#Ferguson Eye Witness Intimidation: Chilling Details
“I Googled my name and I seen my picture, and it said like snitches get stitches. Been nervous and scared.”
The official transcript of the Ferguson Grand Jury continues to be fascinating as I chug my way past the 20% reading mark.
A portion of the current eye witness testimony before me, that of Interview #4 taken on September 17 , was particularly engaging however.
The reason? It shows in visceral detail some of the explicit and coordinated efforts to physically intimidate eye witnesses from speaking with law enforcement, and how genuinely frightened these efforts made those witnesses.
I’ve reproduced the relevant section of Interview #4 below, and the entire length of that interview is embedded at the bottom of this post. (This interview did not take place before the Grand Jury itself, but rather the audio recording of the interview conducted at an earlier date was played for the Grand Jury.)
There are three interviewers, whom I have labelled (as best I was able to discern from the transcript) as “Unknown,” “Mr.,” and “Ms.,” at least one of whom is an FBI Special Agent and another of which is an attorney with the prosecutor’s office. (It is possible the “unknown” category should be assigned to some combination of “Mr.” and “Ms.”) The witness is labelled as “I4.” All identities and identifying information has been redacted in the official transcript.
The interview has been going on for some time when one of the persons leading the questioning interrupts the substantive discussion:
Unknown: I want to impress upon you something.
Unknown: That we have observed and it is throughout the investigation because I feel like you might be a little bit cautious in your, careful, with your words in the sense of, we are aware on, the pressure that exist. Are you still living in Canfield?
Unknown: So, and I’m sure this is still a big deal. This is going to be a big deal for a very, very long time.
I4: Yes, it is definitely.
Unknown: And you have been on the news, right?
Unknown: And you have people come up to you and talk to you about that, people up in the community.
I4: Yeah, they, yeah, they seen me, they say they seen me and stuff like that.
Unknown: Okay. I also want you to understand you talking to us today, we don’t go tell people we talk to you. It is completely confidential.
Unknown: We take every precaution to protect your information. So this is not going to be out in the community, this is not going to be told, they’re not going to say you snitched or you didn’t fight for Mike Brown enough.
We need 100 percent honesty and clarity, and we are not going to say, we are not on one side of the other, you know, this isn’t for—for the search for the truth, okay?
Unknown: So I want you to be confident that you can trust us and trust us to say that we’re not going to make, we are ot going to skew your testimony, okay?
Unknown: This is it, okay?
Unknown: This is what it is.
I4: I understand. Just so you guys know, I am very, very nervous about everything since, since that day to now.
Unknown: And that’s completely normal to be nervous, nervous to talk to us, nervous in general. Is there anything in particular that you are nervous about more so than others?
I4: Um, I’m, um, I have been, I’ve just been just kind of scared, just kind of scared. Especially, you know, with the interviews. I stopped doing the interviews, I stopped after I did one with [redacted]— [emphasis added–AFB]
I4: –on a Friday. After that I felt sick, I started worrying.
Mr. Why is that?
I4: I don’t know, I just started something, like something may happen, you know. I started thinking about, wait a minute, I done did quite a few interviews and I don’t have a lawyer and why do everybody else have lawyers when they put out the very first interview, you know.
I Googled my name and I seen a lot of stuff and I come across something, uh, that somebody put, I seen my picture, and it said like snitches get stitches, and then under it says something about people keep talking, they are going to get [redacted], you know, we are going to do something to you. [emphasis added–AFB]
Mr.: What’s that?
I4: I don’t know. It’s spelled [redacted]. You know, I’m not even sure what that is, but I’ve just been nervous and scared, and I have been letting everybody know about my time in and where I’m going and stuff like that. [emphasis added–AFB]
So, uh, but like I said, until this day, but it has been like two weeks, two, three weeks now, you know, no reporters at my house or nothing, no calls. You know, I’m kind of, I’m still in my regular day and going to work every day, taking care of my family and stuff, doing the same thing every day. I don’t go nowhere, but I come home, you know, so.
But I’m keeping it cool, but the ones like at work, I—I tell them because I don’t show it neither. Like when I be at work, I have a smile on my face all the time, you know, I don’t show it until they, I seen you on TV and want to talk about it and stuff like that. And I tell them how I feel, you know. So I’m just staying cool though, you know.
I4: But very nervous.
Unknown: This is the first time you are talking to us and we can treat that as a first time.
Unknown: You are a, you are now a federal witness, and with that comes certain intentions [sic, presumably “protections]. So we want to make sure you are comfortable.
