Today we will again be covering the Zimmerman Trial live, all day, with streaming video. Continuing commentary will be posted in the Twitter feed of selected contributors below the first video feed, below.
This morning is the charging conference, in which the State and defense will argue about the specific charges on which the jury is to be instructed. The options are second degree murder, manslaughter, and aggravated assault. The defense wishes a charge only on second degree murder, the State prefers the latter two charges also be considered.
The State is scheduled to begin its closing argument at 1:00PM today, and the defense tomorrow morning. By tomorrow afternoon the jury should have been charged and begun their deliberations.
We also have brief summaries of the previous day’s events Zimmerman Defense Rests, Closing Statements Start Tomorrow along links to detailed more posts below the second video feed at the bottom of this post.
Defense attorney Don West and George Zimmerman
In addition, last night Professor Jacobson posted an analysis of the racial politics driving the Zimmerman prosecution, here:
Racial politics supported by State power come down on George Zimmerman
Also, a quick note, in thanks to the Professor and all of you I’ve put in place a 10% discount/free shipping coupon for Legal Insurrection followers interested in “The Law of Self Defense, 2nd Edition”–use code LOSD2-LI at checkout.
Live Stream Video
WITH COMMENTARY FROM CHANNEL 9 IN SANFORD
[For live-stream video without commentary, see NBC live feed at bottom of this post.]
Twitter Feed:
(My tweets can be identified as coming from @lawselfdefense, or @lawselfdefense2 if I’m in Twitmo–follow both!.)
Tweets from @LegInsurrection/zimmerman-trial
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LIVE-STREAM WITHOUT COMMENTARY FROM NBC
Thursday, July 11 Commentary
During the lunch recess, or immediately thereafter, we will TRY to post a mid-day update. We’ll then follow up with the usual detailed end-of-day wrap up, including video and embedded Tweets, at the usual time in the evening.
For all of our prior coverage on day-to-day events in court, as covered here at Legal Insurrection, click here:
ARCHIVE: Zimmerman Trial LIVE coverage all day, every day
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Law of Self Defense Blog: Zimmerman Trial
(NOTE: If you do wander over to the LOSD blog, be sure to come back to Legal Insurrection to comment, as nearly all my time is spent here for the duration of the trial.)
Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense,” now available in its just released 2nd Edition, which shows you how to successfully fight the 20-to-life legal battle everyone faces after defending themselves. Take advantage of the 20% “Zimmerman trial” discount & free shipping (ends when the jury returns a verdict). NRA & IDPA members can also use checkout coupon LOSD2-NRA for an additional 10% off. To do so simply visit the Law of Self Defense blog. I have also instituted a similar coupon for Legal Insurrection followers LOSD2-LI(Coupons works ONLY at www.lawofselfdefense.com.) “The Law of Self Defense, 2nd Edition” is also available at Amazon.com.
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Comments
In watching this trial, I have come to the conclusion that I never wan to be accused of anything because these trials can be manipulated so much in the favor of the prosecution. Justice in America appears to be dead.
luckily this is not a fair representation of the justice system. It’s more of a witch hunt, but not the biggest travesty of justice. Take a look at Illinois vs. August Spies et al.
over a hundred years ago, but it’s a great example of what happens when a trial becomes political and the state put’s its hand in to tip the scales.
Given the heavy racial overtones in this trial (not from the actual facts but more from the media from the beginning): Will White Hispanics riot if Zimmerman is found guilty?
not likely. The last time I heard of a white riot the Clash were involved.
That post is a bit tongue in cheek…although Kenny Chesney concerts can get pretty wild.
Not chance, but even if GZ is convicted, some of the TM crowd will still want to rumble. They’ve been planning this party for too long to call it off now.
Mantei in the big boy chair, and Angela Corey has been elevated from the gallery to sit at the back table.
…And we’re in recess for 30 minutes.
Thanks for sharing (plagiarizing) Rene’s tweet Matt!
Rene Stutzman @renestutzman 22m
#GeorgeZimmerman has taken his seat at defense table. No defense attys yet, but here’s the big news: Rich Mantei is at big boy state table.
from Sanford, FL
Plagiarized, huh? Because Rene is the first person to coin the phrase “big boy,” right?
Don’t hate me because I saw through your hypocrisy yesterday.
For the record, I hadn’t seen that tweet (or any other) when I posted my comment.
George Mason U. will offer a class this Fall on Trayvon Martin.
They misspelled his name on the class schedule.
I wonder if they will review Mr. Doll’s testimony. He was actually a more credible witness than Jeantel.
More articulate, too. In every possible sense of the word…
Whenever I hear George Mason, I think of the comedy song by Paul and Storm. Play button at top, explanatory notes at the bottom.
http://www.paulandstorm.com/lyrics/george-mason/
Hi K-Liz, good to see your commenting. I suppose it’s a ways form Althouse. Shame she took down that awesome community. –Dante
In fairness, most commercial spell checkers don’t recognize ridiculous, made up names.
Great coverage Professor!
We’ve been ALL OVER this story as well on Common Cents…
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com
Are the lesser charges required to be included? If I were GZ I wouldn’t want that option available.
Do you all feel like Judge Nelson is getting in a bit of a rush? She seems concerned with juror comfort, but I really think she is trying to beat Hurricane/Tropical Storm Chantal/Jeantel.
Sorry to say, Chantal has diminished greatly.
We could use a weather intervention.
