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“The jury reached the right result”

“The jury reached the right result”

The great thing about having your own blog is that you get to quote yourself.

The title is a quote from my interview this morning with Lee Rayburn of WHCU 870 AM in Ithaca.

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Amazingly, against all odds, even against GZ’s big mouth (which nearly got his ass convicted all by itself), yes.

Now he faces rounds 2 and 3 – Obama/Holder/DOJ, and Martins aka Crump et all civil suit.

I do NOT understand the concept of ‘Feds get a second bite at the apple any time they want, because it’s a ‘different jurisdiction’ ??? Didn’t the first trial occur in the USA, under laws that SCOTUS has no struck down ( thus they have federal acceptance) ?

Let’s see how Holder gets around this jury having said, by rejecting Murder 2, that there was no ‘deprvaed mind’ etc, and the FBI report saying ‘there was no racism’.

How much you wanna bet Holder orders FBI to ‘reopoen’ the investigation, and come up with a different result this time ?

After all, GZ said ‘fuck’ and ‘asshole’ – WACIST WACIST !!!!

I wonder how many people were in that courtroom that have never said those words, or worse ? Martins included, prostituters included ?

There’s no civil suit that’s going to go anywhere. Under FLA law, Zimmerman has immunity from being found not guilty by reason of self defense.

You’re right that Holder will have to do some special gymnastics to get around that the FBI already concluded an investigation and found no or insufficient racial animus.

OTOH, this could end up being be just like the “investigations” undertaken by this Administration regarding Benghazi – just a way to hold off the public and freeze most of the opposition without getting to any resolution or taking any action.

    Bruce Hayden in reply to avwh. | July 15, 2013 at 10:05 pm

    not sure of that – remember, the verdict was “not guilty”, and not “not guilty by reason of self-defense”, though logically, they could not have found him not guilty without finding self-defense. Still, the standards are different – the jury would have had to find a lack of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, while an immunity hearing would require Zimmerman to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Possible, but arguably not done yet.

I have just about come to the conclusion that you will never convince someone that is “hard over” in the Trayvon camp that Zim was not guilty. They will never, ever admit they are wrong.

Many of these people seem to think that it would be A-ok for Martin to beat Zimmerman to death for the crime of “because he was following me.”

In what civilized universe is this ok?

Martin should have simply gone home. If he had simply gone home he would probably be alive today.

    Baker in reply to Twanger. | July 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    You are perfectly right. It is virtually impossible to convince those who refuse to be convinced and who refuse to look at the evidence and facts because they are afraid to admit they were/are wrong.

    I think one thing that is hard to overcome is that the media and talking heads continue to misstate the facts in the case. The perfect example is one Prof. Jacobson cited in his interview concerning the lady who still believed GZ got out his car to follow TM after the police told him not to. Of course that assertion is completely wrong. Yet I still hear and read news media and talking heads say the same thing and dozens of other similar statements that are clearly wrong based on the actual testimony and evidence.

      rokiloki in reply to Baker. | July 15, 2013 at 7:50 pm

      Its not just hardheaded trademark supporters and the media. Educated professional who should have more sense and integrity also still believe trademark was a real victim. In an interview BDLR said he believes GZ held trademark at gunpoint while he screamed for help:

      “I think [Zimmerman] had the gun out earlier … but we didn’t have the eyewitnesses,” de la Rionda said.

      They believe Zimmerman pointed his gun at Martin not too long after they confronted each other and that the teen was screaming for help. As they attempted to convince jurors during the trial, they pointed out that the screams stopped immediately when the gunshot was fired.

      He also called Zimmerman a coward for exercising his 5th Amendment right.

      http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-prosecutor-prayed-testify/story?id=19666346#.UeP6v6LVByx

        Observer in reply to rokiloki. | July 15, 2013 at 8:03 pm

        Yes, there couldn’t possibly be any other reason why the screams stopped at the gunshot, right Bernie? Like the fact that the gunshot stopped the beating that was the reason for the screaming?

          Rand in reply to Observer. | July 15, 2013 at 8:11 pm

          I don’t hear many people try to make a point that it was Martin because the screaming stopped after the gunshot. I suspect it’s because after a brief moment of reflection, the stupidity of that claim becomes obvious.

