Ace reports:
You know what Jews really don’t like?
Jews for Jesus. I have a lot of Jewish friends, and they almost all go banana-sandwich over this. They don’t like the invitation to conversion. They do react as if what is being discussed is nearly a hate-crime….
But a bunch of dirty-tricksters are playing Jerky Boyz touchtone terrorists games in NY-9:
“The campaign of Democrat David Weprin sent out a press release Tuesday accusing supporters of Republican Bob Turner of organizing an effort to jam the Weprin campaign’s phones. In response, Turner communications director William O’Reilly noted that Jewish residents of the district were receiving phone calls from a phony group calling itself “Jews for Jesus for Turner,” which he called an attempt to scare Jewish voters.”
I so hope this jagoff goes down.
As I wrote earlier, winning Jewish votes for Republican candidates requires getting around Jewish hostility towards religious Christians, and I doubt that there exists a (nonviolent) entity more reviled in the Jewish community than Jews for Jesus.
To elaborate on Ace’s explanation, Jews for Jesus is particularly disliked, even compared to other proselytizers, because they have been accused of particularly deceptive proselytization tactics, and because while Jews for Jesus calls itself a Jewish sect, Jews perceive them to be practicing a form of Christianity that happens to also incorporate many Jewish aspects laws and holidays, albeit with meanings and explanations tailored towards Christian theology (Some Christian denominations, such as Seventh Day Adventists, also do this, but without calling themselves part of Judaism).
This is not the first time that Democrats have tried to exploit anti-Jews for Jesus sentiment for political gain. Sarah Palin was attacked during the 2008 campaign because the executive director of Jews for Jesus, speaking at Palin’s church in Wasilla, claimed that Islamist terrorism in Israel was divine punishment for the Jews rejecting Jesus. Palin of course came out strongly against the sermon.
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Comments
Yes, and the primary reason we don’t like it–well, the primary reason I don’t–is that it’s blatantly, elaborately, viciously dishonest. There is no such thing as Jews for Jesus or Messianic Judaism in the sense they use these terms. By definition, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you’re a Christian, not a Jew. End of subject. Doesn’t matter if you were born Smith or Rabinowitz.
They’re still ethnically Jewish, aren’t they?
I’m not defending them (they’re big boys and girls who can speak for themselves), I guess I just don’t get the meltdown they apparently invoke. I don’t flip out when a Mormon/Seventh Day Adventist/Jehovah’s Witness knocks on my door.
This is one thing that has always confounded me. I have several Jewish friends who are ethnically Jewish but religiously agnostic. It would seem to me, all this “Jews for Jesus” nonsense could be solved by differentiating the religious beliefs of Judaism from the ethic Jewish traditions. Perhaps by declaring those ethnically related to the region “Hebrew”? Just a thought
CC, I don’t know what religion (if any) you are. But for sake of argument, let’s say you’re Catholic. Whether or not you’re devout and go to Mass daily, if, say, a Muslim showed up at your door claiming to be from Catholics for Allah, requiring that you pray five times a day and recite Latin suras, you might get it a little better.
Then there’s the fact that, for millennia, Jews have been persecuted far more than any other race/religion–specifically because of their race/religion. Being a little touchy about this is understandable (and btw, Jews don’t proselytize).
Anyway, regardless of what some alleged scholar says, an ethnic Jew who accepts JC as his lord and savior is not Jewish religiously. By definition. He’s a practicing Christian, the same as someone born Episcopal who converts to Islam is a Muslim.
Read your Bible. There’s no such creature as an ethnic Jew because the word itself speaks of a faith relationship with God. No faith, no Jew. No need to insult Catholics with this Catholics for Allah stuff because Allah contradicts the Judaeo-Christian foundation of Catholicism. A Catholic for Allah is a pagan since Allah is a false deity. A Jew for Jesus is simply testamental. Nothing unusual there. That’s how Christianity was spread … by Jews who believed Jesus is the Lord. If they were wrong, the would be no Christianity today, especially given the persecution by the Jews and the Romans in the early days. Life is interesting, eh?
