Highland Park Shooting: Suspect Robert Crimo Charged With Seven Counts of First Degree Murder
The suspect had a fascination with mass shootings and rapped about it.
Authorities arrested Robert E. Crimo III, the suspect in the Highland Park, IL, Independence Day parade shooting.
Crimo faces seven counts of first-degree murder after a seventh person died today.
- The authorities keep saying “high-powered rifle.” They won’t name it for us.
- Crimo dressed in women’s clothing to blend in with the crowd as they dispersed.
- Still no motive.
- Still no charges.
Buried within all the news reports is this nugget: “Police said the 22-year-old suspect was ‘known to law enforcement.'”
BREAKING: Robert "Bobby" Crimo III has been identified as the person of interest in the deadly mass shooting in Highland Park, Illinois (near Chicago). Six were killed & dozens injured at the July 4th holiday parade massacre. #HighlandPark pic.twitter.com/sgjxB0G6aT
— Andy Ngô 🏳️🌈 (@MrAndyNgo) July 4, 2022
Here is the arrest video of #HighlandPark mass shooting person of interest, Robert "Bobby" Crimo III. He gets out of a vehicle with his hands up and lays down on the ground per the police commands. pic.twitter.com/oAJJClzUr4
— Andy Ngô 🏳️🌈 (@MrAndyNgo) July 5, 2022
Here is part of a disturbing 2021 music video featuring the #HighlandPark parade massacre person of interest, Robert "Bobby" Crimo. He used the name, "Awake, the rapper." pic.twitter.com/P1u36DBYTt
— Andy Ngô 🏳️🌈 (@MrAndyNgo) July 4, 2022
Highland Park is about 30 miles north of downtown Chicago.
A gunman from a roof opened fire on the town’s Independence Day parade. He killed at least six people and injured over 20 more people, including a child.
Crimo is supposedly “Awake the Rapper.” From Fox News:
Crimo is the son of Bob Crimo, president at Bob’s Pantry & Deli in Highland Park. According to his Facebook account, the father ran for Highland Park mayor in 2020.
The rapper released a cryptic track called “Are You Awake” on Oct. 15, 2021. The track appears to suggest that Crimo was planning a life-defining act beyond his ability to stop. The video includes drawings of a man aiming a rifle at another person.
The video also includes an image of a newspaper clipping about Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated President John F. Kennedy, and another image of a victim shot with blood spraying from the body.
Crimo has an obsession with mass shootings.
Here are some lyrics:
“Like a sleepwalker, I am unable to stop and think,” he says in the track. “My actions will be valiant and my thought is unnecessary. I know what I have to do, I know what’s in it, not only for me, but for everyone else.”
“There is no past or future, just the now,” he adds. “It is more abstract than I can ever imagine. I can feel the atmosphere pushing me in. It’s unstoppable, like a wave pulling me under, I can’t breathe without it.”
“I need to leave now, I need to just do it. It is my destiny, everything has led up to this,” Crimo says. “Nothing can stop me, not even myself. Is there such thing as free will, or has this been planned out, like a cosmic recipe?”
“It is what I’ve been waiting for in the back of my head, ready to be awakened, It is what I’ve been sent here to do, like a sleepwalker,” he adds.
Highland Park Mayor Nancy Rotering said charges might be filed later today. I found that most states follow the 72-hour rule meaning they can hold you for 72 hours without charges.
Rotering also said the gunman legally obtained the gun but didn’t provide any details.
It’s infuriating to see the left already trying to politicize the tragedy by calling for gun control and condemning everyone but the alleged shooter in custody.
We do not have all the facts yet. Everyone needs to remember Illinois has strict gun laws.
Jill and I are shocked by the senseless gun violence that has yet again brought grief to an American community this Independence Day. As always, we are grateful for the first responders and law enforcement on the scene.
I will not give up fighting the epidemic of gun violence.
— President Biden (@POTUS) July 4, 2022
In Illinois, a person must have a Firearms Owners Identification card (FOID) in order to buy guns and ammunition.
Courts keep ruling FOIDs unconstitutional but the Illinois Supreme Court always punts them.
As of May, the Illinois Supreme Court is reviewing the constitutionality of the law…again.
The Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence gave Illinois an A- for its state gun laws. Yeah, that means they’re pretty restrictive.
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Comments
I like how this (and worse) happens in Chicago every GD weekend but no one cares until it hits whitey town.
I don’t think it’s a matter of caring. It’s just the “other “people in all those shootings each weekend, it’s just expected behavior. Therefore, it is not newsworthy.
What is newsworthy is the shooter is white.
Man-bites-dog and man-bites-man vs dog-bites-man and dog-bites-dog.
By definition – every Antifa rioter should be Red Flagged.
How did Crimo pass the background check?
https://justthenews.com/nation/crime/least-5-dead-several-hospitalized-shooting-illinois-forth-july-parade
“Crimo had two previous encounters with law enforcement. In April 2019, someone alerted the Highland Park Police Department one week after learning about Crimo’s suicide attempt. Because the report was delayed, officers spoke with Crimo and his family rather than taking him into custody.
“The matter was being handled by mental health professionals at that time. There was no law enforcement action to be taken. It was a mental health issue handled by those professionals,” Lake County Sheriff Sgt. Christopher Covelli said.
Crimo’s second interaction came in September 2019 when a family member told officers about Crimo’s sizeable knife collection. The family member said Crimo said he was “going to kill everyone.””
How hard would it have been to catch this? This guy not only looked like a nutty kook but was already advertising it. You can’t hide crazy. Everyone who knew him knew that. Come on people, wake up!!!
Not really the majority of mass shootings are committed by young white men
Fatty did you take a break to see how much more wrong you could get?
Mass shootings are defined as 3 or more victims. The vast majority are committed by gangs….by far (there aren’t many white ones in case you didn’t know).
Before you say that the definition is flawed, you are correct but that is the cooked statistic (along with suicides) that your side uses to push the “epidemic of gun violence” narrative.
I grew up in Flint, it the Ghetto cancer started spreading in the sixities, we bailed out in 67. That cancer has spread to encompass most of the city today, and has now spread out to the east and west of the city, in large part due to section 8 housing. Ever since the sixities, the city has preyed on people outside the city, one scam after anouther. There water issues were another scam, the biggest and grandest so far.
I have learned the hard way that you can take someone out of the ghetto, but you cannot thate the ghetto out of them.
Maybe it isn’t so much the location, as the skin color of the wackjob. Seems like he went after his own tribe so to speak… Black on black crime seldom gets reported, and that is on purpose..
Remember the Christmas parade last year? Six people also died and dozens injured just like the 4th of July parade. But the 4th of July parade shooter was white. He gets attention. The Christmas parade killer was black and not newsworthy.
One used a car and one used a gun.
One was black and one was white.
One got attention, one did not.
The left was not trying to ban cars at that time
The important difference is #1, not #2. Car v gun. As Taurus says, there’s no campaign to ban cars, so there’s no incentive to pump that story up.
But it’s also a fact that that story did get plenty of attention, for about a day, until something else pushed it off the front pages. This shooting will also disappear the moment something else happens to soak up all the attention. Notice that nobody is talking about the Buffalo shooter any more. And the Texas shooting is only still being discussed in the context of the police screw-ups, not the shooting itself. So the difference in how the two incidents are treated isn’t all that great.
Well, suppose that the parade goers were mostly black people and a murderous white driver ran over them and killed them on purpose?
Plug that into your scenario and then tell me there would be no difference in how it was reported or how long it would be in the news cycle and whether Biden would visit, etc.
As soon as the media learned that the driver was black, they stopped talking about it. It’s a pattern we see and document here at LI all the time. But people still insist that it’s not about race or gender or whatever and that the media is just mysteriously uninterested in “local” crime when it doesn’t involve a white (and rightwing) perp. Go figure.
I don’t think there would be a significant difference. It would get pushed off the front page by the next shiny object to come along.
I somewhat agree with you. Race does matter in media narratives but they didn’t want to let the narrative that you can mass kill in crowds with something other than a gun get away from them. That was the most important thing for the big govt worshipers to tamp down.
What happens in Chicago every weekend isn’t “mass shootings”, it’s a lot of individual shootings, each of which only kills one person. Mass shootings are much much rarer, but because of that relative rarity they’re much more headline-worthy. They get a lot of publicity, and they scare people much more than individual shootings, for a few reasons:
1) The publicity makes them seem more common than they are.