The conservative treehouse has an analysis of why what is happening and when
While the conservative Treehouse certainly provided much information about Trayvon and his family as well as how this whole arrest unfolded, they now claim to KNOW that the verdict will be not guilty (because they have seen the script). Just a tad too much of a conspiracy theorist to be credible to me on that issue. I don’t see how anyone is able to “get to the jurors” to ensure they reach a not guilty verdict….of course…I hope it a not guilty verdict.
indeed. i just threw it up as food for thought.
(how about that for a gross and disgusting metaphor?)
however having done their research and reportage with due diligence throughout this case, their opinion(and that’s what their “claim to know is”, IMHO)certainly is more relevant than mine and with all due respect yours
I look forward to reading about this inside scoop they have on the verdict…..
The Conservative Treehouse is very good at uncovering evidence, but not nearly as good at analysis. For example, at one time they were demanding that O’Mara be fired because he was clearly incompetent. That post prompted [url=https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=473]my blog post[/url] that the CT had clearly jumped the ahark.
Yes….Txantimedia….I believe that is also the time we “met.” If I recall a number of people were banned from posting on that site for having an opposing view. I still check back at the Treehouse but definitely prefer this site for reliable commentary on this case.
Yes a number of us were banned for what was stupid reasons. It is going to happen again judging from what I have seen over there.
They are censorship nazis. I prefer being a spelling nazi because it is relatively harmless.
As you should know, I have my own blog too. Sometimes I do a post to rebut stuff I see at CTH, especially some of the stuff that is way over the top.
So on what grounds are they going to convict him on manslaughter charges? The fact that he followed Trayvon for 30 seconds (which isn’t against the law) or that he shot him in self-defense (which isn’t against the law?)
I’ve found this whole case to be depressing. First, on the night of the event one person died and the other person’s life was forever changed – that’s nothing to be happy about.
Second, the Coroner’s office did a pathetic job in the case – possibly because they saw it as just another young black man shot to death.
Third, the press has been abysmal. They got virtually all the early facts wrong and kept repeating them. To reinforce their story they even doctored audio evidence before playing it on the air. In the last three weeks the quality of coverage has been particularly bad as they, seemingly, try to not offend any group with their shallow reporting. (Don’t get me started on commentators such as Nancy Grace.)
Fourth, the politicians have failed in their duty to support an impartial and fair judicial system. The mayor and city manager played politics and interfered in the police investigation by removing tapes from evidence and then playing them to the the Martin Family and their lawyers. Then the governor, not liking the outcome, assigned a rubber stamp prosecutor to the case and shoved this down onto the courts.
Fifth, the judicial system has taken a hit. The prosecutors delayed releasing evidence to the defense, then the judge didn’t allow the defense time to prepare it. Martin’s activities as an active fighter are relevant and the texts could have been brought into evidence if the defense had time to corroborate them with the recipients of those texts. Instead, only Zimmerman’s fighting (weak as it was) was allowed into evidence. The result was very prejudicial.
Sixth, its a shame that this country still has ‘activists’ who manipulate an event to gain advantage for their pocketbook or for camera time with little regard to the damage they cause.
Seventh, this whole event has a chilling effect on those who wish to responsibly carry a concealed firearm.
Eighth, I’m depressed to see how much distrust we still have in this country between various groups of people.
After hearing all the evidence (and more), I firmly believe that Zimmerman should not be found guilty. Hopefully, this happens and it is a just verdict. But, I’m having a hard time trusting the ‘system’ to do the right thing after what I’ve witnessed over the course of this case.
This comment is a great thumbnail summation of everything wrong with this case. Thanks for putting it together.
From my observations, most of this crap happens in Florida. Sad, indeed.
No reason why, after a brilliant defense and an incompetent prosecution, that George should not be found not guilty, but again, it is Florida! No way to have confidence in any opinion until the verdict comes in!
Spot on….I think you pretty much covered it…..
And don’t forget the President weighing in with his “if I had a son he’d look like Trayvon Martin” nonsense.
The fact that the case was part of the election campaign accounts for most of the evil. The news media lies were part of their job as propaganda agents for the campaign. Same goes for the lying politicians. They created the horde of ill informed TM fans the we see posting those lies.
Even for aggravated assault, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant directly threatened the victim. That is nowhere in evidence of this case. I don’t believe that the jury will compromise to some lesser charge when faced with the objective criteria clearly not being met.
From your fingers typing to God’s ear…..
Well Zim cried for help didn’t he? That proves intent. /sarc
Tried to put myself in the jurors’ position last night, and the one thing that sticks out is:
How did they get from “the T” to where TM’s body is found?
I’m assuming the sucker punch is thrown and GZ goes down(loses keys and flashlight) – at this point TM may have waited for GZ to get back up – GZ rushes him and they tussle to the ground further down the walk – where TM again gets the upper hand John Good sees the ground and pound and at some point in the struggle GZ is able reach is sidearm while TM is raring back for an actual left hand blow – this keeps the angle from barrel to chest more realistic and would be an open shot for TM as GZ has abandoned defending his face in retrieving the PF9 on his right side.
After being shot TM slumps back, GZ struggles out, and TM falls forward.
I’d further add Witless #8 heard this all happen – the sucker punch, returning bum rush, and struggle to the ground.
She’s lying about the altercation and could be the one witness if brought back on (heaven forbid) an appeal and end this case once and for all.
Good synopsis, though I differ with your scenario slightly.
From what we know about GZ’s nature/character, it is likely that he struggled to his feet and was running toward John Good’s for help.
TM overtakes him (younger, longer legs) tackles/throws him to the ground (and partial sidewalk) and begins the pound and ground with GZ resisting ineffectively while screaming for help that did not come.
