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Ban on Trophy Hunting Backfires

Ban on Trophy Hunting Backfires

“Blanket trophy hunting bans may make us feel better, but they will only accelerate the slaughter.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA

When the world was in an uproar over the killing of Cecil the Lion, we noted that responsible trophy hunting was important to many African economies and could be a responsible conservation tool because it created incentives for local communities not to kill endangered wildlife.

But in the disgust with the killing of Cecil the Lion by luring him off a nature preserve, calls to ban all trophy hunting disregarded all facts.

So this report from The NY Times is hardly surprising. While it’s not about Cecil and his aftermath, it is about bans on trophy hunting, A Hunting Ban Saps a Village’s Livelihood

Lions have been coming out of the surrounding bush, prowling around homes and a small health clinic, to snatch goats and donkeys from the heart of this village on the edge of one of Africa’s great inland deltas. Elephants, too, are becoming frequent, unwelcome visitors, gobbling up the beans, maize and watermelons that took farmers months to grow.

Since Botswana banned trophy hunting two years ago, remote communities like Sankuyo have been at the mercy of growing numbers of wild animals that are hurting livelihoods and driving terrified villagers into their homes at dusk.

The hunting ban has also meant a precipitous drop in income. Over the years, villagers had used money from trophy hunters, mostly Americans, to install toilets and water pipes, build houses for the poorest, and give scholarships to the young and pensions to the old.

Calls to curb trophy hunting across Africa have risen since a lion in Zimbabwe, named Cecil by researchers tracking it, was killed in July by an American dentist. Several airlines have stopped transporting trophies from hunts, and lawmakers in New Jersey have introduced legislation that would further restrict their import into the United States.

But in Sankuyo and other rural communities living near the wild animals, many are calling for a return to hunting. African governments have also condemned, some with increasing anger, Western moves to ban trophy hunting.

Richard Leakey noted the role trophy hunting can play:

If you fly over parts of Tsavo today—and I challenge anyone to do so, if you have the eyes for it – you can see lines of snares set out in funnel traps that extend four or five miles.

Tens of thousands of animals are being killed annually for the meat business. Carnivores are being decimated in the same snares and discarded. I am not a propagandist on this issue, but when my friends say we are very concerned that hunting will be reintroduced in Kenya, let me put it to you: hunting has never been stopped in Kenya, and there is more hunting in Kenya today than at any time since independence. (Thousands) of animals are being killed annually with no control. Snaring, poisoning, and shooting are common things.

So when you have a fear of debate about hunting, please don’t think there is no hunting. Think of a policy to regulate it, so that we can make it sustainable. That is surely the issue, because an illegal crop, an illegal market is unsustainable in the long term, whatever it is. And the market in wildlife meat is unsustainable as currently practiced, and something needs to be done.

-Richard Leakey, in an address to the Strathmore Business School, Nairobi

Commenting on the Leakey quote in the aftermath of Cecil, Glen Martin wrotes in the UC-Berkeley alumni magazine, Lionizing Cecil Makes Us Feel Good, But a Trophy Hunting Ban Will Accelerate Slaughter:

Ultimately, then, the African wildlife crisis is a crisis of misperception. Conservation has been subsumed by animal rights. These are not, however, the same things.

Individual animals—most recently Cecil and Jericho—have become more important in the Age of Social Media than species stability, habitat preservation, and pragmatic if uncomfortable policies that would actually encourage the preservation of wildlife. This is understandable: It’s easier to scream in outrage over the killing of a highly charismatic lion with a cute name, sign a Change.org petition, and move on to posting selfies, than it is to actually investigate the deep forces behind the African wildlife holocaust.

But emoting over Cecil isn’t going to save the African lion. The African lion is not the Lion King, just as Daffy Duck is not representative of a typical mallard in a North American marsh. We don’t live in a cartoon, and our problems are not solved by anthropomorphizing wildlife.

Blanket trophy hunting bans may make us feel better, but they will only accelerate the slaughter.

Now all the Cecils in these communities are at risk of the meat market, or frustrated farmers and villagers.

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Comments

hunters…some of the world’s greatest conservationists……

Is anyone surprised?

That’s the progressive mindset. They’re driven by a compulsive desire to regulate, especially the things they don’t understand.
And it works the same every time. Unintended Consequences will come to bite them in the arse.
But worry not. They’ll find somebody else to blame.

    Valerie in reply to Exiliado. | September 14, 2015 at 3:51 pm

    Progressives are very much anti-intellectuals. They are also anti-science.

    The purpose of science is not the use of one’s intellect to study natural phenomena, but to provide support for the Revolution. Scientific inquiry just does not bend that way.

Only idiots would not understand this intuitively.

Human beings are not going to live in “harmony” with carnivores and massive herbivores that eat them and their hard-grown crops unless there is some countervailing value to doing so. Certainly no one on the upper West side of Manhattan would do so, either. (I’m open to evidence to the contrary, video would be appreciated.)

Even more certainly poachers are not going to defer poaching exotic and rare animals for wealthy foreign payers unless there are armed and trained men prepared to stop them from doing so–and that, too, takes money that is not in great supply where these exotic and rare animals live.

A handful of wealthy Americans paying vast sums to lawfully hunt a small and controlled number of exotic game is the only practical means of preserving the large majority of these rare and exotic animals.

