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Leaving New York (no, not me, just a lot of other folks)

Leaving New York (no, not me, just a lot of other folks)

But, still more attractive than a third-world country!

This is no surprise, particularly given the dismal economic situation in upstate NY.

The government under pressure from political activists shut down any hope of fracking even though it works fine elsewhere and has kept parts of Pennsylvania economically alive for years; regulations and taxes are strangling businesses; and almost every day brings a news story about how much more control the state wants over our lives.

So people continue to leave. (h/t @michellemalkin)

The Albany Times Union reports on the large outflow, offset only by immigrants and immigrant children:

Once again more people are leaving New York State than arriving here, at least when it comes to people moving from one state to another.

The Empire Center is out with findings, based on periodic Census updates, that “During the 12 months ending last July 1, 153,921 more residents moved out of New York than moved into it from other states.” ….

The study also notes that 653,071 people have moved out of New York since the 2010 Census making fo the the largest such decrease of any state.

Despite that, the state’s overall population of more than 19 million people is growing slightly. That’s because of the continued arrival of immigrants who come to New York, which is exceeded only by California.

Moreover, immigrant families have a relatively high number of kids, which also adds to the population count.

Other studies confirm the exodus of New Yorkers.

United Van Lines, which conducts national surveys of its moving customers, found that in 2014 New Jersey, New York and Connecticut led the ”outbound” migration of people going to other states.

Here’s a chart of the migration pattern:


The good news?

If the choice is New York as opposed to a third world country, it’s attractive, hence the immigration numbers.

The bad news?

If the choice is New York as opposed to a third world country, it’s attractive, hence the immigration numbers.


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It’s even worse when you look at who’s leaving: the producers.

    MattMusson in reply to wcvarones. | December 28, 2015 at 12:32 pm

    Citizens (especially middle class) moving out. Immigrants moving in.
    Change the name from New York to New Delhi.

      Subotai Bahadur in reply to MattMusson. | December 28, 2015 at 1:59 pm

      If the immigrants were largely Indian, it would be a net plus. However the new name of the city probably will end up being either Nuevo Tijuana, or New Karachi. This is not going to end well. For New Yorkers.

One would think people would be attracted to Buffalo for no other reason than the delightful year round climate and the joys of multicultural diversity it offers.

Why should any state need census data to know what is happening in the state? Is it any surprise that dem controlled states are losing productive people? It’s really difficult to live around idiots.

legacyrepublican | December 28, 2015 at 12:23 pm

The need to ask New Mexico for permission to change their state motto to…

Land of Disenchantment

Hope they’re not coming South. They never assimilate.

    Kerri in reply to hvlee. | December 28, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    Unfortunately many of them are coming to North Carolina…bringing their big tax and spend liberal politics with’em !

    gasper in reply to hvlee. | December 28, 2015 at 3:44 pm

    Remarkable isn’t it? Union workers “Up North” take their pensions and flee South to spend it. Yet taxpayers continue to vote “yes” on these lucrative pensions which they themselves will not receive. Then those retired union workers become the majority in states they fled to and vote for the same kind of politicians who destroyed the cities and states they fled from.

      Milwaukee in reply to gasper. | December 28, 2015 at 5:49 pm

      The ones who have been gouging the system, say public union employees, are the ones who can afford to move south. So they do. The leeches have the cash to travel.

      Myself, I’m planning on moving to Texas. Since I once dated a girl whose grandmother tutored Willey Joe Namath at Alabama, my assimilation contribution will be to root for ‘Bama. Besides, Nick Saban’s daddy once coached the Denver Broncos.

I spent a year in upstate NY in 2008-2009. Upstate had been devastated by the state government. Insane regulations and insane taxes have destroyed almost all industry. The citizens exist to provide for the government.

They have 6% property taxes which means that housing never increases in value and is inordinately expensive. They have 11% sales tax on everything. This includes food, medicine, labor and visits to doctors.

The regulations are terrible also. My bosses wife closed down her construction company because they just changed the law so she was liable for the actions of her subcontractors even if they have insurance. That means if one of her subs was drunk and killed someone on the way to work she could lose everything she owned.

There is nothing that the up-staters can do to fix this because the progressive fascists in NYC determine who runs the state and they don’t care.