      Lady Penguin in reply to Baker. | July 15, 2013 at 8:21 pm

      They’re repeating the lies over and over again deliberately. You know the old saying if you tell a lie often enough…

      They know they’re not telling the truth, there isn’t any way they could not know. Chris Wallace on FOX yesterday morning committed journalistic malpractice when he said if “Zimmerman had just obeyed and stayed in his car.” Evidence (the 911 record) had already shown that Zimmerman was already out of his car when the dispatcher requested him to “not follow.” Which George did heed, but he was already out of the car and just stood waiting for the police. During which time Martin jumped Zimmerman.

      It suits the lefties’ meme to continue the lies.

        There was a considerable period of time there unaccounted for, except for Zimmerman’s testimony concerning his whereabouts. I was waiting to hear the prosecution’s theory of who went where (including Martin) during those 4 minutes or so, but nothing. Maybe the prosecution’s theory is that Zimmerman chased Martin around the housing complex a couple of times? They played hide-and-seek in the bushes? Or something.

    pjm in reply to Twanger. | July 15, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    “because he was following me.” – you mean ‘He be follow me, he be creepy ass cracka’.

    Meanwhile, 6 black kids were shot to death in Chicago last weekend by other black kids. Like every other weekend, except the body count was low this time.

    One black kid was found, seriously decomposed, behind an abandonded building, supposedly killed because he refused to join a street gang.

    But let one black get killed by a white, and WHO NELLY ! International incident ! The details don’t matter, there’s a black (young man, not kid) killed by a white. THAT’S all that matters, right ?

I hope you contributed to your building fund for your own attribution. lol

How would Florida State Attorney Angela Corey describe George Zimmerman in one word?

“Murderer.”
———————–
OK. THAT, by itself, is enough to get this witch out of office.

Under the Constitution, her only answer should have been…

“Innocent”

Because that is the ONLY thing she has ANY business asserting.

    Uncle Samuel in reply to Ragspierre. | July 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    That’s exactly how Angela Corey DID describe George Zimmerman today on TV.

    She is reprehensible, unethical, irresponsible, immoral, low-class, like Crump and company.

    They and their partners in crime deserve disbarment and incarceration.

    Fabi in reply to Ragspierre. | July 15, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Lady Penguin in reply to Ragspierre. | July 15, 2013 at 8:26 pm

    I’m puzzled by the incredible unprofessional behavior and it would seem to me, libel (or is it slander?) that Corey is going forward like this. Can she be sued? Can she be brought up on ethics charges?

    I’ve never seen such gross misconduct, not even a pretense of professionalism is present on the part of these two characters. Florida (including Gov. Scott) should be ashamed.

Great interview.

Re Angela Corey and the prosecutors (who, notwithstanding what their boss may have told them to do, have independent professional responsibility in this matter): bar complaints have to be filed for the Florida Bar to do anything. They won’t take action on their own.

    Elliott in reply to janitor. | July 15, 2013 at 7:18 pm

    That may be why West said he needs to keep his bar license a couple more year in order to file the bar complaints.

    And Prof Jacobson that was an excellent interview especially the information about the texts which was a great deal that I did not know. This case just gets more egregious the more information is known.

      Ragspierre in reply to Elliott. | July 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm

      Didn’t you see O’Mara whispering in his ear each time those kinds of questions were posed…???

      West was ready to go off. He was ready to “speak truth to power” respecting a LOT of people, including the judge.

      He could have been in trouble for venting his spleen about this whole matter.

      Believe me. I know. I HAVE been found in contempt by a judge. (Which is a big reason I went to law school.)

        Baker in reply to Ragspierre. | July 15, 2013 at 7:47 pm

        Do they have a class on that?

          Ragspierre in reply to Baker. | July 15, 2013 at 7:54 pm

          Classessssss. AND it is on the bar exam. You can criticize a sitting judge. You just have to do it VERY carefully.

        Carol Herman in reply to Ragspierre. | July 15, 2013 at 8:23 pm

        And, you also wrote a book (still available at Amazon)”Joe Shrugged.”

        Did you know the response to the call to riot was met by “meh?”

        I’ve been to REDDIT. Nothing to report on this subject.

Talk radio today was filled with the same low information voters calling in and repeating the same crap that they have heard from the media. Most had facts wrong.

None repeated evidence that was admitted in court.

They all mentioned GZ followed when told not to. What they missed was the entire testimony of the NEN dispatcher.