But of course wealthy Americans are a thing to be hated, so to hell with the animals.

–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Andrew Branca. | September 14, 2015 at 4:21 am

    To me it also begs the question of how many of those “armed men” would be forced to kill the very animals that they were there to protect? Or how many of those would be poachers themselves?

Loss of the trophy market means more trophy animals are killed (though not for trophies).

When a family of leopards moves into a rancher’s territory, he has a valuable resource; he can lease the hunting rights, and after the hunt the juveniles are still left, ensuring next year’s supply of trophy animals. He’ll lose a few cows to the leopards, but because there’s so much money in trophy hunting, the balance sheet is in the rancher’s favor.

But if he can’t lease hunting rights, the leopards are just pests which prey on his cattle. So he and his ranch hands clean out the whole den with shotguns. No leopards, no trophies, no money; but at least his cash crop is safe.

This dynamic has been understood for years, but that doesn’t make a dent in the mental processes of the Perpetual Outrage types.

    platypus in reply to tom swift. | September 14, 2015 at 1:36 am

    Succinct excellent summary of the salient points. Kudos.

    (note – the adjectives and adverbs above also keep leftists confused)

“Is anyone surprised?

“That’s the progressive mindset. They’re driven by a compulsive desire to regulate, especially the things they don’t understand.”

^^^^This^^^^

The intersection of multiple activism fronts leaves no oxygen for rational thought.

It’s ironic that Leftists use the conservation argument to support selective-child policy in order to preserve their environment, but argue passionately against the application of pro-choice doctrine to control lion and other predator populations.

    n.n in reply to n.n. | September 13, 2015 at 11:41 pm

    I should revise “Leftists”, since the pro-choice doctrine has been adopted by a class of people far more diverse than just progressive liberals, where the orientation of each group tends to follow its own prevailing winds/special interests.

    platypus in reply to n.n. | September 14, 2015 at 1:45 am

    Whoever downvoted you is a _________ (fill in with the pejorative of your choice).

Yummy…. Social Justice Warriors, the other white meat.

I thought I’d provide a couple of links why banning trophy hunting dooms all the most dangerous animals, and that includes herbivores like elephant and buffalo, to extinction. I hunted elephant with Charleton McCallum safaris about 6 years ago.

http://www.cmsafaris.com/

Click on the Dande Anti-Poaching Unit link and see all they do to preserve the wildlife. They not only hire their own communal game scouts to patrol, which provides jobs, but they keep the National Park Service scouts on the job because they have only have one government vehicle which is old, broken down, and are only infrequently provided with their pay or fuel. So the safari operators repair and fuel up the vehicle, provide the NPS scouts with cash bonuses, etc.

This is one factor. The former president of the World Wildlife Fund in South Africa was adamant that trophy hunting must continue. He pointed out that Kruger National Park gets a million visitors a year, and South Africa is a fairly well developed nation. Yet they couldn’t afford to pay their rangers without trophy hunting fees.
Many African countries have a two-tiered system of wildlife areas. The national parks and then game reserves. In other African countries it’s only the national parks and then private land, such as South Africa and Namibia. generally in countries that use the two-tiered system the land area of the game reserves far exceeds that of the national parks. The game reserves are not suitable for tourists for a variety of reasons. The only way to keep them as wild areas is through trophy hunting. Specifically trophy hunting for animals wealthy hunters will pay tens of thousands of dollars to hunt such as lions and elephants. You can arrange a fairly inexpensive hunt for non-dangerous game such as antelope, but you need a lot more hunters and the return on each hunter is much lower. So the bottom line is say goodbye to most of that game reserve land if trophy hunting for lions or elephants is banned. The people won’t put up with it, and see it in their best interest to convert it to marginal subsistence farming land. It only benefits them economically to keep it as wild land if a few somebodies are willing to pay enormous trophy fees. “Cecille” really should have gone for over $100k, not $50k, another sign everything wasn’t on the up and up. And in Africa, that’s real money.

What is going on in Botswana is not unprecedented. Kenya banned all hunting there in 1977. So the predictable happened.

http://newsroom.wildlifedirect.org/2010/05/14/kenya%E2%80%99s-lions-on-the-brink-of-extinction-three-more-lions-poisoned-in-masai-mara/

That was five years ago; at the time organizations like WildlifeDirect were predicting Kenya’s lions would be extinct in five to ten years. I’d be surprised if they aren’t extinct by now you can find any outside a national park, and more than a few inside them.

Not that the article mentions Dr. Richard Leakey, who at the time the article was written was chairman of WildlifeDirect. I met him a few years earlier shortly after he had resigned as head of Kenya’s Wildlife Conservation and Management Department. Where? At the Dallas Safari Club convention. He recognized the importance of trophy hunting to conservation, particularly to conserving the lion, and he and some other Kenyan politicians were lobbying their government to resume legal hunting. But unfortunately the Bambi crowd would rather see lions and other African wildlife go extinct just so they can feel a cheap, false moral superiority to hunters like that Minnesota dentist.