2) They take place in an ordinary safe-appearing setting, where anybody could be. People who live in or visit a bad neighborhood know there is a chance this might happen to them, but people watching a parade in Highland Park shouldn’t have to worry. News like this makes such areas feel less safe than they actually are.
3) With normal shootings there’s only one victim per incident, so the danger to any individual is not that great. Even if you have the bad luck to run into some nutter, maybe he’ll shoot someone else instead. But with these shootings there is no “instead”. It’s unlikely to happen to you, but if it does you’re very likely to be shot because he’s shooting as many people as he can.
Sorry, it is not acceptable to me that 54 people were shot (7 deaths) in Chicago over the weekend. Gee, those 54 did not live in a safe-appearing neighborhood. Those are “normal” shootings? Do you seriously not understand how callous your words are? One of the 54 victims (who survived) was a 10-year-old boy, who was hit while in his bedroom.
Either this kind of violence is condemned or it’s not. If shootings only matter (or matter more) when they happen in the same place at the same time in the “good” places, I find that sickening.
Nobody doesn’t condemn those shootings, or pretends they’re acceptable. But they’re a different creature from mass shootings, and a lot less scary. When you’re in a bad neighborhood you expect bad things to happen. It’s a bolt from the grey, not from the blue. It’s dog bites man, not man bites dog. Mass shootings are unexpected, so they’re scarier.
Normal shootings vs. scary shootings.
Got it.
He’s right. Criminologists have shown, over and over, that if you’re not hanging out in the wrong places with the wrong people doing the wrong things, your chances of getting murdered dwindles below that of a lightning strike. Some countries have more than their share of wrong places. Others export wrong people. The USA is one of the few countries that actively imports them.
Yes, exactly. That is the difference. It’s just like the difference between “assault weapons” and regular weapons: they’re exactly equal, except that “assault weapons” look scarier. That’s why Congress banned them for ten years. (Thankfully that can’t happen again, now that the supreme court finally stopped ignoring the 2A.)
@henrybowman
The exception of course being mass shootings, which are pretty common in the US
@Milhouse
Again BS, their was a significant drop in deaths directly as a result of the assaults weapon ban
No, they are not. They are quite uncommon, only a few dozen a year, which in a country the size of the USA, and with the USA’s demographics and general crime rate, is not a lot.
Of course if you deliberately manipulate the definition in order to inflate the numbers, as the dishonest hacks at the “Gun Violence Archive” do, you’ll get a lot more, but if you use the same definition in other countries you’ll get a lot more there too. But they never do. When discussing other countries they use incredibly exaggerated definitions in order to minimize the numbers, while when discussing the USA they use minimized definitions in order to maximize them.
No, there was not. The ban had no effect whatsoever on deaths, which is what you would expect since almost no murders are committed with these weapons. This is something ev
Milhouse is right in explaining why there’s a difference in perception. “Ordinary” people feel fairly safe in their world, partly because they avoid “those sorts of places.” So, whenever a “random” shooting is publicized, there’s a mass reaction among those “ordinary” people who suddenly feel threatened.
Your point is correct, however, that we should care about those other shootings. Because they are happening where we do not adequately extend the force of civilization that is nominally under our care. (“Our” being rhetorical here; I don’t vote in Chicago, that I know of.) It is more difficult to get “ordinary” people to care about it, however, since it “isn’t their business” or it isn’t in their part of town.
Human beings much prefer to live inside a bubble that shows them peace and security than to step out and challenge life in any way that involves risk.
It adds to paranoia that any and everywhere is unsafe. of course, no place is absolutely safe. Quite the comparison of this shooting with the guy mowing down a parade with a car with one less fatality but far more injuries. That crime has been hushed for political reasons while this one is front and center.
I was caught by Dr. David Baum who witnessed the shooting saying the bodies were “exploded”. We had the same description by the pathologist at Uvalde. Rifle shots are more damaging than handguns and I imagine both doctors have never been around such injuries nor hunted. In that limited knowledge base, the perception of the AR and such is amplified.
I do understand the frustration and revulsion but lets be real and honest here.
Unlawful possession and discharge of a firearm is already illegal.
The crimes the guns are routinely used in are already illegal.
Murder is already illegal.
Point is, its already “condemned” and another “harsh letter” condemning it more isn’t going to help.
It doesn’t seem to “matter” to the politicians and judiciary in these high crime areas because they have the resources to aggressively do things to reduce it but they refuse to.
They refuse to prosecute, defund police, give weak sentences, demonize those who enforce laws, give huge settlements to the families of those who don’t deserve it.
And the list goes on.
I suggest that that is what’s “sickening”
By “normal” shootings, he means those 54 people were shot by something like 50 other people, usually their business or social competitors.
When one person kills six and pegs dozens for no discernible business or social purposes, that’s “unusual.”
The progressive fascists don’t care about those shootings because no whites were involved. They are just using these shootings to violate the 2nd amendment because individually owned firearms are an obstacle to the fascist utopia they seek.
Do you think the dead and wounded people and their families care how they were shot? I don’t. It’s just because the progressive fascists and their media are racists and need incidents like this in their campaign to disarm our citizens.
And who makes some places bad places? Shit culture, shit parenting, shit ethics, all make shit holes.
using a gun to settle a conflict used to be the absolute last resort, now it appears that with many people and in many areas of the country it has become the first resort in conflict resolution.
There is also an element out there randomly shooting out there, why ? Is it because there is minimal fear of being caught and locked up in prison for extended periods of time for using a weapon?
Each shooting only kills one? [citation needed]
Actually you are incorrect…3 or more shot at a time often resulting in some fatalities…happens every single weekend in Chicago
No, actually a lot of mass shootings defined as four or more fatalities (not including the perp) do happen in Chicago. But, here’s the catch. In order to skew the statistics toward white villains the groups that do the counting don’t count mass shootings linked to gang or terrorist activities.
But if you simply count mass shootings as four or more fatalities, not including the shooter if he’s killed, over 70% are committed by blacks.
As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. Who wants to do the 97% consensus on catastrophic anthropogenic global warming? Please? Pretty please?
It goes back to these basic facts and how the left will try to weaponize them
There is no “gun” problem (violence or otherwise)- there is an individual problem.
“Mental Health” is a meaningless buzzword- these are evil people.
Short of making a direct threat ( which is already actionable in every state)- there is no magical method that can reliably predict when someone makes a conscious decision to commit murder. Taking legal action without that direct threat is a legal quagmire.
We do have all the “facts” we need.
A person made a decision to become a mass murderer and then acted upon it. Why and how don’t really matter. There’s no mental illness involved ( this guy is mentally “normal” by every accepted diagnostic standard)
Then again, the left and the RINO’s do not want to solve or fix anything.
“this guy is mentally “normal” by every accepted diagnostic standard”…that then makes the HOW and WHY they decided to become killers even more important to understand.
Because when you can understand the REAL drivers for this behaviour is when you can begin to make the changes actually needed (outside of armed guards and citizens everywhere) to address the causes of this kind of behaviour.
What if there are no causes? What if, as Christians believe, there is a literal Devil who is constantly trying to turn people to evil, and occasionally he scores a huge success? How do you prevent that without infringing on people’s basic rights?
For those of us who believe, yes there is a devil ( and his host) temping people to sin but that’s not applicable in this context. (because even though Satan can “tempt” test or trial) to sin (fall short of a goal or legal requirement)- he cannot FORCE it)
Man also has a “sin nature” so he will sin regardless of Satanic influence. That’s not applicable either.
There is no possible “prevention” known to exist (prevention defined as a legitimate “stoppage” measure) for any human decision.
The bottom line is that the “cause” is the individual’s decision to perform the act. (whatever “motivations” or inputs don’t matter as they vary in a multitude of details and levels of influence to the individual and some decisions are made with little to no forethought but on impulse)
Even “evil” ( defined as something bad or hurtful- not necessarily a violation of a law or sin) can be defined at the end user level.
So, “The devil made me do it” defense wont fly anywhere.
Then your last- without infringing on another’s right. That too is impossible.
The left knows this which is why all their bantering about “prevention” doesn’t actually prevent anything just as their proposed solutions don’t “solve” anything.