So, I mean, we would like to offer you water, you are more than entitled to, if you want to get up and take and walk around and if that makes you feel more comfortable, but.
I4: I’m fine right now.
Ms.: Yeah, and we want you to know if at any point someone does intimidates you or let me be specific, to intimidates you or scares you or you feel somehow more nervous than general nervousness, you certainly should, um, call [redacted], I know you have her number here at the FBI. Because witness information is something apart from everything else. It could be a crime.
So we are trying to be specific, okay, not some [inaudible].
Ms.: General nervousness is normal, especially like in (inaudible). If there is anything in particular that makes you nervous at all, we want to know that. So is there anything in particular or just a general feeling from Goggling [sic] yourself/
I4: Um, that, um, one moment, um, at the time when the audio came out about the shooting, let me see, like a week and a half earlier before that I stopped doing interviews, I didn’t receive no calls, I was fine. I could go home and enjoy.
So when that came out, I started getting calls again, they was at my house while I was at work trying to come up to my job.
Mr.: And who were they that you are referring to?
I4: The reporters, news reporters.
I4: And um, let’s see, maybe the same day I knew it was on the tube that when it aired on the news and stuff like that, it was on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. I had to go pick up my fiancée about 9:30 that night to leave out of my house to go pick her up. I know that day I received a call from a reporter at six something. And another call at seven or eight something and then I got a tet like just before 9:00.
I had top put up my little son’s car seat in the car. So I went outside to go and do that and as soon as, right when I gets to my car, a lady just runs up, it is dark now. And at this time I notice there is not a lot of people out, I know that for sure, but she just runs up, just runs up, hey [redacted] can you do another interview, you know, but she was nice. She just ran up, you know, like it was, I was already scared at that point.
But I just, I looks at a lot of movies and stuff and it just gets me thinking like, like if anybody was trying to at that time, you know, that was a good opportunity at that time.
You know, I think of stuff like that.[emphasis added–AFB]
Ms. Are you worried about your physical safety, is that what you are trying to say?
I4:I don’t know.
Ms. If you are, that’s fine.
I4: I really don’t know, I really don’t know.
Ms.: Okay. Let’s get back to, um some more details that you can tell us.
I4: Okay, okay.
Unknown: I want to make it very clear to you though, we aren’t going to talk. We aren’t going to say we spoke with [redacted], I’m sorry.
The only thing are people that actually go to the news. So we have a whole list of people that no one knows about because we don’t tell them. So we want you to feel confident that you speak with someone today, that it stays with us. Does that make sense?
Ms.: What you hear on the news from a federal agent or the FBI, it didn’t come from us. So if that happens, or you hear rumors, call us and find out because it may just be rumors. We are not going to go to the news ever, all right?
Ms.: So if you start hearing rumors, and you start thinking something’s up, call and find out because I’m telling you right now we’re not going to go to the news.
I4: Okay, all right.
Ms.: Okay. So we were talking about this, um, the arms exchange. You are watching this from your window, is that right?
[ . . . ]
Ms.: So what [redacted] is saying, we really aren’t going to go and tell anybody that you gave us this information or that we spoke to you because when we do our investigations, we want to find out what happened. and the only way to find out what happened is if people feel that they can truly just kind of open up and let it out.
Ms.: If we end up saying oh, so and so said this, what do you think about that?
Ms.: It kind of doesn’t it, it doesn’t, it muddies the water a little bit.
I4: Yeah, yeah.
Ms.: We talked about what you know and we want you to, we really want to show you that we’re never going to go to another person and say hey, [redacted] told us this or that. It is kind of like, yes, you gave interviews before, and yeah, you were on TV, but in here, this is totally separate and apart.
Ms.: This is your opportunity to kind of lay it out. I know that you are concerned about, I think you said you saw some websites about snitches and so forth.
Ms.: And so is that from concern from the community?
I4: Uh, yeah, it could be anywhere, you know, it could be anywhere. It could just be anywhere, so I’m not even sure, you know.
Ms.: We get it. This has caused a lot of people to take sides and so forth, and we just want to figure out what happened.
Ms.: We really do.
Ms.: We want to know and what they saw.
Ms.: We are not going to say oh, you know, we got your information from because you know, nobody is going to find out.
Unknown: [redacted] is there something specific that you don’t want to tell us?
I4: Uh, no.
Unknown: Because I’m concerned that you might have been directly threatened or there is people, because you keep looking down when you talk about it.
I4: I mean, everything I’m just, nervous.
