Saturday Night Card Game (Would Zimmerman case have been filed if “creepy ass cracker” comment known?)
There was a concerted effort at the start of this case to frame the shooting as the result of racial profiling, and to use that narrative to pressure prosecutors to file the case after the police had refused to charge Zimmerman finding his claim of self-defense plausible.
From the false narrative of the hoodie, to the doctored NBC tape, to the false allegation that Zimmerman used the term “coon,” conclusions were jumped to and the pressure was on the prosecutors.
All the racial narratives went in one direction before the evidence was heard in court.
Now it heads in the opposite direction:
Given the weakness of the State’s case so far — at best conflicting eyewitness accounts which themselves create reasonable doubt as to what happened — I can only wonder if the prosecution would have been brought at all had the racial narrative reflected what we now know.
Donations tax deductible
to the full extent allowed by law.
Obama’s election ignited black racism, and Obama has stoked the fires relentlessly. Blacks can claim it is justified, but it is tearing our country apart.
Bah. There was plenty of black racism before BHO showed up.
But now it is being institutionalized.
The Bonfire of the Vanities existed before Obama. Zimmerman was in the wrong place at the wrong time. So was Trayvon. It is tragic but Zimmerman did not commit a crime.
Unless some radically new information comes out that totally blindsides everyone.
Which /could/ happen.
Fat chance, but…
One thing I think is true about “the racial narrative”, as with so many aspects of American culture these days…
the ratchet only clicks one way.
Same with the “tolerance” ratchet in general.
If that’s a clockwork metaphor, Rags, bear in mind that occasionally the mainspring may be over-tightened and, in consequence, snap.
“It’s not about racial profiling,” [Trayvon Martin’s family attorney] Daryl Parks declared. “He was profiled (criminally). George Zimmerman profiled him.”
Apparently there was a racist named Martin who profiled Zimmerman and decided to whomp some on him, like racists of old.
Wait a minute, since when is profiling wrong? Did someone forget to tell me? Is the FBI giving it up now? Are police no longer using it? What exactly is he “accusing” Zimmerman of here?
Absolutely. Martin was profiled. He met the profile of a stranger acting suspiciously on private property where there was a recent history of criminal activity.
Twenty years ago, walking across a vacant lot from a friends house to the rear parking lot a a bar where I left my car the previous night, I received quite similar treatment from a Sarasota County Sheriffs Deputy. It turns out there had been a series of early morning burglaries of nearby businesses.
Only, in that case the Deputy actually detained me while he ran a background check. Then released me (after a long, and pointless serious of questions – yes the SCSD is largely populated with assholes.)
Had Martin stayed visible, but otherwise inactive until the authorities arrived I suspect he would have received similar treatment, and likewise been released once his temporary residence had been confirmed.
Unfortunately something happened to change that outcome. So far I have not seen anything at this trial that would prove it was Zimmerman’s actions that changed the trajectory of events that night.
What are the odds that he was actually up to no good, and had he not run into Zimmerman someone would have been robbed?
Uhm. Did he just say TM was a criminal?
Given the weakness of the State’s case so far — at best conflicting eyewitness accounts which themselves create reasonable doubt as to what happened — I can only wonder if the prosecution would have been brought at all had the racial narrative reflected what we now know.
Unfortunately, I think the answer is “yes”. The dream of Martin Luther King Jr, that we should be judged by the content of our character instead of the color of our skin, is further away today than when he spoke those words.
There are too many in powerful people in politics, academia, and the media who benefit by fanning racial and ethnic hatred. This is not going to end well.
When people harken back to that partticular quotation of MLK, it makes my skin crawl. Please read more about what he was really all about. He was not an altruistic progenitor of equality.
Not to do with race but sharing the uber emotionalism that seems to have swept the USA into chaos.
I posted on the tip line the new era of judges demanding that national organ transplant lists be changed to let somebody on a list or moved up .
In Penn parents went on a media campaign to have their terminal Cf 10 year old put on the adult list ( 12 +) especially after Sebellius refused to intervene . Congress reps got into the action & several conservative sites went into emotional overdrive . The kid got to the top of e list , received the lungs & everybody hallelujahed. At had ‘ this week we won a big victory ” etc etc .
Now it turns out the lungs failed almost immediately & she went into code blue & received another set . Her parents lied for weeks but now admit she is in pain & distress for the new lungs have pneumonia & thus a bigger hurdle.
I notice none of the sites have carried the update . Just like the Gz trial – it was the Fweelings that carried the day.
Prosecution witness with cat Leo could be the poster child for the over-emotionalism you reference.
An arbitrary age limit for transplants makes no sense. That ten-year-old was a big as many adults. By what stroke of magic would she be more qualified for a transplant at ten years of age than she was at nine years plus three hundred sixty-four days?
The first set of lungs failed because it was compromised before they transplanted it. This happens sometimes when you must wait a long time for an organ donor to die. My BIL rushed to the hospital for a liver transplant, only to be told that the donor liver was no longer viable. Perhaps they should have done that in the case of this girl.
We have no business establishing age cut-offs for transplants. This is interfering with a doctor’s decision…one of the things you decry so loudly about Obamacare. That girl and her parents went through hell because of a bunch of bureaucrats. If that’s acceptable to you you’re going to love Obamacare.
Oh please. They would have gone through hell if it was the insurance company. They’re going through hell because their daughter is dying and there are just not enough organs to go around.
What is different in this case and because of ObamaCare is that now who gets those organs becomes a political decision. Lobby congress, get favorable media coverage, and get your organs. Sucks for the other people on the waiting list, but there you go.
None of it.
The lying, the overcharging, nothing.
Blacks believe GZ is guilty and if he is acquitted it will be because the white man doesn’t care about little black boys.
That’s all there is to it.
When witnesses lie on the stand it’s because they’re confused by the white man’s trickery.
When witnesses have an attitude it’s because they’re standing up for their black brothers and sisters.
When witnesses are barely literate and barely able to talk in complete sentences it’s because they come from a different world and white people just don’t understand.
Let me spell it out for everyone;
The vast majority of blacks in America believe this is a case of a white man stalking a black boy with a gun and murdering him. Period.
They believe the white man started it. Even if they ever come to believe the innocent black boy was on top of GZ it won’t matter because GZ started it by not minding his own damn business. (Black people don’t call the police. You don’t get up in someone else’s business!)