Its all about disarming as a prelude to domination.
Milhouse, I believe that both you and mailman are correct.
There may well be a demonic component to this kind of evil behavior, but the Judeo Christian tradition holds that such urges can be at least suppressed, if not corrected. The traditional remedy for “demonic” impulses was a religious one. We can argue about the efficacy of religion (some religions, that is) to address these impulses, but it seems clear to me that we had much less of this behavior when we had a more religious population.
On the other hand, Mailman’s statement is valid, insofar as there may well be other causes that can be addressed to minimize these outbursts.
It makes no difference what the “how and why” are and here’s why (no pun intended)
An individual made the conscious decision to plan and execute a mass murder. His “reasons’ are unique to him and him alone. ( they may not be understandable to anyone else or even in the same thought process)
That makes them virtually worthless in any meaningful analysis of a general population or use as a tool to identify and drive any changes.
They tried this with violence in cartoons and all kinds of pseudo-science. None of it has had any effect and it never will.
There is no direct linear cause- its a personal decision based on an individual mental processes which may or may not be the same as anyone else’s. ( even linear cause & effect cant apply)
There is no magic formula where we can determine if we do ( or don’t do) “this” then said behavior will stop for the population at large. Wishful thinking but impossible nonetheless.
The real drivers are a lack of morals in our society and nihilism that gnaws away their soul.
I wonder if this guy, too, spent a lot of time in discord channels with a retired FBI guy.
I think a lot of the How and a big chunk of the Why can be answered by the FBI.
Is anybody else waiting for the Photo of Mr. Antifa at the J6 capitol riots dressed as a Trump supporter?
Will these do?
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/07/breaking-chicago-news-channel-wgn-obtains-picture-highland-park-shooter-drag-attempting-evade-police/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/07/breaking-exclusive-information-uncovered-overnight-shows-highland-park-shooter-bobby-crimo-tied-socialists-progressives-antifa-occult/
another classic “lone wolf” incident–that a firearm was used is really incidental–a nutter like this is just as likely to use explosives, flammables, vehicles, etc.
an armed/trained citizen could have handled this–kudos to leo for a swift pursuit and capture
condolences to the victims/their families
Scalpels and other blades are the weapon of Choice in most homicides.
I don’t think an armed and trained citizen could have prevented this. The police couldn’t prevent it either; all they could do was identify him and track him down later, which is a job for them, not for ordinary citizens. Some things just can’t be prevented; that is not an argument against the RKBA.
As one specifically trained and experienced in counter terrorism, I do not see how a civilian ( individual civilian, presumed armed with a sidearm) could have effectively intervened and or prevented this shooting.
This was allegedly a rooftop sniper hide attack- just given the range/elevation and cover- it would be virtually impossible for any sidearm ( even bench models) to have been able to effectively engage.
Regarding counter-sniping, even a fully equipped sniper could not have effectively engaged the shooter unless he had a direct field of fire and almost real time target acquisition. ( that would have been a million to 1 luck to have been in the right place at the right time with the right weapon)
Lastly, contrary to Hollywood, defensive techniques are the aggressors game. It is simply impossible to assess and anticipate every possible avenue and method of potential attack and then devise an effective defense.
Agreed. There is no way I’d be shooting upward, at distance, at someone on a roof with my 365XL.
Not at you but for the benefit of non tactical shooters based on your commentary here….
Forgetting the inherent lack of long range accuracy ( assume 100 ft on the slope from ground to target) the typical sidearm has
Shooting upward with traditional sights ( no optics) means you have to cover the target with the bottom of the weapon ( you don’t have BDC’s) so you lose sight picture and eye focus.
Plus ( sun angle/shadow) you may not have a clear eyeball sight picture ( too much noise)
Then we don’t know how much actual cover ( something to stop a bullet such as a masonry opening) or concealment ( hiding stuff) the hide had so there may not have even been a humanly visible sight picture from the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_rule
Actually, you don’t cover the target with the bottom of the weapon – you actually aim low, whether or not you are shooting up hill or down hill. The math is a little complex, but it works 🙂
Spare me your keyboard bullshit expertise JH and now shut up and listen to those who actually do this and try to learn.
First, the RIFLEman’s rule does NOT apply to a HANDGUN ( different sighting plane) plus mechanical differences affecting downrange accuracy which is what we were discussing.
Next- the RR ONLY APPLIES to a rifle that has sights CALIBRATED for X & Y with the weapon tilted (Yeah, I train people how to do that- conventional sightings will throw it off) That’s a whole different matter and is its own block of instruction that the average person doesn’t know how to do in the spur of a moment.
Next- that “math” is at best “abstract’ and even then ONLY when you have MATCH ammo, a RANGEFINDER and accurate ballistic computer. ( most people don’t carry that stuff like my wrist Foretrex)
Now, do you have any more links you don’t fully understand that you would like to share?
Unless you were Elmer Keith, the uphill/downhill issue is moot. I don’t understand this “bottom of the weapon” sighting thingy. There are several limited aiming concepts such as “stress fire” but just using regular sight picture aiming at the target is all there is for short-range shooting. Concealment is a “condom”… limited protection used for only a short time.
@ Alaskabob
You are another one who clearly has zero subject matter knowledge and would be better off remaining silent and learning and stopped with the ‘I don’t understand” part because clearly you don’t.
First, when it comes to neutralizing any sniper in an elevated position- it certainly is NOT “moot’ . (That was stupid even for you to make that statement)
Depending on that incline and range and defilade ( hypotenuse)- he “may” be “under your round” for a LOS engagement so you have to switch to AP for a more ‘direct” approach. (concepts you wouldn’t understand and not readily available on google)
The rest of your commentary is a superfluous word salad with no applicable bearing on the subject.
Dear Taurus the judge
I never was commenting on taking on a sniper on roof top. That is not a tactical problem solved at street level. That requires either counter at equal or higher terrain or direct interdiction. I was just pointing out at a handgun is short range and clearly not used at ranges where elevation correction is an issue. Obviously you missed the point of Elmer Keith whose long range use of handguns is famous. He was the father of the 357 and 44 magnums.
Quite the leap pushing me to the curb. Let’s see… hum…. numerous courses in rifle and handgun including LFI-1 with Massad Ayoob, IPSC, silhouette, and high power with both 308 and 223 (Remington 40-X and AR with 1:8 twist Boots Obermeyer barrel assembled by Randy Gregory). Shall we discuss Hornady ELD-Ms versus Berger VLDs? Maybe 168 gr Sierra with 41.5 grain H4895, IMI match or LC brass with CCI BR2 primers or Federal 210Ms at 2.810 OAL?
I fully understand your points. A CCW in this case is useless except maybe for distraction. By the time anyone figured out what had happened ….he was gone. Leaving the rifle was dumb….whatever it was.
Did I mention the 6×6 elk at 300 yards downhill with a 300 win mag, 200 gr Sierra GameKing and RL22? Or the Cape Buffalo?
Tone it down, please, Taurus. If someone feels that you are attacking them, pushing them to the curb in this case with our long-time and valued readers like alaskabob, you will never win them over on any point, ever.
Dear Fuzzy:
Thanks… The irony is that I understand and agree with TTJ on these issues and a lot of people really are not up to speed on some of this. It’s easy at times to assume everyone is a novice or basing assumptions on limited knowledge.
It’s can be a reminder that someone out there may know more than just the basics. I was in Argentina wreaking havoc on doves back in 2014. One of the hunters was a portly older gentleman. Striking up a conversation that first night, I suddenly realized that the older gentleman had a hell of a lot more knowledge of shooting and I was treading water in the deep end of the pool with Middleton Tompkins. I wasn’t even up to “grasshopper” status and enjoyed his time with me.
There is so much mis/dis/mal-information that overwhelms with emotions. TTJ has probably had his fill of it also. As I wrote in a letter to one of the gun magazines decades ago…. “liberty, like good health, once lost is hard to regain.” We are seeing liberty taking serious blows now… from many angles.
It’s all good, Bob, and I understand. It’s very interesting to read Taurus’ comments; he seems to have life-long or in-depth experience at everything from being a cop on the beat to being a judge to being various types of engineer to being a special forces operator and more! I find him very entertaining . . . until he made you feel pushed to the curb. That upset me (as you can tell, heh).
