Group dynamics at the debate
Uniting against the common enemy
It turns out that instead of a snoozefest, the third debate was fascinating. And it was all thanks to the incredibly clear anti-GOP bias of CNBC.
What am I talking about? Group dynamics, that’s what.
I’ve studied groups and I’ve run groups. Groups don’t happen just because you get a bunch of people together in a room, even if they’re sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing “Kumbaya.” There comes a time in the life of a collection of people when they become a group, even if only temporarily—even a group of people that’s pitted against each other in competition, like the candidates last night. If you give them a common enemy against which to unite, they sometimes become a group, and that’s what happened Wednesday evening.
It took a little time. Even though the candidates knew they were in enemy territory with these moderators, I think even they were surprised at the extent of the bias and the sharpness of the “gotcha” questions. So it took a while to know how to react.
Trump had already called one question “not nicely asked,” but Cruz was most definitely the leader, the first to go on a lengthy offensive against the moderators. And what an attack it was! Take a look:
That was the turning point. After that, the rest of the candidates caught on, one by one—except for Kasich, Paul, and Bush—and let the moderators and the MSM have it. They also refused after a while to bash each other, and explicitly called the moderators out on that goal, too. Rubio was particularly strong, but several of the others were impressive as well, once the “unite against the common enemy” idea took hold.
“You changed the entire trajectory of the debate” Sean Hannity rightly said to Cruz, whose leadership was, to me, one of the most striking things about his performance. And Trump noted the group bonding thing: “There was a certain camaraderie up there tonight” he told Hannity.
It may not last. But he’s correct—it was there. And it was probably the last thing the CNBC hosts intended.
[Neo-neocon is a writer with degrees in law and family therapy, who blogs at neo-neocon.]
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Trump tweeted this debate would be unfair before the debate.
Now that the entire field was attacked by CNBC, its clearly time to stop letting the DNC run our debates and time to throw a net over the RNC and drag them away.
The Uniparty got their asses handed to them by the contenders and thus became heroes to us all.
I tweeted that water is wet before the debate.
And yet only Trump tweeted it would be unfair. No other candidate seemed to know water was wet or had the balls to say it.
It takes “balls” in Britt-world to state the obvious.
Normal people are loath to state the obvious. Because it’s…I dunno…so OBVIOUS!
What a maroon!
Rags you ignorant slu*t
Normal people are loathe to consistently post such childish content free statements which do far more to reveal the small and petty nature of your mind and vacuous state of your personality.
Jeeez, I must have hit a nerve!
Apparently “water is wet” is news to BOTH Britt and his object of adoration!
Go back and check the tapes… Cruz demolished them with flair and substance; all Trump could muster was “very unfair question!” or some other such childish statement. However I suppose Trump was consistent with his track record of speaking at a third or fourth grade level.
I think everybody gets it by now… Trump is “tough” and he’s a “fighter”… rah team Trump! But isn’t it about time we get to some substance? After “Hope and Change” I think I will seriously barf if what we are selling is “Make America Great Again!” Has America really become that dumb?
There is nothing more substantive and important than building the wall, deporting illegals, and enfircing our laws. Trump along with Jeff Sessions are the only politicians who understand just how substantive that fact. There is plenty of substance with Trump. You just fail to recognize it. The fault lies with you and not Mr. Trump.
Also the theme “Make America Great Again” is the perfect encapsulation of what needs to be done. Especially after 7 years of a president dedicated to the false principle that america is a force for evil in the world and has for those 7 years done everything in his power to make america less and second rate.
So what you see with the same condescension as a left wing commenter, I and a majority of the gop base see as a perfect encapsulation of exactly what needs to be done to fix this country – Make America Great Again.
Many polls are now showing Carson taking the lead. In NONE of them does Trump have anything close to a majority.
I agree that immigration is a big issue, but it’s not the only one. And Trump is way off in the weeds on many important issues as we’ve ‘discussed’ before here. I prefer a candidate that is right on more/most of them.