    Milhouse in reply to ConradCA. | December 28, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    They have 11% sales tax on everything. This includes food, medicine, labor and visits to doctors.

    This is a falsehood. The state sales tax is 4%, and does not apply to any of the things you mentioned. Some cities have an additional local sales tax, but the highest rate is in NYC, which charges an additional 4.875%, again not including any of the things you listed.

      Sammy Finkelman in reply to Milhouse. | December 28, 2015 at 2:39 pm

      Also: There is no sales tax on rent, a big expense. Nor subway or bus fares, at least public ones. Car services don’t seem to charge tax. I think Uber does.

      Newspapers and magazines also seem not to be subject to sales tax, and, for the last half a dozen or more years, clothing retailing for under $110 has not been subject to sales tax.

      Accessories, yes.

      So, shoelaces are not taxed, but some kinds of hats are, or at least the Internet seller claims.

      Store coupons reduce tax, because they are a reduction in price, but manufacturer’s coupons seem not to do so or to reduce only half. Manufacturer’s coupons include coupons deducted at the register because a loyalty card is being used, if they are labeled manufacturer’s coupons.

      Seltzer is taxed, unless it is bought with food stamps. This is also true for soda, I think. Register slips will contain the code B for those things. T is Taxable item and F is food. These codes appear on spermarket grocery slips – drugs stores, where much is exempt, don’t seem to have them.

      Snacks are the only kind of food taxed – that’s a kind of late innovation, although it predates the elimination of sales tax on lower priced clothing – and different retailers may classify the same things differently.

      Restaurant meals also get taxed.

      Tickets for events may have the sales price included in the price, and you may notice this if you look at the small print, but most things have to have the sales tax specifically added to the quoted and advertised price.

      Copying machines in drug stores that charge 5 cents a copy are theoretically subject to sales tax, but if the money is collected by the machine, there’s no way to charge it. In situations where you pay at the cash register you may or may not be charged. Public libraries, where you now tend to pay with a library issued card, not coins, never charge sales tax, but Staples I think does for copies.

      Non-profit (or charitable) institutions, including religious institutions, are tax exempt, but must use a rax exempt ID number. Glatt Mart doesn’t bother, but instead charges wholesale price for everything.

      Gasoline has its separate tax. Automobiles have all the paper and tax collection work done by the dealer.

      Little known fact: The seller gets to keep 1 1/4% (I am not sure of the exact percentage) of the 4% New York State sales tax collected.

      Items bought out of state, if brought nto the state, if they would be subject to sales tax in New York state, are subject to use tax, and it would be extremely complicated to pay for it, but the state income tax forms provide for safe harbor which covers all items costing under $1,000 not used in business, which, however, few people use.

      Artwork and jewelry are particular items for audit.

A couple of disparate thoughts
Wherever they go, they’ll probably continue to vote for the stupid ticket. Either party, either way. You get Peter King from New York, then Kevin McCarthy from California. Both representative of their respective states. Tubby Tompkins & Little Lulu.
Enjoy your new residents professor. As in California they’ll fit right in.

I couldn’t afford a home in upstate NY solely for the taxes. Taxes were so high they were more than the mortgage payment in some areas and it was like renting from the government. Bought home in Florida instead.

    Another Voice in reply to GeminiAura. | December 28, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    A few years back my youngest son bought a house on a 30 year mortgage with a monthly pay back amount which was “”. Then he received the payment schedule incorporating escrow for taxes and came to me and asked why his “monthly house payments” were 3X’s greater than the contract. I replied, “You live in New York State, welcome to reality”.

Sammy Finkelman | December 28, 2015 at 2:07 pm

Upstate New York has been losing population for many years.

This is actually about upstate New York, north of Orange, or maybe Ulster county.

When she was a Senator, keeping people (and an Electoral Vote or two, seats in Congress and seats in the state legislature) in upstate New York was one of Hillary Clinton’s prime causes, and she would sympathize with parents whose children were moving away and the like, although, as was to be expected, she never was for anything that would work.

What you needed, of course, were more small banks that made business loans.