When GZ isn’t sentenced to 20 years in jail for Murder 2 some blacks will ransack whatever neighborhood they happen to reside in. There will be fires, overturned cars, and unfortunately lots of dead blacks killed by other blacks.
And certain people in positions of power will have a made-to-order training exercise to test their martial law contingencies.
“because GZ started it by not minding his own damn business. (Black people don’t call the police. You don’t get up in someone else’s business!)”
Read this line, and read it over and over and over. This is freaking genius and I’m surprised it didn’t occur to me independently – fwiw, I probably only confer “genius” on comments once or twice a year.
What’s pathetic is that lots of white commenters on the Martin side are echoing black reasoning processes. Maybe they can experience such cultural ethos and move to Detroit for a first hand taste.
you are correct, sir.
they mayhem will ensue regardless of the innocence of GZ.
it’s the only thing certain folk are good it: mayhem and destruction(not education and construction)
ie: detroit, chicago, east st louis, camden, philly and on and on.
noticed the situation in the gov’e schools? destruction of education and violence.
the upcoming flash mob rioters should take note that (if they start in with floridians) FL being a concealed carry state, there will be 100’s of trayvons.
but learning from experience is a foreign concept to those like miss dee dee and her ilk
Did TM profile GZ? From the evidence we have now, I believe that has been proven by a preponderance of the evidence.
did tm profile gzl? a young person often sees sexual overtures from older people as “creepy”.
I haven’t seen any evidence there were sexual overtures except that his childhood friend, on the phone, baited him on that. She was not present, so that was just her wild imaginings.
How many knots did you have to tie your brain into to buy that idea?
Ignoring the word “cracker,” are we? In reference to the Tweets of earlier this week that read something to the effect of: “If Zimmerman walks, Imma kill me some crackas” That’s not racist?
If situations were reversed, and the black man had been referred to as the “n” word, that wouldn’t be racist?
This court has a dilemma that it better be considering. I know it’s being discussed by law enforcement in several large cities. When a verdict comes back, should it be announced immediately as would be the norm; or should the court give law enforcement nationwide a chance to call in all their reserve personnel in preparation for the expected backlash(riots) if “not-guilty. Afterall, GZ is not presently incarcerated. The jury, however, would need to be sequestered a bit longer.
Also, would it be preferable to announce the verdict early to mid-morning, as opposed to later in the day.
I don’t ever recall a situation like this. Even the Rodney King blowup was somewhat of an unknown surprise. Or, at least, the scale of it.
This isn’t Rodney King.
There is no video of Zimmerman gunning down Martin.
What there is video of, is Denny being pulled from his truck, and being slammmed with a brick to his head.
Lessons learned, and in this day in age, “Denny” is armed with a sidearm.
This “Denny” has a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 40cal (folding carbine) he can tuck in his briefcase. It’ll take a 30 round Glock mag, too.
Good choice for sticking in a file cabinet, IMO.
the real question is: WILL POTUS/HNIC take a day off from his world travels and golf tour to speak to “his people” and urge them to refrain from their usual extraordinary behaviors?
Does anyone think that the event of a Hispanic man killing a black man is rare and newsworthy? Happens every night in LA, Phoenix, Dallas, Miami, etc.
News media routinely scan the day’s stories from across the country, looking for something exploitable. This one had the hooks – just like a hit song – that caught their attention. Going in, it had the potentially exploitable features of racial profiling and race-based violence, and as a special liberal bonus, gun violence. So, they pump the crap out of the story till people get hooked in, like it was an episodic TV drama. The media follow whatever issue grabs the most traction, but they push everything possible at first. With the Travon/Zimmerman story, it was the race card that got traction, one of the media’s favorite themes. No gun control talk in a long time with the TM/GZ story, although a couple gun controlistas tried to work that angle when it first emerged. It’s a ratings winner, though, now that the trial’s begun, as big as the Jodi Arias story.
Both the TM/GZ story and the Arias story are tragic, of course, but in a country of 307 million people these were fairly mundane killings. How many Hispanic males have killed a black male since February 2012, when Zimmerman shot Martin? How many women have killed their ex-lover or ex-husband since June 2008, when Arias murdered her ex-boyfriend? These stories stuck because the MSM infected the TM/GZ story with accusations of racism right out of the gate, which stuck like glue in our pre-polarized society, while the Arias story had at its head a Hollywood horror film staple – the hot but crazy girlfriend.
The Casey Anthony story is another example of an otherwise mundane local murder milked for ratings once they got America pumped up on Finding Caylee and Hating Casey, yet another attractive pathological female lead, a la the Hollywood staple.
The minute the TM/GZ story ends and starts dropping in the ratings, they’ll have another lined up soon enough. Bet on it. That’s what the politically corrupted industry of media does, agenda driven by any means possible, all of it justified by the goals of that agenda.
If there are riots, then only one person is to blame.
When he said he would “bring us together” I didn’t realize that Barack Obama meant in pitched battle with one another.
What an awful president. Six percent of the population commits 60% of the violence and not one peep from him to ‘knock it off’!
Quite the opposite.
I do not believe this country will survive. Not because of him, but because we have become a nation that could elect a con-man like him.
Interesting to see what effect Florida’s CCW and ‘stand your ground’ laws have on the extent of the rioting there, though.
Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with this case. It’s a simple self defense case.
I inferred from his comment that perhaps a “Reginald Denny” type might constitute a potentially more hardened target due to CCW and Stand Your Ground.
remeber the korean shopkeepers during the rodney king riots.
locked and loaded
Stand Your Ground may have nothing to do with this case, but it will be invoked repeatedly during the riots that follow the acquittal, as people stand their ground and shoot at the rioters instead of fleeing, as they would have to in some states.
This case was about getting Barack Obama re-elected. Period.
Bingo. Give the man the big teddy bear.
On a local level, it was about getting Angela Corey re-elected. She had taken a bit of heat for how she had handled a high profile case involving a minority and she needed this case to re-bolster her standing in the community. It did just that and she was re-elected, unopposed by a Democrat opponent. Reminds me so much of the Mike Nifong/Duke Lacrosse case. He too was in an election race and that whole case was his chance to pander to the minority community. And we know how that worked out…for him….