If it comes down to it I’ll hold my nose and vote for trump. Hell, I’d vote for one of my dog’s steaming piles of shit before I’d vote for Hillary Clinton or that stupid fucking socialist what’s his name.
“The majority of the GOP base…” (73.2%) supports someone other than Donald Trump. And that’s not counting any post-poll bumps Cruz or Rubio may be getting in days to come.
“How can that be? Everyone I know loves Donald Trump!” Don’t be a Pauline Kael.
In many polls national and state, when the 1st choice and 2nd choice votes are added together Trump is near and sometimes just over 50%. When the polls ask about various issues and their importance immigration is always over 50%.
Trump got bumps out of the first 2 debates and his performance in the 3rd debate was better than the first 2, so expect Trump to get an even bigger bump out of this debate. Trump will be between 32% and 40% in most polls that come out in a week to 2 weeks.
In many ‘My Little Pony’ episodes, Blossomforth and Cloudchaser get together and sniff unicorn farts.
Still waiting for that big bump over the NOT T-rump tax plan.
Trump whined that the question asked of him wasn’t very nice.
Cruz pointed out that the questions asked of the other candidates were ridiculous.
That’s a sharp distinction.
We’ve already had two narcissists in the White House in the last three Presidencies. Do we really need another?
Let’s remember, Cruz hit the moderators on specific bs questions asked of others, including Trump, and did not point out a specific question asked of himself.
What I saw was warranted indignation at the treatment given to them all.
That was not ‘whining’ in my view.
Who is your candidate/s of choice, Clintack? Are they Dem or Republican?
I thought I was about as clear as I could be — Cruz is my candidate.
The “sharp distinction” is between Trump’s thin skin and Cruz’s leadership.
She’s just reverting to form. This is what she does. She slimes people who utter Trumpian heresy.
I merely wanted to understand your POV since I’m not familiar with you.
Rags, go feed you ant collection.
While I like cruz and loved his attacks on the moderators you are not correct that making good quips in a debate is an indication of leadership ability in real life organizations. It is only a sign of having a quick mind and solid wit. Good qualities for sure but not a necessary predictor of leadership abilities.
Then Cruz “whined”. Which he didn’t. He pointed out the obvious, led the insurrection against the GOPe approved left wing hacks masquerading as “moderators”, thus making the night a decent one for the GOP candidates in general.
Trump is not capable of mounting a counter attack in the way Cruz can. Calling out the GOPe approved hacks is not whining in my book, it is pointing out the obvious.
I truly hope this is the start of something new when facing stupid questions from a very biased media. Instead of trying to do the pc thing call them out on what they are doing!
Republican candidates are not going to satisfy the progressive media by try to placate them with pc messages.
Tell it like it is!
Last night was a big night! it’s going to change the way conservative candidates respond to progressive (left) media!
THANK YOU SENATOR TED CRUZ!
One of the things that comes out of this is the lesson of natural leaders, or psychological leaders, versus formal or hierarchal leaders.
Ted Cruz showed himself to be the natural leader, and everyone else fell in behind him. It was a beautiful dynamic to watch demonstrated.
Everyone in America should take that lesson and run with it.
I agree that Cruz showed America what a take charge leader looks like in action.
A powerful group formed behind him and they all stood up as one.
It was magnificent to see and was an unintended consequence for the Democrat Party, which ran that debate.
What was impressive about Cruz was his “no-notes” recall of the stupid moderator questions asked of the candidates before him. Memory capability like that just might come in handy for our next president.
Yes, Cruz’s resisitation of each question and target under a gigantic spotlight was like something out of a movie. Rare to witness it in real life , in my experience.
I saw a side of Ted last night I had not seen previously …he showed anger ..controlled purposeful determined & and confident anger as he executed his group defending broadside, not just on the moderators but the entire Liberal media itself.
He nuked them on their own airways to their faces.
God, that made me punch the air and shout YES!!! Let the Bastards Have It!!!!!
Yes, it would be nice to have a POTUS who doesn’t stammer like a fucking moron without his teleprompter. “Smartest guy in the room” my ass.