The same thing was happening in Massachusetts when I left, and what seemed to be happening was the middle and upper middle classes were leaving (some with the tech jobs that got strangled out of Mass and went to Texas) and being replaced by a large illegal immigrant population. Those left behind have to foot that bill on their own (well, Obama-Kerry-Warren were funneling a lot of money into Mass, too, for all the entitlements), hence the rising costs of RomneyCare and other assorted taxes (which were in turn making people move to cheaper pastures).

Like New York, Massachusetts has a large non-progressive population outside the Boston metro area / Cape and the Berkshires, but they didn’t have much of a voice (I used to marvel at the election maps; those areas elected progressives, while the rest of the state tended to go for more JFK-type Democrats).

Florida is seeing the result of this displacement, as the state turns more “purple” to “blue,” these people are actually coming down here and voting for the same horrible policies that made their own state unlivable. (It’s not just Florida, either, a lot of Southern and Midwestern states are the unhappy recipients of progressives who ruined their own states and are more than happy to move in and ruin ours).

Anyway, didn’t mean to go on so long. I haven’t really checked back in on that kind of news from Massachusetts since I left, so I wonder if they ever tried to right their ship (doubt it with Deval Patrick in office until early this year; he’s an Obama clone in terms of ideology and policy).

Humphrey's Executor | December 28, 2015 at 3:16 pm

And yet they sit on a “bonanza” of shale oil/gas wealth. Madness.

The problem of outward migration and its impacts is only going to get worse. For Republicans or Conservatives as well as for business owners, New York is an increasingly hostile place. The remedy is to move away. But, as these people do that the state’s population continues to get “bluer and bluer,” that is more Democrat-Liberal and so moves deeper into taxes and regulations. It is a death spiral. The writer would join the exodus if younger and if there were warm weather states that were not in the Democrat-Liberal camp.

Up State New Yorkers have been for years marginalized by over regulations and high taxes to fit the agenda of what is enacted as legislation in Albany for Downstate New York.

Starting at Orange County and south to the tip of Long Island, New York City plays a political powerhouse in how the “game is played” pandering to not just city residents, but the people who live in the outer counties who feed the machine. No where in the dynamics, is Upstate given consideration until the year immediately preceding a state election.

Upstate has a strong conservative voting base and goodly share of the counties are Republican strong holds for all the good it does them in Albany when out voted by the populace democrats of downstate. As a result, it is Upstate New Yorkers who have and are going to continue to lose the seats at the table as they exodus New York State taking their businesses, employees w/job skills and retirees w/ retirement incomes and assets to other states where there is less regulation, lower taxes and retained earnings for spending. While those who remain and are locked into this state for a myriad of reasons, find themselves more devalued by the cost of picking up the tab for an existing and ever growing enhanced welfare state. Adding to the this system, a replacement populace of a ballooning immigrant population who are non-citizens but receivers of tax payer programs.

Creating a “Catch-22”; Those who are not leaving are finding themselves priced out of a middle class economy and unable to support the mandates of state regulations and becoming users of the welfare system themselves in order to make ends meet. Who will be the Upstate NY taxpayer/citizen voter who will be charged by the state to pay the tab when all is left are users rather than contributors in these Upstate counties?

Out United States constitution has a House of Representatives, which represents the people and is proportionately distributed, by population. The Senate was to represent the states, and Senators were to be representatives of the state legislature. Two things undermined the process. One is direct election of U. S. Senators.

States were in a similar manner. The United States Supreme Court has made state senates be like the state house of representatives, which gives large cities like New York too much power. Having state senate seats based on geographic areas keeps the balance. We need to over turn the amendment and have state legislatures elect U. S. Senators, and state senates based on areas.

    Another Voice in reply to Milwaukee. | December 28, 2015 at 6:38 pm

    What you have pointed out is valid, but it is the NY State cesspool of corruption which is called state government that perpetuates the status quo in Albany. The larger population and election of democrats of State Senators and Assemblyman to the legislature are there as a result of Downstate cronyism and the money that comes with it. They are rewarded to bring “home the bacon” for all involved. Consideration to upstate comes at a premium by “Three-Men-A-Room” negotiations in Albany to throw scraps to upstaters. Recently there have been some major convictions in Federal Court attesting to how deep the corruption goes with continuing investigations still in the pipeline to see more of the same. All of the convictions (40 to date) including two senators and who were a party to “Three-Men-In-A-Room” negotiated legislation and budget deals were from NY City Districts. Governor Cuomo, being the third “In-the-Room” and also a New York Cityite but living next door in Westchester County, hometown of Hillary, is now holding his breath on the 2nd act to follow. We upstate can only hope he holds his breath long enough until he is pronounced “D.O.A.” or a major Federal conviction of misappropriation of state funds sends him too to Federal Prison, which ever comes first.