Your scenario sounds more plausible. I can’t rationalize GZ running away though. If you’ve ever been sucker punched in the nose – it tends to light a short rage fuse and at that point if he really wanted to kill TM he’d have pulled the 9 and put TM on the ground there.
Or it put him in a total disoriented state and he ran(why not towards his truck I don’t know) into a darker area?
I somehow doubt that TM would wait for GZ to get up after sucker punching him. Especially considering that GZ was mounted at some point during the fight. Also the “bum rush” would not take more than a few feet as TM was already within punching range.
A more likely scenario would be that the fight moved as GZ attempted to get away.
I’ll go you one further…how did Martin end up at the T when it was out of the way from the clubhouse to Green’s apartment? Unless Zimmerman tackled him and dragged him there, it’s obvious Martin went there of his own volition to confront Zimmerman.
Sucker punch to the face. You get staggered. (Stagger – To move from side to side or to move on unsteadily.) I can EASILY see that after the first punch, GZ is totally defensive. He is trying to back up from TM and putting up what ever defense he can. Anyone who has ever seen a fight knows that two guys don’t just stand in one place and trade blows. There is a LOT of movement.
GZ is stunned and trying to regain his senses. As he comes back around he finds himself on the bottom getting pummeled. He yells for help because he can’t stop this guy from beating he head in. He finally remembers and realizes what is on his side. He used his weapon.
I believe GZ’s story that he exposed the gun when trying to ‘shrimp’ out of TM’s hold and when TM saw and threatened him (with the much-coveted gun) GZ had to choose to employ his firearm.
In George’s video recount of this incident he demonstrates how he is punched and then stumbling and flailing his arms at Trayvon as they are headed away from the T.
Great observations!
I too wonder how the two got so far away from the “T” if Trayvon really was in complete dominance of George for the entire time. George had Grappling training, although he was not good at it, but he likely instinctively used what he knew to defend himself, hence no wounds on Trayvon – grappling does not use punching, kicking, scratching, or biting.
As far as the two men and the gun. I suspect that they did struggle for the gun toward the end of the fight, just as George said. The problem, for me, is that George brought the gun to the party and drew it at the end of a fist fight, and no one knows who started that fight. Maybe Treyvon felt the Creepy Ass Cracker was a threat to him because the man was following him; I can see that as a misperception, but he should have ran home to safety and called the police, IMO. Conversely George should have stayed in his truck, maybe followed in the truck until the police arrived. Not a popular thing to say here, but the two men were in the grass, not on the concrete, when the shot was fired that ended the fight.
This is not the best case to use to discuss pros and cons of Concealed Carry, IMO.
I agree with you completely there were things that could have been done on both sides that would have deescalated the confrontation. Mr. Branca actually talks a bit about escalation and deescalation of conflict in LOSDv2.
That said, no matter what happened prior, GZ had a ‘return to innocence’ at the moment that he was on his back being beaten and screaming for help. There is 40 seconds of this documented in the Lauer 911 call. Mr. Good’s testimony that TM did not stop when he arrived and then departed to call the police supports this argument. In the end for a self defense argument we are looking at what happened that caused GZ to draw and fire on TM.
I really do believe from the evidence and my own experience with MMA that GZ would have had a credible fear of death or great bodily harm at the moment that he shot TM.
As a non-gun person I vehemently disagree with the statement about George bringing the gun to the party.
It seems that George was used to strapping on the gun because it was a concealed carry. He stated that he forgot that he had the gun. I believe him. I believe that there was a struggle for the gun after George’s clothing rode up and revealed the gun.
On top of that, I believe that TM did place a hand over George’s mouth, and that it occurred prior to the blood curdling scream for help. It was at this point that TM threatened George, telling him that he was going to die. Then came the blood curdling scream followed by the gun shot. The sequence is important in my opinion. It is only in seconds, but it was also the point where George had to be quick in his thinking, keep TM’s arm away from the gun with one hand, and then use the other to pull the gun and fire. There is no other way to explain those events.
I think that somewhere along the line George did state that he did not go down immediately but he was off balance. From memory, I think somewhere he stated that there was a little bit of push and shove before he ended up on the ground. This might explain the distance from the T. The keys and flashlight were knocked out of his hands when the first punch landed, but did he fall then or later?
The real Trayvon Martin, whom the jury never met thanks to the machinations and distortions of the evidence by Crump, the Martins and the Media, Obama, Holder, and FL DoJ.
I would suggest that, as a public service, every Zimmerman supporter on this board saturate their social networks with Uncle Samuel’s link (above) to Trayvon Martin’s cell phone pix and texts. I’m off to do that right now, in fact.
IANAL, but given my reading of Florida Statute, and the fact that Trayvon Martin died as a direct result of a single gunshot I’m not clear on how an aggravated assault conviction could make any sense.
Zimmerman was either justified in shooting Martin, or he was not. If he was justified, their was no aggravated assault. If the shooting was unjustified it was aggravated assault, but due to Martin’s death wouldn’t it then automatically rise to (at least) Manslaughter?
Agree….I think that shows the state is floundering for SOMETHING that may stick. If I were on the jury, I’d be confused. M2 and the lesser included offense of manslaughter…yeah…but aggravated assault? How the hell can someone commit that when they are getting beaten
the real question is how could the charge be acceptable given that the purported victim died?
Aggravated Assault appears to be the appropriate sort of charge when the victim survives.
When the victim is dead as a direct result of the assault a conviction for Aggravated Assault is as much a travesty as anything else.
But that appears to be about par for the course with this show trial.
Would aggravated assault be the charge Trayvon would be facing if he had survived?