We can all learn from each other. I found that the top shooters would gladly talk about loads, techniques and practical information… because in the final analysis, it was what was between the ears that made the difference (plus some genetics!). Watching them made it clear that they were in another dimension separate from the rest of us. Winning? Out of the question! Learning? And how!
Looks like I hit a nerve, didn’t intend to start a massive flame war 🙂
I know pistol sights are closer to the barrel than rifle sights. And I know rifle iron sights are closer to the barrel than a rifle scope. And I know that you can choose to zero your pistol, or rifle, in all kinds of creative ways. But the “rifleman’s rule”, which deals with the parabolic arc that every bullet travels, whether from a 1.85” barrel from an LCR357, or a 24” barrel of a Remington 700, means that shooting up or down hill, your point of impact will be higher than intended for a given distance.
Now, of course, a pistol that is subject to the “rifleman’s rule” will definitely depend on what range it is zeroed for. Past that range, you’ll generally have to account for drop, and for something like a tiny 22LR, you might have aim much higher than the front post sight, even shooting uphill. Most pistols come from the factory zeroed in at around 25yd. At 100yd, a 124grain 9mm will have maybe 10” of drop. Depending on the angle uphill or downhill, I’d guess the offset might be some reasonable fraction of that.
Now, if we’re talking say 10” of drop, shooting at a 10” target, you’re now aiming at about the chin to hit center mass, so yes, technically your weapon will be “covering” the chest you’ll end up hitting. Aim up hill or down hill, depending on the angle, and now your point of aim might be at the collar bone, or the upper chest.
Anyway, hope that clears up my point a bit – I may have glossed over the drop depending on the round/zero, and maybe that was the initial intention.
@ Fuzzy
It was not my intention as much to challenge as to simply correct on a point of fact ( as opposed to an opinion)- sometimes things do get hot but as you can see from other posts, when I’m wrong, I have no issue stating so. When challenged on a point, I don’t have to google a response because I do know the subject.
Differing opinions are wonderful and the beginning of knowledge share (I agree) but there are better ways of expressing differences of thought (Yes, that applies to me as well- I admit to being heavy handed at times)
In the end as they themselves have stated, my original points as they relate to the subject and criteria stated still stand. Much of the information submitted is severely out-of-context and misleading to a reader who is not familiar with this particular subject.
Also, as you notice, with the later posts clarifying the points above- they were not relative and were in fact not applicable to the specifics being discussed. That’s why I got so “strong’ in my rebuttal. Not to turn people off or to win them over but simply to correct errors of fact.
Let me clear up a few things.
Being military LE is just another MOS ( where Is started) and given the time (Carter- during the Iran crisis and impending Reagan upgrades)- rank (stripes) and huge bonus’ were offered to young NCO’s to switch specialties and go Combat Arms and I simply took that option.
Never been a “judge” (The Taurus Judge is a PISTOL, not a judiciary appointment)
Not an “operator” in the traditional sense either.
The rest is just normal stuff in the engineering career fields- nothing special or unusual about any of it. ( other than working with the US Govt in capacities I’m not at liberty to speak of)
Thanks taurus the judge, appreciate having the chance to reconcile.
If you (or alaskabob, or fuzzy slippers) are ever out Georgia way, I’d love to take you out for a meal, or hit the range and chew the cud 🙂
Well TTJ, I will still stand by my “opinions” also. By the way, I do recognize your moniker. I own a Taurus Raging Bull in 480 Ruger … to ward off bears when bear spray won’t do the necessary job.
jhkrischel … it’s a deal. By the way, I used to live near Macon back in my high school days. The town was Gordon, near Milledgeville. Its only claim to fame was Sherman tearing up the railroad. Years ago when interviewing for medical school at Eastern Carolina University, the physician asked about my background and when I mentioned Gordon, he asked me to describe the town. Then he went on to fill in more detail as he also had lived there. Always good to be factual and back it up.
I agree no “good guy with a gun,” cop or otherwise, could have PREVENTED this.
As to addressing it as it was happening, two words: Charles Whitman.
was there that monday morning
That was going to be my point. You might not be able to take the gunman down, but suppressive fire has its value.
But all of that does require Taurus’ prerequisites: identifying the location, at a minimum, and knowing enough about your weapon to be able to adapt to the circumstances. (And, interestingly, I don’t think any tactical course I’ve ever seen outside the military addresses multi-story threats.)
I basically agree GW but with a few caveats and to educate the readers a bit on how this works in the real world. (I doubt this kid was even remotely capable of any of this nor the average lone wolf shooter but we have to assume “eventually” there is going to be an organized attack somewhere).
Suppressive fire is a wonderful thing ( the pew pew factor) but only when its controlled and coordinated. Otherwise it can be indiscriminate and aid the sniper or even kill the good guys.
The big thing is the sniper (by this term I don’t mean a lone shooter with the media title, I mean the real professionally trained and experienced sniper, possibly with a spotter too)
If he is a “real” sniper and has several hides in close proximity ( and a spotter makes it worse) the “suppressive fire” is an EXCELLENT target locator for the sniper. (that works both ways just like a tracer)
Now there’s an “elevated” sniper- the best defense there is direct or indirect fire or a drone. Unless one can get on a level (or elevated) or maneuver to overtake him- the odds are not in the ground pounders favor.
Granted, a sniper by definition has slower rate of fire and limited ammo so he will lose the war of attrition but the sniper’s best defense is visible and acoustic “invisibility”. The professional sniper isn’t going to pop off 30 rounds so you cant miss him.
Snipers mean that “From a place you will never see comes a sound you will never hear” stuff.
taurus
am not superman but have been around a bit–there have been several instances over the last year or so where alert, capable armed citizens prevented a potential mass casualty event–a church in north texas comes to mind but there have been a few others–agree that a “lone wolf” attack is virtually impossible to interdict/prevent however, an alert/capable armed citizen can certainly limit/curtail the body count by being aware and acting–proximity is key of course but having the means is second–we’ve all got to move past the “it could never happen here at this parade(baseball game/church social/concert/city council meeting, etc.) to “it CAN happen here” and use our senses and radar accordingly–with antifa/blm/other garden-variety fascists/pure nutters in the mix we can no longer afford to be complacent(and stay alive)at one of these public events–by “handle” meant shoot/kill the nutter in this incident given proximity/opportunity to do so–obviously not someone with proximity/opportunity to take this guy out and that’s a damn shame
@ Texan
We were not discussing the generic scenario where a GGWG could interdict a Bad guy WG. I think we both agree that an armed citizenry is proven to be an effective deterrent as well as situational mitigator in many cases. ( too few in my mind personally)
I don’t disagree with anything you said in general. Actually, I vigorously agree with it.
In your original post, you referenced this situation specifically and only and I corrected it in this specific incidence only for the reasons already brought up.
Over at Ace of Spades HQ, a contributor noted that shooter added rose emoji to his blogs and one pic showed him in black mask and helmet…. Either antifa or wannabe. It will be interesting to see how tolerant, inclusive and diverse his family structure was to get him to this point. To me, this is the proof positive of the bargain made by the Dems and Media… formula crime…the promise of aggrandizement for using this type of firearm …a Fast and Furious for the marginal members of society. Leaving the firearm conveniently for police to find and running away. Who were his social media contacts. Any with alphabet connections?
So, Biden didn’t blame the Governor this time. Interesting.
STOP using his name. That’s what he wants. That’s what ALL these idiots want.
Can’t we just refer to him as ‘That cowardly POS’ from (fill in the town)?
How is it nobody knows about ‘him’ or his type but invariably ‘he’ is known to law enforcement? No one says anything I guess because for years society has condemned anyone who judges anyone else.
Yeah, we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. We must affirm everyone’s self-esteem at all costs. Or something.
It is obvious from one mere glance that there were only two suitable places in the world for this freak: a mental institution or the Biden administration.
The guy looks like a character from a Tim Burton animated movie.
You know, he really does.
I see it.
What prescription drugs has he been taking?
all of them?
BINGO! We have a winner!
Certainly a strange looking sort.
Understatement of the year.
He looks like a cartoon villain, Batman maybe. Creepy.