It was irony on steriods watching Megyn Kelly-Crowleu host a post debate segment with Howard Kurtz discussing the CNBC moderators doing exactly what she did. Her expression was one of resigned sadness.
I’ve been a booster of Megyn mostly, but she has seemed obsessed with putting down Trump, even demeaning his supporters. Last night she claimed to have caught him misrepresenting his H-1B position, saying he was against them.
While she mocked Becky for not having her facts clear, Megyn got her facts wrong. But Trump didn’t clarify his position, and needs to study his own position papers apparently. But he has always said we should keep the good immigrants, though illegals would have to return first.
But Megyn “lied” saying Trump was against the H-1B. His site says they should pay prevailing wage so they don’t take entry level jobs from Americans. That is right, we want to keep the best and brightest working here. But H-1Bs should not be given out to displace American workers at cheaper wages, as happens now.
Cruz also advocates for more H-1Bs … not sure what he has said about those cases where Americans have to train their H-1B replacements. I’m still for Cruz first, but Trump seems more likely to win broader appeal, even if it comes from the LIV zombies.
Having the government assign “prevailing wage levels” is the problem. Get rid of the law and Americans will be hired.
So T-rump and Rubio do not have the issue well defined and who gives a rats behind about Zuckerberg.
“Last night she claimed to have caught him [Trump] misrepresenting his H-1B position, saying he was against them.”
Trump isn’t aware of what his H-1B position is. What he said during the debate was much different than what his own website says his position is.
From National Review Online, Mark Krikorian:
“Rubio’s vulnerability on immigration would have been more obvious to viewers if Trump had not, in effect, renounced his own critique of the issue and embraced Rubio’s position.
Becky Quick offered Trump an ideal opportunity to follow Rubio with his critique of the H-1B program. After all, Trump’s own immigration platform calls for the very reforms to H-1B that Rubio falsely claimed he supported.
But exposing Rubio’s falsehoods would have required Trump to have actually read his own policy on immigration. He has not. Further proof that he hasn’t done so came when Becky Quick asked him about the line in his policy paper that attacks the I-Squared bill by referring to Rubio as “Mark Zuckerberg’s personal senator.” Trump’s response was “I never said that” and “I have [said] nothing at all critical of him,” meaning Zuckerberg. Only later did Quick mention that the criticism appeared on Trump’s own website, though Quick oddly apologized for bringing it up.
Instead, Trump embraced Zuckerberg and echoed the tech billionaire’s call to let all foreign STEM graduates stay in the U.S. He went further, essentially renouncing the entire pro-worker portion of his immigration program:
I’m in favor of people coming into this country legally. And you know what? They can have it anyway you want. You can call it visas, you can call it work permits, you can call it anything you want. . . . As far as Mark is concerned, as far as the visas are concerned, if we need people, they have — it’s fine. They have to come into this country legally. We have a country of borders. We have a country of laws. We have to obey the laws. It’s fine if they come in, but they have to come in legally.
Thus does Trump embrace the ‘legal good/illegal bad’ perspective on immigration, wherein huge, even unlimited admissions of foreign workers are okay, so long as they’re given a piece of paper on the way in.”
Ace, from Ace Of Spades blog:
“As for Trump: Trump’s own plan does in fact call for such reforms — the one on his website. But this is precisely the plan he disowned at the debate, claiming Becky Quick was just making this up. “I don’t know where you people get this,” he said, or words to that effect.
Although this seemed at the moment to be Trump demolishing Becky Quick for her shoddy research, in fact, she was correct: She read this on Trump’s website.
It’s part of the immigration plan Jeff Sessions wrote for him — which Donald Trump apparently did not even read. He slapped it up on the website, said “Here’s my plan,” but apparently hasn’t been f***ed enough to read it.
Because this is not the first time Trump has talked up making sure we get all these wonderful highly-skilled foreign workers here on H1-B workers.
I’ve noted this on the blog before: the immigration policy that Trump puts on his website — written by Jeff Sessions — promises reforms and restrictions on the H1-B program.
