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PA Nurse Arrested on Gun Charges Given Reprieve

PA Nurse Arrested on Gun Charges Given Reprieve

Original decision denying pre-trial intervention is reversed.

Shaneen Allen has, thankfully, received a reprieve, reports Philly.com.  Allen is the Philadelphia-area nurse who, after being mugged in the course of the odd hours her job demands, sought and obtained a license to carry a concealed firearm.

Philadelphia, of course, is only a bridge-crossing away from New Jersey, a state far more parsimonious in its recognition of our Second Amendment rights.  And that’s where Ms. Allen got into trouble.

While driving in New Jersey, just over the Delaware, Allen was pulled over for an “unsafe lane change.” In obtaining her concealed carry permit she had been instructed that if she were ever pulled over while in possession of her licensed firearm she should inform the officer of both her license and her handgun.  Perhaps good advice for someone possessing a Pennsylvania license and pulled over in Pennsylvania.

Unfortunately, unlike driver’s licenses, concealed carry permits are not automatically recognized by other states.  There must generally be some formal agreement in place between the states, or a broad statutory provision allowing for such recognition.

New Jersey has none of these.  As a result, unknown to Allen, her Philadelphia concealed carry permit was worthless in New Jersey. She may as well have not had a permit at all, as far as the Garden State was concerned.

Now, most people in such circumstances who have a clean criminal record, and obviously are not engaged in criminal activity, are put by New Jersey into a pre-trial intervention program.  This is precisely the same program into which the Atlantic City area prosecutor placed football player Ray Rice after a video emerged showing him knocking his wife unconscious with a single punch to the head.  (This despite the fact that acts of domestic violence almost never qualify for pre-trial intervention.)

This same prosecutor, however, decided that the nurse from Philadelphia who made an honest mistake, had an unblemished record, and was the mother of two small children, should be denied pre-trial intervention and under the facts of the case be forced to do the mandatory minimum three years in prison for felony possession of a firearm.  This would also necessarily have cost Allen her nursing career.

It was an outrageous decision, and a lot of static was directed at presumed Presidential-hopeful New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.

Finally, word emerged today that Ms. Allen will be allowed to participate in the pre-trial intervention program after all.  One wonders what pressure was finally brought to bear to drive this decision, but whatever the case it is the proper result.

–-Andrew, @LawSelfDefense


Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and the author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense, 2nd Edition,” available at the Law of Self Defense blog (autographed copies available) and Amazon.com (paperback and Kindle). He also holds Law of Self Defense Seminars around the country, and provides free online self-defense law video lectures at the Law of Self Defense Institute and podcasts through iTunes, Stitcher, and elsewhere.

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Comments

JackRussellTerrierist | September 24, 2014 at 8:03 pm

She shouldn’t even have to do that.

She shouldn’t have been charged at all. The cop should have told her to turn around, go back to PA, and come back to NJ without her gun – or just warned her and let her go.

Disgusting gestapo jerks. NJ is a hellhole.

    BannedbytheGuardian in reply to JackRussellTerrierist. | September 24, 2014 at 9:40 pm

    So it is the policeman’s fault ? Maybe he was not in a position to just say- you go back to PA with that gun.as he would have no guarantee that is what she would do.

    On one hand LI wants States Rights but then they don’t . If she don’t like NJ laws she can stay on the other side . Bridge = NJ . Not hard .

      Scary thought, I almost agreed with you.

      Except, of course, that the 2nd amendment guarantees our nurse the right to own and carry, a right that should be protected across state lines.

      I’m wondering if the DA finally figured out that if he pressed for a conviction, gun rights groups could have helped our nurse appeal on just such grounds, with the result being that the USSC would throw out the NJ law.

        BannedbytheGuardian in reply to stevewhitemd. | September 25, 2014 at 1:10 am

        You need to argue your case in the NJ courts because it looks like it ain’t necessarily so .

        Not my doing babe.

          JackRussellTerrierist in reply to BannedbytheGuardian. | September 25, 2014 at 1:55 am

          That’s about the best non sequitur I’ve seen in weeks.

          The law may not currently be understood to compel states to recognize permits to carry firearms across state lines, but I think that was the good Doctor’s point: That if NJ decided to try to nail this woman to the wall as an example, that the NRA would ride to her rescue, fund an appeal, and fly in Alan Gura and Co. for her defense.