I prefer to call it felony assault. From what I understand of the beating received by Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin was in the act of committing a felony.
IF you are acting in self-defense, there is no crime. Period.
None. NOTHING “down the line”. At all. Even a little bit.
Now, I do not doubt the State using some dangle to get any conviction, including working hard to confuse the jury as to the law. I’ve seen it before.
I agree, they are dangling low fruit for the jury in the hopes they can salvage something. out of this unmitigated fiasco
But as a matter of facts, and logical application of the statutes as plainly written, the charge is complete manure.
In that sense it is a form of jury nullification, just one that is amenable to the interests of the state.
She is anally concerned with juror comfort and that pisses me off. These ladies know what is required of them and their momentary discomfort is small potatoes compared to the defendant who could be sent to prison for 30 years to life for a ‘crime’ he didn’t commit. I’m a total layperson but honestly…there’s so much wrong with this trial. The rulings, the rush, the charges in themselves. I remember having a similar bit of anger in years past at judges who seemed to cowtow to defendants and their rights. This judge is the polar opposite.
And now you understand why a defendant’s rights must be preserved to the utmost extent – even if they appear guilty as sin, any impartiality on the courts behalf would render and open/shut case into appeal
Judges ARE very, very deferential to their juries, and for many good reasons.
One is that many of the judges have to stand for re-election. Jurors are, perforce, VOTERS, and they tend to be active voters.
THESE juror are people who also stepped up (we will hope for good reasons) to fill a civic duty that puts them and their families, not merely at a real and deep inconvenience, but in potential material danger.
Another reason is that jurors are hard to come by.
After the last election, Bill Whittle made the astounding statement that, among CONSERVATIVES who were not registered to vote, the avoidance of jury duty was the prime motive.
Which ought to make all of us ashamed and amazed.
Where I fault the judge…and this is common to ALMOST ALLLLLL judges…is in not treating everyone more equitably in her courtroom.
I have been registered to vote in my town for 25+ years. Never get a jury summons. But maybe the police/courts know my rep. I demoralized the whole police force for a couple of years by writing an anti-dug war column every week.
You make it sound like jurors volunteer for the job. Not that I’ve seen.
I seldom end up selected for questioning, always get bumped (aspergers), but that is the most boring process I’ve gone through, even worse than waiting for the dentist.
New poster; great site. I’m a florida resident and I was on a criminal jury where there prime charge was first degree attempted murder. There were 7 or 8 jurors who heard the case; after the jury instructions 6 of us were told we were the deliberating jurors. The 2 others were free to leave the court. In our instructions we were given the charges from 1st Degree attempted murder all the way down to simple battery or assault. I took the judge about 2 hours to read all the instructions. So we were told we could find ‘NOT GUILTY’ or Guilty of anyone of the laundry list….ie if we did not find elements of 1st degree attempted we could move to 2nd degree (IIRC) and on down the line. FYI we deliberated for about 1 hour and found 1st degree attempted murder.
This whole prosecution has been orchestrated from the very beginning regardless on how hollow the state’s case was.
Even the judge is on the advocacy of convicting Zimmerman on flimsy and made up evidence.
Justice in America no longer is justice…
And it NEVER WAS. The idea that we USED to have a justice system is HISTORICALLY IGNORANT.
In about a million ways, our LEGAL system is better than it was in the past.
Which ONLY means it is better, and stands to be improved A LOT MORE.
OBAMA HAS DONE THIS KIND OF CR*P BEFORE: Look up the Michael Lee Anderson case. Obama was a Senator then and the Crump, Sharpton, et al machine helped turn this into political gain for Obama and CPUSA/NAACP, etc.
Felony (Third degree) Murder makes even less sense than Second degree Murder. That’s a killing while engaged in the commission of a crime (felony). That crime must also be supported by evidence. What felony crime was GZ supposedly engaged in the commission of when the shooting occurred?
The non-enumerated felony they’re alleging he was committing when he shot Trayvon Martin is CHILD ABUSE.
Are you effing kidding me?
Child abuse? Seriously? So keeping a kid in your line of sight is now classified as “child abuse” in Florida?
Is it “child abuse” in Florida if an adult fails to allow any person under the age of 18 to beat him into unconsciousness?
Didn’t you hear, he called the police. Thats not allowed in Florida.
Just from watching some of the HLN shows, it seems like a lot of people (lawyers) think carrying a gun and getting out of his truck are criminal offenses. I have been very disappointed that so many supposedly intelligent people have been willing to throw away whatever credibility they had in order to find a way to convict Zimmerman. Apparently, race is everything to them.
The state knows they over charged for the headlines & now they want the lesser charges b/c they have no case. They new that over a year and a half ago but know they’re looking to get aggravated assault which is a BS charge with no evidence for it. At most they should have charged manslaughter but they went for the headlines now prove it! Exactly!
The Manslaughter instruction has 3 possible ways of committing Manslaughter:
Give 2a, 2b, or 2c depending upon allegations and proof.
2. a. (Defendant) intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of (victim).
b. (Defendant) intentionally procured an act that caused the death of (victim).
c. The death of (victim) was caused by the culpable negligence of (defendant).
The defense should argue that b and c are not supported by the evidence in the case and should not be given to the jury.
rhorton1, what do you think GZ is guilty of now?
I have never indicated that I ever thought Zimmerman was guilty of anything. I opined at the beginning of the trial that that most likely verdict would be NG Murder II, G Manslaughter. Having heard the evidence I now think that the most likely verdict is
the manslaughter does not fly. It is self defense.
As expected, the State continues with its tactic of throwing stuff up against the wall to see if anything will stick by demanding that 3rd degree felony murder be included in the jury instructions.
