Joe Scarborough has an explanation for the way Rex Tillerson has reportedly said he’s been thwarted as Secretary of State. On today’s Morning Joe, Scarborough said he would “testify under oath” that Trump administration members said that Jared Kushner “will be the de facto Secretary of State.”

Scarborough later said, “I’ve been told by four people in the administration over the past six months that Jared Kushner was going to be the de facto Secretary of State.”

Scarborough’s statements came during a discussion of this Politico article, reporting that at a White House meeting last Friday, in the presence of Kushner and Reince Priebus among others, Tillerson:

“unloaded on Johnny DeStefano, the head of the presidential personnel office, for torpedoing proposed nominees to senior State Department posts and for questioning his judgment. Tillerson also complained that the White House was leaking damaging information about him to the news media.”

MIKA BRZEZINSKI: Politico says the Secretary of State unleashed his anger at a White House staffer in charge of personnel with Jared Kushner and Reince Priebus in the room. The report said Tillerson’s pent-up frustrations “exploded last Friday.” He reportedly yelled about damaging leaks from the White House and the, quote, torpedoing, of his hand-picked nominees for the State Department.

. . .

JOE SCARBOROUGH: What Rex Tillerson did was patriotic. And way overdue. This White House, because Donald Trump wants his son-in-law to be de facto Secretary of State

MIKA: The guy with no experience.

JOE: — and anybody that knows what’s going on in there knows that. He wants Jared to be the de factor Secretary of State. So they have cut Rex Tillerson off at the knees, every single day. They don’t let him put in qualified people in the State Department, they’re talking about slashing things by a third.

MIKA: They have been doing little events with Ivanka.

JOE: Because they’re thinking, hey, we don’t really need a Secretary of State. Which is basically what they’ve said. Jared is going to be running everything himself. so they are, now they’ve gotten to a situation—they said it—I’ll testify under oath they said it, repeatedly. Jared’s going to be the de facto Secretary of State.

. . .

I have been told by four people in the administration over the past six months that Jared Kushner was going to be the de facto Secretary of State.