If you wish to read a longer, slightly different version of what Dr. Leakey has to say above, this article in African Hunter Magazine is very good.

http://www.africanhunteronline.com/#!ahc11/c22sy

“Lion Conservation Under Threat – Cecil the Lion The Facts”

If anyone is interested, my one and only elephant hunting experience wasn’t a trophy hunt. It was a Problem Animal Control Hunt in a tribal area along the Omay River in Zimbabwe. At the time the government opened up such hunting to paying foreign hunters because the game scouts were wounding too many animals, and a wounded elephant is a lethal threat. Not that an unwounded elephant isn’t extremely dangerous as well.

If they couldn’t afford to pay their scouts, or to give them diesel for their rickety old Land Rovers, they certainly weren’t going to give them elephant rifle ammo to practice with. That stuff is worth more than gold in Africa.

In Zimbabwe for several decades they have had a program called CAMPFIRE. It stands for Community Area Management Program For Indigenous REsources. The locals get a portion of daily fees, license fees, and in my case they got all the meat from the elephant who was eating all their corn. Had it been a trophy hunt they would have gotten a portion of the trophy fee, which is considerable. They also get a vote in how they are going to use their land. There are about five things they can do, but hunting provides 90% of their revenue. Eliminate hunting, and you can see why they’d rather turn it into farmland. Photographers just don’t pay the freight.

    alaskabob in reply to Arminius. | September 14, 2015 at 12:47 am

    As for Cape Buffalo, the present trend in hunting is to go after the old Dugga Boys that are past prime and no longer breeding, but mature bulls worthy of hunting that usually do not have the largest trophy horns that younger breeding bulls may have. They do, however, pack years of survival skills and have proven themselves to be truly “dangerous game”. They are fully able to “punch your ticket” if you make a mistake. Got Adrenalin?

      Arminius in reply to alaskabob. | September 14, 2015 at 1:14 am

      Yes, alaskabob, I know people who won’t hunt anything but the old dugga boys. But hunting bulls in a herd isn’t to be sneered at. It’s not easy sorting one out with all those sharp eyes, ears and sensitive noses.

      But I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t be ashamed to shoot animal that didn’t have a completely hard boss. That’s still a fully mature bull. He’s passed on his genes several times, but he’s still interested in the ladies which is why he’s with the herd. Those dugga boys just get annoyed with the ladies and the kids.

      I got a few details wrong. Namibia does have essentially nature reserves. I know people who have hunted Bushmanland, which is one of the conservancies mentioned in the alumni article. But the private lands, it seems to me, are the real success story. They’re huge as well. And because of hunting it is now more profitable to stock the land with wildlife than to raise sheep. Which I think we can all agree is a good thing.

      Some of those private lands, unfortunately named “hunting farms” because those German speaking farmers didn’t hire a PR firm before coming up with the name, even have rhino on them. Rhino weren’t entirely extinct in Namibia. They still exist in Etosha national park, but now they exist in parts of Namibia where they haven’t been seen in over 100 years.

      Every year the Namibian government offers three permits for old males that are not only past breeding but are so cranky and ill-tempered they are a threat to other rhinos. Particularly young rhinos, which they will kill. Those permits go for 100s of thousands of dollars. A hunter bought one for $386k.

      Naturally the animal rights groups want to shut that down because according to their own lofty morals, which they would impose on the rest of us, that’s just wrong. Naturally the Namibians are appalled because that’s tantamount to saying they’d rather see no Rhinos outside of Etosha then let them have a ton of money that will go to propagating more rhinos.

      The Scimitar Horned Oryx is extinct in it’s wild Saharan range. You know where it’s not only abundant, but you can hunt them? Texas ranches. Naturally, the animal rights activists want to shut that down, too. I guess they’d rather see no Scimitar Horned Oryx and other extinct-in-the-wild or extremely threatened antelope anywhere in the world than to allow hunting. Which is the only reason those antelope exist anywhere outside of few inbred specimens in zoos.

        alaskabob in reply to Arminius. | September 14, 2015 at 2:05 pm

        Sometimes the Dugga Boys do rejoin the herd and this is how I got mine. Departing a little from the thread, sheep hunting in which only full curl Rams are taken is a good example of a balance with nature as the Rams are within a year or two of dying … usually can’t keep iupwith nutrition and genes already passed on. The word always knocked around by the left… Is fully practiced by ethical hunting …. sustainability .

And then there is this:
Walking safari guide protected tourists and was killed by charging lion in Zimbabwean park
(Cecil the Lion’s park…..)

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/08/26/guide-mauled-by-lion-in-zimbabwe-died-protecting-tourists

    alaskabob in reply to Floridamom. | September 14, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    Prior to traveling into the Zambezi Valley to hunt, I spent time at Victoria Falls and went to an elephant conservancy to ride elephants. Leading the tourists on their elephants was a armed walker up front. Rephrasing a common point, when seconds count the police or game control are hours away. The guide in this case, and tourists in others, died when the reality of nature burst their bubble-wrapped perception of the rule of fang and claw. Being a victim of civilized society gets one free this and that… in Nature being a victim gets you invited to lunch….once.