Where is Angela Corey ?
As far away from George Zimmerman as she can get.
If,if and if GZ were black and TM white would Corey have taken this to a Grand Jury to indict or not?
I believe the “depraved mind” element of Murder 2 has not and cannot be established.
That leaves Manslaughter which, under FL law is defined as
The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree.
But “lawful justification” under FL law is defined in chapter 776:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—*** [A] person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He [not the jury, say I as explanation]… reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself….
The jury doesn’t have the option of manslaughter.
It’s Murder 2 or nothing. Nothing has the odds.
You are incorrect; it is well established that voluntary manslaughter is an automatically-included lesser charge in Florida when a charge of second-degree murder is brought.
You be the jury.
But, Jim, you always circle back to what the jury thinks is “reasonable”, seems to me.
“I can only wonder if the prosecution would have been brought at all had the racial narrative reflected what we now know.”
Which is precisely why we have public trials and a presumption of innocence, along with a myriad of procedural safeguards, including a group of decision-makers selected from the general public.
Our justice system may not be perfect, but it is a good one.
If anyone missed it there is a link to a powerful re-enactment video at the beginning of the comment section in Andrew’s weekend summary. You get to see Zimmerman walk thru his entire ordeal before he was lawyered up. It fits awfully well with basically all of the actual testimony so far.
BTW, Andrew and William, I feel fortunate to have been directed to this site. I’ve been debating this case on another forum for the last 15 months and had to deal with more than enough Fredrica Wilson type hysterics. Andrew here has been very insightful and the posters have been overwhelmingly educated and aware of the issues.
Althouse posted a theory that I had been also been considering these past few days. Is it possible this trial was mounted to prove Zimmerman should not be convicted:
People were stirred up in Act I because the Martin family refused to accept that police would not arrest and prosecute Zimmerman. The Martin family attorney deliberately ginned up the race machine, contacting the Rev Al to gather a national audience to hear the “facts.” The facts, according to the Martin Family were pretty simple: “A child is walking with only Skittles and iced tea and is killed.”
I tend to doubt the Martin family weren’t told there was more to the decision not to prosecute Zimmerman. They seemed incapable of hearing facts beyond the narrative they chose to believe. Once the wheels were set in motion with Rev. Al and a national media outrage machine details like the “creepy ass cracker” comment were never going to get a full hearing. It would take an entirely different media than the one we have now for that comment to have made a difference.
In an odd way the Martin family charged into a fight much the same way Trayvon did that night with Zimmerman. Watching the reenactment video at Greta Wire it became pretty clear Trayvon wanted a confrontation with Zimmerman. He didn’t want to hear Zimmerman’s facts or clear up any confusion that may have caused Zimmerman to think Trayvon was up to no good when he wasn’t. Same too with Martin’s family and their attorney Mr. Crump. Did Crump ever contact the police to find out why police chose not to prosecute? It seems, according to his telling of events, his first calls were to the media. He wanted a trial and a national spotlight was the surest way to get it.
Now Crump is claiming the case is not about racial profiling or race. He’s a day late and a dollar short coming to that conclusion. It’s too bad he didn’t think that one through before he became so focused on “the elephant in the room” he failed to think it might not be in his clients’ best interest to have a national spotlight on the case as the facts were finally revealed. Both he and Trayvon charged into a fight and saw a very different one unfold than they originally imagined.
Althouse is given (due) respect because of her title.
In this case, in her post, she’s off her rocker. She (I think) knows it, treating her blog like a ConLaw class, ever the Devil’s advocate to “spur intellectual debate”.
Keeps lawyers fully employed, as thus does teachers of future lawyers.
No common sense, no right or wrong, just debate.
Thank God for Professor Jacobson, and his ilk, that actually take a stand.
Althouse has always been silly and more concerned with style over substance. She also said some things during the last election that were so racist in a left-wing fashion that I gave her blog up entirely. There are some good discussions there, but I have zero tolerance for the sort of racism and stupidity she displayed against white people and people on the right.
Plus, she voted for Obama so how insightful can such a person be?
And yeah, the theory about how the prosecution is doing us all a favor by staging this for some sort of public catharsis is as asinine as it is disgusting.
I don’t recall your name, but I left Althouse for the same reason (phantom racist dog whistles), prob on the same day. She’s one of the few lefties that still believes in free speech and will entertain opposing pov fairly but… as regards to race she is compromised (white guilt?) and is simply not credible.
I should have seen it earlier when she refused to change her moderation policy re racial slurs – there was only *one* type that would get you in trouble, guess which?
Sounds good on paper. Unless a guilty verdict is returned and the white Hispanic gets free room and board for a couple of decades.
Ann Althouse said…
In my analysis, the prosecutor’s behavior is evidence of his awareness that he went wrong, and he’s trying to get to the end of this wrong path and on to the rest of his work without having to own up overtly and with some reasonable dignity.
This is typical human behavior.
You may say he should do something more dramatically righteous, but that’s not my topic here. That’s not the sort of thing that normally happens, and this man, like all of us, is not able to change the past.
I find this appalling.
Prefaced, I may add, by an earlier post, in which she explains that the prosecutor, aided by Crump, are trying to tamp down the racial aspect of the case by trying Zimmerman for murder….oh, how righteous they are…truly.
(Insert cursing….by me)
I am not arguing prosecution did the right thing or even the only thing they could in the situation. I would suggest they behaved the way many would in the face of charges of racism. Crump knew what he was doing there. He wanted a trial and a national spotlight and he got it.
I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest the goal of the prosecution is anything so noble as racial reconciliation or even catharsis – though that could be a byproduct for some who watch the evidence unfold. It seems pretty clear charges of racism were directed at the decision not to prosecute as much or even more so than they were towards Zimmerman. We know it is hard to defend against charges of racism and heaven knows we might hope a prosecutor might handle those allegations better than most. The fact remains there is a reason folks like Rev. Al and the national outrage machine use the charge frequently, it works.
If the prosecutors had been able to defend the decision not to prosecute over the noise of the race machine and a president willing and able to help stir the pot, they’d have been public relations wizards. They weren’t, they were human. I am not offering that as an excuse – just an observation. Perhaps the way they chose to defend the decision and prove it wasn’t racist was to give the family exactly what they asked for.