          They then take it all the way to SCOTUS on the theory that, as an incorporated fundamental right (see McDonald v Chicago), the States MUST give full-faith-and-credit to firearms licenses issued by other states (regardless of any “State Public Policy” considerations.

          She really IS the perfect Defendant/Plaintiff for a Federal action: Nurse, Female, Black (African-American, if you prefer), photogenic, prior crime victim, young children.

          Chuck has it right, that is exactly what I’d do if I were in this situation. He’s also correct saying that Ms. Allen is the perfect defendant for such a legal action. Carrying a pistol for personal protection whilst living in a fringe neighborhood? Gosh, that sounds like a few ten million other Americans.

      in this case… yes it is the policeman’s fault.

        BannedbytheGuardian in reply to Aussie. | September 25, 2014 at 1:00 am

        And you know the full correct recourse a NJ Police officer should follow with a reckless lane changer with an unlicensed (instate )gun in her car?

        Let her on her merry way , swerving back to PA ? I don’t think so . I was once picked up by a NJ police car & the officer had to radio in the exact time & miles I was in the car saying – they are stickers for protocol here.

        I’m guessing the police are wired with at least sound recording if not video recording. In this case it cannot be the policeman’s fault because she admits, while being recorded, to breaking NJ law. His choices are to arrest her at this point or face disciplinary actions.

        Please note this is conjecture, if he wasn’t wired then yes he did have the choice to send her home…but as has been pointed out, he has no guarantee that she will do that.

        The real people at fault are the ones who wrote the law and refuse to change it, and that’s where the effort should be focused.

      JackRussellTerrierist in reply to BannedbytheGuardian. | September 25, 2014 at 12:50 am

      And so damn what if she didn’t follow the cop’s hypothetical suggestion that she return to PA and come back without her gun? At that point, she’d know she was risking a lot (shouldn’t be, but would be) and rolling the dice. Since she was smart enough to get a gun, qualify, and get her permit, I’m choosing to assume she’s smart enough to know she caught a break and would return to PA, secure her weapon, then return to her business in NJ.

      As for the cop, cops have discretion, even in today’s world. He cared nothing about her and her two kids when he decided to jack her up, and he would know the potential penalty she’d be facing. He could size her up in one second as an innocent citizen with a valuable job as a nurse, previous violent crime victim (she could have told him that), two kids to care for, no criminal history, etc., and recognize she was no danger to anyone. But no, he just had to jack her up and turn her life into hell. It was real crappy of him to not cut her a break. He’s a POS, AFAIC.

    Even the embarrassment of the different treatment she got vs. the NFL, I am surprised it took the prosecutor this long to pull his head from his butt. But for her sake I am glad they finally did so.

    New Jersey’s motto should be: “New Jersey is a place to avoid.”

      MarkS in reply to EBL. | September 24, 2014 at 9:57 pm

      A Republican prosecutor in a state with a Republican governor offer a slap on the wrist to one who knocked out his girl friend and wanted to throw the book at a woman who merely had a lapse. Maybe there is something to the Republican War on Women.

Here is why.

This isn’t perfect but better than the alternative.

    That was GREAT! I may snag that for my blog. “Welcome to the anti-gun Utopia” indeed.

    JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Shane. | September 25, 2014 at 1:43 am

    Great vid, very well done.

    But the “Why?” still stands. The answer is that it was up to the cop and he decided to be the biggest prick in the world toward this gal, that’s why. The fact that NJ law sucks and refuses to acknowledge the Second Amendment could have been nullified for a moment, in this instance, if the cop would have done the right thing.

    Cops love to talk about how they’re the “first line of defense” protecting the people. Sorry, but that position has already been filled by Mr. Smith, Mr. Wesson, Mr. Glock and an entire posse of others, including my favorite gentlemen, Mr. John Moses Browning, Mr. Sam Colt and the guys at Sig Sauer.

    Cops need to start considering themselves the first line of defense against draconian legislation that violates the God-given rights of private citizens if they want their work to be respected and valued.

    I wish I could wave a magic wand to force the cop to pay Ms. Allen’s legal bill.

    The entire event is an outrage.

Great news. The sad part is that this decision was made because of political pressure not common sense.

Unfortunately, unlike driver’s licenses, concealed carry permits are not automatically recognized by other states.