    Arminius in reply to Floridamom. | September 14, 2015 at 6:21 pm

    Zimbabwe made this change in regulations for Mana Pools National Park (completely different part of the country from “Cecille’s” park) in May:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/travel/ct-trav-0524-world-watch-20150520-story.html

    “Lion attacks mean no more going it alone in Zimbabwe park”

    Since May visitors have to hire an armed game ranger. This line caught my eye:

    “Although tourist deaths in the region are rare, some visitors have disappeared or were killed by lions in recent years…”

    Why? Because it’s not especially rare for locals to get killed outside the park boundaries. There was a lot of nonsense written about poor “Cecil” as if it were relevant, such as he was collared and he “lured” outside the park.

    Totally meaningless. It is entirely legal to shoot a lion with a radio collar. And lions leave parks all the time to kill livestock and sometimes people. Which is why when people in Zimbabwe were asked what they thought about the dentist killing “Cecil” their first reaction was, “Great! One less lion.” They generally got angry when they found out us first worlders were outraged he had killed the lion, as they think their lives should matter more than a lion’s.

    Quinn Swales had been a professional guide for over 20 years. The Zimbabwe professional hunters and guides course is extremely tough and requires an extensive apprenticeship. In many ways you can compare to it to becoming an M.D. But it also has a bit of a cross with a special forces training considering the bush and marksmanship skills they are required to demonstrate. The lion got up and started walking toward the group as soon as he saw them. When he got too close they started yelling. That didn’t stop him so Mr. Swales threw a “bear bang” (large firework, almost a flash grenade, normally used to scare bears) and that worked. The lion started walking away at an angle that made it appear he was heading back to his pride. But then he turned and was on Mr. Swales like lightning.

    1. Park lions get habituated to cars but they still view people on foot as a threat. 2. Your rifle will not always save you. You may not be able to get a shot off even if you are as highly proficient as Quinn Swales, and even if you do get a fatal shot off the lion can still get to you and kill you before it dies.

    They are extremely dangerous animals, hunting them is dangerous, and I can’t stand the animal rights types who have ridden in Land Rovers through African parks who think they have learned anything about lions.

This is something I’ve said since the beginning of this farce. No hunting = no lions. The hunting helps preserve the herd.

It is happening in the U.S. also. Wolves and mountain lions being reintroduced.
While some hunting is allowed there are a lot of places where the anti hunting idiots (peta and the ilk) file lawsuit after lawsuit to halt the hunting.
They’ve tried to stop bear hunting state by state (divide and conquer) or to alter the means of hunting so as to reduce the kills as much as possible.
If I could transplant those carnivores it’d be in the big liberal cities of N.Y., Washington, Boston, basically every large city in California etc. Let them live with those carnivores stalking their kids in their back yards.
Hunter pay for conservation through license sales, taxes on hunting gear (Pittman/Robinson) and with groups banding together to improve the habitat for their special animal or bird. I doubt you’d see even 10% of what we pay being donated by the “animal rights” groups to improve anything other than their paycheck.

I don’t want to say anything from the fact that “Cecil” was killed illegally. That’s why the property owner and the professional hunter (PH) have been charged. To kill a lion legally on private property the owner must have a quota for a lion, and then the PH must have a lion license. The property owner did not have a quota, and the PH did not have a license for that property. He apparently had a license for a different property or area, so clearly the plan was to kill a lion illegally on one property, then haul the lion elsewhere and claim they killed it legally there.

That’s what made the radio collar a problem. There was no way they could claim to have killed “Cecil” somewhere else if it remained on his neck as he was being tracked by satellite. That’s why they attempted to destroy it. Which gave our know-nothing press the impression that it’s somehow wrong to kill collared lions at all.

The dentist may or may not be in trouble depending on if they can prove he was in on the scheme. I believe he must have been, but I don’t know if they can prove it. If they can then he’s in a lot of trouble both in Zimbabwe and here.

There’s nothing wrong with hunting lions. There’s just something wrong with some people, who will cheat at anything.

    ConradCA in reply to Arminius. | September 15, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    The dentist payed $51,000 as a trophy fee for the lion. He didn’t know that the guides didn’t have a permit. In fact as Zimbabwe is a corrupt lawless country ruled by a fascist racist dictator no one know if the guides had a permit or if they are victims of the government.

      Arminius in reply to ConradCA. | September 15, 2015 at 4:26 pm

      There a few reasons why I think the good dentist was in on it.

      Hunting in Africa is expensive; you do your due diligence. And I never spent but a fraction of what Dr. Palmer spent.

      He wouldn’t have known if the landowner had a lion on quota. But the hunter always knows what licenses he or she has purchased. The PH could not have had a license to shoot a lion on that property if there wasn’t one on quota. So depending on what you mean by permit, he would have known at least part of the answer. I always knew what licenses I had purchased, if a special license was required. As I recall, the first day in camp I signed a lot of paperwork. It was kind of lie buying a car.

      You seem to have some misconceptions about Zimbabwe. Mugabe is definitely corrupt but hunting in Zimbabwe is not as lawless as you seem to think. If it were as unregulated as you think you’d never be able to import a trophy such as elephant or leopard. The US government monitors African countries and if they can’t prove that things are on the up and up, then no import permit (or exemption from the permit requirement). And if Americans can’t get import their trophies, they won’t hunt in Zimbabwe. And Zimbabwe wants that cash.

      http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-import-leopard-elephant-sport-hunted-trophy-2012.pdf

      An essential part of the scheme was what is known as “quota transfer.” That is, shoot the lion on the private property on the outskirts of Hwange National Park, then claim the lion was shot elsewhere where there was a quota and consequently a license available. There is absolutely no way they could have completed the quota transfer without Dr. Palmer’s knowledge.