Most important all missed the testimony that NEN asked GZ “What is he (TM) doing now?” Most important was the testimony that NEN never gives directions but is trained to make all of their statements of direction in a more suggestive, subjective manner for liability reasons.

After GZ said TM was running the NEN specifically asked what was he doing. GZ was still in his vehicle at this time but it most certainly created the suggestion that the NEN wanted GZ to keep eyes on TM.

All of the low information voters missed that there was no evidence that GZ continued following/searching for TM after the NEN said “we don’t need you to do that.” and GZ responded “OK”. All wind noise or running noise stopped after the OK.

All missed the testimony about the contents of TMs phone that were not allowed in evidence (most certainly this will be introduced in any attempted wrongful death suit filed by Crump crooks.

I want Tracey Martin to have to testify that when Trayvon did not come home his first calls were to the juvenile detention centers and not police or hospitals. His immediate reaction was the TM was out doing something wrong/criminal and was caught. TM was caught just not by the police but the consequences of his own bad decisions and bad attitude.

    Rand in reply to Judyt2013. | July 15, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    I suspect that the Martin family will think twice about a civil wrongful death suit. They already got a big settlement from the housing association and collected a bunch of money for the family trust by trolling for donations with the likes of Al Sharpton. Zimmerman has no money, so not much to be gained monetarily, and likely additional evidence will be allowed, probably most of which would be damaging to the case or embarrassing to the family. Although, Zimmerman would have to testify.

    Carol Herman in reply to Judyt2013. | July 15, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    All the “low information voters” also keep missing that obama’s favorable job ratings have skidded below 31%. Sure, it depends on whom you’re polling. But if you go and read street signs held up by demonstrators in Cairo, you’ll see the hatred directed at obama, because the white house, and “krew” seem to be trying to back morsi. And, the “Brotherhood.”

    I’m of the opinion that obama’s become unglued.

Uncle Samuel | July 15, 2013 at 7:05 pm

That was an excellent interview, Professor Jacobson.

Thank you for clearly setting out the facts.

Professor Jacobson: The police at no time told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. It was merely a 911 operator. And most certainly there’s no law that says anyone has to obey a 911 operator.

Also she said to Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to do that.” He sai, “Ok” and was headed back to his car when he was jumped on by Martin.

    Uncle Samuel in reply to Mercyneal. | July 15, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    AND the dispatcher twice after saying you don’t need to follow, asked if GZ could tell him which way the person went. This was after GZ was already out of the truck.

    O’Mara stated that in the closing.

    rokiloki in reply to Mercyneal. | July 15, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    I think a lot of whites in the pro-trademark camp ignore the facts because it gives them the ability to say, “See? I’m not a racist.” Then they can say anyone who thinks trademark is to blame, even based solely on facts, is a racist.

Hey everybody. Instead of chatting in this echo chamber of agreement, how about going over to the Huffington Post and other left-wing blogs and try to educate the numb skulls? I know it’s hard (for example, trying to explain the legal concept of proximate cause to those those idiots).

But you can’t get the word out preaching to the choir. Besides, arguing with idiots can be fun if you approach it with a certain sense of humor.

If charged, Zimmerman would face criminal charges under 18 USC § 249 – Hate crime acts. There is a long recognized dual sovereignty exception to “double jeopardy”. In principle, both the United States and the State can bring criminal charges on the same transaction. To prevent abuses DOJ has written Guidelines (The Petite Policy) to ensure second prosecutions are brought only in the case of serious defects in the original acquittal.

The Hate Crimes Statute USC §249(4) codifies these Guidelines into law. Three standards must be met:

“first, the matter must involve a substantial federal interest; second, the prior prosecution must have left that interest demonstrably unvindicated; and third, applying the same test that is applicable to all federal prosecutions, the government must believe that the defendant’s conduct constitutes a federal offense, and that the admissible evidence probably will be sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction by an unbiased trier of fact. In addition, there is a procedural prerequisite to be satisfied, that is, the prosecution must be approved by the appropriate Assistant Attorney General”

The standards further state:

The [second] presumption may be overcome when a conviction was not achieved because of the following sorts of factors: first, incompetence, corruption, intimidation, or undue influence; second, court or jury nullification in clear disregard of the evidence or the law; third, the unavailability of significant evidence, either because it was not timely discovered or known by the prosecution, or because it was kept from the trier of fact’s consideration because of an erroneous interpretation of the law; fourth, the failure in a prior state prosecution to prove an element of a state offense that is not an element of the contemplated federal offense; and fifth, the exclusion of charges in a prior federal prosecution out of concern for fairness to other defendants, or for significant resource considerations that favored separate federal prosecutions.