I see ! … I see !
Da woman be saying:
— Justifiable Perjury
— Sacrificial Lamb
— Appease the Mob
Tough Luck, Zimmerman
Perhaps the way they chose to defend the decision and prove it wasn’t racist was to give the family exactly what they asked for.
That standard should absolutely terrify all of us. I’m not critiquing your viewpoint, just the impact it portrays….a judicial system captive to pitchforks and torches.
I just want to be clear that I am not advocating this was a good solution. I would be the last person to suggest the state use prosecutorial powers this way. Zimmerman was overcharged in a trial that never should have made its way to court. I sure as heck wouldn’t want to be facing a criminal trial because prosecutors caved to the mob.
I am merely noting they already caved and are now giving the family what they demanded when their attorney set the race machine in motion. The phrase “be careful what you wish for” comes to mind. Shouldn’t there be a lesson here for the Crump attorneys in this world who are supposed to represent the best interest of their clients?
Althouse gives Crump credit for tamping down the fire under the cauldron he chose to light. I am not so kind. It was, however, a HUGE concession to now admit this case was not about race. Could the prosecutors have convinced him of that point prior to taking Trayvon and his bag of skittles to the national stage? Maybe, if Crump had been less focused on “the elephant in the room” and more focused on his clients best interest.
The national race outrage machine is powerful. There will undoubtedly be future prosecutions who will be forced to defend their decisions against charges of racism. This case ought to serve as a reminder they will be forced to try a case in which they have no confidence on a national stage. I would imagine that is a bit humiliating. There is some potential for this case to make prosecutors and race hustlers think twice before undertaking another debacle like we’ve seen this week. If that is an outcome here than it may well have been necessary. Granted, I concede that is a big *if*.
Aridog, isn’t that already patently obvious?
Yes, it is obvious and that is what bothers me. Not that I can do much about it.
Big BS theory. if Bad Faith Bernie D is so in the tank to correct injustice why does he keep making crap objections to interrupt the defense cross exam. if he wanted to make amends he could just sit there and STFU
IANAL…but I’m relieved to see I was not the only one befuddled, and disgusted, by the stance taken there. I’m usually rather mouthy, but can find little to say about the idea of the prosecution trying to tamp down squat.
There is so much more to this story but you have to keep in mind, the main driving force behind the demand for an arrest was because that opened the door for a civil suit and money under Florida law. A conviction would be icing but not necessary. That’s why there was such a demand using mobs who had been whipped in to a frenzy by a false narrative of events that persists until this day.
Arizona Watermelon Iced Tea and Skittles…two of the three components for Lean/Purple Drank, something Martin was known to, um, ‘enjoy’, from time to time.
Wrong. Utterly utterly wrong. 1) Those are not common ingredients in the mixture. 2) Even if they were, that would be like saying that if someone buys orange juice they must be getting drunk on screwdrivers. The active ingredient in purple drank is cough syrup that is only available in the USA with a prescription. Without it, the other ingredients (usually Sprite and Jolly Rancher) are just soft drink and candy. And it’s the syrup that’s the hard part to obtain. 3) Martin’s blood work shows that he was not on anything that night. He may have appeared to Zimmerman to be acting high, but he was in fact sober.
Didn’t the toxicology report show Martin had THC, a marijuana derivative, in his blood? Thought I read that. Also, he spent something like 40 minutes at/around the 7-11. It has been reported that there apparently is some evidence on the surveillance tape (which probably won’t make it into evidence at the trial) that Martin tried to purchase a cigar, but wasn’t able to because of his age. He then spoke with two other black males who made the purchase. Martin apparently had a fondness for “blunts” which are cigars filled with marijuana. Did he make one that night and smoke it after leaving the 7-11, and is that why it took him so long to get back to the subdivision? We’ll probably never know. THC can remain in the bloodstream for quite a while, so it’s not possible to know if the THC in his blood was from marijuana consumption earlier that night, or from some other time. But one of the things that made George Zimmerman suspicious of Martin that night was his odd behavior — Zimmerman told the police dispatcher Martin appeared to be on drugs.
The THC content in his blood was from old use. There was nothing recent.
This is just a flyer, but someone not used to strong tobacco will act sort of like the way TM was described as acting. I have never observed any other change in behavior.
Suggested just to tidy up a loose end.
The THC and THC metabolite levels in TM’s blood are consistent with using marijuana 12 hours earlier. In effect, wake and bake. He was probably ready for his next high, hence the shopping for Purple Drank ingredients.
Over-the-counter cough syrups such as Robitussin DM can also be used to concoct “lean” (although with a lesser buzz)
And the 7-11 tape (approx 6:15) shows Martin trying to negotiate with the clerk for something behind the counter.
Facebook screen cap from June 2011:
MARTIN: unow a connect for codine?
MACKENZIE: why nigga
MARTIN: to make some more
MACKENZIE: u tawkin bout the pill codeine
MARTIN: no the liquid its meds. I had it b4
MACKENZIE: hell naw u could just use some robitussin nd soda to make some fire ass lean
MARTIN: codine is a higher dose of dxm
MACKENZIE: I feel u but need a prescription to get it
I could agree with Althouse’s theory if not for BDLR being unethical with disclosure a number of times, along with out & out lying multiple times in hearings. I don’t believe the defense has still found out why RJ aka Dee Dee aka Witness #8 and Francine made a trip to Jacksonville in August of 2012, which they have a right to know, to meet with SP Office at state expense. BDLR has also brought dubious perjury charges against GZ’s wife and in affidavit they don’t spell out the perjurious statement(s). Whats that about, a little arm twisting to force GZ to accept plea deal. With an ethical prosecution Althouse’s theory would hold water but I don’t think that’s what were seeing here. To paraphrase Bob Dylan’s song Hurricane:
George Zimmerman was falsely tried
The crime was murder “two,” guess who testified?
RJ and Crump and they both baldly lied
And the newspapers, they all went along for the ride
How can the life of such a man
Be in the palm of some fool’s hand?
To see him obviously used
Couldn’t help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
Where justice is a game.
I had never heard of something called Critical Race Theory until I read this article by Colin Flaherty.
Trayvon, Jeantel and Critical Race Theory: Not just for whack jobs anymore.