      According to the court filings Dr. Palmer and his PH Theo Bronkhurst shot the lion at night over bait. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Baiting is one of the most common ways to hunt big cats, and in Zimbabwe it’s legal to shoot at night. But then they cut off the satellite tracking collar and tried to destroy it.

      Here’s a picture of Dr. Palmer posing with “Cecil” in daylight, without the collar. So it appears to me this is part of the quota transfer scheme.

      http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6177652.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/PAYDr-Walter-Palmer.jpg

      Finally, the kicker for me is that he barely escaped a Lacey Act violation in 2008 for poaching a bear in Wisconsin by doing the exact same thing. He had bought a bear license for one zone, then shot the bear 40 miles outside that zone but claimed otherwise. Then he lied repeatedly to USF&W agents about the origin of the bear. A Lacey Act violation is a five year felony. He was allowed to plead down to one count of lying to a federal agent and was convicted of a misdemeanor and sentenced to a year probation.

      I would never have done what Dr. Palmer did. Especially overseas. I’m not going to say what country or animal I was hunting, or even what continent, but a professional hunter once asked me to shoot an animal outside of legal shooting hours. I flat refused. Had I come as close to a Lacey Act felony as Dr. Palmer I would have made double plus sure to do my due diligence, and I certainly would have known what licenses I had and where I could legally hunt.

      Dr. Palmer didn’t commit a Lacey Act violation because the Zimbwean authorities seized the trophy. Apparently Dr. Palmer tried to ship it. And again, there’s no way he could not have known where he shot the lion as opposed to where everyone had to say where he shot the lion.

      But my suspicions are one thing, proving it is another. That’s why the feds seized all his computers, his phones, no doubt documents related to arranging the hunt, and who knows what else. If they can prove he knew about the scheme then he’s in a lot of trouble.

        Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 15, 2015 at 7:00 pm

        “Hunting in Africa is expensive; you do your due diligence. And I never spent but a fraction of what Dr. Palmer spent.”

        Well your first of all you are obviously ignorant to some of the actual facts in this case. The reason he paid that much is because he “purchased” the trip during a charity auction to help an Elk conservation group. So he didn’t pat that much, he got the trip for a reasonable price and the rest was to charity. So no he did not “overpay” or “Pay more to hunt illegally” as you would like to imply.

        Also, just because you don’t pay that much to hunt in Africa doesn’t mean that there aren’t credible reasons to pay more, such as accommodations while hunting. Much like any other vacation you can pretty much end up paying what you want to pay. Nice try though.

        “I always knew what licenses I had purchased, if a special license was required.”

        Oh, so you actually went to the office and got the license yourself?

        “As I recall, the first day in camp I signed a lot of paperwork. It was kind of lie buying a car.”

        Oh wait, no you didn’t and much like buying a care you most likely didn’t actually read 98% of that ream of paper that you were signing, much like I didn’t on my hunts. I trusted the people that I had paid to do what I had paid them to do. So basically you had no clue what you were actually permitted for, you could have had a permit to hunt Dragons and wouldn’t have known it.

        “but hunting in Zimbabwe is not as lawless as you seem to think.”

        No one implied that “hunting was corrupt” or “lawless”. However, if you believe that the Zim Government wouldn’t have made that permit disappear once they found out that this was gonna be embarrassing international news, well then I have some ocean side property in the middle of a desert I would like to sell you.

        “part of the scheme”

        Oh, you mean that scheme that there is zero evidence actually existed?

        “There is absolutely no way they could have completed the quota transfer without Dr. Palmer’s knowledge.”

        Complete and utter fantasy.

        “But then they cut off the satellite tracking collar and tried to destroy it.”

        Of course you have proof that Dr. Palmer was involved in the attempted destruction? Or even knew the collar existed? Because when I hunt they won’t let me approach the kill until they ensure that it is completely safe. Which is more than enough time for someone to remove the collar before Dr. Palmer ever saw it. Which would explain why he is saying that he didn’t know until the end of the hunt.

        “Finally, the kicker for me is that he barely escaped a Lacey Act violation in 2008 for poaching a bear in Wisconsin by doing the exact same thing.”

        So of course he must have done something wrong here, I mean anyone who makes a mistake in the past and pays for it is obviously going to do the same thing again, right?

        “I would never have done what Dr. Palmer did.”

        Which is what exactly? Because so far all you have is suspicion, unsupported accusations, and hyperbole.

        “If they can prove he knew about the scheme then he’s in a lot of trouble.”

        LOL, the only reason they opened any investigation is because it was such a big media frenzy. This “investigation” will go about as far as the Zim Governments “extradition request”. Give it a couple of more months and there will be a press release on a Friday afternoon that the media will bury that basically says; “We know he is evil very much bad….but we can’t prove anything so investigation closed.”

I won’t respond to everything since you don’t seem to understand anything I wrote. For instance the words “due diligence,” the difference between “implied” and “stated,” and “quota transfer.” The latter of which, if it were pure fantasy, neither the landowner who didn’t have a lion quota and the PH who therefore didn’t have a lion license would not have cases pending before the court. But they do, so it’s not.