Juba, it makes no difference what you say, God says otherwise. Being Jewish has nothing at all to do with faith; the Children of Israel is not a religion, it’s a nation that has its own religion. Membership of that nation is defined much like American citizenship is; one can become a citizen by birth or naturalisation. Any child of a Jewish mother is a Jew, no matter what he believes or how he behaves. Even if he becomes a Christian or a Moslem or an atheist, he remains a Jew, just as someone born on US soil remains an American even if he joins Al Qaeda.
A foreigner can become a citizen by naturalisation, for which there are rules and procedures; a new citizen may be required to make a sincere pledge of allegiance to his new nation, and to demonstrate belief in the values for which it stands, but merely believing and feeling that is not enough to turn a foreigner into a citizen. If a Frenchman truly believes in America, speaks fluent English, knows everything there is to know about American history, eats hot dogs and apple pie at every meal, he’s still not an American until he is naturalised in a ceremony governed by laws and regulations, and administered by a person authorised by law to do so. Similarly, a gentile may sincerely believe in every word of the Torah and the Talmud, and practise every one of the 613 laws in all their details, but if he does not undergo a proper conversion ceremony in front of a court authorised to perform it, then he is not a Jew, while the born Jew who stuffs his face with pork every day and worships idols every night is a bad Jew but still a Jew.
That’s just the way it is.
Dr. Michael Brown considers himself a Jewish Christian and is a semitic scholar and theologian who was born into a culturally Jewish family. After being a drug user in his teens, he had a Christian conversion experience and changed his life around. He became a scholar of Semitic languages (from NYU) so he could answer Jewish objections to Jesus he came across from the rabbis his father sent him to. This is now a 5 volume set and I think, after all the volatile emotionality, his arguments are worth considering.
Christianity s a subset of Judaism. Get used to it. There’s Orthodox, Reform, and various others, and there’s also Christianity which is essentially Messianic Judaism. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like it or agree with it. It’s 2012 years old, Jesus is still a Jew, Christianity was promulgated by Jews, the Christian Bible begins with the TNK of the Jews, and it will all remain like that until Jesus comes again. Get used to it. Embrace it cuz Israel needs every bit of help she can, and she can’t rely on American Jews, for the most part.
Except that it isn’t. Christianity started off as a group within Orthodox Judaism (which was pretty much the only kind there was, then). But within a generation Paul totally reformed it, and brought in hordes of gentiles who never became Jews, retained their pagan attitudes, in particular their antisemitism. By the end of the 1st century CE, Christianity was an antisemitic pagan sect.
You know what I’m yearning and itching to hear? Jews don’t like Marxism, like Christianity, that was another thing founded by Jews. Stop worrying so much about the Bible thumpers and keep your eyes peeled on the Marxists. They are the ones who are the threat. Not us.
All that the Turner folks would have had to was play a clip of Barry O looking at the prime minister at the press conference. That was hate that I saw in Barry’s eyes.You can’t fake that.
Yesterday I noted, The highly illiquid Intrade contract for the NY-9 election gives the Republican a 70-90% chance of winning; the Democrat, 20-30%. Fwiw.
As of this writing, the only thing that’s changed is that the Democrat’s odds have widened to 1-30% (sic). In other words, if you want to cut your losses on Weprin, nobody is willing to take that contract off your hands.
As of this writing, the only change at Intrade is that there are not any Turner contracts available for sale. My interpretation is that potential contract sellers believe Turner will win.
To repeat: this is an illiquid, inefficient market.
Puzzling to me. I have no dog in this fight–being neither Jewish or Christian. But, I have a good friend that is a Messianic Jew; his view is (as I understand it) that Christianity arose as a Jewish sect and that he is part of a nearly 2000 yr tradition.
I am not a believer, but am sympathetic to those that are. It would seem to me that believers are under attack, in general, and ought to stick together as much as possible. Most Christians I know a pretty solidly behind Israel, solidly opposed to anti-Semitism in general.
It is puzzling to me that Jews are so threatened by Christians. Outside of a few nut cases, I don’t think anything close to mainstream Christian thought can be described as remotely anti-Semite.
I can relate to your puzzlement. The years following 9.11.01 all I ever heard from my Jewish neighbors in Manhattan was that “Bush is Hitler BUT he must stand for Israel”
As one not involved in organized religion I have always thought such bizarre duality was strange to hear ‘Hitler Bush must defend Israel’. I support Israel however if American Jews think Bush is Hitler then what am I to do?
