One lie is that there is a historically and ethnically distinct Palestinian people, but that lie is so well established that it is beyond argument now. Even if Palestinian nationalism was a fiction created in the last few decades as a tool against Israel, that horse has left the gate. Nonetheless, it is worth pointing out the historical truth as a defense to the war to delegitimize Israel and portray Jews as occupiers.
But it is not too late to deal with the second lie which is unfolding, that Palestinians want a state as part of a solution to their war with Israel. In fact they want a state as a stepping stone to the destruction of Israel. It’s just a tactical move, because everything else has failed.
Whatever they say to the West, always keep in mind what they say to themselves (via Israel Matzav), as in this statement by Mahmoud Abbas in late August rejecting the Quartet principles for a solution and creation of a Palestinian state:
Peace may someday be possible, but it only will come when the people who call themselves Palestinians accept the Jewish state. That has not happened yet. Until then, it’s all just part of the war.
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Lies at the UN? This is news?
I must echo MacsenMcBain, and add: they’ve been searching out the worst offenders to put on various councils. Eventually, the UN will be officially recognized as the place evil people go to get CYA papers. (Never mind that we rape and slaughter women for flashing ankle, we’re on the council for women’s rights! We can’t be that bad….)
William A. Jacobson: One lie is that there is a historically and ethnically distinct Palestinian people, but that lie is so well established that it is beyond argument now.
Actually, genetics supports the existence of a Palestinian ancestral heritage. Analysis of the y-chromosome shows that Palestinians have very deep roots in the area. Just as importantly, Palestinians are very closely related to Jews, who have kept their genetic identity over the two thousands years of the diaspora.
Nebel et al., The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East, American Journal of Human Genetics 2001.
The Arabs are liars? This is news?
Zachriel, the ‘palestinians’ are Arabs. That’s all they are. Connected to Jews through Ishmael, sure, but that’s the extent of it. As far as the land goes, then only with a deep historical claim to the region called Palestine is the, wait for it, Jews! I don’t need a geneticist to tell me that. I’ve got a Biblenwith excellent accurate history.
Juba Doobai!: Zachriel, the ‘palestinians’ are Arabs.
From a genetic perspective), Jews and Arabs constitute a single population with Palestinians being the Arabs closest to Jews. Migration patterns implicit in the data indicate that Palestinians have deep of roots in the area with some more recent admixture from the Arabian peninsula. In other words, Palestinians have kept their genetic identity and their occupation of the area for thousands of years.
See also,
Hammer et al., Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2000.
How can this be when history argues that the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are non more than immigrants from diverse parts of the Arab Peninsula who migratednto the Palesti e region for economic opportunity? What your source cannot tell you is how deep these roots go, while mynsource definitely tells me, and the answer is 5.000+ years for the Jews. The history of Josephus and others do not include those people as inhabitants of the region. I do not recall how many years it was after the epileptic pedophile came murdering out of the desert that the world saw the invasion of the bloodthirsty hordes into other lands to claim them by bloody warfare. However, I do know that the event occurred many hundred years after the crucifixion, and I fo know that the pedophile started his satanic cult in the 7th century.
So, to my mind, the presence of the Arabs in the Palestine region doesn’t mean anything vis a vis the land, neither does any genetic connection to the Jews. You see, my source tells me that Abraham had two sons, one by a bondmaid and another by a free woman. It also tells me that the son of the free woman was the heir, and the son of the bond woman had no share in the inheritance.
It doen’t matter what names they call themselves, they are still sons of the bondmaid, they still have no share in the inheritance. If they were were not so hate filled and genocidal, I might have some fellow feeling for them. As it stands, I constantly have to repent for what I think of them.
Juba Doobai!: How can this be when history argues that the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are non more than immigrants from diverse parts of the Arab Peninsula who migratednto the Palesti e region for economic opportunity?
The genetic data is quite clear. Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine and have retained their separate identity for thousands of years. Yes, Palestinians have often migrated into and back from surrounding countries. It’s the same data that indicates Jews have retained their identity through two thousands years of the diaspora, and the same data that indicates they are closely related to the Palestinians.
Okay, let me simplify my response to what you are saying: bullshit.
The Arabs calling themselves “Palestinians” are A R A B S. The Palestine region, previous to the entry of the Jews, was peopled by a number of folks, some of whom might even have been from Troy, the Kittim. The people whom the Jews displaced several thousands of years ago, were not Arabs. They were Hittites, Amorites, etc. The Arabs we hear about very faintly when the Bible turns to talk about the tents of Kedar. There were no people called Palestinians. The Philistines of Philistia, inhabitants of Gaza, of whom Goliath whom David defeated was one, and whose name likely gave the region its name of Palestine, were NOT Arabs.