Unknown: That’s okay.
I4: I’m not comfortable, I’m just like after this, you know, uh, I think of stuff like that. I said like, you know, everything that I’ve done and like I said, I go to work, I go to the store and little kids they recognize me and a lot of people, if I get paid a nickel every time I hear the word superstar, you know, I would be rich or whatever. I didn’t know, it is just—
Unknown: You know you’re not in trouble to feel this way, you are not in this alone. You know, you know, you see the news, there is other people too that they do know the position that you are in.
And I know it is a lot different talking when the cameras are rolling and then talking to us. Because you understand that there’s the lives are affected by, specifically Michael Brown’s parents and also the lives of the officer and Ferguson police officers. So we absolutely 100 percent, I know you are a good person, you have a family.
I4: Yes, I do.
Unknown: That you are concerned with, so if there is something more going on, if you want to explain, I suspect that there is, we need to do that, okay?
Unknown: Do you trust us?
I4: Yeah, I trust you.
[ . . . ]
Ms.: Is there anything else? You seem hesitant, that’s why I keep asking you.
I4: Um, I mean, since, since, you know, I received the call, you know, about, you know, come down to the FBI or whatever, I’ve been, you know, I can’t wait to get down there, you know, I need to tell you how I feel. You know, what’s going on, it is just me, do I need to keep doing what I’m doing, go to work, you know, take care of your family, you’re doing, you’re fine. Okay, so I don’t know if I need to be told that, you know, or if I really need some help, you know. It is really, really bothering me.
Like all the way it has been over a month now, I haven’t ate good, you know.
I just checked my weight today, and I lost some pounds.
I4: At the time that I checked it was like 160, 165. I checked it today, it was like 152.
I4: I’ve been eating like horrible, like once a day, like mostly like at nighttime. You know, so the whole day I eat little snacks, I’m not getting full like, you know, everybody supposed to eat good full like two or three times a day at least, but I’m not eating much, not getting as good of sleep.
Unknown: What’s on your mind.
I4: I mean, I don’t know jut, um, maybe just what if what I already did with the reporters and, you know, I be thinking like somebody is looking for me, maybe. You know, I just have weird feelings.
Unknown: What type of persons, what do you think that you did wrong?
I4: I mean, just the point, um, I did quite a few interviews and I don’t think I only know there’s a few witnesses. I think I just notice—
Unknown: There is only a few witnesses that went to the media, there is a big difference between only a few witnesses.
I4: Okay. I don’t think they didn’t do as many as I did.
I4: But like I said, I don’t know if I’m just worried, by me doing that I just immediately felt so worried since then and not having a lawyer and seeing that on the internet.
Ms.: Are you worried about being called a snitch?
I4: No, I’m not worried about that. I’m hoping, I don’t want nothing happening to me, you know. Maybe if my information is really good enough or whatever, and you know, I don’t want nobody coming looking for me because I have good information, whatever the case.
I4: I have a weird felling.
Ms.: Well, I tell you this, first of all, and I know if you feel like your personal safety is endanger [sic], you need to call 911, but you have my name.
Unknown: Okay. If you get any threats or anything you call me. That is the main office number, you can talk to anyone.
It seems strange, indeed, that any people claiming to be interested simply in “justice,” would go to such efforts to intimidate and suppress the free and honest communication of eye witnesses with the law enforcement officers assigned to investigate a purported act of malfeasance.
As promised, here’s the full-length PDF of the official transcript of this interview:
NEW! The Law of Self Defense proudly announces the launch of it’s online state-specific Law of Self Defense Webinars. These are interactive, online versions of the authoritative 5-hour-long state-specific Law of Self Defense Seminars that we give all over the country, but from the convenience of your laptop, tablet, or smartphone, and on your own schedule. Click over for more information on our state-specific Law of Self Defense Webinars, and get access to the ~20 minute Section 1. Introduction for free.
Andrew F. Branca is an MA lawyer and the author of the seminal book “The Law of Self Defense, 2nd Edition,” available at the Law of Self Defense blog (autographed copies available) and Amazon.com (paperback and Kindle). He also holds Law of Self Defense Seminars around the country, and provides free online self-defense law video lectures at the Law of Self Defense Institute and podcasts through iTunes, Stitcher, and elsewhere.
Donations tax deductible
to the full extent allowed by law.
November 25 post from Conservative Treehouse:
First Pro-Truth Witness Murdered? Or, Just Trying To Get To Dorian? DeAndre Joshua, 20, found dead yards from scene of Michael Brown’s death.