Andrew, in case you know the answer to my casual question without having to research it, has this issue (full faith and credit) ever been raised with respect to “licenses” to exercise Second Amendment rights (or is this merely a privilege, like a driver license, and a subpar one at that?), at least as to persons who continue to be primarily domiciled in the issuing state? It’s not quite like the privilege of something like a law license — is it?

    See http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/10/full-faith-and-credit-pardons-and-gun-rights/

    My understanding is that no one has challenged it since McDonald was decided, which recognized carry outside the home as an incorporated right. It might be newly fertile ground for a SCOTUS challenge with the right plaintiff.

      JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Chuck Skinner. | September 25, 2014 at 1:48 am

      It seems Ms. Allen would be the perfect plaintiff.

      The prosecutor should drop the entire matter and pray he never hears her name again.

        Unfortunately, she has probably received an “offer too good tor refuse” at this point.

        A “pre-trial-diversion” program usually does not require a plea, does not require a finding or any other type of conviction record.

        Are there some hoops to jump through? Yes. In El Paso, the hoops are about 9 months (on average) of 1/month classes and a total fee of about $800. But, for that you can say “the case was dismissed” and if asked if you have ever pled guilty you can legally answer “no,” as opposed to a “deferred adjudication” where you plea up front, and then get the Dismissal IF you successfully complete “probation.”

        I (and a lot of other Criminal Defense practitioners in El Paso) have a policy: If you’re getting out of the case with a dismissal without a plea, DON’T ROCK THE BOAT. Do what they tell you, don’t screw up and walk away with a record that you were arrested that only the police and military will ever be able to see.

        The other thing is TIME is always a consideration. A protracted fight, even if free monetarily is expensive in terms of how much of your life it eats up. A case like this one might take 6 years or more to get to SCOTUS (if they take it at all). That can take a lot out of a person.

          JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Chuck Skinner. | September 25, 2014 at 1:37 pm

          I absolutely agree that this is the best thing that can come of this legal affront to Ms. Allen’s life at this time. For her sake, the sake of her kids, and her career it is the best to be had. I wish her well with the program and hope that her finances have not become precarious because of this debacle.

          That said, the other part of me would love to see her fight this all the way.

This prosecutor is, IMHO, abusing power.

And he/she is doing it inconsistently.
Giving VIP treatment to a POS wife beater caught on camera, but handing full punishment to a young mother with a clean record for an honest mistake: How can that make any sense?

Worst part: He/she will not even be slapped in the wrist.

    Of COURSE the prosecutor is abusing his power. I find often that certain prosecutors, who have a chip on their shoulder or are getting some other “benefit” will act in a manner to feed that benefit. For some, it’s Federal monies. For others it’s support of groups like MADD, Mother’s Demand Action, Catholic Diocese or some other group which can provide “electoral support” or at least cover when the next election rolls around.

    There’s a remedy for that: Elections. The people of his County need to rise up and vote the elected DA out of office, because of his lack of common sense.

Since a lawyer or two post on this site that know a thing or two about firearms, let me ask you all this…

Is one legally required to disclose the presence of a firearm in your vehicle unless asked by LEO?

Greg Garrison, (former Prosecutor, attorney, and conservative talk radio host in Indy) pretty much spent an entire 3 hour show on this question a couple years back.

Dozens of calls from other attorneys and LEOs, and the “consensus” seemed to be that one is not legally required (In Indiana)to offer up that info unless asked.

But you’d better damn sure tell them if it’s in the glovebox with your registration before you reach for your papers

    Depends on where you are and the laws which apply at the time. (gotta love the basic lawyer answer)….

    It depends on the State in question. In Michigan, if you have a concealed carry permit AND you happen to BE carrying at any time you are in an interaction with Police officers, you are REQUIRED BY LAW to disclose you are carrying so that the Officer can “disarm” you.

    It used to be a bad joke in Detroit that if you were disarmed, the Police would “confiscate” your weapon and you would never get it back, because of the number of hoops, approvals and hearings that you would have to attend. The State finally mostly fixed that by removing Detroit’s powers regarding firearms law to the Secretary of State of Michigan.

    Even if you are NOT carrying at the time, it’s usually a good policy to disclose ANYWAY because the moment that officer runs your license, it’s almost always going to have a “CCP” (Concealed Carry Permit) flag come back, after which if you did not disclose, they are GOING to “Terry Stop” frisk you to see if you ARE carrying, in violation of any pertinent laws.