Therefore, your claim is bogus and backed by junk science, likely of the Arab variety, with the specific intent of displacing the Jews from Israel, Judea and Samaria and supplanting them with a genocidal Arab occupation force.
Let me repeat: there was NEVER a people called the “Palestinians” in history. Any attempt to claim such and to claim a connection to the Jews and to the homeland of the Jews is bogus. The Philistines were not biologically connected to the Jews, not even in the lineage of David the ancestor of Jesus.
There is no way, no how, no time, the Arabs in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have any deeper connection to the Jews or their land than the garden variety Arab does. I can build a case for Jews owning Medinah and even Mecca and for a Jewish presence there before the pedophile slaughtered them, but you could never ever build a case for the Arabs doing the same to any part of Israel. The Arabs are no more an an occupation force that the Jews are wrongfully tolerating.
You can try selling your rotten grapefruit, but not to this fruit vendor.
Juba Doobai!: The Arabs calling themselves “Palestinians” are A R A B S.
That’s right. From a genetic perspective, Palestinians are as close to Jews as they are to other Arab populations. Here is a graphic of the y-chromosome data:
http://www.zachriel.com/images/Hammer_2000_Jew_Arab_Ychromosome.png
Juba Doobai!: The Philistines of Philistia, inhabitants of Gaza, of whom Goliath whom David defeated was one, and whose name likely gave the region its name of Palestine, were NOT Arabs.
That’s right. They were sea peoples — Greeks. The Canaanites were the indigenous hill peoples.
Juba Doobai!: Therefore, your claim is bogus and backed by junk science, likely of the Arab variety, with the specific intent of displacing the Jews from Israel, Judea and Samaria and supplanting them with a genocidal Arab occupation force.
Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem led the 2001 study. In science, data trumps. Whether the Palestinians want to admit it or not, Jews have deep roots in Palestine. And whether you want to admit it or not, Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine.
One last thing. I heard your Old Lie from the pit of hell from another source: an Arab Lutheran pastor in Bethlehem claimed that his family had lived in Bethlehem for 2000 years or so and were Christians back then. In that case, he would not have been an Arab or a Christian but a Jew. Worse yet, he claimed to have been Christian long before Christ and when Christian wasn’t even cool.
Sell it to somebody else.
So I’m supposed to be impressed because some guy at Hebrew University came up with bogus “scientific” data? Oh, please! Are you that naive? You want me to swallow that because some guy at Hebrew University said it, I must believe that a bunch of people from the Arab world left where they were and wound up in Israel, Judea and Samaria, and that these disparate peoples from Yemen, Egypt, wherever are somehow, I know not how, mysteriously more connected to the Jews than are any other garden variety Arabs. Did I tell you I wanted to buy any bridges?
Had you argued that the HU scientist types had posited a strong genetic connection between all Arabs and Jews, you might have sold me, but being of an academic mind I would have demanded proof. However, that is not your argument. You want to sell a particular which is, that these particular Arabs, the one who recently as of the 1940’s began calling themselves “Palestinian,” though from diverse lands are mysteriously genetically connected to each other; that’s one. Beyond their intra-group genetic tie, this group of disparate individuals also, to a man, have an inter-group genetic connection to the Jews.
Purely by coincidence, this is the same group of charactersnwho are demanding statehood with Jerusalem as their capital, bad chess to ’em, and are demanding the “right of return,” which is to say that Israel, Judea, and Samaria is theirs. Your argument, allegedly supported by the HU types, in effect supports an Arab claim to the land of Israel and the Arab-occupied territories of Judea and Samaria. Your position supports the supplanting of the Jews with the Arabs.
In effect, you are handing me politically motivated “science” of the global warming variety and telling me ‘swallow that’. Do you understand why my response to your claims is ‘bullshit’?
Have you ever heard of Jews who are anti-Israel? I am a product of the academy before it went down the hill more than it was. Logic and history argue against your claims. Science is not and cannot be persuasive in a world in which science is manipulated to serve political ends.
From your name, I am inclined to suspect you are an Arab Christian, maybe an Egyptian, of the Islamic dhimmi type. If you are, brother, flee from your alliance with the pit of hell. Seek the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Juba Doobai!: So I’m supposed to be impressed because some guy at Hebrew University came up with bogus “scientific” data?