      Milwaukee in reply to Another Voice. | December 28, 2015 at 7:08 pm

      Could I summarize your reply by saying there is so much corruption money in the big city of New York that they could afford to throw some money to a few upstate people to give themselves greater cover?

      Once a system becomes corrupted, cleaning up is mighty hard to do.

      In Colorado Jefferson, Boulder, and Denver counties can carry a state election.

      The larger population and election of democrats of State Senators and Assemblyman to the legislature are there as a result of Downstate cronyism and the money that comes with it.

      Um, the state senate is dominated by Republicans, and thus at least one of the “three men in a room” is always a Republican (two when there’s a R governor). Upstate voters get their say in the senate.

        Another Voice in reply to Milhouse. | December 29, 2015 at 1:28 pm

        “Um, the state senate is dominated by Republicans, and thus at least one of the “three men in a room” is always a Republican (two when there’s a R governor). Upstate voters get their say in the senate.”

        The reality to counter this statement is the current and previous Governor’s have been democrats but one and all from NY City, where in one resigned for visiting Client 9, one had charges brought for misuse of public assets, and one who was a Republican who brought his NYC RINO badge to Albany and wore it behind closed doors as in “Three Men In A Room” and the current governor who is in the short hair’s of an ongoing federal investigation. As to the Republican Senator “In The Room”, he was a senior 4 termer from Upstate who learned how to play politics the Albany/New York City way and one of the recently convicted legislators (1 of 40) in federal court for lying about arranging “client/business referrals” to a law firm if they were to employ his son.

      NY State Senate leader and Republican Dean Skelos and his son Adam, convicted this month, may turn state’s evidence in January for lesser sentences. It’s not just Assembly Speaker Silver. The state’s evidence would be against and implicate Cuomo in the massive corruptions. Meanwhile Carl Paladino (the favorite of us Tea Partiers in 2010 – I attended one of his small events and met him) is contemplating running again for governor. Cuomo needs to go, and go to prison.

      I moved to NY (Orange County) in 1995 from L.A. The states are very different in some ways but sickeningly similar in others – the main one being both chase the Producers out in favor of the Looters. We desperately want out of this state (TX sounds good) but can’t yet due to job and other obligations. When we go, the kids and grandkids are going with us. It’s all planned except for the date. Aiming for 3 – 5 years from now max. This place is insane and we’re not even technically upstaters. By the way, when I have visited L.A. the last few times, it bore no relation to the L.A. I knew 20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. Sick and sad.

    gospace in reply to Milwaukee. | December 28, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    Reynolds v. Sims is the case that enabled liberalism to triumph. Jefferson County NY 1800 square miles,population 120,000 or so, used to have two state senators, as did Westchester NY, 500 square miles, a million or so people. The priorities of rural life are far far different then those of highly congested suburban and urban areas. But Reynolds vs Sims ensured that rural residents in large states would have no say in how state governments were run. The NY SAFE Act would have been DOA if counties had equal representation in the upper house as states do in the Senate.

    There’s no point in having two legislative bodies with the Reynolds v. Sims ruling. The upper body simply becomes a rubber stamp for the lower body. A constitutional amendment to undo that would result in a major course correction for the nation.

      Milwaukee in reply to gospace. | December 28, 2015 at 7:20 pm

      In Colorado it was Lucas v. Colorado 44th General State Assembly, 1963, I think. Why the United States Constitution is written this way yet states doing it is unconstitutional is beyond me. Clearly I am not smart enough to sit on the United States Supreme Court.

      But then they are so clever they legitimized abortion out of an imaginary right to privacy and same-sex marriage out of thin air.