But every single time Trump actually talks about it, he talks about letting in as many highly-skilled workers as possible. We can’t lose such people, he says. We can’t have them go to school at Harvard, then go work in another country.
So we need them… to displace existing American workers.
It’s not just that this is a contradiction. It’s a contradiction he doesn’t even attempt to reconcile, because I don’t think he’s even aware of what “his” immigration plan on his website actually says.”
yeah I was just reading over at Ace … Trump has walked that back. He doesn’t know his own position (the one on his website) He seems to get into fight mode and hasn’t thought through all his details.
But Megyn specifically said his website said he was against the H1-Bs, which is wrong. He has always said put Americans first, but also take in others that are qualified. That seems right to me, as to growing our own economy. But I’m not sure it is practical to figure out how to put Americans first, when foreigners come cheaper. Maybe put Americans first means NO H1-Bs at least till we have a strong recovery.
Trump seems to be most busy fighting the “persona wars” … you know, the tactic Hillary used in her ten hour testimony to emerge “victorious”, despite the lies that were uncovered. That’s apparently the most important thing now. Then when he is not working that magic, he tries to fill in gaps on all the policy stuff, and learn how to present it.
To me the immigration thing is most important, and so many forces are against we the people, that only Trump is really fighting for the “Make America Great Again” concept … even though he has no record we can rely on. But bringing in skilled workers making over $50K is mostly good for us, as long as they can’t bring in 20 cousins and grandparents.
The whole STEM thing is an issue … I’m not sure where we really stand on it. Better to raise Americans in the sciences, instead of the dumbing down education. We seem stuck in school union controlled mediocrity.
With respect, the idea that among Cruz, Jindal, Rubio, etc., etc., only Trump wants to “make America great again” is ludicrous. It’s populist pap, as old in politics as the hills.
well that was about immigration, not other policy, and I was just using his slogan. He is the one that talks about “America First”, not all the globalist, citizen of the world crap.
Coulter takes credit for much of his early success as she gave Trump a copy of her “Adios America” book. BigGov has been hiding the impact of all the illegals, so Trump fought back on that front and won wide support, reveling the criminal element of illegals. Coulter points out that since 1965 our immigration policy has been geared toward third world immigrants. That has help lay the foundation for the welfare state and the cheap labor competition, and a changed culture.
Trump’s fight for sovereignty and putting America first, rather than globalism and diversity, has been his big appeal, which is why I say he is the only one that really pushed that. But he has not clarified if his big door would effectively be amnesty, and now had to backtrack on his H1-B flub. He has also been much stronger on “being tough with China”. But his slogan is what America seeks. Cruz is good on “Breaking the DC Cartel”, but not so direct on the sovereignty issue.
The move toward globalism and open borders and diversity is not populist, it is the establishment and leftist. Resist we must. Populist ideas are not necessarily just “pap”. As we see in Europe with Merkel flooding the country with Muslims, populists are resisting, and they are right. Calling traditional America racist and the tea party haters full of “populist pap” is the left’s tactic, and the RINOs us it as well.
Hopefully Cruz will adjust his H1-B position, and recognize America has had enough of the unprecedented 50 year wave of immigration, legal and illegal. Trump got a taste of the backlash when he wavered in the debate.
T-rump triangulates T-rump. Damn that begger!
And most of it is all BIG GOVERNMENT!
How is setting “prevailing wages” different from setting “minimum wages”?
Of course it isn’t. It is ALLLLLLLL ANTI-CONSERVATIVE.
You have to suspend critical thinking to support Duh Donald.
I couldn’t find the official Cruz position on H1-Bs, but he had wanted to triple them. FOX had one of the fired Disney workers on this morning … they’re saying companies all over are hiring cheaper foreign STEM labor using the H1-Bs.
The world is not a free market zone run by honest brokers that are all pure at heart. Defense of our nation is indeed a “Big Gov” federal obligation.
I don’t know how they’d set a prevailing wage, but the gimmickry currently allows the Zuckerbergs to get around hiring more expensive Americans and get their cheap labor via the H-1Bs.
1. No. National defense is NOT a “Big Government” activity.
That was stupid. Sorry, but it just was.