We provided a scientific study. You said “Is not.” We provided another study. You said “Is not.” You said it was science of the “Arab variety.” We pointed out it was from Hebrew University.
Juba Doobai!: Had you argued that the HU scientist types had posited a strong genetic connection between all Arabs and Jews, you might have sold me, …
That’s exactly what the science shows.
Juba Doobai!: … but being of an academic mind I would have demanded proof.
We provided you citations to the primary scientific sources. We can’t make you read them.
Juba Doobai!: You want to sell a particular which is, that these particular Arabs, the one who recently as of the 1940′s began calling themselves “Palestinian,” though from diverse lands are mysteriously genetically connected to each other; that’s one.
Well, yes. They are. And modern Palestinians have historical roots in Palestine.
Juba Doobai!: Beyond their intra-group genetic tie, this group of disparate individuals also, to a man, have an inter-group genetic connection to the Jews.
It’s a statistical relationship. About 2/3 of Jews and Arabs in Palestine have a handful of common ancestors in the Neolithic period.
In any case, handwaving doesn’t constitute an argument. If you want to address the data, then we are willing to listen.
All Arabs are genetically connected to each other.
The Jews are genetically connected to the Arabs through Abraham.
The Arabs in Israel, Judea, and Samaria (IJS) were immigrants from other countries in the Arab world and are not indigenous to IJS since Ishmael had no connection to IJS, which is in the region called Palestine.
Still, you argued for “deep roots” for the Arabs in IJS and a genetic connection to the Jews that is mysteriously stronger than that of any other Arab in the ME. In support of this, you said: “Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine and have retained their separate identity for thousands of years. Yes, Palestinians have often migrated into and back from surrounding countries. It’s the same data that indicates Jews have retained their identity through two thousands years of the diaspora, and the same data that indicates they are closely related to the Palestinians.”
There was never a people called the “Palestinians” until the Arabs in IJS, in a bid to undermine the Jewish claim to the land and muddy history in the eyes of the world, chose to so name themselves and establish a non-existent original link to IJS. Nevertheless, LIE 1: “Jews … are closely related to the Palestinians.” By this, you have attempted to establish a connection between the Jews and these migrant Arabs which transcend the connection between these migrants and the other Arabs who didn’t migrate to IJS. Why assert a connection deeper than the existing genetic one through Abraham if a political agenda were not afoot? The specific you are always attempting to assert is what deprives your argument of legitimacy. The specific is illogical; the universal is true: Jews and Arabs share a common ancestry, but no migrant diverse group of Arabs is more closely connected to Jews than is the general population of Arabs.
LIE 2: “Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine.” Really? How deep? Do their roots precede that of the Jews? Is that not the reason for calling these diverse migrant Arabs “Palestinian” … to assert a higher and previous claim to the land that trumps that of the Jews? Who was the first Arab coming out of the desert into IJS? Are their roots deeper in IJS than that of the Copts in Egypt? What deep roots can the Arabs in IJS have if they were constantly migrating back and forth? Migrants do not have deep roots anywhere because they are … migrants.
LIE 3: “Palestinians … have retained their separate identity for thousands of years” in IJS. Really? “Thousands of years”? Now you are displacing the Jews and replacing them with Arabs. Moreover, what “separate identity” can the Arabs in IJS have if they came from different countries each with differences in language use and custom and were, according to you, constantly migrating back to their own countries? Worse yet, you not only displace the Jews with the Arabs, but you also rid the land of them entirely by speaking of the “diaspora” as though there was no Jews remaining in IJS during your specified 2,000 years. The implication of your statements is that the Arabs have a better claim to IJS than do the Jews.
When I follow the train of your argument, I am left with no choice but to decry your position and the supporting research as politically motivated nonsense. No amount of genetics can make up for the lack of logic and ahistoricity of your claims.
Juba Doobai!: LIE 1: “Jews … are closely related to the Palestinians.”
The data clearly indicates that Jews and Palestinians are closely related.
Juba Doobai!: Jews and Arabs share a common ancestry, but no migrant diverse group of Arabs is more closely connected to Jews than is the general population of Arabs.
That is incorrect. Here’s Hammer et al. again:
http://www.zachriel.com/images/Hammer_2000_Jew_Arab_Ychromosome.png
Juba Doobai!: LIE 2: “Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine.”
Again, the genetic data clearly indicates a common origin with the original inhabitants of the area.