Since the standards are codified, the defendant after indictment could argue that the Petite Policy does not allow for further prosecution. Firstly the prosecution while vicious was competent. Secondly, Zimmerman was not acquitted on an issue collateral to a Federal issue.

USC § 249 also codifies a two pronged test. In Zimmerman’s case Test 1 would be that he used a conduit of interstate commerce. That could be a public street. However the incident occurred in a private gated community. That little distinction alone may be enough to get an indictment dismissed. Test 2 is easily met since Zimmerman used a firearm no doubt shipped across state lines.

In summary, just getting to trial, will not be easy for DOJ given an unbiased District Court Judge.

    Rand in reply to sequester. | July 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    I would think that the main reason Holder would not want to prosecute this as a federal case is the high risk of losing the case. That would make him look like an incompetent political whore.

    On second thought, I guess he has already crossed that threshold a few times.

      sequester in reply to Rand. | July 15, 2013 at 8:03 pm

      Holder is just trying to appease his base. Attempting a second prosecution on this facts coupled with the codified near double jeopardy restrictions is a fools errand.

I think I remember, during his press conference on Saturday night, in reply to a question about civil suits that if anyone tried to bring a civil suit they would seek, and get, immunity for George Z.

I have been troubled all day listening to the liars tearing our country apart with self serving or agenda driven lies. We have no leaders, just hucksters who jump on bandwagons.

Do we, ordinary people who cherish the rule of law, have any recourse?

    robbi in reply to betty. | July 15, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    Glad you brought this up. Would any lawyers please weigh in on this question. I found an article that seems contradictory
    “Individuals found to be justified in using deadly force may be immune from civil liability under Florida law. If the family sues and loses, it might be ordered to pay attorneys’ fees and compensation to defendants, according to state law.”
    Yet, “Kendall Coffey, a former U.S. attorney in Miami, said Martin’s family can sue because Zimmerman didn’t seek a hearing under the state’s self-defense law before he was tried”. How can someone have a hearing proving they were justified using deadly force before a trial?

      sequester in reply to robbi. | July 15, 2013 at 8:00 pm

      O’Mara is probably better at reading the law than Kendall. FL 776.032 reads

      The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

        Rand in reply to sequester. | July 15, 2013 at 8:18 pm

        I would find it surprising if the finding of self-defense in the criminal case was applicable to a civil case given the different standards (Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt vs. Preponderance of the Evidence). If Florida allows a self-defense hearing before the trial, what is the standard of proof?

      robbi in reply to robbi. | July 15, 2013 at 8:22 pm

      Thank-you both for the information.

Fantastic job on the radio. Lee did a wonderful job … He was well prepared, let the expert talk, and asked excellent questions.

Uncle Samuel | July 15, 2013 at 8:01 pm

Corey’s prosecution of the young mother (who has a premature newborn baby) who discharged a weapon to try to frighten off her violent ex-husband is also reprehensible.

    I read an article about that. Do you know if there was more to it than that? What the hell was her reasoning (if there was any)?

    Carol Herman in reply to Uncle Samuel. | July 15, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    Corey always assumed her behaviors would never see the light of day. This Zimmerman case has changed all of that. Even Rick Scott will take good money from his own pocket, to try and clear his reputation.

    You know, it’s like a woman who wanted to get pregnant for 15 years. And, she was told by doctors she was infertile. Today, at REDDIT she photographed the stick that said she is indeed pregnant. She’s got nine more months to go. And, yes. I do wish her a healthy pregnancy. But keep in mind it’s a long nine months before delivery.

    Here? We’re in the beginning days of a long hot summer. And, we keep coming back to check Legal Insurrection, to get filled in with the latest updates. We’re way more committed to this case than the entitlement groups.

    We’re also 50 States BIG. (Not like Obama said 57). And, the pie is not equally divided. If there’s a sea change … where the coasts lose jobs, and go deeper into debt and deficit, the whole middle corridor will be much more than “fly over country.”

    Oh, yes. It’s going to take a long time to fix. But “fix” it will. (You know there was a time it was said “we’d never get rid of slavery. And, it would grow to encompass all the States, at that time.) Prediction never happened.