Too bad we cannot go after the DA for littering.
Child abuse?
Child abuse by firearm?
Sounds more like brandishing or threatening or just waiving it around negligently is required.
Nothing has been placed in evidence other than the weapon was holstered until the TM tried to reach for it and the GZ shot him
CHILD ABUSE!!!
The Prosecution is being absolutely ludicrous and despicable here.
The tattooed parents (stepmother is also tattooed) allowing their underage son to get tattoos and gold teeth and their lifestyles is the real abuse of Trayvon Martin.
I have thought for a while now ***that the Martins are projecting their own real well-deserved guilt*** and culpability for the death of their son onto George Zimmerman!
Same old blame game. Liberals do this automatically.
He was a 17 yr old thug and the case Mantai referred to was overturned. What a dick.
Ridiculous.
OK, what is this man doing! They want a charge of Child Abuse now. Really??? Desperation seeps in to the prosecution…
Felony Murder?! Felony murder requires that the predicate felony be separate and distinguishable from the actual killing. This prosecutor is a bumbling moron. The law is just being completely ignored in this trial.
I just got here to listen. What the heck is child abuse charge?
He is using a felony charge of Child Abuse as an underlying felony to support Murder in the 3rd degree, but it is blowing my mind!!!!
aw, give mantei a break. if you had to live your live looking like chinless chipmunk with it’s tail on it’s forehead, you might turn out despicable, too.
and what is with that tuft of hair doing there? does he think it might fool people into thinking that he’s not bald?
Wow, the prosecution wakes up in a new la-la land every day. Child abuse?
Next charge – homicide while parked illegally.
Well done.
I knew it all along. Shaken baby syndrome!
Uh oh, guys. Diana Tennis says: “Judge very likely to give felony murder lessor.”
Given her track record thus far in this case, you can take that to the bank.
Oh, and by the way, “lessor” is someone who owns a property that it is put out to let, i.e. a rental property. That is distinct from “lesser,” which is the proper terminology.
Hey MattFL, welcome to the world of the spelling nazi 🙂
Good pick up and shame of Diana Tennis.
Yeah, I’ve seen a lot here, but I’ve been quieter than usual, because this site is more “serious” than my usual environs. Also, I often will ignore misspellings that are explained by a fat-finger, e.g. adjacent keys, because I know lots of people are typing with their thumbs these days.
If they’re now going to claim a separate crime, wouldn’t they have had to have argued that during the trial, introduced evidence to support it and allowed cross examination?
Yes. This is laughable…like so much else in the State’s conduct of this case.
There is a “notice” requirement that goes back to the Constitution.
A conviction on that would be booted before the ink was dry.
If TM was charged for his actions, he could have been tried as an adult
I laughed out loud when he said child abuse. Then I realized that we are dealing with the law so it does not have to make sense or acknowledge any sort of logic at all.
People who are engineers such as myself absolutely loathe this sort of willful stupidity that fails to exist in any reality outside of someone’s fevered imagination.
Mantei even sounded a bit sheepish when he started his argument, which is saying something given how shameless he is.
Child abuse? WTF?
You all here on this forum are now going to blame the jury if a guilty verdict comes in?
They will obviously be partially guilty for the travesty. The prosecution, judge, and race baiters will also share the blame.
Also, the people in the public who supported Zimmerman being charged despite their complete ignorance of the facts, and despite the lack of evidence will bear some responsibility. Just like when black men were lynched and people supported it or did not speak out against it. There is really no difference.
But that sort of division in the public was exactly the reason charges were brought at all. Some people fell for it. Some people didn’t.
Not assuming a guilty verdict here yet, but if it were to be…
You cannot even consider that they got it right?
That conclusion is precluded by the fact that this was a trial conducted despite the complete absence of evidence that a crime was committed.
Relevant tweet: “WTF is this? Felony Murder via Child abuse? That’s like holding a trial in English and giving your closing argument in French.”
Yay, West is pissed and he is going ballistic right now!!!
If you want to ask who started the fight, you must ask why didn’t TM go the 300-400 feet to his house and get safely inside.
EXACTLY!
We can pick a side in this, George’s, but the jury will have to consider both sides and what both men did that night.
Very good question.
My counter is – Did TM really know where the home was?
These cookie cutter condo developments have indistinguishable features and for a kid that’s been bounced between parents(reality is just the folks that conceived him) does he know the way back?
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV……………can someone explain briefly how once the charges are brought that at close the Prosecution can then decide that they want lesser charges after all? Somehow this seems skewed to me logically…………also can the Defense bring this up in closing remarks the way this has turned around suddenly.TIA anyone who might have a response.
Is this a veiled way for the prosecution to seek a plea bargain or rationalize their part in this whole farce?
Is the child abuse claim a way to appease the Martins?
By definition, a lesser included charge doesn’t require proof of any element that the encompassing crime does not, so charging a lesser included does not deprive the defendant of the right to defend against the charge.
The judge even looked a bit ashamed to be considering it… but she will find a way if she can.
The defense should argue that their lack of notice affected their presentation of the defense. Also, doesn’t the felony have to be charged?
The judge should throw the charge out simply because the prosecution are assholes.
I don’t understand how “charges” can be leveled against Zimmerman at the closing of his trial, without his having been made aware of the “charges against him” for which he was put on trial?
For some reason, the Dreyfus Affair comes to mind with this incredible travesty of justice. Once it was about anti-Semitism and now it is race that drives outcomes, not honesty or the law. Never knew this was happening in my country…
George Zimmerman is not a Jew. He is a Roman Catholic. There is no anti-Semitism, except from people who think that the name Zimmerman automatically means that the person is a Jew.