2. I understand markets and economics rather well. I have seen companies who specialize in doing nothing BUT advising clients how to avoid the regulations respecting hiring American workers so they can hire cheaper foreign workers.
This is what I call a “gradient”. When you leave them without a response, people will do what human nature dictates.
When you have H1B visas and a sufficient delta between the wages skilled foreign workers will work for and American workers, people are going to find wayssssssssss to defeat the regs on H1B hiring.
When you artificially try to set wages for H1B workers, you queer the market, just like you do when you set ANY government regulation of the market. That ALWAYS has perverse consequences that hurt real people AND American businesses.
Interesting. I held a mirror up to my TV and I could have sworn I saw the DNC debate being moderated by Hannity, Limbaugh and O’Riley.
Must be some strange mirror universe where a political party allows their opposition to determine which of their candidates gets to run. Good thing that never happens in our universe.
You too, huh?
There is going to be a reckoning…
Whenever we feel free to laugh at democrats for keeping Debbie Wasserperson-Schultz at the helm, we should remember we are following a path of crumbs laid down by Rinse Penis.
There’s something fishy about this Anchovy feller.
Did you get the feeling that the CNBC moderators were purposely neglecting the real issues of the day because they know that their flat candidate (Hillary Rodham Cackle) would require some bas relief questions?
Not many listen to the debate, but the MSM can choose their highlights and report as “news”, some of the silly stuff. No MSM I’ve seen showed that Harwood lied about Rubio’s tax plan.
As with Hillary’s testimony, it is all about “presentation”, not substance. So they try to present Republicans as clowns by asking clown questions, man. But Hillary probably gets her questions approved in advance, even on Colbert.
Can’t watch the video (above) of Ted Cruz righteously smiting the totally in-the-tank for the Democrats “moderators” because NBC has blocked it on “copyright grounds.”
Sorry NBC, you have been caught out! Lots of other videos that expose your shenanigans!
I couldn’t watch the show while it happened, though I got some flashes of it through livestreaming commentary at Infowars; unfortunately CNBC didn’t feel it was necessary for non-subscribers to be able to watch a Presidential “debate” (so far there haven’t been any actual debates, just biased reality TV shows.)
Long ago, Presidential Debates were arranged by The League of Women Voters (IIRC) who did a very good job and who tried hard to be unbiased; I think it’s past time to bring that back! I know this country is quickly going 3rd world, but surely we can do better than this entertainment-TV rubbish to help us choose our President!
Eskyman | October 29, 2015 at 1:30 pm
Can’t watch the video (above) of Ted Cruz righteously smiting the totally in-the-tank for the Democrats “moderators” because NBC has blocked it on “copyright grounds.”
Humorously nbsc hasn’t claimed copyright on Marco demolishing boosh over his missing votes. Just watched it on one of the other debate threads here.
Hmmmm. Must be that nbsc just hasn’t found it yet…..(roll eyes gif)
While Cruz took the lead, I thought Christie probably got the best jab in with the comment that “even in New Jersey what you’re doing is called rude” A hard jab that also contains self deprecating humor is always a plus on the campaign trail. More people will remember Christie’s jab than will remember his lousy answer on so called global warming that came with it.
I had the same reaction, snorked a little coffee into my lap on that one.
All of these debates need to be conducted by the ” League of Women Voters.” I don’t understand why the Republicans subject themselves to the ” Enemy,” for these debates ? They need Neutral Moderators.
You don’t ‘understand why the Republicans subject themselves to the enemy’?
They have a history of spineless failures.
(eagle stare, per link below)
“At least with Donald Trump we get a wall!”
No. The League of Women Voters is not now what they once were. They too have become liberal, elitist, and progressive. Have Hannity and Mark Levin moderate. Or have 2 or 3 have an unmoderated discussion. Dr. Carson, Senator Cruz, Senator Rubio, and Donald Trump (ok, that’s 4) sit at a table and hash out issues. They each get a 3-minute, sand-glass timer and need to stop when the sand runs out and wait until their turn comes around again.