But just a few of your finer points.

“Oh wait, no you didn’t and much like buying a care you most likely didn’t actually read 98% of that ream of paper that you were signing, much like I didn’t on my hunts. I trusted the people that I had paid to do what I had paid them to do. So basically you had no clue what you were actually permitted for, you could have had a permit to hunt Dragons and wouldn’t have known it.”

No, I knew what I had paid for. And I read every bit of it. Earlier I mentioned a PH invited me to shoot something after hours. It was a leopard. I was in a country where you could kill leopard as vermin by any means, day or night. But to export it as a trophy you had to shoot it during daylight hours which was a certain amount of time before sunrise to a certain amount of time after sunset.

It was written on the back of the leopard permit.

So you take your chances and don’t read what you’re signing. Perhaps we’ll be reading about you someday in some high profile Lacey Act violation. Claiming you had no idea what was going on.

You won’t be reading about me. I make a point of reading what I’m signing.

And I don’t care if Zimbabwe made their copies of the paperwork disappear, I would have what I needed to get the trophies out of the country and into the US.

“However, if you believe that the Zim Government wouldn’t have made that permit disappear once they found out that this was gonna be embarrassing international news, well then I have some ocean side property in the middle of a desert I would like to sell you.”

Earlier you said no one implied hunting in Zimbabwe was corrupt. Yet here you are implying that hunting in Zimbabwe is corrupt. More reason to hold on to your copies of the paperwork, friend, so the corrupt wildlife officials can’t make it all disappear. See, my Dad taught me not to ever let myself be put in the position where I’d be buying ocean side property in the middle of the desert.

Also, how do you get your trophies through customs and USF&W inspection, or your taxidermist for you? Go up to the counter and say, “Trust me, I have no way to prove it but that box there is mine, and everything inside was legally sport hunted. No, I can’t prove that either. But trust me.”

Added bonus: Did you know that there are a number of people in Zimbabwe on a US government banned list? So it’s illegal for a US citizen, US corporation, or US legal resident to do business with them including to hunt on their property, and a number of those people have bought up or just taken over someone else’s property around Hwange National Parks. Even the PHs that hunt on their property are subject to the prohibition. Do you even know how to do your due diligence and find this out? Or are you just going to trust people, because it’s on you as far as the Lacey Act violation goes.

“’I would never have done what Dr. Palmer did.’

Which is what exactly? Because so far all you have is suspicion, unsupported accusations, and hyperbole.”

Actually, Gremlin, I was referring to the bear poaching he did in Wisconsin. For which we have a misdemeanor conviction for lying to a federal agent, and it’s part of the public record.

“Had I come as close to a Lacey Act felony as Dr. Palmer I would have made double plus sure to do my due diligence, and I certainly would have known what licenses I had and where I could legally hunt.”

So for that I have a bit more than suspicion, unsupported accusations, and hyperbole.

One more thing.

“Of course you have proof that Dr. Palmer was involved in the attempted destruction? Or even knew the collar existed? Because when I hunt they won’t let me approach the kill until they ensure that it is completely safe. Which is more than enough time for someone to remove the collar before Dr. Palmer ever saw it. Which would explain why he is saying that he didn’t know until the end of the hunt.”

We have a different view of hunting ethics, I suppose. When I hunt, I’m the one who makes sure it’s dead. I don’t rely on anyone else to make sure it’s “completely safe.” Sort of takes the sport out of dangerous game hunting, don’t you think, to have someone else take the risk for you?

I’ve only hunted two of Africa’s big five. Leopard, which I didn’t get because a) I knew what was legal and illegal so b) I didn’t take the shot after legal hunting hours. I’d rather not have a leopard than to take one unethically.

And elephant, which went down where I shot him. But even though he was down he wasn’t out. So I (and my PH) walked around him and I put the coup de grace through the top of his skull into the brain. And no, it wasn’t completely safe as he was trying to turn his body around to grab me with his trunk. But he was my elephant. If the PH had done it, that would have been the PH’s elephant.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 16, 2015 at 6:18 pm

    First of all, I didn’t imply that all hunting in zim was corrupt, I said in this one very public and embarrassing situation it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if the completely corrupt government didn’t make permits disappear and rail road the land owner and PH. Please work on your reading comprehension it will make our discussions much easier on the both of us.

    As far as the PH letting you approach, well its your arse, but my suggestion would be to find a more professional agency to use who is more concerned about your safety before you get your face ripped off by a large dangerous animal.

    We actually don’t have a different view of hunting ethics, I have not taken shots suggested by PH’s in the past because I couldn’t see what he could see. Also, there is a huge difference between knowing what hours you can shoot between and being involved in a scheme or trying to destroy a GPS collar. Though I do appreciate you showing the weakness of your argument by implying that I must be and illegal or unethical hunter.

    As far as using the court cases against the PH and the land owner the only rational response I can think of is; “hehehehehehe, hahahahahaha, lol, lmao!” If you can’t tell a set up when you see one, well then I can’t help you with that.

    “Also, how do you get your trophies through customs and USF&W inspection, or your taxidermist for you?”