    Costly battles. But success goes to those you can educate. In the 1800’s and early Twentieth Century, most people didn’t go to college. But learning to read early in life, they continued reading (even the hard classics) … And, Shakespeare. All by themselves. Autodidacts.

    If Dee-Dee reflects the current state of education where the bar dropped … If we fix education? No one graduates who can’t read cursive. And, no one graduates who can’t do basic math. And, no one graduates who can’t learn our cultures real history.

Juror on CNN just admitted that the stricken testimony of Serino really impacted her decision. She was also moved by the wartime medic who recognized GZ’s scream.

Oh, boy…

She said Creepy-ass cracka was not racial.

    Rand in reply to Fabi. | July 15, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    She thought she was being asked about all the Ritz crackers she ate that made her creepy ass fat………..

    I know. I know. That was pretty low brow of me.

Carol Herman | July 15, 2013 at 8:12 pm

Does anybody else remember Col. Oliver North? Circa 1985. The Iran Contra Trials. The attempt made at Congress to destroy Ronald Reagan’s presidency. Within 24 hours of Ollie North’s testimony, donations poured in for him to cover his expenses. And, very quickly, he received more than $10-million. He went on to write books. And, to host his own radio program. He actually comes onto the scene before Rush becomes famous.

By the way, over at the “Daily Beast” they wrote that one of the jurors (B29?) already has a book deal. Where she will detail why the jurors concluded the State didn’t present evidence to prove George Zimmerman guilty. And, why the jurors chose the Not Guilty verdict.

    Good old Olie North. That guy had brass balls. I was so impressed when he stood up to the sanctimonious congressional committee planning to grind his bones to make their political bread. All I could think was: I wish all the officers in the armed services had this much moxey. People I speak to about this are surprised to learn he was only convicted on a cheap-jack charge of using government money to pay for his private security system.

Sequester, thank you for your informative post. However one small correction if I may (I know a lot more about firearms than about the law) : ” Test 2 is easily met since Zimmerman used a firearm no doubt shipped across state lines.”

The Kel-Tec PF9 is manufactured in Cocoa, FL to my knowledge, in fact the States ballistic expert stated she had visited the factory twice. It may have shipped directly from the manufacturer to the gun shop which sold it to George Zimmerman assuming he purchased it new. It’s also possible it was shipped to a distributor in some other state that then sold it to the gun shop GZ purchased it from.

    Carol Herman in reply to redcliff. | July 15, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    But the quacks in the white house don’t want to deal with any of the problems erupting in the world right now. Maybe, they’ll “do” Israel on their lunch break.

    And, they’re desperate to see riots, because big ones would let them call out the National Guard. Delusional stuff.

    Also, like doubling down in a casino when you’ve already bet away your house. (Just like the low rent voters who buy up $800 dollars worth of lottery tickets, because then they feel they’re sure to win.) Poor understanding of math. And, the dynamics of gambling.

The Kel-Tec pistol is made in Florida, so it may not have crossed a state line.

    randian in reply to Old0311. | July 16, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    But because its sale displaced the sale of a gun that did cross state lines, it affected interstate commerce and therefore there’s a federal interest. Don’t blame me, blame SCOTUS.

Professor Jacobson:

Did you see this letter published by one of your colleagues in the New York Times today? The police never ordered Zimmerman to do anything. He spoke to a 911 operator:

Despite the rhetoric on both sides, the criminal justice system sometimes works as it is supposed to. George Zimmerman should have been charged. He ignored a direct police order not to follow Trayvon Martin, he initiated the encounter, and he intentionally shot and killed an unarmed teenager. His statements about the events were inconsistent, and there was evidence he was the aggressor. In legal terms, there was definitely “probable cause” to charge Mr. Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

The prosecution presented its case, warts and all (with a few self-inflicted wounds no doubt), and the jury unanimously decided that there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of Mr. Zimmerman’s guilt. Whether one likes the results or not, based on an objective assessment of the evidence, the jurors made the right decision. In short, the case played out as it should have.

Now let’s hope the civil justice system works just as well, and Mr. Zimmerman is sued, found liable and forced to pay damages.

JOHN BLUME
Ithaca, N.Y., July 14, 2013

The writer is a professor at Cornell Law School and teaches criminal procedure and evidence.

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