The judge isn’t throwing this out immediately?!?!?!?!
UN-FEAKING-BELIEVABLE ! ! !
I am simply speechless.
It’s just too much… I can’t watch another minute of this. Tomorrow can ‘t get here quickly enough.
Is it possible the State is hoping that during lunch Zimmerman will tell his attorney’s to offer a plea deal to a lesser charge by attempting to portray to him ‘we’re going to get you on something if we have to charge you with jaywalking?”
The state is throwing out a Hail Mary to screw up closing arguments. Now the defense may have to dance around child abuse? As one tweet said, where is the due process for this?
Meanwhile, the judge ought to simply throw it out the child-abuse. I can’t imagine it coming in.
Any Florida lawyers here? Don’t most, or all, of these child abuse offenses require knowledge on the perpetrator’s part that the child is, in fact, a child? IOW, wouldn’t prosecutors have to show that Zimmerman knew Martin was under 18? How would that have been possible, given the darkness, the hoodie, and Martin’s size?
The jury instruction for Aggravated Child Abuse (16.2) requires the victim to be under 18 years old. It does not require that the accused have knowledge of that fact.
Thanks Professor nonsense.
Oops. I apologize for not capitalizing your surname: Professor Nonsense.
Is this trial fixed??? Has someone gotten to the judge?
LOL! YESSSSSSSS!
DOJ-CRS
It’s called being “railroaded.”
I believe the whole trial, charges, prosecutors, judge, etc. is “fixed” in that politics made this case come before the court, not justice or the law. This is beyond belief that such a travesty could occur in this country in this day and age.
Barack Obama, Holder, et al are responsible for setting race relations back 100yrs in this country. They pushed for riots to get votes. Is there no one that will stand up to such incredible blatant malfeasance and abuse of office?
I have never in my whole life witnessed anything like this (60 years). Perhaps this goes on in third-world countries, I don’t know.
Obama seen nodding in approval.
No, my witnessing of third world (Latin American) justice is that, if the powers that be want to get you it happens suddenly, and usually after dark.
They don’t go in for these sorts of long, drawn out farces.
hey all you “friendly” floridians, employers and employees of the travel and hospitality industry.
this note is to inform you that, due to the misconduct by the state and it’s criminal justice system, by the people YOU ELECTED, in the future my family will be crossing Florida off of our list of vacation destinations.
I’ll miss Joe’s Stone Crab, but hey, they ship their crab now anyway.
Florida was once my home away from home.
no kidding. I have family in Mobile, AL and every summer we try and spend some time in the pan handle region. After this trial Florida will no longer be receiving. any of my money in tourism.
Where is O’Mara?
Preparing closing remarks?
He’s put a shoulder length brunette wig on the gray dummy and is in a room somewhere choking the life out of it.
How was GZ supposed to know that he was a so called child………does the Prosecution not have to show that GZ knew his age? He was quite big and one would have no way of knowing his age in spite of those silly photos the media put out there.
I almost hope that the child abuse angle is allowed, because I think it will backfire badly, showing the level of desperation of the prosecution to find anything that might stick.
However, I have no doubt that this tactic was planned from the very beginning, and it is unconscionable that the defense had no prior ability to know this tactic, to prepare for it, and to provide witnesses that would have destroyed the idea.
West isn’t half the attorney that O’Mara is.
3rd degree based on child abuse…. excus me while I clean my brains off the computer… my my exploding head make a mess. However, one can still function without brains and ethics… you can be prosecutors in Florida
Everybody is going to hate me for saying this, but Treyvon had just turned 17 and the State put his age in the charging document, AND West said that he and O’Mara had wondered why the State did that. Our guys are excellent, but they are just not as devious as the State to be able to figure out what was coming at them today.
Nelson is going to allow it, unless West finds the case law that crushes it! ;-(
No trial has ever made me angrier. I don’t know how MOM sits there so calm and collected. Surely there is invisible steam coming out of his ears.
This judge is guaranteeing an overturn on appeal if Zimmerman convicted of anything, that’s the only consolation.
I have this feeling West is about to commit 3rd degree felony assault on Mantie’s adolescent argument
Well Nelson gave him a pass on the child abuse for now
It wasn’t a pass, she just tabled it ’til later to get the smaller stuff out of the way.
This explains why Mantei is sitting in the big boy chair. He has given me the impression, throughout this trial, as being a sneaky, underhanded bastard. The child abuse move, clearly with a LOT of research behind it, is just such a sneaky move, and he’s the architect of it.
There’s got to be a way to charge felony kidnapping of a minor.
Martin was not free to go home; was forced to stop and beat the hell out of a creepy ass cracker; therefor detained by Zimmerman against his will. C’mon, you can do it!
The State is arguing for Judge Nelson to give improper jury instructions with the hope that they get a conviction. They know the verdict will be immediately overturned on appeal, but it gets this stink bomb of a case out of their hands.
I am surprised they haven’t thrown in aggravated jaywalking yet.
Wait for it…..wait for it….
I sense that this Judge wants to make an example out of George Zimmerman. Her heavy-handed actions yesteray, when she almost demanded that he testify, is unprecedented. She should be sanctioned for those abusive (intrusive) tactics against a Defendant and his Attorney.
Whew, the emotions here – Are you guys going to be the ones rioting?
I just don’t have the appropriate vocabulary to express myself right now. Must.calm.down.
Oh Mr. West, don’t you know that being a creepy ass cracker is a provocation. Just being a [white] hispanic is provocation to the race baiters.