Gee whiz, Ahmadinajad received a better reception in NYC than Bush!
Those days were as strange to me as they are as strange to see Egyptian magazines today portray Netanyahu as Hitler. WEIRD.
Then again, Guiliani was the Hitler before Bush the Hitler before Netanyahu the Hitler. I have filed away a pre-2000 Village Voice ‘cartoon’ depicting Guiliani dressed in the Hitler garb.
The oddest of all is that THE Hitler was a Lefty Progg-leader of the National Socialist Workers Party which dipicted cigars as dirty black people for dirty smokers. I have a file of that propaganda piece which the NAZI Party used to ban smoking in public. Ironic to say the least.
In any case; Organized Religion has lots of problems, none of which have anything to do with God or Jesus.
Look at history through the ages re Jewish treatment by Christians and everybody else and you will understand about this subject. I imagine the Jews feel these people are traitors of some kind. I doubt they will ever forget. It could be looked on as Christians converting to Islam…Abraham was the father of all three religions..a spin off if you will. It would be pretty much the same thing. Joining the oppressing religion voluntarily.
Wasserman (U.S. House editor of the nonpartisan Cook Political Report) calls it for Turner: http://tinyurl.com/6xjw2gw
Matthew links to an ADL article to support the accusation that Jews for Jesus engages in deceptive practices. The article’s argument is this:
“Jews for Jesus, the leading organization dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity, has long been a concern because of its aggressive proselytizing with a deceptive message: that Jews who accept Jesus as the son of God and their savior remain Jewish.”
But this is simply begging the question by obfuscating the difference between genetics and religion.
I hope no one is arguing that Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah cease to be genetically Jewish.
I have close friends in the Jews for Jesus organization, and I know none of them would ever claim to be followers of rabbinical Judaism. But if not being a follower of rabbinical Judaism makes one non-Jewish, then why doesn’t the ADL get as upset about Jewish atheists, Jewish Buddhists, and Jewish Hindus as they do about Jewish Christians?
Is there some reason Jewish Christians should not be allowed to celebrate holidays like Passover, which Jesus kept with his disciples?
So the ADL’s accusation is simply the kind of mud-slinging one resorts to when one doesn’t have a good argument.
Second, Matthew recycles a false story about the executive director of Jews for Jesus, David Brickner, whom I am honored to know personally. David’s response to this story is available here:
http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/realtime/63/01
Finally, accusations such as that of BarbaraS that Christians are responsible for the horrible persecutions of the Jews miss the mark. Does anyone seriously argue that the Nazi’s were behaving according to the teachings of Jesus? It’s a mistake to conflate “gentile” with “Christian”.
It should also be noted that the The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition established by the Catholic Church occurred 1480 while Martin Luther’s Reformation did not occur until 1520.
To cast accusations of persecution upon all of Christianity using one single denomination’s activities seems to be a case of misguided generalization.
That’s like saying Fred Phelps Church represent all Christian Churches in America, which of course is wrong-headed and delirious.
The reason pretty much all Jews hate J4J is pretty simple: J4J pretends that they are practising a legitimate form of Judaism, and that you can join them while remaining a Jew in good standing. You can’t. Becoming a Christian means abandoning the Jewish God and the Jewish people. Sure, an apostate remains Jewish; nothing can change that. But he’s an apostate, a traitor, an idolater; it’s pretty much the worst crime a Jew can commit against his nation. For 2000 years Christians have been pressuring Jews to convert, and Jews have resisted, and were willing to die rather than convert; along come these frauds who say you can have it both ways, and some of the less savvy members of the tribe fall for it. That’s why they’re worse than ordinary missionaries who don’t hide what they’re doing.
But what about Awing1’s point that atheists and agnostics are still considered Jews? And there doesn’t seem to be an outcry among Jews about their apostasy. Maybe this response is more emotional than rational?
1) At least they’re not idolaters; they may not believe in God, but at least they’re not in open rebellion against Him. It’s one thing for an American to be disillusioned and not believe in the ideals of the founders; it’s quite another to join al Qaeda.