Today, Critical Race is more than just a theory. It is an industry, with consultants crisscrossing the globe to explain how White Supremacy, White Privilege and Institutional Racism are oppressing black and brown people. Today more than ever.
The Critical Race practitioners were out in force following the disjointed testimony of Rachel Jeantel at the trial of George Zimmerman for the murder of her friend Trayvon Martin.
Glenn Singleton is not just an obscure academic theoretician casting pearls before undergrad sociology students. He trains teachers at hundreds of school districts around the country in how to bring Critical Race Theory into the classroom so they can “overcome the deeply embedded institutional racism” that is the only reason for the achievement gap between black and white students.
CRT is just the latest ‘bright shiny object’ to deflect from the causal truths which will never be addressed nor repaired, to the symptomatic outcomes which are quite easy and profitable to demagogue.
“There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public.
Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy, and partly because it pays.
Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. …
There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don’t want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public.”
— Booker T. Washington in his 1911 book, My Larger Education
Booker T. Washington, born a slave, founded The Tuskegee Institute,
Frederick Douglass had some interesting things to say too. Too bad many on the left lionize him without understanding how appalled he would be a the current state of the black community.
I especially like Douglass’ thought on boxes:
“the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the ballot-box, the jury-box, and the cartridge-box; that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country.”
Yet these race-baiters are also some of the strongest advocates to “do something about guns.”
The extraordinarily small percentage of citizens paying detailed attention to this case may learn more than they want about the careless class (if that term is suitable). I apply this term to TM’s parents to a fair degree, but there’s not enough information out there for me to truly discern.
Rachel is another story. My spawn have said since middle school that the most bitter, angry and aggressive kids are the unattractive black women, often, uh, big-boned. They learned as kids to just move out of the way and never engage them for any reason. While I heard their stories, I never processed the severity until Rachel took the stand. Got it?!
This isn’t an issue of culture; it’s an issue of civilization. Different cultures, I can handle. Uncivilized is not debatable. The perverse incentives have to go, the subsidized stupidity has to go; and simple decency, common courtesy, and some degree – any degree – of responsibility must be demanded.
What are the odds, in the event GZ is acquitted in state court, that Eric Holder and friends will file Federal charges against Zimmerman for a civil right violation?
So if Zimmerman gets convicted of anything and has to spend time in prison, it looks like it will be a life sentence. He’ll be carried out on a stretcher whether it’s the second day of incarceration or the second year. If he’s acquitted, George Zimmerman won’t be able to exist. Life as he knew it will never be the same. The irony is that criminals rat on their compadres and get the Witness Protection Program with all its benefits, while innocent victims whose life are in danger get what, the finger? I can honestly say that I had no opinion at first about guilt here, but was appalled with the way that Sharpton, Jackson, Lee and the rest of the LSM were driving this case, to say nothing of when Obama sounded off. After a period of time when the evidence started filtering out it appeared that maybe Zimmerman might be innocent.
If my unarmed teenage son was deliberately shot and killed, I can guarantee you that I would demand authorities bring the accused to trial. If they refused to do so and did not give me a satisfactory explanation why, then I’d raise hell and try to turn it into a national media story. I don’t blame the family one bit up to that point.
Unfortunately, they reached out to the worst people they could who they knew would be sympathetic to their cause – the national race hustlers. Sadly, we know from history that once Sharpton, Jackson and the Democrats in Congress who take their cues from them get involved it is less about justice and more about promoting themselves politically and racial demagoguery. That’s another tragedy of this whole thing. But if Trayvon were my kid, I would have done the same.
I can remember the family saying not long after the race hustlers turned this tragedy into a national media spectacle that all they wanted was a fair trial. I believe them and I think they deserve one. Let a jury decide if Zimmerman’s actions were justified. As you point out, whether Zimmerman is acquitted or convicted, he’s got a heavy burden. I doubt a day will go by for the rest of his life that he does not relive in his mind the events of that night.
If my kid did drugs, robbed people and generally aspired to the thug life I would be saddened but not surprised if a neighborhood watch captain had to shoot him down.
If I saw the evidence here I would know my kid was in the wrong and would be man enough to move along without demanding that some other man’s life be ruined to assuage my guilt at having failed my child in so spectacular a fashion.
There are pictures of Trayvon’s father hanging out with gangs and flashing gang signs. How else was his son’s life going to end with that sort of role model? Certainly the likelihood of his coming to an early demise was greatly increased by how he was raised and by the culture with which his parents allowed him to associate.
It is a wicked travesty that Zimmerman should be put through the horrible horrible experience of a trial, the time he has spent in jail, the living in hiding, not to mention the expense, just to make Martin’s family happy. If you would have demanded the same if Martin were your son, then you are a wicked person. What kind of person deliberately forces an innocent person to be tried for murder? Such a person is capable of any cruelty.
Zimmerman is not innocent. He killed an unarmed teenager. That much is not in dispute. So you can stop with the innocent bullshit.
You want the parents to accept at face value the authorities claim that the killing was justified. Sorry, but I don’t trust government that much. If somebody shot and killed my son I want an impartial jury to tell me whether the shooter was justified in his actions, not some government employees.
Martin’s parents did what any decent parents would do under the same circumstances. That you wouldn’t do the same for your dead son, well, I’m glad you aren’t my parent.
He is absolutely innocent. He killed a teenager who was attacking him, and endangering his life. He had every right to do so. The police who investigated it concluded that he had done nothing wrong and there was no reason to harass him. What makes you think they were wrong?
I don’t give a damn what his parents want, or how they feel. They are not entitled to disrupt this innocent man’s life just so they can feel better. A person cannot be subjected to trial without a prima facie case being established that he has done something wrong. There is no such case, as we’re seeing so clearly at the trial. The prosecutor lied on his affidavit and should be disbarred, as should Crump who came up with these lies in the first place.
And if you would want an innocent person tried just to make you feel good then you are a horrible person, and I hope you end up put through this sort of ordeal to make someone else feel better about something that has happened to them.
Oh, and I don’t understand why you seem fixated on the fact that Martin was “an unarmed teenager”, as if either of these factors was relevant. Who cares how old he was, or whether he had a gun? How do either of these conditions mean one shouldn’t defend oneself against them?
“Unarmed” is not relevant. “Disparity of force” is.