“DeAndre Joshua, 20, fits the social profile of an eye-witness who gave a police/FBI statement and testified before the Grand Jury in the Mike Brown shooting case.”
“Residents on Canfield Drive said that DeAndre Joshua, 20, was shot whilst in his car though police at the scene refused to confirm any details.”
Recent comments on this 3-day old post have been side-tracked a different issue, and you might want to go back a page into the comments thread to read what people were writing when the post was fresh.
Conservative Treehouse has not updated this post or written a follow-up post to confirm that DeAndre was a witness, but they seem to believe he was. Grain of salt …
Mountain of Morton’s.
That blog is EXTREMELY dubious, and should never be used as a source without drilling down into what they claim.
That’s why I ended my comment with “grain of salt” and noted the lack of follow-up posts that confirm or deny the claim. The claim, if true, is pertinent to this post on witness intimidation in Ferguson, and it is new enough to still be mere speculation. I haven’t seen this story on other blogs I read, which to me means that it has not been substantiated or even sparked much attention. I trust that someone in the LI readership always knows more than the average bear, so the absence of comment here about the murder of a possible witness means that additional evidence, supporting claims, or proof of error are just not being discussed.
What is the origin of the term “Mountain of Morton’s”? I googled it and found just two links, neither of which explained the term. Clearly it refers to skepticism, but what is the story behind the term? Something Biblical?
Morton’s…the only name branded salt.
“When it rains, it pours”. Sorry if it was obscure.
Oh, that makes sense. Maybe it was a bit obscure, but I just wasn’t thinking along the right lines. I was scouring the section of my brain that sorts things like Occam’s razor, sword of Damocles, Achilles and his heel, and Biblical allegories. Since google only found two uses of the expression, it must be a rare one.
This is what bothers me about the DA releasing all of these witness recordings and interviews. The words they use and/or the details given can all be tracked down to one or maybe a couple of people. I’m just worried that these rioters aren’t going to stop until they’ve identified the people that truthfully testified.
This is a person that got murdered during the riots, and the question, “Was he one of the witness,” is an obvious one. Of course it should be asked.
Yesterday I had lunch with a lawyer/lobbyist and his law school son, both ardent Democrats. Their view of the grand jury and the transcript were extremely negative. I will just cover one point. The transcript is supposed to show the jurors being badly instructed as to the effect of SCOTUS rulings as they relate to this matter. Essentially, in this case the rulings didn’t have much effect (my words).
I am not a lawyer and I didn’t spend the night in a Holiday Inn. However, I read up on some of the self defense requirements for both Missouri and SCOTUS, and it looks too me as if the evidence shows Wilson met the burden for even the SCOTUS police limitations.
SCOTUS rulings re: police use of force (I assume you’re referencing Garner) are irrelevant in a straightforward self-defense shooting.
Your lawyer friends are either ignorant are deliberately intending to mislead.
Either way, there’s likely better friends out there to be found. 🙂
Thanks for your comments. They were not friends of mine. My wife and I had the misfortune to be stuck with them for lunch. And yes, it did cross my mind that they were being deceptive.
A commenter on CTH, John Gault, starts his comment with: “African Americans face a bleak future.” and then goes onto explain his reasons for believing it.
I was saddened to realize the truth of that statement, for so many reasons beyond those stated. The democrats have did a huge disservice to the black race in America, a terrible baby was born, but the blacks themselves held/hold the receiving blanket.
tried so hard to work out how to express my thoughts and feelings above that my comment seems almost illiterate, sorry.
That’s OK. Most of us know what you meant and appreciate, even agree with, your sentiments.
gee, its almost like the black community has become a criminal enterprise … protecting thugs like Brown against the cops …
I would separate “the black community” into the gang types, the working class adult type, and many others that just want that free Obamaphone, but don’t support the crime.
The majority of blacks vote Democrat, but I don’t think most want the crime and violence in their neighborhoods. Cops can make headway on getting to know individuals in these neighborhoods, but a few thugs can threaten a lot of people.
And then there are the good working class that won’t trust a Republican ever, due to the hate spewed by Democrats and Obama types for decades. Making Trayvon and Brown national heroes doesn’t help break that narrative.
That MAY be one of the silliest things I’ve seen in a while.
This is how criminals…organized on even the most basic level…operate.
White, black, brown, yellow, whatever. They use intimidation as a fundamental part of their operations.