Juba Doobai!: How deep? Do their roots precede that of the Jews?
Jews and Palestinians share a common male ancestry from the neolithic.
Juba Doobai!: Is that not the reason for calling these diverse migrant Arabs “Palestinian” … to assert a higher and previous claim to the land that trumps that of the Jews?
The data doesn’t change because of politics. In any case, both populations have deep roots in the area.
Juba Doobai!: What deep roots can the Arabs in IJS have if they were constantly migrating back and forth? Migrants do not have deep roots anywhere because they are … migrants.
Your incredulity is not an argument. In fact, Jews have largely retained their genetic heritage even after 2000 years of the diaspora.
Juba Doobai!: IE 3: “Palestinians … have retained their separate identity for thousands of years” in IJS.
And indeed, the Palestinians have largely kept their distinct genetic identity through thousands of years. Calling it a lie doesn’t make the data disappear.
Juba Doobai!: Worse yet, you not only displace the Jews with the Arabs, but you also rid the land of them entirely by speaking of the “diaspora” as though there was no Jews remaining in IJS during your specified 2,000 years.
Sure there were Jews in Palestine. And they share a common genetic heritage as Jews of the diaspora.
Juba Doobai!: No amount of genetics can make up for the lack of logic and ahistoricity of your claims.
In science, data trumps. Whether the Palestinians want to admit it or not, Jews have deep roots in Palestine. And whether you want to admit it or not, Palestinians have deep roots in Palestine.
“Peace may someday be possible, but it only will come when the people who call themselves Palestinians accept the Jewish state. That has not happened yet. Until then, it’s all just part of the war.”
That is the bottom line. This talk about genetics is meaningless, frivolous and fruitless. People who call themselves Palestinians must accept the State of Israel, and more, thank their lucky stars she exists. Israel benefits everyone in the area. Everyone should be grateful for Israel, and if they are not, they deserve whatever they get.
Every nation in the Levant depends on Israel. If Arab states were interested in so-called “Palestinians,” they would have backed down “Palestinian demands” long ago and encouraged them along the lines of civil, productive society. But no, Arab states (and the Mohammedan Brotherhood, who pretend as the World State) keep “Palestinians” beaten down and heated up to express their racist disapproval of Jews (“They’re not Semitic any longer, they’re Germanic and Slavic.”) even while their own economies and welfare depend absolutely on what Israelis do and can do. Arabs, and especially Mohammedan Arabs, are a sick, sick lot. Fighting their benefactors, yet. We see the same pattern in the majority of Black Americans. When they come to terms with reality, and accept it, specifically the state of Israel, then they will have peace and not before.
The Christian Arabs are often despicable. They perpetuate the Muslim slander of the Jews as if doing so will spare them the scimitar at the neck. One of the biggest lies they spread is that Israel is responsible for the Christian exodus from Bethlehem and other such places. Only in so far as Israel turned those areas over to the Muslims, who then immediately began persecuting Arab Christians. The lies about Jews these so called Christian Arabs tell is sickening.
Palestinians are the riff raff of the ME. They are all arabs. They came from all over the ME and their home countries don’t want them back. When Israel was formed the Palestine area was very sparsely settled but look at it now. Every tinpot arab came to the Palestine area for the goodies the US and the rest of the west gives out. Certinly, the ME countries haven’t supported them in any way. The only use the ME countries have for this riff raff is as a hammer to beat Israel.
Look at what this scum did when they took over Gaza. They destroyed all the greenhouses the Israelis built to feed these idiots. They depend on their electricity and other utilities from Israel. Do they seriously think they will have such amenities in a Palestinian state? After 63 years they still don’t have electricity. If Israel cuts them off they are toast. After seeing what they have done to their women, I have zero use for any of the muslim countries of the ME. They are not worth saving or helping.
I disagree on this. There’s nothing inherent in the Palestinians but rather a political culture in which they have been used as pawns. That doesn’t excuse their own conduct, but we don’t need to condemn them as a people. As the current economic growth on the West Bank shows, much is possible once the political conditions are right.
Wm, history proves Barbara right. Nobody wants the Arabs in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. Ask Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon why.
Economic growth hasn’t altered the fact that they teach their children to hate and kill Jews. No amount of economic growth changes that genocidal indoctrination factor.
Besides, what is the “this” exactly that you disagree on? Which fact of hers?
I’m a mild-mannered, happy person (well, happy except for the occasional periods when I fall into a deep depression).
