Several of the NR authors are T-rump supporters. And you either know this, lie about it, or are so flucking ignorant and brain-washed you don’t know the facts.
The simple truth is you can’t deal with anything that disturbs your “religion” in the least.
I admitted nothing you lying SOS, just to use your wording.
Golbug writes such pathetic drivel, torturing psychology to try and support his nevertrump cult, that it is painful to read. He needs to see a shrink, as do you.
Only a card carrying member of the nevertrump cult could read it and think it worthy of print. You’ll swallow such drivel because progs do. Simple as that.
OK. Read it and take it apart.
You can’t, and not because you find it “painful”. You’re a moral coward who cannot deal in ideas that are heretical to your religion.
“You’re a moral coward…”
Ooh, “coward”. Almost to the Fuzzy standard. Throw in “evil” and we’ll be there.
“…who cannot deal in ideas that are heretical to your religion.”
LOL, the only religious cult is the nevertrump that you and goldbug have stuck up your asses.
Takedown? I wouldn’t wipe my butt with a goldbug paper. It would likely contaminate me. A waste of time.
It’s damn near illiterate. But if you really want the takedown…
.
.
.
Just read the damn comments. It’s already there.
No, honey. YOU do the work. Don’t DEPENDENDS on the other T-rumpian idiots.
YOU go for it. You can crib off the comments if you need to.
Go ahead.
You can’t.
You and goldbug worked to elect shrillary and want to lecture the rest of us, including Falwell, about morality.
Rich one there. Sorry, ragspeepee, but I do not dance to your pathetic little flute.
No one with half a brain or IQ over 50 will get past a few paragraphs of that illiterate drivel.
Yep. Cowardly retreat.
Nutin’. You got nutin’. What a pathetic pussy.
Lessee, the federal government at the highest levels in the DOJ, FBI, and assorted intelligence agencies are corrupt to the core, covering up crimes of the Obama administration, attempting to throw an election, and attempting a coup…
While you and Goldberg sit on your fat asses worried about Jerry Falwell Jr’s religion. All because Falwell supports Trump. No other reason. Psycho.
Way to focus on the important stuff. You corrupt bunch are the most pathetic group in this country.
You throw out the word coward. You don’t know what it means. Cowards are you and the Goldberg’s that worry about the Falwell’s while the country is attacked from within.
Pathetic. Pussy? Go look in the mirror. Meow.
Thanks, Butt-hurt. More people will read the piece now that you’ve goon nutter on the NR again, just to see if it COULD be as you say it is…!!!
Do I know my moronic cultists, or what? 😉
” More people will read the piece now that you’ve goon nutter on the NR again, just to see if it COULD be as you say it is…!!!”
Good enough. Anyone with a IQ above 50 will know it for what it is, an illiterate job of writing by a Trump hater, hating on someone that supports Trump, trying his best to imply hypocrisy where none exists. That is if they can get past the rambling illiteracy on display.
“Do I know my moronic cultists, or what?”
Yes, you continually link to them. Takes one to know them apparently.
Moronic cultists indeed. Look in you mirror.
People should read the piece I linked to, and decide who is “illiterate”.
You’re a slobbering moron and dedicated liar.
Re: Barry
Yes, I quit reading NRO after Kevin Williamson went off the rails and said poor white Americans deserved to be replaced because they were all druggies….
After that, NRO was completely unpalatable. . . .
It’s a shame, because Williamson is otherwise a good writer. “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?”
Of course, that isn’t what Williamson said.
Here’s more salt on the slug…
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/455847/fbi-bias-trump-criticism-justified-sometimes
Close the Fed/
Yeah, I meant what I said. I think Trump knows exactly what he is doing in this negotiation.
He will either get what he wants or he kills DACA. Democrats have no leverage, and the law which is making a comeback under Trump is on his side.
I enjoy watching Trump in action.
Further before you presume to lecture me, I have relatives in other countries who have been threatened with jail time, seen friends arrested on trumped up charges. My wife an engineer, born a Muslim, came to the US and got her advanced degrees here. Imagine a Trump-supporting minority Muslim woman.
She married me, and the laws on the books of more than a dozen countries say we can be arrested or put to death for our marriage and beliefs if we don’t renounce them. We traveled to Muslim-majority countries and once had been almost arrested for an act that a local wanted to consider blasphemous.
If you don’t think I appreciate America and its freedoms, or recognize what is in peril here, or have contributed in my own way to dozens of causes and candidates to try to save things, or haven’t seen other democracies circle the drain, then eff off.
You don’t know me, and you sure as hell don’t have the right to judge me.
Re: Princeton Al
You’re the one treating this like a game show. We have Americans that have died in the most unimaginably gruesome ways, because of these illegal alien foreigners. And because of the legal foreigners for that matter. How many have been run over by vehicles because of them, here in New York? Yeah, it’s SOOOOO funny!!!!! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
And I profoundly disagree that if the dems don’t go along with Trump he’ll simply start deporting the DACA recipients. He’s telegraphed plenty of times that he wants to enable them to stay and that if congress doesn’t get its act together, he’ll do something to enable that.
He got a tax cut, which is phenomenally good. But he got crap on obamacare. Negotiating with 535 village idiots is not as easy as negotiating one on one with men spending their own money.
And frankly, I never knew what a muslim was until 9/11. And frankly, I think we need a constitutional amendment to ban their entry into this country. It’s theocratic and never had a reformation removing that doctrine, or so many others incompatible with American standards of decency.
Re: Princeton Al
Furthermore, all Trump’s loose talk has got the border crossings back at Obama levels.
It’s disgusting.
Yeah, It bugs me too that border crossings are up to Obama levels. What happened to the math? We started with 800k+ DACA illegals that the leftists want to anoint with US citizenship based in part that 600 DACA illegals are serving in the military and now the numbers are ballooning to 1.8+ million.
PrincetonAl, I really hope that Trump has put this whole thing out there to portray himself as benevolent and in favor of a Bill of Love with no real chance of it going through the house and the senate. Fingers crossed and I am wondering how this is going to shake out.
While this is all going on what I would really like to see is Trump put a boot to Sessions’ butt and get him moving with the DOJ. Photo Ops with dozens or even hundreds arrested violent drug dealing criminal illegal aliens is not even a drop in the bucket. The USA must clean house.
No more amnesty for invaders, ever. In fact, consistent with Section 1 of Amendment XIII, every convicted invader should be enslaved.
My President is one smart dude. MAGA!
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/455841/trump-mueller-interview-president-refuse-request
More evidence of the “unAmerican dog poo” that is NR.
LOL.
Yep, “unAmerican dog poo”.
The condescension is palpable.
And for you, VERY well earned…!!!
This was brilliant on Trumps part. It will NEVER pass in the Senate when the Dems vote against it. Then Trump gets to blame the Dems. Pure Genius.
Yup. I really hope that was and is the plan.
This is an INVASION.
Here is the picture: The American people REJECTED the Democratic party ideals/proposal for the country (they have being losing seats all over the country since Obama was first elected) and instead to adjust their views to reflect the American people desires, they want to promote an invasion to change demographics and in doing so, IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS OVER THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
They have nothing to offer in the direction the American people have and they are behaving like a fanatic cult were whatever happens, their ideology is right.
This is the same mindset that the Nazis had and not surprisingly, supported by the same people (Soros, etc)
AMNESTY OF ANY KIND IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.