Kamala is on the way to settle things down.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/07/05/kamala-harris-set-for-chicago-visit-in-wake-of-july-4th-shooting/
Crimo III is the son of a prominent Highland Park businessman who just ran for mayor recently. This is obviously a gun control problem. Too many unemployed trust babies with too much time and money on their hands.
The father has, evidently, not instilled any common sense or sense of proportion in his son. I don’t normally associate face tattoos with the children of allegedly promined business people.
The children of prominent business people are not necessarily any more stable than any others. Too many examples abound (*cough*Paris*Hilton*cough*). The latest is the kid who decided to change its sex and name and disown its father, the richest man in the world. Now there’s a decision it will never regret, and I’m sure we’ll never see its name in a future headline.
In my experience, highly successful business-people tend to share a common characteristic… they’re hard-core workaholics (and also often alcoholics). While they may love and care for their children, they’re simply not around very much. Throw in enough money to give Junior whatever he wants, and you’ve got a formula for trouble.
Bobby II did not raise Bobby III, nor did the mother. The same is true of Musk and his offspring. This is the norm, and the shooting is the result.
I’ve read that he was inspired by video footage of other such massacres. If so, this might have been prevented by “common sense speech laws” that would ban the publication of such footage. Sure, that would violate the first amendment, but aren’t lives more important than laws made by dead white slave-owning men, like a hundred years ago? If the second amendment is negotiable, then why not the first?
Also, if this person was “known to law enforcement” then this could have been prevented if only they had arrested him before he could do anything. Sure, that would violate the fourth amendment, but again, dead white slave-owning men. Saving lives. Think of the children.
In Japan the police search each home twice a year, just on spec. If we did that here, maybe they would have found something in his home that could have tipped them off that he was planning something like this, and they could have arrested him (see above). Once again, fourth amendment, think of the children, blah blah blah.
You get the picture.
Yeah I get the picture and mostly agree with your assessment.
Not from you because you are just repeating what’s in the media but i want to specifically and exactly know..
What does “KNOWN TO LAW ENFORCEMENT” actually mean? (especially in context with actions prior and post for these shootings)
Today, this phrase in itself means next to nothing. It could mean he has a DUI, a fine or arrest for weed, driving without insurance, owning a misbehaving dog. It’s the person who has no digital police footprint who is the rarity in this day and age.
I basically agree but have the feeling there is a sinister motive attached to the phrase.
They are not constantly bringing it up for no reason.
Having lived in Japan for seven years, most of that time residing in apartment building where I was the only non-Japanese tenant, I can categorically state that this isn’t true.
Since was a very active member of the NAF Atsugi Trap and Skeet club I got to know several Japanese gun owners who as properly licensed hunters and shooters were allowed to use their own shotguns at the ranges.
It’s almost impossible to legally own a handgun. Essentially to get a pistol license an individual has to be practically an Olympic-level competitive shooter. Since it’s impossible to get to that level of skill unless you’ve been shooting competitively before you get a handgun license the very few people I knew of who had such a license were either police officers or Japanese Self-Defense Forces members. And they couldn’t possess them at home. They had to store their personal handguns at either a police station or their armory.
At some point during the long, involved process of getting licensed someone from the licensing section of the local police will visit the gun owner’s residence to confirm they have an approved locker/safe and comply with Japan’s safe storage laws. But that’s a 0ne time event. After that the police would only visit the gun owner’s residence if there’s a change in the law, the gun owner’s license status, or if there is some legal issue with the gun owner.
They simply don’t want to bother. Licensed gun owners in Japan simply don’t commit crimes very often. Actually, the crime rate in Japan is low to begin with. firearms licensees among the least of their worries.
No Japanese police ever knocked on my door. I never saw any Japanese police at any of my apartment buildings knocking on anyone’s door. There simply aren’t enough prefectural police in all of Japan to visit every resident of the Tokyo Metropolitan Area let alone the entire country.
There is a National Police Agency but except for the Imperial Guard they have no role in actual law enforcement except to establish policies and standards and supervise the prefectural police departments. There are less than 7,800 employees of the NPA. There are less than 300,000 employees of prefectural police departments nationwide and of these only about 200,000 are actually law enforcement officers. Japan’s population is roughly ten times the size of Pennsylvania’s and there a fewer law enforcement officers with arrest powers in Japan than in that state.
Once, many years ago, I heard that Japanese police will visit anyone when they move into a neighborhood: Interview them, maybe look around their apartment. Is there any truth in that?
I’venever heard of this. As I mentioned, I preferred to live off base in apartment buildings where I was often the only non-Japanese citizen. It may be that since I was an American and most Japanese police officers don’t speak English the embarrassment would have been more than they could stand.
I actually speak Japanese. It was a requirement for one of my duty stations, Commander Naval Forces Japan (CNFJ), since we had a liaison mission with the Japanese Maritime Self0-Defensce Force. But Japanese people are usually very shy and deathly afraid of getting into embarrassing social situations. Sometimes at unfamiliar subway stations I’d ask for directions to where I was to meet friends. I asked in Japanese. But the panicked Japanese would wave me off saying, “No English, No English.” I’d respond in Japanese, “But I’m speaking Japanese.” “No English!” and then they’d hurry off.
They were afraid I’d run of of Japanese, resort to English, and they would have been humiliated.
It’s possible that there is some truth to the story. The Japanese police try to enlist the public’s help in order to maintain law and order and essentially ask them to spy on their neighbors and report anything suspicious. I wish I still had the flyer, but the police were handing out gun control flyers. It showed one neighbor with his ear to the wall listening to what his neighbor is doing. The neighbor is some Yakuza type using a screwdriver on a pistol (illegal in Japan). The text translated as, “If you hear suspicious sounds that may be your neighbor repairing a pistol report it to the police!!!” Like turning screws on a firearm sounds any different from turning screws on anything else.
Japanese people tend not to move very much. Young single Japanese tend to live with their parents until they get married. Then they’ll get their own place and probably stay until they die of old age. Oddly, I knew landlords loved to rent to American service members as we usually only stay in Japan two or three years. Then they get a new, hopefully American tenant. It’s standard practice to pay one month rent in “Thank you money” to the landlord when you move in. With Americans they can pocket this windfall every couple of years as opposed waiting decades for a new Japanese tenant.
Again, I never heard of this practice, nor witnessed it. If the cops did do this I doubt they’d be rude since they’re trying to drum up public support and not alienate people. Once you get out of the large metropolitan areas (the greater Tokyo/Yokohama metropolitan area is the largest in the world) Japan is very rural. It’s possible that if you live in the Japanese version of Mayberry Sheriff Andy might stop by to introduce himself. But I was pretty well integrated into Japanese society. I played Rugby on a Japanese company team, I spent a lot of time at my team mates houses and apartments socializing, and every year we’d rent a vacation house for two weeks on the Izu peninsula, a beautiful resort area south of Tokyo with lots of natural hot springs.
I’ve never witnessed or even heard of this practice. Even when I picked up that gun control flyer it was being distributed by volunteers and they weren’t going door to door.
Well, I read it in a “serious” newspaper, something like 30-40 years ago. Maybe it was true then? Or maybe such newspapers have always been making things up, we just didn’t know it.
I don’t doubt you. When I was stationed in Japan I’d watch local TV. If I had never lived in America and all I had to go on was their reporting I’d be terrified to visit the U.S.
I’m trying to be precise. I’ve never heard of Japanese police making annual/semi-annual visits to people’s homes.
But that doesn’t mean Japan isn’t very much a police state. I’ve more than a passing familiarity with police practices and the legal system since one of my commands, CNFJ, was responsible for any USN or USMC who ran afoul of the law. We’d make sure their rights were protected, provide them with attorneys (not easy; There are over 225,000 attorneys in Kali alone but only 36k in all of Japan despite the fact Kali has a population of less than 40M while Japan’s is over 125M. and Japanese lawyers are very, very expensive), provide them with interpreters and translators. We also retained custody of the suspects. You do not want to be in Japanese custody; if you are, you’re toast.
Most criminal suspects in Japan are held in cells at the police station where the investigating officers are stationed. They have access to detainees 24/7. Interrogation methods are harsh. Detainees have the right to an attorney, but the attorney can’t be in the interrogation room. The detainee is on his/her own. The detainee has the right to remain silent, but while invoking your right to remain silent (and asking for an attorney) ends the interview in the U.S. it does not in Japan. And the police can detain people without indictment indefinitely despite what the law says. Judges almost never refuse the prosecution request to extend pre-indictment detention.