    Now, what I REALLY want to know is: Did the Officer, while following Ms. Allen, run her plate and have it pop up as a Concealed Carry Permit holder, and then “manufacture” the “unsafe lane change” charge out of whole cloth in order to “check” to see if she was carrying. While “pretext” searches have been blessed by the SCOTUS, they still “look” bad to the average public.

      (Last paragraph)
      My thought exactly. A “lane change” violation has to be one of the more subjective probable causes for a traffic stop.

      Or the fact that she was a woman traveling alone. (Yeah. I went there. )

    amwick in reply to murkyv. | September 25, 2014 at 9:00 am

    In the great state of SC, where I have obtained a non resident concealed carry permit, you are obligated to present the permit whenever you have any kind of interaction with LEO, whether you are carrying or not. I have mine taped to my drivers license so I will not forget.

    I am thinking about gluing a note to the steering wheel as well. Concealed carry reciprocity is confusing and annoying but it is incumbent on every permit holder to understand and follow. That being said, in this instance I am relieved that Shaneen Allen was given this pre trial intervention.

No duty to in form in Pa., though the Phila. Police Dept. hands out a gratuitous instruction sheet with carry licenses that says that “you must inform.”
This is something that the PPD made up out of whole cloth and is probably why the victim foolishly blurted out that she had a handgun to the officer in NJ.
As a result of an unrelated lawsuit, and too late for Ms. Allen, the PPD, among other things, agreed to change the language to “strongly suggest that you inform.”

MouseTheLuckyDog | September 24, 2014 at 10:39 pm

Why doesn’t Christie just outright pardon her?

She hasn’t been convicted yet, nothing to pardon.

Excuse me, but there is something very important missing in this post. The name of the prosecutor. Why is it left out? And don’t tell me his name is in the link. We shouldn’t have to click on it to find out who the idiot is. If Shaneen Allen is named in the body of the article, so should her persecutor/prosecutor be named.

This smacks of lawyer-buddy protection.

The name is Atlantic County Prosecutor Jim McClain.

I have no doubt her being black and female had significant influence on the decision to give her a break.

    JackRussellTerrierist in reply to randian. | September 25, 2014 at 1:52 am

    There may be truth to that. Would a white male get a deal, all else being equal?

      Probably not. A white man has no political agitators to appease nor is there any chance of Ferguson being repeated if he’s treated harshly by the criminal justice system.

      Female sex is a strong predictor of leniency. Women rarely get hit hard like Ms Allen did.

        BannedbytheGuardian in reply to randian. | September 25, 2014 at 7:52 am

        Couple of stats would help . There must be a case of white Le High or Scranton guy day – tripping to Nj with their gun in their pocket.

BannedbytheGuardian | September 25, 2014 at 2:32 am

Some things missing from this emotive laden article .

The Prosecutor stated he was under the restrictions of the Graves act in 2008 & had no discretion . On Wednesday the NJ Attorney General released a new directive on this act thus allowing the new direction. ( this is beyond all our opinions & may or may not have been requested by The Governor ) .
Ms Allen is described as a ‘nurse’ . I am un afraid to say this is highly unlikely for a single 27 year black mother with a 10 year old & a 5 year old to finish a college degree. She is a ‘phlebotomist’ ( blood specimen collector/ technician which in PA requires no certification. She may have or she may not but we have no verification she can even read ( nor drive) to a reasonable standard . ( think the Kermit Philly abortion clinic unqualified staff)

On the social / class scale she could be anywhere from middle class to functionally illiterate. . No matter that PA gave her a license , maybe NJ did not want the latter in their state with gun.( this to those accusing the police officer) . We only gave her side o the story . She could have gotten her license just a week before to go shoot her ex for example .

Even with the WaPo on her side she had only managed $62,000 crowd funding in what should be a cause célèbre .

    Ah, I love the smell of Progressive fascist hate in the morning. 🙂

    –Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

    Well, sir. There is Registered Nurse, Practical Nurse and dumbass. I’m pretty sure she is one of the former, while no doubt you are the latter.

    A RN certification takes at least two years and a Nurse Practitioner can take a year or less. Nobody claimed she was a RN. But then, why would it matter?

      BannedbytheGuardian in reply to Redneck Law. | September 25, 2014 at 8:52 am

      Wapo had a correction . In 2013 they had her as a Plebologist which is a medical doctor who has undertaken extra training in the area of veins etc . Drama – highly qualified black woman hounded by NJ even though she broke the law. In the most recent article she was downgraded to a phlebotomist which in PA requires no certification at all .