The Atlanta Black Crackers (originally known as the Atlanta Cubs) were a professional Negro league baseball team which played during the early-to-mid-20th century. They were primarily a minor Negro league team; however in the brief period they played as a major Negro league team, they won the second half of the 1938 split-season but lost the play-off for the Pennant.
Somehow I just don’t think cracker won’t be misunderstood to be a pejorative.
Mention was made above of a reenactment video. It answers a lot of questions about what happened that night. Yes, it was done by Zimmerman, so may be self serving, but it was done apparently the next day before he layered up. It is also consistent with the evidence we have seen at trial so far.
Not being a lawyer, I didn’t follow Don West’s cross. But with the link you use, here, I see it! To begin this case as a “racially profiled” one, Dee-Dee, herself, instigates it! Because SHE saw the racial profiling in Trayvon Martin’s conversation as the condo’s watchman, honed in on following him. GZ has also contacted the police.
Plus, Dee-Dee KNOWS that Trayvon was violent. Got into fights. And, told her about them. She’s very manipulative. And, somehow manages to contact Trayvon’s mom.
Now, by the way, 45 “tweets” have been removed (or scrubbed) from her Twitter account. Didn’t the judge say to everyone who has testified, that they are not allowed to contact the media. Or use the Internet. Or in any way discuss this case. Don’t these rules apply to Crump, even if he’s advanced as her lawyer. And, not just the Trayvon Martin’s lawyer(s)?
Why does O’Mara need and want the early 30 minutes on Monday, starting at 8:30 AM. Instead of at 9:00 AM, when the jurors come in?
Fireworks. I still contend that it will be some sort of legal action against Rachel. She has perjured herself on several easily documented occasions, which pertain to critical elements of this case.
Hint: Family attorney and intermittent chauffeur Benjamin Crump is out of sight, and his law partner Daryl Parks said yesterday that this case is not about race.(ahem)
It seems that the case for Martin is based on imagination and the case for Zimmerman is based on truth. The left imagines that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin; no evidence of this exists. The left imagines that Zimmerman used a racial slur; in fact, only Martin used a slur. The left imagines that the photos from that night show that Zimmerman wasn’t hurt; they show that he was hurt.
Unless the jury bases this trial on the fantasy world in which leftists live, Zimmerman walks.
Advice to Racists:
1 – You are a very dumb Racist if you
. call 911
. speak to 911 for almost 5 minutes
. tell 911 exactly where you are
and THEN go and shoot someone.
2 – You are a very incompetent Racist if you
. intend to murder someone
. but first get into a Rolling-on-the-Ground fist fight
. get your head slammed repeatedly on the concrete
. have to wrestle your gun away from the guy on top of you
and THEN shoot him.
3 – It’s so much easier to blast him from 2 or 3 yards away.
Why the *sarc* tag? Nothing you said was untrue. Maybe in Florida, in prosecutors’ minds, it is evidence of depravity to call 911 first?
Crump and the complicit media hid or put out video footage that had been altered to hide Zimmerman’s injuries.
They manipulated evidence to go with their race hate case narrative.
And now they deny it is about race or hate.
Does this sound so familiar?
(Hint: Holder, Obama, NSA, IRS,EPA, OSHA)
A missing piece to this puzzle. I thought Hispanic votes are important to both parties. True, you can divide and subdivide these groups into Mexicans, Porto Ricans. South Americans. Cubans. And, thereby make Zimmerman appear as if he comes from a very small base of supporters. While blacks are supposed to be monolithic.
You know way before this trial began there were NO race riots! I was here in Pasadena, when the Rodney King riots erupted. It went from the news clips to rioting very quickly. I even saw (back in the 1970s), NYC erupt in rioting because of a blackout. I was at Broadway and 86th street, when I saw a big Oldsmobile turn sideways … and back the car’s trunk to the sidewalk. Then the hood was popped up. And, chains brought out. Which were attached to the metal grate in front of a jeans store. As soon as the gate was torn open floods of people just ran in and grabbed pants.
I believe the Rodney King riots started at Florence & Normandy. A black “enclave.” Where the first stores hit were liquor stores. After 3 days of rioting and fires, there were a few black neighborhoods than no longer had supermarkets. Years passed before new stores opened. Just to get groceries meant bus trips of more than 3 miles. And, after carting home groceries, the old ladies coming off the buses were attacked by gangs of “yoots.”
I doubt blacks want to see rioting over Trayvon Martin. (They knew he was a violent and nasty kid.) Perhaps this was only spoken in code?
Just to get groceries meant bus trips of more than 3 miles
You talking about Detroit? My kid lives in an expensive new loft in the city core (Woodward & Grand River Ave) and grocery stores have not yet appeared…it’s only been since 1967 when the riot occurred. 49 years and maybe a “Whole Foods” is promised. Maybe.
Now follow up on just who ran the city for nearly all of those 49 years. See our last popular mayor, recently convicted of 20+ federal racketeering charges, and in jail pending sentencing…thanks to his being on parole for state charges previously. This civic mindset did a lot for the city’s youth, none of it good. Somehow Detroit is still there, in virtual bankruptcy (soon to be literal?) while the feds can’t figure out where the ex-Mayor’s stash of money is hidden yet.
Once you do that, and include the school system, you have a good explanation of youth like Rachel Jeantel and her obvious illiteracy. No cursive, little print, and less actual English words, let alone poor cognition of Ebonics even. One step removed from grunts and squeals. One actually feels sorry for her in a general way, if not personal.
Some will call me a racist for noting that she was not born that way, she had to be taught.
Sorry: … last popular mayor… link should work now.
For those who miss my point, it is to illuminate just who creates the negative mindset obvious among supporters of the 2nd degree murder trial of Zimmerman.
To: Bruce Hayden. Thanks for posting that reenactment video.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again: had a black youth named George Zimmerman (it could happen) been killed in presumed self-defense by a racially-mixed man named Trayvon Martin, there’d have been no case at all.
It’s ALL down to the presumption on the part of a certain group that a ‘George Zimmerman’ had to be stereotypically white.
The Crump team thought George Zimmerman was JEWISH. That wetted the anti-Semitist souls of Al Sharpton, Farrakhan and the NBPP and their ilk like nothing else.