There have been very public cases where Japanese citizens have been held in pre-indictment detention for over a year for crimes that don’t even carry a jail sentence. Only fines.
Foreign nationals have it worse. The interrogation will be in Japanese. All the legal documents will be in Japanese. The police will not provide an interpreter. The detainee might be able to arrange one on his own. Some prefectures will translate documents at the detainee’s expense.
No one is eligible for bail in pre-indictment detention. When the detainee is indicted and goes before the judge the detainee can request bail. It’s extremely rare for a Japanese citizen to get bail. It’s unheard of for foreign nationals in post-indictment, pre-trial detention.
Forced confessions are common in Japan. The Japanese police will tag team a detainee in seemingly endless interrogations to get him to confess. Even when not being interrogated they totally control your environment. When you sleep, how long you sleep, what you eat, when you eat, if you eat, when you can bathe or do your laundry (detainees wear their own clothes until conviction).
Confessions are regarded by the Japanese legal system as the “King of evidence.” The Japanese constitution stipulates that no one can be convicted of a crime if the only evidence is a confession. But that’s easily evaded. The confession has to contain a concrete fact known only to the police or the perpetrator. For instance, the detainee might be accused of murder. If the body was dumped in a location unknown to the police and the perpetrator leads them to it that will be enough to convict.
But sometimes the police have already found the body. They simply claim in their reports that they didn’t know until the suspect told them. Entire written confessions can be forged. Sometimes the suspect will be intimidated into signing a blank form and the police fill in the rest.
There isn’t much a defense attorney, if you’re lucky enough to have one (there is no such thing as a public defender in Japan) can do even if he knows the confession was coerced unless there’s something glaringly, obviously wrong in it.
Prosecutors usually won’t indict without a confession. The detainee’s chance of getting bail is miniscule, but if the detainee hasn’t confessed the judge considers the detainee a risk to “destroy evidence.”
Because most Japanese citizens have no contact with their legal system (there are no jury trials in Japan) the popular perception is the police don’t make mistakes. If someone is arrested, that someone must have committed a crime. Judges who should know better share that misconception. No matter what the law might say an arrest creates a presumption of guilt. The burden of proof is on the defendant to establish his innocence.
The Japanese cops may not demand to search your house twice a year, but the system is very much rigged against anyone accused of a crime.
Whether we call his mental state evil or depraved or illness the common factor is this guy fell outside the normal band of thought and his actions yesterday demonstrates that. I would be surprised if he didn’t have previous actions that did as well. Killing and torture of animals is a common characteristic for youthful mass killers as an example. Not always but often enough to be an indicator of abnormal thinking that may manifest into violence v humans.
Let’s call this small group abnormal. Within this small group is an even smaller percentage of people who commit mass violence. Perhaps the way forward is to refine the characteristics of what is abnormal and potentially violent then run them past a commitment hearing. Adversarial in nature, full due process and if shown to be Cray Cray lock them up in an institution.
Obviously there must be rigorous evidence, objective standards along with high guard rails to prevent abuse of process or simply targeting those who are not in lockstep with society. As one example, roughly 85% of people have a cell phone but lack of a cell phone doesn’t make one cray cray.
Toleration, kindness and an unwillingness to judge others may be virtues in individual behavior but not for the govt which can no longer uphold its end of the social compact. At root govt exists to protect its citizens and they need to employ tools to do so while being monitored for excess or abuse of those tools.
Our popular culture breeds these kinds of people. We live in a death culture that breeds hate and narcissism. We are all special. No one is better than anyone else using our platforms to make a statement and getting famous.
It’s not the guns. We have become a very sick, decadent culture. The adults are no longer allowed into the conversation. We are the domestic terrorists. Sick.
I am afraid I have to agree with you.
Our culture has become destructive and sick.
There have always been people who are “on the edge”, but they did not previously find validation and acceptance in the mass culture.
Now, they are celebrated and emulated.
Exhibit 1: Rap “music”
I don’t suppose video games have anything to do with it where boys sit around all day and pretend to kill people.
Personally, I don’t believe it has anything to do with it except for a grant funded PHD who has to produce a paper to keep the money coming in.
I heard this same crap in the 60’s/70’s from TV and cartoons too. It was bogus then too.
Kids grew up playing cops/robbers, cowboys/Indians and played war THEN watched Bugs wallop Elmer while Yosemite was in a rage firing his pistols and James West beat up more people than Captain Kirk.
That didn’t create a race of C.H.U.D violence prone kids wreaking hell on society then and it isn’t doing it now either.
The short simple answer is that PEOPLE’S DECISIONs cause violence.
They know they are wrong when they do it- they just don’t care.
Taurus—that’s a bunch of Bull.
I invite you to point out specifically the “bull” and enlighten us with the facts that “prove” them to be “bull”.
See, back in those days, people had to accept responsibility for their actions and parents/society enforced those values. People who opted to then break the law still had a healthy respect ( fear) of being punished when caught.
There was no blaming Twinkies, video games or “everything else”.
Then show us where anything other than that “personal decision” causes violence. (This I gotta hear)
I want you to specifically show me “violence” of any description anywhere that doesn’t have a human decision attached to it.
OK, Peabody, lets have it.
“I heard this same crap in the 60’s/70’s from TV and cartoons too.
It was bogus then too.”
Three Stooges.
Popeye.
Even Superman. (Well, kids WERE tying on towels and jumping off shed roofs.)
Funny, no one ever took The Simpsons to task for encouraging bratty little shits.
In reply to Taurus the Judge
“OK, Peabody, lets have it.”
OK Taurus. Here it is. That’s what is called a play on words. Your name is Taurus. Taurus means Bull.
Cheer up Taurus. I was trying to make you smile.
I stand corrected
In reply to Taurus the Judge.
I agree with your rationale. by the way. Good work. No Bull.
No, they don’t. It’s been studied to death, and if there were a connection it would have been found.
Maybe it’s been disproved on a wide scale… possibly … maybe even probably (in an academic sense).
Twice in my own personal household experiences, however, (out of 2) I observed significant increased near-term aggression by adolescent males in connection with video game “play”. And these were the primitive relatively-tame disks of the previous century.
Found it best to either be in the same room as the one computer or change the password.
As far as I know, true, neither circumstance led to mass murder – if that’s the defining study criteria.
You do see the immediate issues don’t you?
First, what constitutes “abnormal” in terms of reliably predicting any criminal action?
Where does that “abnormal” fall within a legal versus illegal act? (I can argue “twerking” on ones head is an indication of mental instability but not the precursor to a criminal act)
Point is they do not exist ( the tests and standards) and can never realistically be derived so the entire concept of “predictable” is false on its merits and ripe for abuse by design.
Taurus,
I specifically stated that any tools and their use ‘must be monitored for excess or abuse’. I also specifically stated that the set of indicators to be used be derived from the common characteristics and behaviors of mass killers. I also states that there must be an adversarial proceeding with full due process before a commitment.
Given those points I would have thought it obvious that I recognized the potential for abuse. Nor did I layout a theory of pre crime detention. What I described is:
1. Develop a set of common things among mass killers
2. As individuals come on the radar, apply that set to begin the process for a commitment hearing
3. The individual would be screened by psychologists and that screening would have two outcomes:
A. Recommended release no commitment hearing
B. Recommended an involuntary commitment hearing
4. The hearing itself would be adversarial, represented by counsel, expert testimony, witness, cross examination, IOW full due process
That is using a set of behaviors that exist in mass killers as a screening tool for further review by a psychologist and only upon his recommendation does a commitment hearing process begin. That proceeding would have every safeguard that a normal trial enjoys.
This is way different than red flag laws or handing off discretionary power to a PO ex spouse or co-workers.
@ Chief
I acknowledge you did and this is not an attacks in any way.
Its a good theory but an exercise in futility because its an impossible task to physically build and execute.
Lets look at one:
Assuming they tell the truth, what “common things” are both common and “triggers” for mass murders? ( as opposed to those who are just serial killers?)
Then, where is the line between removing a RIGHT based on a SWAG? What test would that be? (What happened to presumption of innocence?)