      If she was a RN we might be assured she had the wherewithal to distinguish PA from NJ / read the licence & maybe be a reasonable driver ( for the posters who accuse the police officer of harassment ) . As it is because she has not been on trial , we only hear the defense side.

      If she went to prison the Laydees will be disappointed . That is some Photoshoppe.

      BannedbytheGuardian in reply to Redneck Law. | September 25, 2014 at 9:14 am

      Btw a Nurse Practitioner requires a Masters in The US & Australia ( 2 nations that use it ) . In 2015 the American college of nursing will be recommending a doctorate.be the qualification .

      A long way from 12 months boy .

      My bad. Lowest level of certification in my state is CNA, or Certified Nurse Assistant. Yes, they are referred to as a “nurse.” I stand by my two points: you can be a nurse with a year of training and two, you are still a dumbass, Bbtg!

      JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Redneck Law. | September 25, 2014 at 3:07 pm

      Whatever tier she’s reached thus far at her age with two kids is commendable, and anybody working effectively in the nursing field is a valuable member of society. The fact that this woman isn’t on welfare, had the moxie to not go down that road and had the moxie to get her CCW and a firearm to protect herself and her kids after twice being victimized tells me she is a smart, good citizen with potential.

      This arrest should never have happened.

    From the Philly.com article:

    The Office of the Attorney General on Wednesday issued to McClain a clarification of the 2008 Graves Act directive that deals with circumstances in which an out-of-state resident holds a valid permit to carry a firearm within his or her own home state, is arrested in New Jersey, and is charged with illegal possession of a firearm under New Jersey law.

    In the clarification, issued by acting Attorney General John J. Hoffman, it was noted that in most of these cases, “imprisonment is neither necessary nor appropriate to serve the interests of justice and protect public safety.”

    Translated into American Political English (just for you, BbtG), that means that the acting AG was feeling rather roasted by the heat of the case and was looking to get himself, the Governor and the prosecutor off the hook. He further wanted (and indeed likely was strongly urged by the other establishment pols) to forestall the legal challenge that would likely invalidate the NJ law.

    This frequently happens when the local prosecutors suddenly find themselves on the wrong end of the publicity machine.

      ^^^^ This. ^^^^

      *sniff-sniff* Yup, still smells AWESOME. 🙂

      –Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

      BannedbytheGuardian in reply to stevewhitemd. | September 25, 2014 at 8:31 am

      This is exactly what I mentioned & Branca did not in the article . It is not the first time prosecutors & judges are restricted by former directives . This happens everywhere especially when reactionary laws are passed as a citizen cry about leniency.

    And her age, race and social status matters exactly how? And FYI, it is completely possible for a singe mother of two to attend a community college and come out with a two year RN degree. Both of my sisters have completed the same course, and my older sister was “gasp” a single mother of two.

    JackRussellTerrierist in reply to BannedbytheGuardian. | September 25, 2014 at 2:46 pm

    You should strongly consider getting serious, meaningful psychiatric help.

This link is to the website US Carry national map showing which states honor other states’ concealed weapons permits:

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

This one is the same with a different layout, but also lets you print out copies, even down to wallet size.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/travel/

Took me less than 10 seconds to find this via Google.

———————-

While I disagree with NJ’s gun laws, the law is the law, bad or not. And since it is so easy to find out which states honor one’s permits and which do not, I ascribe to the lady from PA not criminality but laziness and/or ignorance. Fine her $100 and cut her loose.

Whether certain states’ law are constitutional is a whole ‘nother issue and I hope the NRA starts sending dozens of innocent law-abiding weapons-permitted folks into NJ to get pulled over – people willing to go the long road to higher and higher courts. But for the average Joe who just wants to go from State A to State B without trouble, know your states and reciprocity agreements.

Bottom line: If you are going to carry a weapon, know the current laws or expect trouble.

RE: Patrol officers and field discretion… Most officers are given authority by their department to exercise discretion on whether to arrest or ticket someone out of understanding that not every event confines itself to the law. Littering would be one, speeding another.

However, there are many offenses for which an officer is not allowed discretion and is expected to arrest or ticket. Murder would be one, right? So, there is a scale they work from.