I can calmly accept leftists badmouthing America and blaming it for any number of ills in this world. It’s irritating … but not surprising … and with a smile and humor I can argue with them until the cows come home. America is big and most Americans love her … she can withstand the attacks.
But when they badmouth and blame Israel and Jews for the worlds problems, I feel my blood start to boil.
Just a mere few decades after The Great Lie led to the most sinister genocide in history (and to lefties who respond that many more Russians/Chinese, etc., lost their lives than Jews in crimes against humanity in the 20th Century … I say the key words are “most sinister”) once again Jews, this time in the nation of Israel, are under an unrelenting attack of propaganda … which, because of the sheer repetition and myriad other dynamics acting against Israel (e.g., the worldview of 90% of journalists forming “world opinion” … the self-righteousness of many Europeans thirsty for any ostensible criticism of Israel to bring the Jews down to their moral plane in hopes of erasing the burden of guilt of recent history … the jealousy of third-world nations’ leaders whose dysfunctional failures teeter in stark, embarrasing contrast to a prosperous nation arising in just decades from the hard work of a people who were almost exterminated), has become an unshakeable article of faith for an alarming percentage of the world’s population.
After that run-on rant, let me be brief: U.S. out of U.N. & U.N. out of U.S.
If this madness about a supposed “international community” and its Orwellian “world opinion” is going to be the standard operating procedure for this sick body of representatives of so many loathesome regimes … kill it off.
At the risk of repeating myself (I’m well aware I repeat myself too much … my wife repeats this criticism often … it’s just that my memory being what it is … I can’t remember what I’ve repeated too much …) I look at the leftist anarchist hipster in my office as the perfect distillation of the left’s attitude towards Israel and Jews.
I’ve set him straight a number of times about what he calls “Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people,” but to no avail, at least yet. (I’m hoping as time goes by he’ll ponder why I won our little debates … that maybe it’s not just because I’m better at debating, but because I have the truth on my side).
What really got me going was when he started talking about Jewish bankers … how money is everything to them … how they only hire other Jews … how this sinister set-up unduly influences world opinion and policy through “the rich Jewish/Israel lobby.”
How can a view that can be debunked in seconds with a single logical question have such a hold on so many people?
I just asked him (paraphrasing here): If all they care about is money, won’t they hire whomever is most talented and thus will make them the most money, Jew or Gentile, and if what you say about moneyed influence is true, why does Israel have such awful P.R. and why do so many people think like you do?
It just never registers. More and more I’m tempted to chalk it up as a form of mental illness. Multiply this dork’s representative views by a certain factor … and you have the United Nations.
LukeHandCool (who is behind in his two accounting classes already and doesn’t have time for this … he knew he shouldn’t have taken “a quick peek” at LI today)
If you need help with your accounting study, please feel free to contact me via e-mail. Just put an underscore between the words “lonesome” and “picker” and send it to the popular domain that starts with a Y (There! That should fool the spam-bots!) I majored in accounting in undergraduate school, and it was one of my two fields of concentration in graduate school, and I’m happy to help.
Haha! Thanks Iowa Jim! That’s very kind of you to offer!
But I’ll be fine. I don’t find my accounting classes difficult … I am just the world’s worst at procrastination … I’ve organized my sock drawer, clipped my nails … taken a “quick peek” at LI.
I’m finding that the time I’m supposed to save taking these latest classes online is being frittered away surfing the internet. I might have to go back to taking classes in a traditional classroom.
Maybe in a couple years when I take the CPA exam I’ll take you up on your offer! 🙂
LukeHandCool (who is finding online classes to be convenient in some ways … but who misses walking into the classroom on the day of an exam and being greeted with, “Oh no … there goes the curve!” 🙂
Actually, it sounds like you’re pretty good at procrastination.
[…] One of the currents in the news lately has been the unilateral Palestinian push for a UN declaration of a Palestinian state, a move largely brought about by dangerously incompetent Obama administration diplomacy (1). This declaration is founded on two Big Lies: the first is that Palestinians are an ethically and historically distinct people, deserving of their own state — not true. (via Legal Insurrection) […]
[…] One of the currents in the news lately has been the unilateral Palestinian push for a UN declaration of a Palestinian state, a move largely brought about by dangerously incompetent Obama administration diplomacy (1). This declaration is founded on two Big Lies: the first is that Palestinians are an ethically and historically distinct people, deserving of their own state — not true. (via Legal Insurrection) […]