There is no direct causal link to the DECISION to perform an evil act. ( that’s what it would take)
Despite the six sigma/lean “file and folder’ cause and effect Ishikawa fishbone mindset prevalent in business today, no such reliable techniques exist nor will they ever which will reliably predict human behavior in terms of cause and effect.
That’s why my proposal uses the set of common things only as a screening tool. It’s not the final word or revenge the intermediate word.
Older mass killers have a different set of things than younger mass killers. One is animal cruelty /torture for younger mass killers. That doesn’t mean everyone who does that will become a mass killer. It does mean that if present begin looking for other things to develop a fuller picture.
Once developed then bring in a shrink then if the shrink says nah he’s just a little weird not Cray Cray then stop. Only where the set of things has been buttressed by a shrink’s recommendation for a commitment hearing would it go further.
There are some common things shared by many, not all, mass killers. It’s useful as a screening tool to ID and refer to a shrink followed by a full commitment process. It’s not an independent basis for locking up someone or even removing their firearms.
On a separate unrelated point I think the way to oppose red flag laws is to amend them to require incarnation and stripping voter rights. As long as the only consequence is removal of firearms the public might support it.
By increasing the impact the public will rethink their support. When expanded beyond firearms people may realize that the Karen at work or a spiteful ex can have their rights stripped.
How could the d/prog object to linking voting rights? If a given person is Cray Cray enough to take their firearms then why would they be allowed to vote? Either that person is or isn’t Cray cray. Most States don’t allow a ‘mental defective’ to cast a ballot.
In any event no worries. We all know that d/prog are the problem not each other. We are all spit balling ideas on how to counter red flag and other d/prog(+rino) abuses.
“First, what constitutes “abnormal” in terms of reliably predicting any criminal action?”
The whole emphasis on “predicting” criminal action is ridiculous. Red flag laws, pshht. We have people out there who DO heinous things, and instead of keeping them quarantined away from innocents, we put them back out onto the street. Don’t talk to me about this “prediction” bullshit until you are doing all you can to address the KNOWN threats. Government weenies (politicians, cops, judges, and DAs) all want to do “something new” so they don’t have to do something old and well-known but is hard work. Yes, I include cops. I’m old enough to remember when cops like the Broward County and Uvalde cops would have been crucified for their cowardice.
Preaching to the Choir Henry
Well, they said, “It’s crazy for an 18 year old to buy a gun.” Biden says, “When are we going to say enough is enough? We need sensible gun control. Raise the damn age.”
So the next shooter is 22 years old. Now we need to raise the age to 23.
It would be more effective to institute a top-end age limit for presidents.
And not just age—-all of this focus on mental illness while forgetting the elephant in the room: The President of the United States is mentally ill.
IMO the President is suffering the long term consequences of TWO brain surgeries for aneurysms in 1988, one of which had burst. (A brother-in-law died from just one aneurysm.) I have read that dementia is a possible long term consequence. Also, his occasional speech confusion has been present for a very long time, possibly the consequence of some “wires” in his head being damaged. Until proven otherwise, that is my hypothesis and IMO he has not been qualified for the office for a very long time.
No argument here.
Per the article, “Crimo has an obsession with mass shootings.” He apparently also had a social media presence that was “off” and was known to police. The latter two, in particular, are typical of every one of these, discovered after the fact. If the social media giants spent a little more time on monitoring this and a little less on blocking conservative speech, and we had solid red flag laws, perhaps a lot of risky people would not be able to get guns. Also, given the known impairment of brain development by marijuana, and the widespread decision by society (not me) that MJ is OK, raising the legal age to own a gun to 21 ought to be a no-brainer.
What is the exact clinical diagnosis of “obsession with mass shootings” and “off”?
What is “known to police”?
What is a “solid red flag law”?
Since the guy is 22,( or not even considering that)- what is magical about 21 that raising this mystical age to is going to effect? What age do you suggest all inalienable rights would be approved at?
“What is known to police”?
It used to mean the person has been the subject of a police action, responding to a call or complaint, or has been arrested or charged or convicted of a criminal offense. That is, he has a “rap sheet” or a history of police action involving him.
Now it means that the person posted something negative on social media and police should’ve been aware of it.
“What age do you suggest all inalienable rights would be approved at?”
Interesting you bring up this point. There are a lot of alternatives. For example, Heinlein’s opinion was that you don’t get your rights until you serve in the military.
Myself, I have always been of the opinion that picking an arbitrary age is tantamount to collectivism. I prefer due process. Due process is ALWAYS meted out individually. That is to say, there should be an examination of some type. Human societies have had coming-of-age rituals forever, maybe they knew something we’ve forgotten. The Gom Jabbar. “Show us your fotos.” Some founding father I read about within the past few weeks who celebrated his son’s tenth birthday by sending him out into the woods with a gun for a month to learn how to fend for himself (sounds a little extreme?)
Pass, and you’re an adult. Emancipated from your parents, legally responsible, buy a pack of Shiner, the whole nine yards. Be an illiterate, innumerate, criminal wastrel, maybe we give you a bye at 35, or maybe we never do. It would improve the national political dialog immeasurably.
Then we’re just stuck with the problem of how we keep the government from holding adulthood hostage to some outlandish Hunger Games ritual. Would it be enough to remind them that if they rig the game, they’ll lose all their stupid voter bases?
Nope.
1. In Starship Troopers it’scitizenship, not rights, that depends on service. Non-citizens have full civil rights. There is no pressure at all to volunteer.
2. It’s public service, not military service. Only 2% of volunteers are assigned to the military. But when you sign up, although you can state your preferences and they’ll try to accommodate you, there are no guarantees. You can be assigned anywhere and you have to accept it or resign. A pacifist who wants to be a citizen could sign up and play the odds; if he’s assigned to the military he quits and gives up on citizenship.
In Expanded Universe Heinlein proposed a test, not for citizenship, but for voting. Before casting a ballot you have to solve a quadratic equation generated at random on the spot. If you can’t solve it you can’t vote. Civic organizations could hold classes teaching people how to do it; anyone smart enough to benefit from such classes can vote.
How about the way some websites determine you are human and not a robot?
“Pick the pictures than have crosswalks?”
“Non-citizens have full civil rights.” Citizenship gave extra privileges not afforded to civilians.
What bothers me the most is that a FFL holder purportedly sold the weapon used to this freak. The dealer is under no obligation to sell, even with a clean background. He should have been shown the door after one look.
Do you realize how dangerous ( and potentially illegal) what you just said is?
It’s already being done. The dealers in this area ask a lot of questions before renting a firearm for the range or selling one. They trust their gut and if a prospective purchaser is turned down and threatens to “go someplace else”, the other dealers in the area are notified. This is more for the prevention of suicide that anything else but can’t help but slow down a potential mass murderer.
Makes no difference whether they “do it” or not. ( neither makes an act “right” or even legal) and personally I doubt it is effective in the real world.
To have the false belief that it has any impact whatsoever in anything is a fool’s belief for any number of reasons ( first is the false assumption a potential suicidal person is going somewhere to buy a gun for that purpose and if “serious” is somehow going to “spill the beans” because a stranger just asks)
If true, those acts are nothing more than “feel good” wasted efforts that in the end produce nothing.
And, when they “deny” the wrong person and wind up on the receiving end of a gavel- we will all see how committed they really are.
“Do you realize how dangerous ( and potentially illegal) what you just said is?”
That’s the price you pay when you want to be an FFL.
You can refuse a sale to someone and chance getting sued for rights denial.
You can sell to someone, then get sued by the BATF for “knew or should have known” for not being able to read the guy’s mind.
The bakers didn’t have an FFL.
As an FFL, ( which is tied directly to a Constitutional Right), you are best off not doing anything but the background check or be ready to pay the price if challenged.
He obtained the State of Illinois certificate to purchase a firearm.
Seems to me like incels are becoming a real problem.
Maybe we need a federally funded program to get these guys laid.
If he got his pipes cleaned once a month, maybe he’d be less insane.
/s
Then wouldn’t the pro abortion stance calling for a sex strike make these women accomplices? /S
A neck tattoo, always a sign of a highly evolved individual (s).