In NC, most police agencies, i.e., city, town, county, state, have a no-discretion rule on DWI – if they blow, they go is the officer’s shorthand. This is due to an old case where an officer in some other state stopped a driver, found he was DWI – barely, at .08 – and decided to let him go for whatever reasons. He exercised discretion. The driver went on and a few miles down the road he got in an accident in which two people in the other car were killed. Only god knows how much or if the alcohol was a factor. But when the family of the victims found out an officer had the guy stopped, knew he was DWI, and let him go, well, you can imagine the lawsuits. From that case and others similar to it, the liability insurance companies that cover police agencies put the hammer down on certain discretionary powers by patrol officers. There are a lot of restrictions on patrol officer discretion in the field, and they come not from legislated law, but from departmental policy based on liability fears.

Since each police agency in each area will have its own set of yes/no field discretion rules, it is not easy to label an officer as some sort of asshole for not letting someone go. That officer may be risking his/her job by letting someone go. If I’m in the field as a citizen, and a cop is considering what to do with me, and I know damn well I’m guilty, I’m hoping for a break but feel have no right to expect one.

    JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Henry Hawkins. | September 25, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    I agree with what you say regarding the reality of liability. However, if you don’t think cops exercise discretion under certain circumstances beyond the scope of their respective department’s parameters, you would be very wrong. It happens a lot, and hopefully always will. Some cops have a sense of right and wrong that moves their decisions beyond the automatons that insurers would like them to be, so they often make judgment calls that fall outside the rigid scope of department policy. Some even have a sense of humanity in their hearts and know when jacking somebody up is inherently wrong. The recent statement from the NJ state’s acting AG basically confirms the truth about this arrest serving no public safety issue, albeit a self-serving, politically motivated truth.

    According to Andrew’s explanation, Ms. Allen was just across the state line – the Delaware River – when she was pulled over. A few blocks and a few quick turns up onto the bridge was all that was needed to allow her to avoid this undeserved living nightmare.

      “”According to Andrew’s explanation, Ms. Allen was just across the state line – the Delaware River – when she was pulled over. A few blocks and a few quick turns up onto the bridge was all that was needed to allow her to avoid this undeserved living nightmare.

      In fairness, I don’t know exactly how far over the border she was.

      She was pulled over in Atlantic County, however, which does NOT border the Delaware River, not by quite some miles, so she was pretty well into New Jersey (I mean, it IS New Jersey, it’s not all THAT wide, but you know what I mean–she wasn’t just barely over the river.)

      –Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

        JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Andrew Branca. | September 25, 2014 at 3:32 pm

        Then I misunderstood your phrasing, “While driving in New Jersey, just over the Delaware, Allen was pulled over …”

        It seemed that “…just over the Delaware…” was modifying “driving”, not “New Jersey”, because then you follow with “Allen”.

        Perhaps “While driving in New Jersey, which is just over the Delaware, Allen was pulled over…” would have been clearer since you didn’t mean Ms. Allen was just over the Delaware into New Jersey.

        If someone said, “While riding his new bike, just past the mailbox, Johnny got hit by a car and broke his leg…”, I would think Johnny got hit while riding near the mailbox by a car, otherwise I wouldn’t understand why the phrase, “just past the mailbox” was included in the sentence.

        But maybe it’s just me. 🙂

        Ah, words.

          Haha, I’ll happily concede my phrasing was misleading in terms of her distance into NJ when she was pulled over.

          But it makes no substantive difference.

          The core of the issue is that Allen simply mistakenly believed her Pennsylvania license to be valid in New Jersey, period. Not just valid only if she was barely over the river, but everywhere in the Garden State.

          Whether she was just over the Delaware or in Atlantic County or up by Fort Lee or at the Delaware Water gap, the issue is the same. She mistakenly believed herself to be lawfully licensed to possess her defensive firearm in New Jersey.

          So, whether near or far, the legal issues remain the same. 🙂

          –Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

      Ms. JRT, I couldn’t have been clearer that I realize cops use discretion, in fact, I delineated the basic scale for it with examples at the extremes: murder, no discretion, littering, maybe, and pointed out different depts draw the lines at different places along that scale. I also spoke on how officers use discretion even against dept policies, but risk their jobs doing so? How could you miss all that?

      I love you, sweety, I do, but you seem to have a prejudice against police officers that makes simply not see the words sometimes.

        JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Henry Hawkins. | September 25, 2014 at 6:27 pm

        Yes, Henry, I do know you said all that. But littering and speeding and other such trifles are infractions and misdemeanors at most. Ms. Allen was charged with two felonies. Speeding is more dangerous to public safety than What Ms. Allen did, and littering is more damaging to the public than what Ms. Allen did. Yet she ends up with her entire life in jeopardy, even though she neither damaged nor harmed anyone. Two felonies.

        I don’t dislike cops at all. I like them/us a lot. 🙂 But I don’t see them through a TV screen or relatives or rose-colored glasses, having worked in LE almost thirty years myself. I just happen to know how they think and act down to the tiniest fiber of my being.

          “Yes, Henry, I do know you said all that. But littering and speeding and other such trifles are infractions and misdemeanors at most.”

          That’s exactly what I said – I placed them at the lowest end of my scale and this is why I’m saying you only think you know what I’m posting. You’re pointing out things to me like you’re sharing important new knowledge but they’re things I just said!

          I’m not sure if I’m going to ask you to the Halloween Ball or not….

          JackRussellTerrierist in reply to JackRussellTerrierist. | September 26, 2014 at 1:10 am

          If you don’t, you’ll be sorry!! 🙂 🙂

        JackRussellTerrierist in reply to Henry Hawkins. | September 25, 2014 at 6:55 pm

        One other thing, re DWI and “If they blow, they go”: That’s true, unless it’s a cop’s relative or the mayor or the police chief, etc.. In that case, they get their car parked for them and a ride home. It still happens from little towns to big cities.

        The liability you describe in the “If they blow, they go” doctrine is an important reason for the policy, but DWI arrests are also big money-makers for the jurisdiction and are very politically correct.

        I support the policy because I’ve seen the carnage and grief these selfish, irresponsible fools wreak on others, not for any of the above reasons.

BannedbytheGuardian | September 25, 2014 at 4:16 pm

So basically I am right yet again. In my experience of crossing the PA/NJ border we were warned locally re the gun laws in NJ .if one had a gun , they offered suggestions of safekeeping/ transport.

Everyone with a gun living in the border regions of PA knows this , which is why it seems not to have arisen prior .

The authors attack on the Prosecutor is unwarranted & the posters attack on the police officer is countered by some late arguments.

The Restriction on the Prosecutor is from a previous Democrat Gov & legislative arm . Christie only has a slim hold on power & obviously NJ has not pushed to overturn this . Back to States Rights only for things you approve of?

    “In my experience of crossing the PA/NJ border we were warned locally re the gun laws in NJ .if one had a gun , they offered suggestions of safekeeping/ transport.”

    Really.

    And what were those suggestions if you were, say, visiting the Jersey shore for the weekend?

    –Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

      Plenty of sunscreen?

      BannedbytheGuardian in reply to Andrew Branca. | September 25, 2014 at 10:54 pm

      I travelled through14 states & made an effort to know the gun laws in each unlike your heroine.

      At X town I left the van I had got a lift with from a festival & went on foot .i was picked up 30 kms further by a parks ranger & driven by NJ police to the police combined ranger station . My pack was searched & I made a statement .

      They may have thought I had the gun but as I did not – the van was allowed to leave . If they had a gun they made adequate arrangements whilst travelling through NJ .

In SC I had to attend a course, take a written test then take a shooting test at a range, and submit finger prints, to receive my non resident permit. Overall, it cost nearly $200 and took almost three months. In PA I filled out a form and gave the nice lady 20 bucks, if memory serves. The nice lady then made a phone call(to see if I was a non criminal). I am not blaming anyone, but the difference between these two states is mind boggling. Perhaps the leniency in PA is part of the problem. My understnding is that these type of differences are at the root of reciprocity issues.

    Henry Hawkins in reply to amwick. | September 25, 2014 at 5:28 pm

    NC Resident CCP = $25 county application, 8 hr $100 class, qualify at a range, background check, prints. NC is ‘must issue’, plus we have the Castle law.

    Was any of the stuff you had to do because you were non-resident applicant?

parsimonious |ˌpärsəˈmōnēəs| adjective
unwilling to spend money or use resources; stingy or frugal: parsimonious New Hampshire voters, who have a phobia about taxes.

Got it. Damned, for a second I thought Buckley had come back from the grave! :<)

Great news on her. I donated to her legal defense fund when I heard about the crap Jersey was doing to her and I'm glad this is now over. Hopefully the morons in Trenton will get their heads out of their asses and recognize CCP holders from other states.

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