I would almost like to see that felony murder pile put to the jury.
I think that would be the corker to them. I doubt it would take them longer to decide than electing a foreperson.
And, again, that would kicked by an appellate court before the ink got dry…out of a laser printer.
Bingo!
One thing I was disappointed by in this trial is that “These assholes, they always get away” and “funking punks” is in the plural – clearly referring to more than one person and not specifically referring to Trayvon Martin. Minor point, I know, but I would have brought it up.
I wondered why there was no objection to the way the prosecution was using those words in a completely misleading fashion. Instead of saying it with resignation the prosecutor was yelling it with bulging eyes.
You can characterize evidence if you are essentially stating it verbatim.
Thing is, jurors are not deaf or stupid. They heard that tape ad nauseam, and they heard the hyperbolic clownage of the State in mis-characterizing it.
Just to make sure the jury was aware of the theatrics MOM frequently made gentle references to instances of it in cross.
So Nelson has at least one or two brain cells firing ….. some things are too laughable even for this court.
West being asked to prove a negative now.
Judge arguing now it may be illegal to follow someone and she will not believe differently unless you can find a law explicitly allowing.
Everything is illegal unless explicitly allowed.
She is just not very bright.
Everything is illegal unless explicitly allowed.
That is standard progressive thinking.
That, combined with “that which is allowed must be mandated”.
She also, got the logic completely backwards as to who is being asked to prove a negative.
I just had a flash of how vacant a Marx Bros. movie would have been if you couldn’t follow someone…
especially a pretty someone. Harpo would be a serial offender!
Nelson: show me case law that following someone is not illegal.
other: show case law that any activity is not illegal.
Nelson: “Damnit, Mr. West, you find me a law that says sitting in your backyard or sleeping in one’s own bed is codified as legal! And cough it up right now!”
Mr West needs an ice cream break
And YOU need a Preparation-H treatment.
So wait: Because there is not a law that says it is not illegal to follow someone, the judge is going to allow the prosecution to argue that it is and leave the decision to the jury, essentially forcing the jury to make a decision as to the meaning of the law?
I thought the jury was only to be a finder of fact, not of law.
So did most Americans. But apparently that’s not the case in Flordia.
Nelson is not smart enough to understand the consequences of what she just ruled. The prosecution now has license to lie about the illegality of following someone if they choose to do so and the judge can’t stop them because she refused to make sure the jury would be informed of the state of the law.
Not sure what recourse she would have at that point.
Any time…ANY time…she has a lucid moment, she can reverse herself.
I mean…just DAMN…
Nelson: hey, let’s just get to the conviction. If the appeals court doesn’t like it, they can fix it.
Nelson looks like she’s ready to do some ground & pound on West.
Nelson seems to just want this case done(does she have weekend plans)and to heck with anything…….just take it to the Appeals Court if it is wrong. Geesh this woman gives Judges and the system a terrible face when one thinks Justice.
Since the judge refused to include following in the instructions, can the defense point out during their closing that following someone is not illegal?
Also, this entire incident took place on private property, not on a public street. This was in a gated community. Typically, the HOA owns the common areas, and the individual homeowners (of which Zimmerman was one) are the HOA. Zimmerman was on his own property, and he was protecting his own property. He had every legal right to follow Martin.
Yes, I believe he can.
Unfortunately, what he cannot tell the jury is that the judge refused to tell them this, thus throwing them to the wolves vis-a-vis the State’s misrepresentation of that fact.
When I awoke this morning, I didn’t think my opinion of this justice system could be any lower. How wrong I was!
.
So all things are now illegal unless allowed by specific statute. I think I’m gonna puke.
Anyone else waiting for O’mara to come storming through the courtroom doors with a cape on and a pile of case law to refute the child abuse BS?
Can George’s attorneys go now to the Appeals Court, or do they have to wait? I’d go now if I could.
If I were them I would be drafting the grounds for appeal now and submit them to the Appeals Court the moment that the guilty verdict comes in.
The appellate court does not have jurisdiction to consider a case until the judgment in the trial court is “final”. The judgment does not become final until the sentence is pronounced.
Actually they are allowed to intervene when the judge is being improper and/or the case is just a travesty. Also, the Governor should intervene here.
The governor DID intervene. That is how we got here.
This is just beyond the pale, the Appeals Court should intervene here.
I think MOM specifically asked Detective Serino if there was anything wrong with following someone and I think he answered “legally, no.”
So what’s the score now? 10-0 in favor of the prosecution?
Now, now. She DID rule in favor of keeping the Donnelly testimony.
That was big.
Only because both West and OM did such a good job of explaining that Donelly heard nothing relating to any of his testimony did she rule as she did, IMO. I think she was snapping at the bit to toss it if she could have half-way reasonably ruled for the State.
West should have asked to be pointed to the statute book of legally allowed actions so he could provide her the cite she was asking for.
How can you be convicted of something that was not argued during the trial ?
They did argue it during trial, but in a very stealth way. That is why they stuck “Trayvon Martin, a person under the age of 18” in the charging document. That is why West is so angry. This isn’t something that the state decided to do last night. This was planned from the beginning. There was a conspiracy to deny GZ his constitutional rights from the beginning, and the state has pulled every legal trick out of the book that they can.
Even those of you who are TM proponents must be alarmed at this. After all, tactics like this are used against criminal defendants all the time, and this is exactly the kind of behavior that blacks have been complaining about for years.
The legal system is not about justice. It is a big game played by attorneys, with the lives and fortunes of defendants being a mere sideshow, and justice not even an afterthought.