    Once again we run into that reading comprehension problem. I don’t hunt for trophies, I only hunt animals that can be donated to local villages or agencies and I always accompany the kills/meat to their destinations to make sure it is done. I have been a hunter all of my life and I have never seen the need to display animal parts in my home or lodge. Frankly, I think most trophy hunters are trying to make up for some physical short comings. So I have never had to worry about export.

    I got to go to Africa the first time as a gift from the parents of the girl I was dating and her father took me on the hunt. He warned me that once you have been there you will leave a part of yourself in Africa and take a part of Africa with you and he was so right, I fell in love with the place and go back as often as I can afford.

    Basically, regardless of your baseless accusations there is no proof that Dr. Palmer did anything wrong, nor that he is doing anything but telling the truth. His past indiscretions are not evidence of wrong doing in this case.

    I have taken tagged animals in the past and am well aware of how it is handled both in the states and on the continent and you basically leave it to the PH to handle.

    From what I can tell you seem to have very limited experience in hunting in Africa, I will be going back next summer. My suggestion would be to find a better company and if you are smart avoid Zim for the next few years. I will personally never go back to Zim after this little shaft job and have already changed my plans for next year, since there is nothing in Zim that I can’t find elsewhere.

    Hey, I think I found the place you may have gotten most of your experience.

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/250200

“I don’t hunt for trophies, I only hunt animals that can be donated to local villages or agencies and I always accompany the kills/meat to their destinations to make sure it is done. I have been a hunter all of my life and I have never seen the need to display animal parts in my home or lodge. Frankly, I think most trophy hunters are trying to make up for some physical short comings. So I have never had to worry about export.”

I’ve always wondered about people whose first thought runs toward “physical shortcomings.” I’m not wired that way so I think that says more about you than it does about me. But as far as trophies go the people I’ve donated the meat to never minded if I kept the antlers or the horns. They weren’t going to eat those anyway.

Generally I eat what I kill myself, though. And I’m not a trophy hunter. I don’t try for some “book” animal. But I will keep the horns, the antlers, sometimes the hides, and I don’t really care what you think about it. I can hang it on my wall or I can always make knife handles. I don’t like to waste any part of the animals I shoot.

“…From what I can tell you seem to have very limited experience in hunting in Africa…”

No, Gremlin, I said I only hunted two of the big five. There’s more to hunt in Africa than that.

“As far as the PH letting you approach, well its your arse, but my suggestion would be to find a more professional agency to use who is more concerned about your safety before you get your face ripped off by a large dangerous animal.”

Gremlin, this made me chuckle. I hate to brea it to you but if they want you to stay behind it’s not your safety they’re worried about.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 17, 2015 at 4:21 am

    I am glad if gave you a “chuckle” all that goes to prove is that you are arrogant, stupid and dangerous. I would never hunt with someone like you.

    “No, Gremlin, I said I only hunted two of the big five. There’s more to hunt in Africa than that.”

    No my feeling that you are inexperienced in hunting on the continent, if not just outright lying, I am more inclined to believe the latter at this point, comes from your obvious ignorance about hunting in Africa, not any one statement you made. Sorry if I confused you.

    “I’ve always wondered about people whose first thought runs toward “physical shortcomings.”

    and I have always wondered about people who automatically think of their penis when someone says that. There are a great many other shortcomings that can be compensated for.

    “Generally I eat what I kill myself, though.”

    Really, how is that since the US prohibits you from bringing the meat back into the states?

    “I don’t like to waste any part of the animals I shoot.”

    Neither do I, but since the locals can use the hides and antlers for the exact same things, and many other things, I donate all of it.

    If you do actually hunt in Africa I hope that you are the one that pays for your arrogance and not someone else on the hunt with you.

“Neither do I, but since the locals can use the hides and antlers for the exact same things, and many other things, I donate all of it.”

You are very emotional, aren’t you? Try to collect yourself and answer one simple question.

Name an African animal with antlers.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 19, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    Yes, I realize that African animal generally have horns. Horns, antlers, Pointy head sticks, do the semantics really matter that much to you.?

    As far as emotion all I have done is point out the opposite arguments to give Dr. Palmer the benefit of the doubt. He may very well have known, but since I believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, I will give him that benefit. Besides, if there was even the mildest proof that he could be convicted of a crime this administration would have already had him charged, just to score points.

“‘No, Gremlin, I said I only hunted two of the big five. There’s more to hunt in Africa than that.’

No my feeling that you are inexperienced in hunting on the continent, if not just outright lying…”

My feeling is Dr. Palmer had to be in on the scheme. And as I’ve said many times, that’s just my feeling. I don’t know if anyone can prove it.

Why is it OK for you to operate on your feelings (me lying about Africa) and not OK for me to operate on mine? Please advise.

“’Generally I eat what I kill myself, though.’

Really, how is that since the US prohibits you from bringing the meat back into the states?”

I’m sorry if I’m confusing you. Generally I hunt in the US. Most of the time in my home state. Hence, generally I don’t have to deal with laws prohibiting me from bringing my meat into my kitchen. Hence, generally I eat what I kill.