When they found out he was not Jewish, not a racist, but a defender of minorities and victims, of mixed ethnicity himself, that didn’t stop them.
They continued with the bullying and threats.
They continued the narrative that they invented and went about getting money from the crackers and honkeys.
That is retarded SIR! (lip curl, snarl)/s/
I may be very wrong as I often am, but I believe Ms. Jeantel is about to become a semi-professional witness in a series of civil actions filed against the state of Florida, certain law and public relation firms, and media companies. The threat of her subpoena should hasten many offers of settlement.
Only if they can keep her sober long enough.
I’d love that to be true, as it would be proper vindication, but she’s hired Vereen as her attorney. I don’t see him as someone who would convince her to flip over; more likely to double down on stupid. But, like you, I am often wrong, amice.
However, the defense could have enough evidence to convince her and her counsel that there is no other choice. We may know in about 12 hours.
Apart from the outright misstatements of fact (see how many YOU can find!)…
that is interesting as a tour d’main in fuzzy.
Another writer won’t let Crump deny the race-baiting farce he created: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/another_race-based_show_trial_turns_into_farce.html
The entire case exists only because Al Sharpton heard “Zimmerman” and “Florida” and jumped to the conclusion that he was Jewish. Had he been called Mesa, or even Smith, none of us would ever have heard of him. In fact he’s not Jewish, and nor is his father, so he’s collateral damage of Sharpton’s antisemitism.
While MAYBE true of Sharpton, that is just silly as a general proposition.
Pres. Snoop-Dog did not care about the ethnicity of Zimmerman. Only the utility of associating with the dead “black child”. For one instance.
Anti-Semitism is the default setting for the PC crowd whether they admit it or not.
The President didn’t get involved until after it was a national cause celebre. He didn’t start the parade, he merely got in front of it and started marching. It was Sharpton and Jackson who started it, and they did so only because they thought they had a Jooo.
And Sharpie and Baby Daddy Jackson were late to the ball, compared to Crump.
SO….!?!? Where does the original “antisemitism” come in?
I think that whoever picked this total non-story out of the hopper and catapulted it to the national stage, was motivated by antisemitism. They thought a Zimmerman in Florida had to be Jewish. If they’d known he was a relatively dark Hispanic person with no known Jewish connections they’d have ignored it just as they do many other such incidents.
[…] there, so the federal case will seek to loot the State of Florida in its capacity of residence to creepy-ass crackers, which is to say that the "Justice for Trayvon" campaign, which has also trademarked […]
THIS article has a helpful summary of the nefarious and early machinations of the Martin Lawyers, Race Industry and media in concocting the ‘official narrative’ for this case.
” at best conflicting eyewitness accounts which themselves create reasonable doubt as to what happened ”
but given the apparent drift of the US to the European model it seems that the jury will respond in the same manner as the French Court of Appeals judging Karsenty guilty using the same evidence after having found him innocent the first time.
I’ve seen some of the legal commentators speaking French, as it were. One, supposedly a defense attorney, said that while some witnesses reported Martin on top and others reported Zimmerman, Zimmerman will have to prove that it was Martin above delivering the blows.
But we’re not France yet. The judge will have to instruct on the burden of proof and the reasonable doubt standard. I haven’t heard any testimony as yet that is even close to that standard.
Not yet, as you say. However, it seems more and more that we are subject to a proof of innocence standard instead of proof of guilt, which is presumed now. That alone should scare us all.
As for proof of who was punching whom, the facial and skull injuries of Zimmerman have been photo graphed, as well as his un-bruised and un-scraped knuckles. What condition were Martin’s knuckles in? Any autopsy photos or notes on the subject?
Autopsy reports that \, other than the gunshot wound, the only injury were abrasions on some knuckles.
Ah, you forget…only ONE side here has ANY burden to prove anything.
Provided Zimmerman’s position is plausible…he walks.
[…] Would Zimmerman Case Have Been Filed If “Creepy Ass Cracker” Comment Known? – Legal Insurrection […]
Please tell me the jury will get to see that video reenactment.
As it stands now I believe only the prosecution can present it as any kind of evidence. The defense cannot introduce it because it can’t be cross examined. It would be similiar to George Zimmerman taking the stand, but with the prosecution having no right to cross examine him.
Yes, Uncle Samuel, what started the race baiters moving was the fact that Zimmerman is such a Jewish sounding name. It was probably thought he couldn’t be named Zimmerman without having a Jewish father. When it turns out there are no Jewish connections, it’s too late to turn back.
While adding “white” to the hispanic’s label seems lame brained to me, because Hispanics want to identify as White! And, they do, in fact, represent a much larger (and desirable voting block to have) by BOTH political parties!
I can’t imagine what Sabrina Fulton (Trayvon’s mom) made of Dee-Dee. Especially when this big boned woman sure looked older than 16! I’d even bet Trayvon was very careful to NEVER speak ghetto lingo around his mom!
So, Dee-Dee (who can’t drive herself) to the Fulton home, is picked up at a friend’s house. So she doesn’t have to expose to the legal team around Trayvon’s mom where she lives. Or even what happened to her mother!
No one offers Dee-Dee a lift to the wake. How could Dee-Dee get there on her own? To whom would she sit by to chat? Did other kids from the high school go to the wake? And, if so, is it possible Dee-Dee was NOT part of this crowd?
One thing I noticed. Like everyone else, Dee-Dee has a huge preponderance of a neck. But if you look at Sabrina Fulton, you’ll see that she packs a large neck, too. (Way prettier than Dee-Dee’s. But to Dee-Dee, who wanted a mom. And, this one, especially, to be her friend, what disappointments lurk in Dee-Dee’s heart … as she is soon to be tossed under the bus?)
Don West is a MASTER attorney. He knew of the “creepy ass cracker” comment going back to the first time he questions Dee-Dee. And, he knows to look for it among Crump’s audio testimony, as well.
For Don West, “creepy ass cracker” was going to unravel the charade.
While very few people see how the “Jewish name” of Zimmerman was so attractive to the race baiters.
Even Obama jumped on board because he thought Zimmerman would have “JEW” spelled out in his genetics.