        Milhouse in reply to Milwaukee. | December 28, 2015 at 9:10 pm

        The reason is actually very clear. The United States is a federation of formerly sovereign states, and a condition of their union was that all states would be equally represented in the senate. The states are not federations of counties; rather the counties are creations of the states. A state could have equal representation for counties, but only if it made sure to keep the counties’ population approximately equal, by changing their boundaries every ten years (which states absolutely have the power to do, while the USA does not have the power to change state boundaries). But to insist on equal representation for the counties while keeping their populations unequal is a blatant violation of the Republican Guarantee clause and the 14th amendment, and a revival of the Rotten Boroughs of the bad old days in the UK.

          Milwaukee in reply to Milhouse. | December 29, 2015 at 12:58 am

          “But to insist on equal representation for the counties while keeping their populations unequal is a blatant violation of the Republican Guarantee clause and the 14th amendment,…”

          When the country was started, the states had senates based on geographic size, not population. So I’m not sure at all the Republican Guarantee applies. They knew states had a senate set up that way. As for the 14th amendment, would you please elaborate on why it precludes a state having a senate chamber based on a region and not population? That is an interpretation of the amendment the drafters of the amendment did not intend, or they would have explicitly stated it. Why is there such a long time lapse between the adoption of that amendment and that interpretation of the amendment? A supreme court making things up.

          Milhouse in reply to Milhouse. | December 29, 2015 at 1:43 am

          At federation there were many states whose forms of government were not entirely republican. The most egregious example was Maine, which eventually led to a revolution. And when Mainers brought their case to the Supreme Court, it said that the Guarantee was not justiciable, i.e. that it was up to the president to send in troops to support the Maine rebels, and to Congress to seat the rebels’ senators and representatives, but no court could compel them to do these things.

          And it took a long time for the 14th amendment’s Equal Protection clause to be taken seriously in this matter, but in hindsight it’s almost impossible not to see the violation.

      Milhouse in reply to gospace. | December 28, 2015 at 9:20 pm

      There’s no point in having two legislative bodies with the Reynolds v. Sims ruling. The upper body simply becomes a rubber stamp for the lower body.

      Facts are stubborn things. Despite your theory, the fact, which you could easily have found out if you didn’t already know, is that the NY senate is the very opposite of a rubber stamp for the Assembly. On the contrary, the Assembly is permanently controlled by a Democrats, while the Senate is almost as permanently controlled by Republicans. They rarely agree at first on anything, which is why the “three men in a room” system developed in the first place.

I am fully aware that the NYS Senate is more full of RINOSs then the federal senate. The SAFE act passed the REPUBLICAN State Senate in 2013. So much for them being Republicans. Currently the senate is controlled by the Republicans only because several elected Democrats are caucusing with the Republicans. Note- they haven’t crossed over to being Republican. As far as the 3 men in a room go, that’s really a joke when it comes to fiscal sanity. A few years back, when I lived in the Albany area, and the Republican controlled senate was by one seat Republican, the 3 men sat in a room with proposed budgets of X, (X+A), and (X+B). The final compromise was just a little over (X+A+B). Great compromise. But the important thing was- every senator and assemblyman got his or her pork. So everyone was happy, but the taxpayers.

So like I said, the upper house is for the most part, nothing but a rubber stamp. I know there was a unwritten agreement in place for years that in certain districts the Republicans wouldn’t run a serious candidate, and in others, the Democrats wouldn’t. But, the old guys have died off. The agreement is no longer in place.

It is actually amazing that Sheldon Silver’s corruption got so bad that he was actually prosecuted. And convicted.

    Milhouse in reply to gospace. | December 29, 2015 at 12:11 am

    So like I said, the upper house is for the most part, nothing but a rubber stamp.

    On the contrary, you just spent a long time admitting that it’s not so. The upper house has a very different agenda from the lower, and does not rubber stamp what the lower house does. The two houses negotiate and compromise, as is supposed to happen. The fact that both houses want pork doesn’t support your claim; everyone wants pork for their own constituents, and upstaters generally want more pork than downstaters.

    Milhouse in reply to gospace. | December 29, 2015 at 12:15 am

    Oh, and Silver’s corruption didn’t “get bad”, any more than Skelos’s did. What changed was Bharara, a man with an agenda of his own, intent on bringing down all three of the “three men”. He’s taken down two, and now by all reports is turning on Cuomo. But to do this he’s relying on brand new legal theories that are untested and at least somewhat frightening. Silver and Skelos were certainly not on notice of these theories; as far as they knew there was no law they could be convicted under.