CNBC is ashamed of their performance, and so they have blocked the video clip.
It’s clearly fair use here, because CNBC has chosen to make itself the story.
Neo-neocon” “but Cruz was most definitely the leader, the first to go on a lengthy offensive against the moderators.”
Incorrect. Rubio’s labeling of the MSM – including the CNBC moderators – as Hillary’s and the Dem’s ‘largest Super PAC’ preceeded Cruz’ riposte. I favor Cruz over Rubio, but facts is facts.
Henry, it’s double e in in ‘proceed’, but single e in ‘precede’.
You have the same grammer/spell checker that I do! Let’s start a group.
Henry, it is all good. You thought about spelling it this way before you actually spelled it that way, and now you are on the right side of history, and your honorable intentions matter above all else. Myself, as a Henry Hawkins supporter, would list spelling acumen as one of your accomplishments, with or without a spell checker. (Isn’t that racist? I mean isn’t “check” spelled “Czech” and isn’t “Czechers” just Eastern European slang for rough hockey players? Is this a micro-aggression? Why are you hating on the Czechs? Or is this a manifestation of your Slavish attention to detail?)
Geez, now I’ve lost my support of myself. I am SO confused….
“Henry, it’s double e in in ‘proceed’, but single e in ‘precede’.”
This has one “in” two many. So take out an “in”. But ask nicely, since otherwise, taking an “in” out without permission is violating a “yes means yes” policy, somewhere. Just saying.
….isn’t there an “and out” between in and in?
Now I’m dizzy and confused. Stop!
Conspiracy Theory – The Bush campaign, acknowledging this week they’re in trouble announced in advance that they would be going after Rubio in this debate and specified exactly how, by attacking his Senate vote attendance record.
Say what we want about Jeb Bush – and I’ve been hard on him – but he and his team are not dummies and know full well how dumb it is to announce your attack plans publicly and in advance. So, the conspiracy theory….
Did Jeb! do that on purpose knowing his campaign was toast as a way to pass the ‘GOPe favorite’ baton by setting Rubio up to take the colossal counterpunch Rubio delivered? I’m not theorizing Rubio was in on it beforehand – if that were so the Jeb campaign would not have announced the plan publicly, beforehand. Perhaps the drowning Bush campaign hoped to make sure it was Rubio who replaced Bush as the GOPe-preferred nominee instead of Christie or Kasich.
lol … yes, the donor class lieutenant assured Bush they’d cover all campaign debts, but he had to fall on his sword for Rubio. There were probably some family members held captive as well … and some secret deal with Hillary. El Chapo also got some guns out of the deal.
For the life of me, the only hypotheses I can come up with that explain the observation of announcing one’s battle plan details in advance are nuts, but there you go. I guess that’s how you go from Shock ‘N Awe to Is He Out Yet in six short months. Maybe Jeb learned it from Obama, also keen on announcing war plans well in advance so the enemy can prepare.
Actually, NBC has blocked it via YouTube. If somebody has it and downloaded it, they can post it and claim the “fair-use” but YouTube is run by Lefties, so they’re inclined to remove this type of content which makes the Main Stream Morons look bad.
“Many polls are now showing Carson taking the lead. In NONE of them does Trump have anything close to a majority.”
The MSM is doing what they see their job is, that being to decide for us who the Republican nominee is. They’ve been hitting Trump hard for weeks while being comparatively soft on Carson. Relentless propaganda works. They’re also hoping that if they can get Carson on the ballot he’ll switch sides like Colin Powell did.
The MSM would love nothing more than to see Donald Trump win the GOP nomination. Why do you think they’ve been giving him so much more free publicity than any other candidate? He’s where the entertainment is, and that’s all mainstream “news” media is about anymore, entertainment.
Currently, most polls show trump still in the lead.
Amy, the MSM is as afraid of trump as the GOPe is. That free publicity is mostly negative. It just doesn’t work.
I finally found a working link to the video clip.
Ted Cruz is not my favorite, but he said exactly the right thing, and it is important.
Shame on CNBC for trying to bury this.