When I have a surplus I give it to a food bank. I’ve done it form Alaska to Maryland. I’ve done it in Africa too, at least in whatever form necessary to hand over the meat. Please look at what I’ve said and tell the voices in your head that I have never claimed I have brought meat back from Africa. Horns and pictures, yes.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 19, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    Well, firstly, my feeling is based on empirical evidence, (i.e. your written posts here), which make me question your experience, since your experience hunting in Africa is somehow very different from mine and pretty much every other hunter I know who has hunted in Africa.

    You did not just have a feeling, you have convicted Dr. Palmer hands down, based on nothing. There is no evidence other than his presence to say he committed any crime.

    The only reason this was ever news is because he happened to kill a soft cuddly Apex Predator that some ignorant boobs had tried to, and are still trying to, anthropomorphize. Like all the boo hoo’s of how now some other lion will kill and eat Clives, or whatever his name was, cubs. Say it ain’t so, you mean the new Alpha lion will do the exact same thing that Clive did when he took over the pride! OMG!

    I would say most likely from what I read in your posts, you have hunted in Africa, once maybe twice, and have a tendency to embellish a bit.

    I don’t feel bad about being confused, since we weren’t discussing hunting in the states, why would I even consider your hunting practices in the states? Of course you eat the meat you kill here, unless you are a moron, which frankly you don’t strike me as being a moron. Just a bit misguided.

    Also, I never said you brought meat back from Africa, since I knew it was impossible, nice try though. What I did was point out the flaw in your statement. Also, that is the second time you have made a personal attack on me, and you are asking me why “I” am so emotional?

“I am glad if gave you a “chuckle” all that goes to prove is that you are arrogant, stupid and dangerous. I would never hunt with someone like you.”

Well, at least I’ve accomplished something.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 19, 2015 at 10:28 pm

    What, you have accomplished that you won’t have to hunt with someone there is basically zero chance you would ever hunt with anyway? Congratulations!

“The only reason this was ever news is because he happened to kill a soft cuddly Apex Predator that some ignorant boobs had tried to, and are still trying to, anthropomorphize. Like all the boo hoo’s of how now some other lion will kill and eat Clives, or whatever his name was, cubs. Say it ain’t so, you mean the new Alpha lion will do the exact same thing that Clive did when he took over the pride! OMG!”

I agree with this. In fact, if you care to review it is because I’ve been saying largely the same thing ever since the story broke that I got involved in the first place.

Lion hunting is not only defendable but vital to the future of hunting in Africa, and therefore to the future of wildlife in Africa. And a bunch of silly arses on social media who had never heard of “Cecil” before in their lives now can’t bear the thought of living now that they know he’s gone.

It’s sick.

But on the flip side I notice a you are singularly incurious. It’s a pretty simple thing. Either there was a lion on quota on that property or there wasn’t. It’s cut and dried. No lion quota, no lion license. No lion hunt.

It sure looks like the Zimbabwean authorities have concluded there was no lion quota. Which brings us to the question of the Minnesota dentist. Yes, I’ve convicted the doctor in my own mind, and I’ve laid out the reasons. I do not see how you square that circle without the doctor’s involvement.

So here is another bee to put in your bonnet. Many people in Zimbabwe suspect that this was one of many off-the-books hunts facilitated by corrupt National Parks officials.

There. I said it.

It would have looked legit. All right people would have been paid off, all the right paperwork was provided.

If this turns out to be the case, if the USG can prove it, then the good doctor is looking at felony of violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

I’m still waiting for an answer. Do you know how to do your due diligence? How do you find out if a PH is or is working for an individual on the Zimbabwe banned list, which would make you guilty of a Lacey act violation if you were to run afoul of it.

It’s a simple question.Even someone who has only hunted Africa once or twice should be able to answer.

    Gremlin1974 in reply to Arminius. | September 21, 2015 at 12:22 am

    I just prefer to take the man at his word. Now it may have been an off the books hunt, true, but that doesn’t mean Dr. Palmer knew it. The reason I think that is because this isn’t a hunt he set up, he won the trip at a charity auction.

    As far as the banned hunters list, if it is the one I think you are talking about then if I remember correctly it is maintained by a section of the Treasury department, on of those obscure offices that know one really knows exist unless you do certain things or need certain information.

    Basically its a list of people and entities that the U.S. says it is illegal for U.S. citizens to do business with.

    As far as my supposed lack of curiosity, well when it comes down to it, it was a freaking lion who was nearing the end of his life anyway? It is no reason to ruin a mans life.

    As far as Zimbabwe’s response well frankly I would trust a Televangelist before I would believe a word anyone in that government said, period. So my thought is that the PH and land owner are being scapegoated. Until that entire government is put down I will always believe the worst of it, period. So frankly I am not that worried about Dr. Palmer being found guilty of a lacey act violation.

    “Not if but when this land owner and PH is found guilty what will your opinion be of this supposed elk hunting charity that auctioned this lion hunt off?”

    I would think they need to do better research on who they deal with. Oh, and there is nothing “supposed” about the Elk Conservation program that the charity auction supported.

    I agree that the PH and Land Owner will be found guilty, not because they actually did anything wrong, but because that is the outcome that will make the officials who have egg on their face right now look better. So I will feel like they have been railroaded, because there is no such thing as Justice in Zimbabwe.

Not if but when this land owner and PH is found guilty what will your opinion be of this supposed elk hunting charity that auctioned this lion hunt off?

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