It doesn’t matter where they come from or their skin color, this is just organic to what they do. Consider how open and notorious a lot of organized crime is. They don’t even try hard to hide their work in many cases, because they don’t fear “detection” since they know they have to be successfully prosecuted to suffer any consequence, and that will require witnesses. Witnesses can be intimidated or simply killed.
When you have a strong “in-group” bond, as did the Italian, Irish, Jewish, Russian, etc. communities, you have a particularly ripe situation for criminals to exploit.
See, there’s no such thing as a “black community”. There are only individual people.
It’s well to reflect on the ‘community organizers’ who were so helpful in assembling and training and indoctrinating the foot soldiers whose ‘peaceful protests’ wreaking havoc on Ferguson while the National Guard stood apart on Monday night.
Many of said organizers were financed and arrived from out of town. It’s no stretch to observe that they’re part of a nationwide movement supporting the libel which declares white Americans universally racist, and which is eager for any dramatic action which their media allies relentlessly place on TV. Such as the Ferguson mob actions.
It’s a certainty that the media will be chewing and spewing on the Ferguson grand jury for weeks, and that some testimony now made public contradicts the narrative of white cop shoots innocent black gentle giant. In light of that nationwide movement, that narrative must be supported for maximum effect on public opinion.
So why wouldn’t the organizers drop a few hints to the locals that those providing such testimony hurt the cause, and that reports of conspicuous mayhem to them would ‘encourage the others’ not to testify when future riots are organized?
Don’t forget the civil rights people sent in from the DOJ.
#Ferguson is the natural result when the cause is greater than the truth.
I feel I should add something to this conversation, but in such a way that anyone could understand.
First, let me say that I am not a racist – but I am a realist. My background is different than most men my age (65+). Six years in the military during the Vietnam Era, several years of college w/o a degree, over a decade working for an international telecommunications business and then even longer choosing to live in homeless shelters across the United States working side-by-side every type of men imaginable: both good and bad.
Next, Mike Brown received the rewards of his actions – perhaps his ‘destiny’ for those who believe in such things. How was his life going to end in any other manner? Do I feel sorrow for him or his family? NO; emphatically NO! If anything I feel a deep sense of anger at his parents (especially his mother), his culture and his so-called friends who spew foolishness that he was the ‘gentle giant’. That man earned his paycheck, paid in slug, which was in accord with his actions. In any 3rd world hell hole around the world, Mike Brown would have been considered a man and probably a militia member in Africa – since his friends lean so heavily on his African heritage.
Does anyone wonder why in Africa, or the Balkans, or Asia there are ‘good’ men who work hard every day of the week – and then there are men like Mike Brown? When those evil men die, nobody wrings their hands and wonder why – good people rejoice; another monster dead!
Society keeps beating up on itself, wondering about justice. Mike Brown received his justice long before any legal eagles sat down to investigate. If anything, there are probably another few dozen people in Ferguson who should receive the same type of justice, especially after they burned the towns businesses down. What does the criminal mindset have to offer to our society? Why should we, as a society, actively support people like Mike Brown? People bemoan the fact that Africans were slaves here in America 140 years ago, but never consider the fact that slavery has been with humanity from the very beginning. America and Western societies are free of slavery while much of the rest of the world still considers it OK to hold a man in bondage – but there is still turmoil in our country because of our past. Instead of seeing the ‘glass half-full’, people make a conscious decision to see it half-empty….and seek the rewards of sympathy from that point of view. This is especially true of Mike Browns culture.
I have worked shoulder to shoulder with men from Africa, illegals from Mexico and Central America, immigrants from Cuba and the Balkans – almost all were good men, regardless of their legal status. They just wanted to work hard and get on with their lives. Courteous, hard working, dependable – any blue collar family would consider them an asset to their neighborhood. These were men who owned almost nothing, living in homeless shelters. Then there were thugs from the African American community… Always causing a turmoil and then playing the ‘race card’. No. Brown received justice. Case closed. NEXT!
C. Lashown, when hitting reply I got the down rating my mistake. Rest assured I very much agree with your assessment.
I am close to your age and was entrepreneur and then spent a great deal of time in the beltway, as in decades. I have known good and bad people from both parties. While in DC I would often see panhandlers. I never gave them cash, but I did invite quite a few to have lunch or dinner when time permitted.
Most turned the offer down, but of those who accepted, many were very interesting people and most were veterans.
In any event, I am sure that the group known as the Scheme Team and their associates are conducting a criminal conspiracy. There is no doubt that their actions are violating other people’s civil rights and I suspect that a RICO case could be made against them.
It is long past time that their wings are clipped.