Well? People may write books. I certainly hope a lawyer comes up with a “brief” KNOCK KNOCK jokes for the legal profession. Here’s one a lawyer friend gave to me:
Knock knock. Who is there? OBJECTION
I would have liked to see this ham sandwich go before a Grand Jury first. This show trial seems to be a very expensive form of reality therapy for Trayvon Martin’s family, friends, and supporters. If I were a FL taxpayer paying for this fiasco, I would be outraged.
Zimmerman is not a jewish name…although that fact won’t preclude people from believing it is.
Zimmerman is a very common German name, meaning ‘carpenter’.
Yes there may be a number of jews bearing that surname, but there are many more non-jews with that name.
Leck mich am Arsch, Goetz. ☺ …
It could be that the German surname fed the storm trooper symbolic attributed to Zimmerman.
Off topic: In a former life I was a tour guide in Germany. I used to do the Heidleberg, Hornberg Castle, Guttenburg Castle (birds of prey show) day tour. I know of your screenname’s notoriety.
lol. You got me. I do not have a silver arm though. GvB was a bada$$.
I lived in Heidelberg for 3 of my 10 years in Germany.
Many Jewish surnames are German. In Florida, someone with a German-sounding name is probably (but not always) Jewish. In Western Pennsylvania they are probably (but not always) German.
Yes, Goetz von Berlichingen. But lots of Americans are not fully aware of European “tree names.” (My own comes from “Hermanos,” of Spanish origin.)
What I did try to say is that when Blacks here the name Zimmerman, they automatically assume it’s Jewish. Which is how the “race baiters” jumped in with both feet. (Including Obama.) They thought, with a little bit of digging, Zimmerman would prove to have Jewish linage. Not carpenter grandparents.
It doesn’t matter, now. Obama has taken the democratic party down an attack route against a major voter base. Who came up with the idea that you can qualify “Hispanic” into “white” and “non-white” groups? And, would you want to do so as you made your party look like it’s a better party than anything the GOP offers?
I don’t know the point where BDLR understood he was carrying garbage into court. Have you noticed all the prosecutors are white? And, non-Hispanic? While Don West and O’Mara have at least two beautiful black gals working at their table?
Dee-Dee is gonna get shoved under da’ bus. (So did Trayvon Martin’s step-mom Alica Martin. Whom I gather is no longer married to Trayvon’s dad. But she was totally involved as a step-mon in raising Trayvon from “infant-hood.” At the funeral, though, she was not allowed to sit in the first row.) Her complaint to Cooper Anderson /?) was that she’s been marginalized.
And, if the step-mom was marginalized … where would Dee-Dee have ended up sitting IF she went? And, tell me, how would she have gotten to the funeral parlor? She didn’t go because she doesn’t like to see dead bodies?
If these funerals are not big productions, then the step-mom, Alicia Martin, wouldn’t be looking to get interviewed so she could be seen by the public.
Oh, Goetz von Berlichingen, thanks for putting the name Zimmerman in the context it would be seen in Europe. But I come from New York City. From my home town Zimmerman is definitely a Jewish name. And, so is Herman.
“What I did try to say is that when Blacks here the name Zimmerman, they automatically assume it’s Jewish.”
…is one of those racist comments we really need not to let go. You may not, of course, have intended it that way but…
you just said that Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Thomas Sowell, Col. Allen West, etc., AUTOMATICALLY assumed that Zimmerman was Jewish because of his last name.
Unless, of course, Carol herself is black and can speak with some authority as to what black people think.
Really? It would be OK for a black person to make such a racist statement on behalf of an entire group of Americans?
Or would it be limited to American blacks? If you were black and French, would you hear “Zimmerman” and think “Oi, a Jew. Mon Deau!”?
(I could go on…and it would amuse me…but I will spare all…)
It was meant ironically, Rags.
Flew right past me. I’ll know to watch next time…
It is a natural assumption. Anyone familiar with the distribution of such names in Florida would make it. But in this case it wasn’t correct.
I am familiar with the distribution of such names.
I did not make that assumption.
Is that because I am not black?
As it turns out, the “creepy ass cracker” comment only further cements the state’s case that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin. You see, Martin wasn’t himself using a racially charged term because he was racist; he was using a racially charged term because it was a racially charged environment, caused by ZIMMERMAN’s racism.
Or so says this moron:
Wow. It must travel in the air…like a penumbra…
Or is that miasma…??? I can NEVER keep those straight…
The professor referenced in the article, Ciccariello-Maher, has likely both taken and taught classes using terms such as ‘phallocentric’, ‘hegemony’, ‘patriarchal’, ‘construct’, et cetera; so I believe we should yield to his obvious intellectual superiority. Who are we to argue!
Well. I dunno WHAT I was thinking…
I got uppity, I guess…
I think it is highly likely that there will be a hung jury. More than one of the jury members will conclude that saving Zimmerman’s life isn’t worth risking the safety of their own families.
The mob has won. They will be soon be visiting you as well, assuming that you are still fortunate enough to have something that they want.
That little 235 year experiment officially ended in November 2012.
Carol Herman asked: “Who came up with the idea that you can qualify “Hispanic” into “white” and “non-white” groups? ”
The federal government did, for the 2010 census. Hispanic is not a “race” in the federal scheme of things….so they had to devise identifiers [modifiers] for race to go with “Hispanic.”
See: 2010 Census Questionnaire Information, and Table 6 with preceding explanations of “other.”
Zimmerman’s arrest and trial has everything to do with appeasing the protesters and little to do with facts and law. What surprised me was the 2nd degree murder charge which I suspect was an attempt by the state of Florida to give protesters what they demanded, while at the same time allowing Zimmerman whom their initial investigation determined acted in self defense, to escape with a finding of “not guilty”.
The real criminal in this case, is the “fear of the black man” which has become institutionalized in our culture and has brought us to the point of suppressing truth and promoting lies; all for the purpose of appeasing those we fear and staving off incivility. If this trial has provided evidence of anything, it is that our society has become slave to political correctness and blacks, who were once the victims of slavery, have become society’s master by dictating our response to all things race related. Lost is our first and most basic right, the freedom of speech and of the press.
As we stare down the likely acquittal of George Zimmerman and prospect of rioting by supporters of Trayvon Martin, our worst fears may be realized. Racism will never be eliminated until all peoples commit to speaking the truth and insist on hearing the truth. Until then, we will continue to reap what we have sewn.
It was meant ironically, Rags.