2) Nobody’s missionising for atheism or agnosticism, and claiming that “it’s OK, you can be a good Jew even if you don’t believe in God”.
“1) At least they’re not idolaters; they may not believe in God, but at least they’re not in open rebellion against Him. It’s one thing for an American to be disillusioned and not believe in the ideals of the founders; it’s quite another to join al Qaeda.”
It depends on how you define idolatry. Progressives have replaced God with the state. That looks like open rebellion to me.
‘2) Nobody’s missionising for atheism or agnosticism, and claiming that “it’s OK, you can be a good Jew even if you don’t believe in God”.’
You’re kidding, of course. The universities are full of proselytizing atheists.
You seem to be willing to use any ridiculous excuse to avoid an honest argument about whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. That’s all Jews for Jesus is asking for.
Believing Christians should understand the Jewish attitude to apostacy; how would you feel if someone persuaded your gullible young sibling or cousin to become a Hindu? What if you came home to find a family member bowing to a statue of Ganesha the Elephant God, and sacrificing a bowl of milk to it? If you’re really a Christian, you’d be horrified. Their immortal soul is in deadly danger, and you’d be furious at whoever persuaded them to do it. Well, that’s how Jews feel about your religion; it’s idolatry, paganism, worship of strange gods, and you need only open the Old Testament to practically any page to see what God thinks of that. This is why Jews have for 2000 years been willing to martyr themselves rather than become Christians; we don’t really see any significant difference between Jesus-worship and Baal-worship. This is an irreconcilable theological difference between us; we can respect each other and work together on most things, we can agree about almost everything, but we can’t pretend that this one difference between us doesn’t exist or that it isn’t important.
If you’re really a Christian, you’d be horrified. Their immortal soul is in deadly danger, and you’d be furious at whoever persuaded them to do it.
I am a Catholic, and you are mistaken. Perhaps I would be horrified at their choice but, recognizing that there can be no true religion without freewill, that includes the ability to be led astray.
Certainly this would put their soul in jeopardy, but anger, directed at either the proselytizer, or my friend – who is the person ultimately responsible for his act – is both un Christian, and also generally unproductive.
We are followers of Jesus. Jesus got angry sometimes, but never over anyone struggling with issues of faith. Love and prayer are the answer.
I suggest you read Deuteronomy 13:7-19. That’s God’s own words. Jesus certainly didn’t repeal them.
Really? Would you really attempt to kill a member of JfJ who approached you?
But aside from that literal interpretation you might also consider that the admonishment is guidance for one being the enticed. It does not address the appropriate response of a believer who has found out someone else has been enticed to change religion – which is what your hypothetical involved.
Jesus certainly didn’t repeal them.
And there it is. I can acknowledge the validity of your faith qua faith. But you simply cannot extend me the same dignity.
Or perhaps you are not aware that, for Christians, Jesus is the Lord God. While there remains an Old Testament, we also have been given a New one. So was anything repealed? No, but much was added.
You may choose not to accept a bit of it, but if you refuse to acknowledge that others have do so then your problem lies not merely with Jews for Jesus, but with all of Christendom.
If there were a court available to whom I could inform on J4J and have them arrested, tried, and if convicted executed, I would do so. That’s what Deuteronomy tells me to do. But there’s nothing in there authorising me to take the law into my own hands.
Jesus said he wasn’t repealing the law. So it’s still in force. You can’t have it both ways.
It strike me as rather odd that people could be so offended by the hardly subtle Jews for Jesus, yet fail to be bothered by the blatant misdirection and dishonesty of the progressive left who, by design (Alinsky, and others), pretend to the title of ‘moderates’ or ‘centrists’ yet in substance are nothing of the sort.
Yes, if you are an open follower of Jesus you are undeniably a Christian (even the Mormons get a free ride due to this) and should probably refrain from claiming otherwise.
And yes, I’m sure there are devout Jews who see a fundamental difference between religion and politics, or maybe don’t even pay that much attention to the political spectrum. But let’s be realistic here, there are many more Jews who are not that devout, and even others whose real religion is their politics. That latter group certainly knows better, and should not get a pass on the duplicity, either from their coreligionists or their polity.