Please one of the lawyers on here correct me if I’m wrong. But TM being 17 does not prove child abuse. I believe that among other things they’d have to at least show that he was abused. The only evidence they have showing GZ even touched TM is the one eye witness that said the larger man was on top, and even that is in contradiction to all other physical evidence and closer eye witness testimony. Yes GZ shot him, but if that was a crime (eg not self defense) then it’s flat out the crime (eg muder/manslaughter) not child abuse.
f State wants to charge ZM with child abuse, are they also pressing charges against the father for the same (as kid was unsupervised and out on the neighborhood while daddy was away on a date?)
So is the Judge going to instruct the Jury on Self Defense? Since that has been the defenses entire case?
Excellent point.
I recommend Jeralyn’s take on the case at this point. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/11/22341/3139/crimenews/Benjamin-Crump-Who-Screamed-Doesn-t-Matter
She closes with this line, with which I agree wholeheartedly.
Is it wrong at this point to just hope for a mistrial so perhaps there can be another judge? This judge is so out of her depth…I always ask myself ‘what would a reasonable person believe/think/do’ and there is nothing reasonable about 90% of her rulings or the way this monkey court has operated. Just reminds me of the court scene in “Idiocracy” every day. “judge should be like ‘GUILTY’….peace out”
Yes, it’s probably wrong to hope for a mistrial unless you thought you had a bad jury or the defense did not put on a good case. Most likely the State would put on a better case in a second trial as they have now seen the defense strategy and would probably find some better witnesses to call.
This Judge would be out of her depth in a parking lot puddle.
I’m getting the idea that Nelson doesn’t really like the whole Felony Murder-Child Abuse thing, but since the state brought it up, she is legally obligated to allow it, if the facts of the case fit the law. She’s said a couple things to West that could be argued are “hints” of how to argue against it.
She is trying to think of a way to spit the crap sandwich back out, but if the defense had offered something that absurd she never would have nibbled at it and would have dismissed out of hand.
Hi, Matt,
Thanks for the comment. I do want to ask, are you an attorney? I’m just asking because am curious to know if there are attorneys on here now. It would be good to have input by them about all of this C-R-A-P.
I’m not an attorney, I just read fast. 🙂
There are several attorneys that have been commenting here, but they seem to have taken the morning off. 🙁
Experts do tend to sit back to think things over when they run into something new.
Or flabbergasting.
To expand on my comment about Nelson not liking the Third Degree-Child Abuse thing…
They just recessed for lunch, and she indicated that they would take up the Third Degree Felony Murder issue when they returned at 1:00, and that the defense should be prepared to argue it at that time.
West said he’d “do his best,” but that was only an hour, and as he’d mentioned, this issue had been dumped on them at 7:30 this morning with 15 case citations, etc. Nelson’s response was, “I understand” and she sorta smiled when she said it, but… it’s hard to describe, but it was like she was saying, “I know you only have an hour, so do the best you can, because this is going away anyway.” It almost seems like if the defense gives her anything to hold onto while denying the Felony Murder stuff, she’ll take it. She just needs some sort of lifeline to base her ruling on.
I could be completely wrong, but that’s just the read I got from her demeanor when she talked about it. I hope I’m right.
I got exactly the same vibe. I hope you’re right {fingers crossed!}
Outstanding. I like being right. Even if Nelson is somewhat biased toward the prosecution, Felony Murder-Child Abuse was still “a bridge too far.”
Anybody else catching the tweets about the bomb threat in the civil courthouse in Sanford? (across the street from this trial according to local sources)
The civil courthouse isn’t across the street, it’s across town, about 5 miles away.
This is what caught my eye:
” Kathi Belich, WFTV @KBelichWFTV
Sanford PD chief told @KRayWFTV that bomb threat could be an effort to draw cops away from #Zimmermanon9, among other possibilities.”
It just seemed like an odd official statement. Usually that type of opinion is held a little closer to the vest…
Nelson: Stop saying the word trick, i will not abide truth being told in my courtroom!
Does anyone know if this is a pro-prosecution judge who normally favors the State or one of those infamous Florida judges who give out suspended sentences on a daily basis? She looks to me like the latter who has switched sides for this one case and is out of her normal waters.
This Judge is an embarrasment to the entre Judicial System
I think she is a family court judge.
Her being a family court judge would explain a lot. In family court there are few rules of evidence, false accusations of violence and sexual abuse are rampant, and there’s only one real rule: the man is always guilty.
Who’s the prosecutor (persecutor) who looks like a chipmunk? Is that Mantei, Mantie?
Anyway, wonder how he’d feel if a 17-year-old thug fighter got on top of him and did the ground-and-pound thing?
I also thought that if you’re 17 years old and commit a crime, that you can be charged as an adult. Is it different by states? I’m in Texas.
Prosecution just lied to the judge about what the experts testified to in court… is there not some rule against that?
Apparently, in Flordia, prosecutors can lie with impunity.
I wish we could dispense with the word “prosecutors” and refer to them from now on as “typical state employees.”
Persecutors?
I am waiting for the Prosecution to just ask the Judge to include that they must find GZ Guilty and be done with all the brouhaha back and forth. The Defense can simply appeal if she is wrong………./sarc/ wish I had a sarc font
I think george may be needing more legal donations pretty soon.
How much are you giving?
He’s going to be convicted of manslaughter.
I actually think a Hung Jury is much more likely.
I hope it is a Hung Jury.
There are Vietnamese jurors…???
If a million right-thinking people would give $10 each. I and several of my friends have already done more. I believe a local doctor pretty much paid for Di Maio