This kid was known to the local law. His father just ran for mayor. Makes the father and by extension, the family, important members of the community. Let’s talk about the hidden reason that may be responsible for this young man’s shooting spree. Pharmaceuticals! Psychotropic drugs. Everyone of them have in their side effect potential homicidal feelings. Combine that with video games based in killing, violent killing and you have a recipe for these disasters. Look back over the last 100 years. How many mass shootings were there and what were the ages of the perpetrators? You won’t find many young adults or teenagers in that cohort. Fast forward to Columbine and beyond. Young males who were being treated for adhd and add. Treated with drugs that have warnings of potential homicidal and suicidal side effects.
A FOID story …
About 2010 I obtained a FOID card and purchased a semi-auto to keep with us when we retired and would be traveling. IL didn’t allow CC at the time but had been ordered to enact a law and process to allow CC. They ran right up to the court’s appointed deadline (summer of 2012?) and gun owners were hopeful they’d default and IL be forced to adopt “constitutional carry”. But they approved a very restrictive law – in terms of all the excluded areas and requirements for gun safety and live-fire proficiency. Best I can recall, my FOID and IL CC cards cost me nearly $600. Not including range time to become proficient.
Since we were driving several times a year between IL and WA where my father lived, I took another course offered through Cabela’s in Bollingbrook to get my non-resident AZ and UT CC cards for the reciprocity they offered which let me drive from IL to WA unimpeded by restrictive state gun laws.
In 2014, Dad began to fail and we sold our IL home and moved to WA that October. Originally from WA state and planning to stay, I “surrendered” my IL DL and had my WA Dl renewed. BEFORE I even got my WA DL photo card in the mail, I got a letter from IL revoking my FOID because I had surrendered my IL DL. A week later, I got another letter from IL revoking my CC card because I didn’t have a FOID.
I’d have questioned the authorities and fought the action IF I hadn’t been so tied up with caring for Dad. It was my impression that the newly enacted IL laws allowed for out of state / non-resident permits – but neither of the state letters mentioned the possibility. Only the demand that I “surrender” the cards to them and that they were now “void”.
Fast forward to 2020, my wife’s mom in east central IL is aging, and now that Dad is gone, I wanted to give my wife as much time with her mom as possible, and bought a small 2nd home there where we spend 25 weeks per year – two trips per year by car – where we try to see the sights in between. I can still drive from WA to IL with my WA and UT permits, but technically am not permitted to own a firearm in IL despite owning a home there. If my home were in the suburbs, I’d worry more about it, but we’re well south of I-80 where the town sheriff told me the state south of I-80 isn’t bat-shit crazy like the folks north of it.
If ever I am confronted about having a firearm in my rural IL home, or in my vehicle when traveling, my situation would make for a compelling case I’m sure – someone formerly trained, demonstrated, credentialed and legally licensed, being prohibited from owning and carrying a gun – while licensed to transport and carry concealed in about 35 states with reciprocity. If I were made of money, I’d love to see it tried. Alas, I’d rather spend what money I do have, on ammo and guitars. Oh, and wine.
From what I’ve been able to glean, Bobby III wasn’t raised by his Republican businessman father or his hippie healer mother. He was raised by his schools, peers, and the media. He lived with his family, but was essentially detached from them.
This dysfunctionality is actually the norm; the outcome was merely the bad end of the bell curve.
A Person of Color… a veritable Rainbow.
Solution is staring us in the face. Just ban people who plan to stage a mass killing attack from owning guns. Duh!!!
Just like in the movies, arrest people before they commit a crime.
I used to think the only people who got face tattoos were resigned to the fact the only jobs they could get after prison was wrenching on Harleys.
This guy changed my mind. I hope this doesn’t offend any gay people who visit this blog, because like when I talk about some Muslims I’m not talking about all Muslims, but I never considered until now the career path of gay male escort working for his next hit of meth behind a head shop near the dumpster.
Because my mind just doesn’t naturally go there. Until now, when I was forced to reconsider the options.
https://www.wafb.com/resizer/eXedjlIwHwlJVCZxc00BU7pQajk=/1200×0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-raycom.s3.amazonaws.com/public/KHODTBDHCZBXPEQ2H5FNESAOZI.jpg
https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/nikko-jenkins-face-tattoos.jpg
I’m all for arresting people before they commit crimes. Let’s start with the face tattoos.
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.791a87391eda2e2d17ae0541d8c30815?rik=3SRBRbRZCueCHQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fstatic-28.sinclairstoryline.com%2fresources%2fmedia%2f6193654f-521c-4fd1-b6df-9369efcfd0f5-large16x9_CAMPOS_JONATHAN.JPG%3f1468115437347&ehk=lpilKPwdzAjcrFVi6HgFiLzGwfITW5c1vQ6gykgqgrg%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
Especially the ones with tear drops.
I’m closing in on 60. I’ve been shooting and hunting since I don’t know when. My Uncle used to have to carry me on his back to the duck blind after he got the boat as far as he could. The boat being a dead giveaway and we’d never see any ducks. Then wade back to the boat and get the gear and hand me the 20 gauge (No, a .410 is exactly the wrong thing to give to a kid or novice shooter as only an expert can connect with it; I’m thinking of writing a book about all the correct gun advice you’ll never hear from Joe Biden).
In all this time I’ve never heard of a “high caliber” weapon.
What in holy Hell is a “high caliber” weapon? I got my first 12 gauge when I was 15. In the Navy I qual’d on everything from the .38 special up to Ma Deuce. I fam fired on the 25mm chain gun. Yeah, you can fire them manually.
https://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/m242-bushmaster-chain-gun-live-fire/5057993703001
Can someone tell me what’s a “high power” or “high caliber” weapon?
Also, I’m looking at the pic of this perp and, no red flags there. I’m sure he/she/xe didn’t get beat up a lot in high school. Nope.
Best take MY guns just in case.
Technically the term has been around at least since the early 60’s when I started shooting. (I imagine it was old then)
Back then it was colloquially referencing any caliber above the .22 caliber set (basically .30 and above) (That was the restriction at a lot of deer clubs- had to be a “high caliber” for a clean kill)
I remember the 12 and 10 referred to as heavy gauge shotguns too.
That said, I do not believe there is an official accepted definition of either term.
In this case, I also noted that term used rather than an AR so maybe its a different firearm? (maybe an M1a with 30 sticks, mini-14 or other like rifle)
Make laws against criminals instead of violating honest people’s civil rights.
Make the sentences 10 times as long and have the criminals serve 1/10 of their sentence in prison and the rest on parole. If they violate parole they can be returned to serve the rest of their sentence.
Develop electric ankle bracelets so those on parole can be located when crimes are committed and when they need to be arrested.
Make possession of a firearm during the commission of a serious crime and possession of a firearm by a felon a federal felony. This crime should be punished with a sentence of50 years in prison.
IMO this guy should have been at the top in that town at risk for a mass murder. It turns out he was known to law enforcement, apparently including some 2019 incident in his home with 20 knives and wanting to kill lots of people.
Years ago a friend commented that “people with neck tattoos are rarely strategic thinkers.” I have found few cases where this isn’t true. To be honest, I give people like this the stink eye when I encounter them. Sorry if it hurts their feelings, but my freak-dar is tuned in for a reason. If they got the tats for attention, well, it worked, just maybe not the way that they wanted.
OK, apparently Crimo is ANTIFA, or displays their markings and Leftist social media postings. This is a Democrat controlled polity. I am admittedly surprised that he has not be released on a PR bond.
Subotai Bahadur
I continue to deplore the publication of mass killers’ actual names. Since their craving for fame is a major driver behind their heinous crimes, why enable and encourage them by making them famous?
For the solution, I’d take a tip from Hollywood, where film directors and scriptwriters who wish to disown a project are customarily credited under the alias “Alan Smithee”. I’d suggest a similar solution for publicizing the names of mass killers — except, of course, the alias for killers would be something more along the lines of “Dip Schitt”, or “Azzhole Azzhole”.
I realize the challenge would be for news anchors to avoid cracking up every time they had to announce that the killer was identified as “Dip Schitt” or “Azzhole Azzhole”. However, the benefits from suppressing publicity for psychopathic killers would vastly outweigh such broadcast lapses; and over time, I expect most news anchors would learn to keep a straight face.
Anyway, that’s my (only half-serious) modest proposal.
“Awake the Rapper” = Woke soyboi that was off his rocker